WEBVTT 00:01.466 --> 00:02.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FEMALE NARRTOR] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 00:02.600 --> 00:04.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is provided in part by 00:04.533 --> 00:08.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, 00:08.633 --> 00:10.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart, 00:10.300 --> 00:14.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and by Laura and John Beckworth, Hobby Family Foundation. 00:16.200 --> 00:17.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith. 00:17.466 --> 00:19.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% His acclaimed novels include 00:19.300 --> 00:20.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "The Things They Carried," 00:20.500 --> 00:21.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "July, July" 00:21.466 --> 00:23.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and "Going After Cacciato," 00:23.100 --> 00:27.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which won the National Book Award in fiction 40 years ago. 00:27.000 --> 00:30.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% His memoir, "Dad's Maybe Book" has just been published. 00:30.633 --> 00:33.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's Tim O'Brien, this is Overheard. 00:34.433 --> 00:35.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Let's be honest, 00:35.700 --> 00:37.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is this about the ability to learn 00:37.466 --> 00:39.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or is this about the experience 00:39.033 --> 00:40.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of not having been taught properly? 00:40.600 --> 00:43.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% How have you avoided what has befallen other nations 00:43.300 --> 00:44.566 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in Africa and... 00:44.566 --> 00:45.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You could say that he made his own bed, 00:45.833 --> 00:47.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but you caused him to sleep in it. 00:47.100 --> 00:50.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, you saw a problem and over time, 00:50.133 --> 00:51.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% took it on and... 00:51.700 --> 00:54.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 00:54.166 --> 00:55.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Are you gonna run for President? 00:55.466 --> 00:57.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think I just got an F from you, actually. 00:57.933 --> 00:58.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is Overheard. 00:58.933 --> 01:03.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience applauding) 01:04.833 --> 01:06.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Tim O'Brien, welcome. 01:06.366 --> 01:07.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [TIM O'BRIEN] Great pleasure, thank you. 01:07.300 --> 01:08.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Good to see you again. 01:08.100 --> 01:09.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] You too. 01:09.333 --> 01:13.966 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [SMITH] This book, I was so moved by this book, 01:15.166 --> 01:18.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is called "Dad's Maybe Book," because? 01:18.733 --> 01:22.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Well, because for 17 years, 01:22.133 --> 01:24.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it was a maybe book. 01:24.866 --> 01:26.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Didn't know that it would actually get done, right? 01:26.633 --> 01:28.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] I wasn't sure I was even writing a book, Evan. 01:28.633 --> 01:31.733 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% I began the book as a little 01:31.733 --> 01:33.800 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% two page love letter 01:33.800 --> 01:35.833 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% to my kids. 01:35.833 --> 01:39.366 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% I'm an older father, or you can subtract the -er. 01:39.366 --> 01:40.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'm an old father. 01:40.666 --> 01:42.000 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 01:42.000 --> 01:44.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% First son born at 58. 01:44.066 --> 01:46.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] 56, I think. 01:46.033 --> 01:47.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I could be wrong. 01:47.833 --> 01:49.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 01:49.033 --> 01:50.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] I was trying to do the math 01:50.000 --> 01:51.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% at various points in this 01:51.500 --> 01:52.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I just stopped 'cause I went into journalism 01:52.733 --> 01:54.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% not to do math so I thought, "Don't do it." 01:54.366 --> 01:56.066 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% But, mid-50s. 01:56.066 --> 01:57.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Late to mid. [SMITH] Late to mid fifties. 01:57.900 --> 01:59.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Somewhere in there. 01:59.266 --> 02:00.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] And you're in your mid-70s now. 02:00.900 --> 02:03.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Right, and I wanted to leave behind for my kids 02:03.533 --> 02:06.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what I wish my own father had left for me. 02:06.200 --> 02:10.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Some messages that I could pick up 02:10.433 --> 02:12.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as a middle age or older guy 02:12.333 --> 02:16.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and read something that my dad had left for me, 02:16.233 --> 02:19.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% maybe a message of love or of instruction. 02:19.433 --> 02:20.366 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 02:20.366 --> 02:21.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] An admonishment. 02:21.733 --> 02:24.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And as an older father, 02:24.300 --> 02:27.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I felt that squeeze of mortality 02:27.400 --> 02:30.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that I'd felt years before in Vietnam. 02:30.966 --> 02:33.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the book was written not to be a book, at first, 02:33.966 --> 02:35.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% just for the kids. 02:35.233 --> 02:38.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And gradually pages accumulated. 02:38.366 --> 02:42.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And, my wife and my children 02:42.500 --> 02:44.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% would talk about this. 02:44.166 --> 02:47.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And at one point, my younger kid, his name is Tad, 02:47.733 --> 02:49.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% suggested, you know, 02:49.533 --> 02:51.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he said to me, "Will this ever really be a book?" 02:51.566 --> 02:55.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I said, "Well, sometimes they end up in trashcans." 02:55.900 --> 03:00.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Sometimes, as many of mine have, just thrown away. 03:00.133 --> 03:01.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So I said "Maybe." 03:01.400 --> 03:03.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he said, "Well, call it what it is. 03:03.100 --> 03:04.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "Call it your maybe book." 03:04.633 --> 03:06.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He said, "Tell the truth for a change." 03:06.633 --> 03:08.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Right, yeah. 03:08.133 --> 03:10.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Because I've been writing novels all this time. 03:10.133 --> 03:11.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Well, that's right, it's truth in advertising. 03:11.833 --> 03:13.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It was your maybe book, 03:13.366 --> 03:16.