1 00:00:01,466 --> 00:00:02,600 [FEMALE NARRTOR] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:04,533 is provided in part by 3 00:00:04,533 --> 00:00:08,633 Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, 4 00:00:08,633 --> 00:00:10,300 Claire and Carl Stuart, 5 00:00:10,300 --> 00:00:14,466 and by Laura and John Beckworth, Hobby Family Foundation. 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:17,466 [EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith. 7 00:00:17,466 --> 00:00:19,300 His acclaimed novels include 8 00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:20,500 "The Things They Carried," 9 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:21,466 "July, July" 10 00:00:21,466 --> 00:00:23,100 and "Going After Cacciato," 11 00:00:23,100 --> 00:00:27,000 which won the National Book Award in fiction 40 years ago. 12 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,633 His memoir, "Dad's Maybe Book" has just been published. 13 00:00:30,633 --> 00:00:33,066 He's Tim O'Brien, this is Overheard. 14 00:00:34,433 --> 00:00:35,700 [SMITH] Let's be honest, 15 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:37,466 is this about the ability to learn 16 00:00:37,466 --> 00:00:39,033 or is this about the experience 17 00:00:39,033 --> 00:00:40,600 of not having been taught properly? 18 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,300 How have you avoided what has befallen other nations 19 00:00:43,300 --> 00:00:44,566 in Africa and... 20 00:00:44,566 --> 00:00:45,833 You could say that he made his own bed, 21 00:00:45,833 --> 00:00:47,100 but you caused him to sleep in it. 22 00:00:47,100 --> 00:00:50,133 You know, you saw a problem and over time, 23 00:00:50,133 --> 00:00:51,700 took it on and... 24 00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:54,166 Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 25 00:00:54,166 --> 00:00:55,466 Are you gonna run for President? 26 00:00:55,466 --> 00:00:57,933 I think I just got an F from you, actually. 27 00:00:57,933 --> 00:00:58,933 This is Overheard. 28 00:00:58,933 --> 00:01:03,866 (audience applauding) 29 00:01:04,833 --> 00:01:06,366 [SMITH] Tim O'Brien, welcome. 30 00:01:06,366 --> 00:01:07,300 [TIM O'BRIEN] Great pleasure, thank you. 31 00:01:07,300 --> 00:01:08,100 [SMITH] Good to see you again. 32 00:01:08,100 --> 00:01:09,333 [O'BRIEN] You too. 33 00:01:09,333 --> 00:01:13,966 [SMITH] This book, I was so moved by this book, 34 00:01:15,166 --> 00:01:18,733 which is called "Dad's Maybe Book," because? 35 00:01:18,733 --> 00:01:22,133 [O'BRIEN] Well, because for 17 years, 36 00:01:22,133 --> 00:01:24,866 it was a maybe book. 37 00:01:24,866 --> 00:01:26,633 [SMITH] Didn't know that it would actually get done, right? 38 00:01:26,633 --> 00:01:28,633 [O'BRIEN] I wasn't sure I was even writing a book, Evan. 39 00:01:28,633