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but it actually turned out to be an actual thing. 03:16.400 --> 03:17.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It is as you describe it. 03:17.866 --> 03:22.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It is a series of short and longer letters, almost, 03:22.433 --> 03:24.033 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in chapter form 03:24.033 --> 03:26.600 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% to your sons who are now how old? 03:26.600 --> 03:27.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] 16 and 14. 03:27.900 --> 03:29.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] 16 and 14. 03:29.366 --> 03:31.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But as you say, you started out as an older father, 03:31.500 --> 03:34.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% conscious of the fact that as they got older, 03:34.333 --> 03:35.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the way these things work, 03:35.766 --> 03:37.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you're gonna get older. 03:37.000 --> 03:39.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And when they hit an age where it would be time 03:39.500 --> 03:42.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for them to really get to know you as a person, 03:42.400 --> 03:44.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you would hopefully still be with them, 03:44.300 --> 03:46.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but at least would be much older 03:46.433 --> 03:50.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and probably a good idea to commit this stuff to paper now 03:50.233 --> 03:51.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% for all time. 03:51.400 --> 03:53.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Yeah, there's a line in the book 03:53.433 --> 03:56.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that when my children get to know me 03:56.566 --> 03:58.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% they will know an old man. 03:58.066 --> 03:59.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] They'll know an old man, right. 03:59.833 --> 04:01.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] And they're there now, in a way. 04:01.766 --> 04:04.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm 73 today, it's my birthday. 04:04.933 --> 04:06.500 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% [SMITH] Today's your birthday, as we sit here. 04:06.500 --> 04:08.833 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% (audience applauding) 04:08.833 --> 04:12.866 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% Actually, if you look in that cup, there's cake, actually. 04:12.866 --> 04:13.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] I thought this was rum. 04:13.866 --> 04:16.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] It seemed kind of lumpy. 04:16.400 --> 04:17.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Happy birthday to you. 04:17.366 --> 04:18.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Thank you, thank you. 04:18.300 --> 04:19.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Happy birthday to you. 04:19.666 --> 04:22.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] It's like celebrating a hernia, however. 04:22.066 --> 04:23.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Being that age? 04:23.300 --> 04:25.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] You get to be that old. 04:25.666 --> 04:28.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] But you know, the idea of having kids at that age, 04:28.766 --> 04:29.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the age that you did, 04:29.600 --> 04:31.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is still unusual, 04:31.133 --> 04:33.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% people still have kids at a much earlier age, 04:33.733 --> 04:35.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but you live in a city, Austin, Texas, 04:35.966 --> 04:39.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that is like the Peoples Republic of Peter Pan Syndrome. 04:39.000 --> 04:40.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] It is, yes. 04:40.533 --> 04:42.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] I mean, this is not the most unusual phenomemon 04:42.033 --> 04:43.233 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% where you live, 04:43.233 --> 04:44.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but in most places, 04:44.466 --> 04:45.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% deciding to have a kid at that age, 04:45.566 --> 04:47.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there are grandparents at your age. 04:47.866 --> 04:48.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Oh, I know. 04:48.833 --> 04:53.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% All of my own children's friends 04:53.500 --> 04:55.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% have parents who are at least 04:55.200 --> 04:57.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a full generation younger than I am. 04:57.200 --> 04:59.600 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% All of them. 04:59.600 --> 05:01.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There may be one exception, 05:01.333 --> 05:03.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who in fact, might be in this room right now with us, 05:03.666 --> 05:07.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but aside from that person. 05:07.100 --> 05:11.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So they're conscious of my gray hair and my hearing problems 05:11.633 --> 05:13.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to the point at which, 05:13.333 --> 05:15.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% maybe five years ago 05:15.166 --> 05:19.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when he was nine or so, ten, 05:19.366 --> 05:22.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% my older son, Timmy, 05:22.000 --> 05:25.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% began coming crying to me at night 05:25.133 --> 05:28.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% saying, "You're old and you're gonna die." 05:28.533 --> 05:30.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I mean really crying. 05:30.633 --> 05:31.566 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 05:31.566 --> 05:32.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Night after night, 05:32.800 --> 05:34.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he couldn't get it out of his head. 05:34.733 --> 05:37.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I couldn't lie to him. 05:37.833 --> 05:42.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The best I could do was say, "Yeah, I know," 05:42.666 --> 05:45.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and not much beyond that. 05:45.733 --> 05:46.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And the book, in a way, 05:46.933 --> 05:48.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is a way of dealing with something, 05:48.866 --> 05:52.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which on the surface may seem morbid to people, 05:52.000 --> 05:56.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% consciousness of the finality of our own lives, 05:56.533 --> 05:59.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but to me it's not in the least morbid. 05:59.500 --> 06:04.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's part of the human experience, life and death. 06:05.233 --> 06:08.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And there's a certain 06:08.033 --> 06:13.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% wisdom and excitement 06:13.000 --> 06:16.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that comes with being a father at my age. 06:16.233 --> 06:19.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I doubt that at 39 or 29, 06:19.633 --> 06:22.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I would have been so utterly devoted to my children, 06:22.733 --> 06:26.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that I would give up writing books for 17 years. 06:26.766 --> 06:28.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Because, in fact, the last book you published, 06:28.600 --> 06:30.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that's an excellent point, 06:30.033 --> 06:32.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the last book you published, "July, July" is 2002. 06:32.100 --> 06:33.333 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [O'BRIEN] Yeah. 06:33.333 --> 06:34.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] It has been literally 17 years 06:34.266 --> 06:35.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% since you published a book, 06:35.766 --> 06:37.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and you're someone who has had an extraordinary career, 06:37.000 --> 06:37.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% your books have been bestsellers, 06:37.900 --> 06:39.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% they've won awards, 06:39.033 --> 06:40.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you've been revered, correctly, 06:40.900 --> 06:43.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% by people inside and outside of book publishing. 06:43.166 --> 06:46.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And yet for 17 years, no Tim O'Brien books 06:46.666 --> 06:48.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because you wanted to be a dad. 06:48.500 --> 06:50.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You made a decision. 06:50.000 --> 06:53.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] I made a choice that you cannot be a good father, 06:53.466 --> 06:55.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the chief requirement of being a good father 06:55.266 --> 06:56.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is to be present. 06:56.733 --> 06:59.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You can't do anything else without being there. 06:59.333 --> 07:02.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And as a writer who would squirrel himself away 07:02.333 --> 07:04.500 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in a room for 07:04.500 --> 07:08.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% 12, 15 hours a day writing, 07:08.500 --> 07:11.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then when I come out of that room 07:11.233 --> 07:13.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% full of all the stresses that a writer feels. 07:13.800 --> 07:16.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Is the book any good? Will people like it? 07:16.433 --> 07:20.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Will I like it? The characters going through your head, 07:20.033 --> 07:21.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you're not wholly present. 07:21.533 --> 07:24.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] You're no longer working, but you're working. 07:24.166 --> 07:25.133 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% [O'BRIEN] You're still working. 07:25.133 --> 07:25.966 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% [SMITH] You're still working. 07:25.966 --> 07:28.700 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [O'BRIEN] And I just, 07:28.700 --> 07:30.900 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% I can't be a father again. 07:30.900 --> 07:32.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] You made a choice and you knew 07:32.333 --> 07:33.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that you were never gonna get that time back. 07:33.866 --> 07:35.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Yeah, and the time will not be returned to me. 07:35.633 --> 07:37.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Can I tell you something? 07:37.166 --> 07:41.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% As a person who had a kid a little earlier than you, 07:41.266 --> 07:43.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% first child born at 30, 07:43.300 --> 07:46.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% second child born at 34. 07:46.600 --> 07:48.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I was comforted to see that you didn't know 07:48.633 --> 07:51.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a hell of a lot more about being a parent at your age 07:51.733 --> 07:53.200 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% than I did. 07:53.200 --> 07:55.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I thought that the problem was, you know, youth, 07:55.200 --> 07:56.133 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% was the problem. 07:56.133 --> 07:57.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% No, it's hard to be a parent 07:57.366 --> 07:59.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whether you're 30 or whether you're 56. 07:59.166 --> 08:00.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Of course. 08:00.166 --> 08:00.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Whatever it is, right? 08:00.966 --> 08:02.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Of course. 08:02.233 --> 08:04.166 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [SMITH] It is a mystery, parenthood is a mystery. 08:04.166 --> 08:06.266 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% Maybe you never solve the mystery of parenthood, 08:06.266 --> 08:07.700 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% but you're no better prepared to solve it 08:07.700 --> 08:08.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% at 56 than you are at 30. 08:08.833 --> 08:10.066 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [O'BRIEN] No. 08:10.066 --> 08:12.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] So this book is about you, 08:12.233 --> 08:14.233 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and this book is also about them. 08:14.233 --> 08:15.700 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [O'BRIEN] Yes. 08:15.700 --> 08:17.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] But this book is also about two other things. 08:17.533 --> 08:19.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's about your own father, 08:19.766 --> 08:22.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and invariably because everything you write 08:22.766 --> 08:26.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% is about Vietnam and the experience of having been at war, 08:26.333 --> 08:27.500 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% it's about that. 08:27.500 --> 08:29.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Now, it is not fiction, it's non-fiction. 08:29.933 --> 08:31.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Your other books are novels. 08:31.366 --> 08:33.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I wanna come to the Vietnam thing in a second, 08:33.066 --> 08:34.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but I really want you to talk about your dad 08:34.933 --> 08:37.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because your dad is a very present character in this book, 08:37.700 --> 08:39.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% even though, as you say, 08:39.400 --> 08:41.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you wanted to turn the page from your own experience 08:41.533 --> 08:43.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and have a different experience with your own kids. 08:43.900 --> 08:45.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But I want you to talk about your dad 08:45.266 --> 08:46.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because I think your dad really does 08:46.333 --> 08:47.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% jump off the page in this book. 08:47.633 --> 08:50.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Well, I can summarize it quickly. 08:50.233 --> 08:52.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I idolized my father. 08:52.033 --> 08:56.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was fun to be with, he was funny, 08:56.066 --> 08:59.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he loved to read. 08:59.166 --> 09:03.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Children loved him, he loved children. 09:03.033 --> 09:07.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But he was an alcoholic, and a bad one. 09:07.700 --> 09:11.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was institutionalized twice in my childhood, 09:11.333 --> 09:15.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% so he was absent from the house for long swaths of time. 09:15.033 --> 09:15.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Physically absent. 09:15.966 --> 09:17.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Physically absent, 09:17.666 --> 09:19.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and when he was present, 09:19.700 --> 09:21.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% he was present 09:21.466 --> 09:25.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with friend vodka going through his veins. 09:25.966 --> 09:27.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It was chemistry. 09:27.766 --> 09:30.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He was not a bad man. 09:30.166 --> 09:33.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And in most ways, when sober, 09:33.233 --> 09:34.433 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% a great guy 09:34.433 --> 09:38.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to have as a father. 09:38.566 --> 09:42.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'll never know if he even liked me, 09:42.333 --> 09:43.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% much less loved me. 09:43.733 --> 09:46.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I suspect he-- 09:46.100 --> 09:51.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% If he did love me, his love was utterly silent. 09:51.066 --> 09:54.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And the impression I got 09:54.766 --> 09:56.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as an eight, nine, ten, 09:56.500 --> 10:00.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% twelve year-old kid growing up, 10:00.266 --> 10:02.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% was he didn't like me very much, 10:02.433 --> 10:04.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% constantly finding fault 10:04.866 --> 10:08.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with how I looked, the things I did, 10:08.533 --> 10:13.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% how straight I could throw a baseball, things like that. 10:13.400 --> 10:16.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% This is, I was-- 10:16.466 --> 10:17.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I was afraid of him, 10:17.966 --> 10:22.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that I remember setting up an alarm system in my bedroom, 10:22.666 --> 10:24.466 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% two little bells and some string, 10:24.466 --> 10:28.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so if the door opened I'd be awakened. 10:28.566 --> 10:31.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I remember going up into the kitchen 10:31.333 --> 10:34.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and taking all the sharpest knives out of the drawers 10:34.100 --> 10:36.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and hiding them in my room 10:36.966 --> 10:38.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because when he did drink, 10:38.833 --> 10:40.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it was a dangerous household. 10:40.666 --> 10:42.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The tensions were terrible. 10:42.766 --> 10:44.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And it didn't really end 10:44.733 --> 10:48.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% until many decades later 10:48.733 --> 10:50.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when he finally got too old to drink. 10:50.866 --> 10:53.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He just couldn't. 10:53.266 --> 10:57.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% At which point we did make a kind of peace. 10:57.166 --> 10:59.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He moved here to Texas, to San Antonio, 10:59.966 --> 11:02.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to a retirement home with my mom, 11:02.933 --> 11:07.933 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and a kind of 11:07.933 --> 11:09.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% strange peace settled in. 11:09.900 --> 11:12.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It wasn't father son talk, 11:12.300 --> 11:14.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it was just the absence of something 11:14.266 --> 11:16.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which was the absence of tension. 11:16.033 --> 11:17.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Yeah, it's amazing. 11:17.900 --> 11:20.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And it's again, so vivid now, 11:20.566 --> 11:22.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% thinking about as you've described it, 11:22.000 --> 11:24.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and part of that I think may be 11:24.133 --> 11:26.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% his generation was just a different generation. 11:26.533 --> 11:27.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] It was. 11:27.466 --> 11:28.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] To look at the world 11:28.566 --> 11:30.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the responsibilities of parenting, 11:30.000 --> 11:31.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the relationship with the younger generation differently, 11:31.433 --> 11:35.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but he sounds like, as well, a singular character. 11:35.333 --> 11:36.833 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Very specific. 11:36.833 --> 11:39.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And again, your exercise as you chronicle it here, 11:39.700 --> 11:41.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of being a good parent, 11:41.133 --> 11:43.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is necessarily a reaction as much to that-- 11:43.966 --> 11:44.933 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [O'BRIEN] It is. 11:44.933 --> 11:46.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] --as it is to anything. 11:46.133 --> 11:47.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's just like elections are always 11:47.433 --> 11:49.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about the last year's then the next year's. 11:49.066 --> 11:51.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Parenting is in some ways about the last 11:51.866 --> 11:52.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as much as it is about the next. 11:52.766 --> 11:54.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Very true. 11:54.466 --> 11:58.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And oddly, even my experience as a soldier in Vietnam, 11:58.266 --> 12:00.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which I know you're going to move to, 12:00.500 --> 12:01.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is related to my dad. 12:01.766 --> 12:03.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He had been a sailor during World War II, 12:03.700 --> 12:06.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he was at Iwo Jima, Okinawa, 12:06.366 --> 12:09.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I remember fondling his medals 12:09.933 --> 12:12.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which he kept in a little drawer under his socks 12:12.900 --> 12:14.500 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in his bureau. 12:19.066 --> 12:22.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I wanted to please my dad so badly. 12:22.666 --> 12:26.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And that fed into my ultimately 12:26.000 --> 12:28.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% saying "yes" to a war I despised. 12:28.366 --> 12:30.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Right, but as you correctly pointed out, 12:30.166 --> 12:34.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because you refer in here to the generation of, 12:34.700 --> 12:37.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or I should say I've heard you talk about, 12:37.300 --> 12:38.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't know if it's literally in this book 12:38.700 --> 12:40.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so much as what you've said, 12:40.666 --> 12:42.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you talk about the contemporary generation 12:42.866 --> 12:44.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of people who've just come back from 12:44.666 --> 12:46.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Iraq, Afghanistan, and all that, 12:46.366 --> 12:48.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the difference between them and you 12:48.700 --> 12:51.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is they made the decision. It was their choice to go. 12:51.766 --> 12:52.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Very much. 12:52.933 --> 12:55.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Your generation, people like you, 12:55.333 --> 12:57.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you went because that was what you had to do. 12:57.500 --> 12:59.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You had to go as opposed to you chose to go. 12:59.966 --> 13:01.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And that's a big difference. 13:01.866 --> 13:04.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] It's a big difference. 13:04.833 --> 13:07.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% In the Vietnam War, the wolf was at the door 13:07.133 --> 13:08.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% for all the families. 13:08.200 --> 13:11.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% The draft was there, 13:11.133 --> 13:13.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and all the families across America 13:13.600 --> 13:15.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% were in one way or another confronted 13:15.366 --> 13:17.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with personal, moral choice. 13:17.633 --> 13:20.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You had to put your body somewhere, 13:20.433 --> 13:22.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in a jail or in Canada, 13:22.666 --> 13:24.233 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% or in a war. 13:24.233 --> 13:26.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But you had to park it somewhere. 13:26.333 --> 13:29.966 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% And, as you say, the fundamental difference now 13:29.966 --> 13:32.700 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% is that wolf is only at the doors 13:32.700 --> 13:36.533 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% of those who voluntarily, 13:36.533 --> 13:41.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% whose sons or daughters voluntarily choose to go to a war. 13:41.433 --> 13:43.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] And we respect the decision 13:43.100 --> 13:45.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because it is not everybody who makes the choice 13:45.133 --> 13:48.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to sacrifice themself and their lives, 13:48.133 --> 13:49.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whether they come back changed or not. 13:49.800 --> 13:51.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Absolutely. 13:51.033 --> 13:51.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Who doesn't come back changed, right-- 13:51.833 --> 13:53.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - -for their country? 13:53.066 --> 13:54.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We respect the choice, but it is a choice. 13:54.500 --> 13:55.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] It is a choice. 13:55.733 --> 13:57.266 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [SMITH] It's a vastly different thing. 13:57.266 --> 14:00.466 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% So let's come back around to Vietnam in a second. 14:00.466 --> 14:05.400 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% By my estimation, this is your first real non-fiction book. 14:05.400 --> 14:06.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Since my very first. 14:06.966 --> 14:08.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Since the very, very first. 14:08.133 --> 14:09.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] The very first book when I was... 14:09.733 --> 14:11.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Which was a war memoir, right? 14:11.300 --> 14:13.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] It was a memoir of time at war. 14:13.533 --> 14:15.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] But every book has also been, 14:15.466 --> 14:16.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to one degree or another, 14:16.900 --> 14:18.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so straightforwardly or not, 14:18.533 --> 14:20.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it's been about Vietnam, it's been about the war. 14:20.833 --> 14:22.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Yeah, in one degree or another, 14:22.700 --> 14:26.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% maybe not Vietnam, per se. 14:26.666 --> 14:27.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] But the experience. 14:27.900 --> 14:31.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] The experience of being 21 years old 14:31.933 --> 14:34.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and maybe dying with your next step. 14:34.333 --> 14:38.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the experience of making moral choices, 14:38.300 --> 14:41.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% not just to go to a war but how do you behave in a war? 14:41.766 --> 14:43.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's easy to lose your moral gyroscope 14:43.900 --> 14:47.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when there's frenzy and death all around you. 14:49.333 --> 14:51.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] And Vietnam was a long time ago, at this point. 14:51.866 --> 14:54.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But as you say, I've heard you say many times, 14:54.600 --> 14:56.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% war goes on and on in memory. 14:56.333 --> 14:57.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] It does. 14:57.566 --> 14:59.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] It doesn't really ever end 14:59.066 --> 15:01.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as a reference point for you or as a backdrop for you. 15:01.400 --> 15:05.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] It doesn't, nor does it end for my children. 15:05.066 --> 15:06.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% They have to live with a father 15:06.633 --> 15:09.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who goes silent and goes sad, 15:09.766 --> 15:13.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whose memories it'll stare into space. 15:13.533 --> 15:16.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So we have to count among 15:16.366 --> 15:19.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% those who are influenced by wars 15:19.166 --> 15:21.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that go on and echo on through history. 15:21.600 --> 15:23.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% What about the mothers who have lost their children 15:23.966 --> 15:25.433 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in a war? 15:25.433 --> 15:29.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Wars don't end for them when you sign a peace treaty. 15:29.900 --> 15:31.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] And in some places, years after, right? 15:31.533 --> 15:33.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean years after-- [O'BRIEN] Years after. 15:33.300 --> 15:35.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] --a mother will have or someone will have, 15:35.300 --> 15:38.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a family member will have this moment of awareness. 15:38.800 --> 15:41.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Even to this day there is some 93-year-old woman 15:41.500 --> 15:44.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or 98-year-old woman down in Orlando, Florida 15:44.100 --> 15:45.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who wakes up at two in the morning 15:45.566 --> 15:47.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and says, "Where's my baby?" 15:47.266 --> 15:48.500 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 15:48.500 --> 15:49.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Her baby has been dead for 50 years. 15:49.733 --> 15:51.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] 50 years, right. 15:51.633 --> 15:52.866 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% [O'BRIEN] But it hasn't left her. 15:52.866 --> 15:56.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And it's so easy for Americans, 15:56.166 --> 15:59.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and for all of us, not just Americans, 15:59.133 --> 16:00.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% to forget 16:00.900 --> 16:04.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that when you sign a peace treaty, 16:04.766 --> 16:07.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the war doesn't stop in the heads 16:07.366 --> 16:08.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% not just of the soldiers 16:08.700 --> 16:12.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but of everyone who surrounds soldiers. 16:12.766 --> 16:15.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] You can look away but it's not over. 16:15.533 --> 16:18.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I was struck so much 16:18.833 --> 16:21.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% by your participation 16:21.200 --> 16:24.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the television series "This Is Us," 16:24.300 --> 16:25.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which in its third season, 16:25.900 --> 16:29.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% had a series of episodes related to the Vietnam experience 16:29.266 --> 16:34.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that you co-authored, you co-wrote those scripts. 16:34.000 --> 16:36.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And you incorporated aspects 16:36.066 --> 16:38.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of your own experience in Vietnam, 16:38.566 --> 16:40.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% into this storyline. 16:40.033 --> 16:41.533 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [O'BRIEN] I did. 16:41.533 --> 16:45.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] And it struck me again how it's never over. 16:45.700 --> 16:49.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's a constantly replenishing source of material. 16:49.733 --> 16:52.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's still very emotional. 16:52.133 --> 16:55.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I'm remembering something involving from that, 16:55.700 --> 16:57.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% help me flesh this out, 16:57.233 --> 16:59.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% something involving fishing with grenades. 16:59.533 --> 17:02.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Yeah, the incident that was recounted in 17:02.633 --> 17:03.500 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "This Is Us," 17:03.500 --> 17:04.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] In the series. 17:04.566 --> 17:06.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] --in the series, 17:06.400 --> 17:09.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% occurred in different form in my own experience. 17:09.666 --> 17:13.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We were encamped along the South China Sea. 17:13.566 --> 17:15.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Some of my fellow soldiers would go fishing. 17:15.900 --> 17:18.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They would get into these round boats, 17:18.533 --> 17:22.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about twice the size of this round table, 17:22.000 --> 17:23.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they'd push it out into the waves 17:23.733 --> 17:25.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then they were able to pole it out 17:25.900 --> 17:28.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% into the deeper water. 17:28.633 --> 17:31.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And they would go fishing not with hooks, 17:31.900 --> 17:33.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they fished with hand grenades. 17:33.266 --> 17:36.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They'd throw in hand grenades to blow the fish up. 17:36.200 --> 17:38.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was a kind of prankster fishing. 17:38.200 --> 17:39.133 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 17:39.133 --> 17:39.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] It wasn't fishing. 17:39.933 --> 17:41.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% They did it for fun. 17:41.433 --> 17:43.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You're 22 years old and you got a crate of hand grenades. 17:43.800 --> 17:45.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Let's have some fun. 17:45.900 --> 17:50.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But it turned unfunny on a July day in '69 17:50.766 --> 17:55.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when one of my friends was out in a boat, 17:55.333 --> 17:58.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the grenades had gotten wet, 17:58.266 --> 18:00.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and greasy-feeling, 18:00.966 --> 18:03.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and dropped one of them after pulling the pin, 18:03.000 --> 18:05.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and it fell into the boat, 18:05.066 --> 18:06.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and he was killed. 18:06.866 --> 18:10.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I and maybe eight other guys had to wade out there, 18:10.400 --> 18:14.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and pull what had essentially been, 18:16.000 --> 18:17.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it was basically mush. 18:17.600 --> 18:19.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was like pulling slush out of a boat. 18:19.366 --> 18:20.700 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Oh, God. 18:20.700 --> 18:23.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] A man who was not engaged, 18:23.266 --> 18:26.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he was in a war but he wasn't engaged in warfare. 18:26.633 --> 18:29.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was engaged in being a kid, basically. 18:31.500 --> 18:33.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It stuck with me, 18:33.133 --> 18:36.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% partly because it was such a terrible thing to look at, 18:36.666 --> 18:41.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but partly because I liked the guy, and all these years-- 18:41.500 --> 18:45.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so when "This Is Us" was looking for something 18:45.100 --> 18:49.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% really terrible that wasn't present 18:49.733 --> 18:53.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in every other Vietnam movie, 18:53.500 --> 18:57.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that was translated to the 18:57.033 --> 19:00.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% brother of a leading character 19:00.833 --> 19:02.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% dropping a grenade. 19:02.466 --> 19:06.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Only an American doesn't die, it's a little Vietnamese boy. 19:06.233 --> 19:08.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Kid, right, yeah. 19:08.366 --> 19:11.100 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% [O'BRIEN] And, I think it worked. 19:11.100 --> 19:13.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's tough on television to do what you can do 19:13.266 --> 19:15.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in full theatrical movies. 19:15.866 --> 19:17.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's hard to do it, 19:17.366 --> 19:20.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% partly because "This Is Us" is interrupted by commercials, 19:20.033 --> 19:23.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% unlike virtually every other show I watch. 19:23.633 --> 19:26.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But it's a well-written show and it's a serious show. 19:29.500 --> 19:33.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% When you say co-authored, yeah, I did, 19:33.666 --> 19:36.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but the real arbiter of what goes on the show 19:36.266 --> 19:39.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is its creator, as it should be, a guy named Dan Fogelman, 19:39.133 --> 19:41.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and he and I did it together. 19:41.433 --> 19:44.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I always deferred to him. 19:44.133 --> 19:45.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I get to leave the show. 19:45.366 --> 19:48.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't do it anymore, but he's still doing it. 19:48.433 --> 19:52.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] So, roll forward to what happens now. 19:52.133 --> 19:56.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Your kids are in the upper grades of school. 19:58.466 --> 19:59.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% World's a dangerous place. 20:00.133 --> 20:00.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Uh huh. 20:02.133 --> 20:03.400 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [SMITH] Would you send your kids off? 20:03.400 --> 20:04.933 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% Would you suggest, if your kids came to you 20:04.933 --> 20:07.266 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% and said we wanna follow in your footsteps 20:07.266 --> 20:08.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and your dad's footsteps, 20:08.700 --> 20:11.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and go off and serve, again by choice, 20:11.566 --> 20:13.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because presumably it will still be by choice. 20:13.833 --> 20:15.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Do you have any reservations about that 20:15.133 --> 20:17.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% beyond the obvious reservations as a parent 20:17.266 --> 20:19.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% not wanting to put their kids in harm's way? 20:20.600 --> 20:22.933 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Well, I don't have the problems 20:22.933 --> 20:24.800 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% that other parents might have. 20:24.800 --> 20:28.566 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% My children have lived with me now for 17 years, 20:28.566 --> 20:31.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or 16 years and 14 years, respectively. 20:31.600 --> 20:33.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% They know how I feel, 20:33.433 --> 20:34.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% they know I was a soldier, 20:34.600 --> 20:36.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% they know I didn't like it, 20:36.100 --> 20:39.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they know I didn't believe in the rectitude 20:39.700 --> 20:43.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of our war in Vietnam. 20:43.600 --> 20:47.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They know that I believe that a certain blood was shed, 20:47.566 --> 20:51.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 3 million Vietnamese, 60,000 Americans, 20:51.300 --> 20:52.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% for uncertain reasons. 20:52.866 --> 20:55.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The reasons were disputed 20:55.033 --> 20:59.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% through families and across America. 20:59.133 --> 21:00.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Ambiguity everywhere, 21:00.433 --> 21:04.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and so did my children understand this. 21:04.333 --> 21:06.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I did tell them one evening 21:06.033 --> 21:07.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I wrote about it in the book. 21:07.366 --> 21:09.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I said, "You know, just because I did something, 21:09.133 --> 21:11.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "doesn't mean you have to do it." 21:11.000 --> 21:12.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 21:12.266 --> 21:14.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] And Tad said, "You mean like smoking?" 21:14.333 --> 21:15.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 21:15.466 --> 21:17.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I said, "Yeah, great example." 21:17.400 --> 21:19.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] That's probably on the list, yeah. 21:19.233 --> 21:21.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] And Timmy said, "You mean like swearing?" 21:21.500 --> 21:24.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I said, "Yeah, that belongs on the list." 21:24.433 --> 21:26.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And I said to them, 21:26.700 --> 21:30.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "You know, if your dad were a bully, 21:30.233 --> 21:33.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "would you start beating up on teachers?" 21:33.200 --> 21:38.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And Tad said, "Well, not really, not like you." 21:38.133 --> 21:41.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Meaning, I've got a temper that came out of Vietnam 21:41.533 --> 21:45.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that I get outraged quickly and lose it, 21:45.033 --> 21:47.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that I didn't have prior to the war. 21:47.866 --> 21:49.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] And all these years later, 21:49.666 --> 21:50.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] It'll come out. 21:50.633 --> 21:51.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] It goes on and on. 21:51.600 --> 21:53.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Another example. 21:53.566 --> 21:57.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So they know how I feel. 21:57.933 --> 21:59.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% As a parent you can't tell a kid go to a war. 21:59.933 --> 22:01.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Right, but you understand, Tim, 22:01.666 --> 22:04.366 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% as much as it was that experience as you just described, 22:04.366 --> 22:06.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at the same time there's something really honorable 22:06.566 --> 22:08.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about putting yourself in that situation. 22:08.366 --> 22:10.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, you could understand where 22:10.566 --> 22:12.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% everything else that you've said, not withstanding, 22:12.233 --> 22:15.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they may say there's a lot of honor and dignity 22:15.633 --> 22:16.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in making that choice. 22:16.633 --> 22:18.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [O'BRIEN] There is. 22:18.100 --> 22:22.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, all human beings have to make our moral choices. 22:22.400 --> 22:25.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The children will be independent human beings. 22:25.333 --> 22:30.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I've done my best to give them my feelings 22:30.133 --> 22:31.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% about the world we live in. 22:31.933 --> 22:33.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't think you should kill people 22:33.433 --> 22:35.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% unless you're pretty sure it's the right thing to do. 22:35.333 --> 22:36.800 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 22:36.800 --> 22:39.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Vietnam, we weren't pretty sure as a country. 22:39.000 --> 22:40.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We were totally divided. 22:40.600 --> 22:42.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That's the kind of thing I can say to a kid 22:42.600 --> 22:43.533 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% but he has to-- 22:43.533 --> 22:44.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Make the choice himself. 22:44.466 --> 22:45.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] --make the choice. 22:45.666 --> 22:46.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] It's almost always confusing 22:46.900 --> 22:48.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whether it's the right thing or not, right? 22:48.033 --> 22:50.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So I wanna say as we wrap here, 22:50.033 --> 22:51.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I wanna talk about the end of this book. 22:51.433 --> 22:53.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So the last bit in this book 22:53.366 --> 22:58.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is effectively a letter to them 22:58.333 --> 22:59.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% many years in the future. 22:59.833 --> 23:01.366 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [O'BRIEN] Yes. 23:01.366 --> 23:03.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] After you are presumed to be long gone. 23:03.666 --> 23:05.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [O'BRIEN] Yeah, it's a letter-- 23:05.700 --> 23:07.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] It was the part that really got me. 23:07.200 --> 23:08.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It was the part that got me. 23:08.800 --> 23:13.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Good, got to me too, to write it. 23:13.633 --> 23:16.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's a letter to Timmy and Tad 23:16.333 --> 23:21.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that on my 100th birthday I asked them to do something. 23:21.333 --> 23:24.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I'll be dead by then. 23:24.833 --> 23:26.533 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Most likely. 23:26.533 --> 23:31.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And if I'm not, do it on my 110th birthday, but do it. 23:31.300 --> 23:33.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Go play a round of golf together, 23:33.866 --> 23:36.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% just not as golfers, 23:36.100 --> 23:40.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but for the quietude and the time together, 23:40.600 --> 23:42.333 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% the walking. 23:42.333 --> 23:46.566 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% And feel the joy 23:46.566 --> 23:47.800 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% of your feet 23:47.800 --> 23:49.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% treading on the ground beneath you 23:49.800 --> 23:53.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and feel your own 23:53.600 --> 23:55.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% trajectory through life, 23:55.233 --> 24:00.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which is short, as life is, 24:00.166 --> 24:02.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and often tenuous as life is. 24:02.200 --> 24:05.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Golf balls go astray, and so do people. 24:05.133 --> 24:07.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But feel that this is something 24:07.933 --> 24:09.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and pretend that I'm with you. 24:09.500 --> 24:12.700 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I won't be. 24:12.700 --> 24:14.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Have a couple of drinks afterwards, 24:14.766 --> 24:17.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and share a few stories about your youth, 24:17.133 --> 24:19.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% maybe even about me. 24:19.233 --> 24:23.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Although my memory by that point will be very faded, 24:23.366 --> 24:26.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% if they remember at all. 24:26.400 --> 24:28.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Much of my childhood has evaporated. 24:28.166 --> 24:30.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I don't remember much. 24:30.566 --> 24:34.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% But it's a way of 24:34.233 --> 24:36.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% trying to give my children a message. 24:36.233 --> 24:38.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% As I said way back in our talk, 24:38.933 --> 24:43.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I wish my dad had said something like that, 24:44.666 --> 24:45.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% where on the anniversary 24:45.800 --> 24:50.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of his 100th birthday, 24:50.066 --> 24:52.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I would be following his voice 24:52.633 --> 24:54.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% saying go play a round of golf 24:54.633 --> 24:57.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or go to a baseball game 24:57.266 --> 24:58.666 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in his memory. 25:00.400 --> 25:02.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think I do live in fear of being forgotten 25:02.733 --> 25:03.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% by my own children. 25:03.700 --> 25:04.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] You won't be forgotten. 25:04.933 --> 25:06.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean the thing about this book is 25:06.266 --> 25:07.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you are not gonna be forgotten anyway, 25:07.533 --> 25:09.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but the accomplishment of this book 25:09.733 --> 25:13.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is that I think it rose to meet the goal. 25:13.866 --> 25:15.933 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% You hit it. 25:15.933 --> 25:17.166 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [O'BRIEN] Good. 25:17.166 --> 25:18.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] And the last words in the book are 25:18.400 --> 25:20.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "I loved you. Dad." 25:20.866 --> 25:22.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That's how you signed this. 25:22.133 --> 25:23.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [O'BRIEN] It is. 25:23.400 --> 25:25.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I was in Paris when I wrote that last line. 25:25.533 --> 25:27.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Oh man, it just got me. 25:27.033 --> 25:29.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] And my wife read the conclusion and she said, 25:29.200 --> 25:32.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "You can't write 'I loved you,' past tense." 25:32.400 --> 25:34.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I said, "I think it's gotta be that way." 25:34.566 --> 25:36.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] It's perfectly on message. 25:36.100 --> 25:38.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] And Meredith finally agreed. 25:38.233 --> 25:39.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Great. 25:39.900 --> 25:41.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Tim, it's good to be with you. 25:41.733 --> 25:43.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Congratulations on the book, 25:43.666 --> 25:45.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and let's hope it's a big success 25:45.100 --> 25:46.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as everything else you've done. 25:46.433 --> 25:47.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [O'BRIEN] Thank you, thanks so much. 25:47.266 --> 25:48.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Tim O'Brien. 25:48.200 --> 25:52.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience applauding) 25:52.400 --> 25:54.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:54.766 --> 25:58.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Visit our website at klru.org/overheard 25:58.433 --> 26:01.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to find invitations to interviews, 26:01.033 --> 26:03.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Q and A's with our audience and guests, 26:03.066 --> 26:05.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and an archive of past episodes. 26:05.933 --> 26:10.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [O'BRIEN] My object is not to appeal to the intellect alone, 26:10.900 --> 26:12.200 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% although partly, 26:12.200 --> 26:14.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but it's to appeal to your stomach 26:14.333 --> 26:17.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and to your heart and the back of your neck. 26:17.900 --> 26:21.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And with "Dad's Maybe Book," 26:21.000 --> 26:22.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that was my effort. 26:22.566 --> 26:24.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I didn't wanna write a parenting book. 26:24.766 --> 26:26.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I don't have any advice to give. 26:26.766 --> 26:28.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [NARRATOR] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 26:28.833 --> 26:30.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is provided in part by 26:30.766 --> 26:34.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, 26:34.833 --> 26:36.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart, 26:36.666 --> 26:40.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and by Laura and John Beckworth, Hobby Family Foundation. 26:42.366 --> 26:44.433 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% (chimes)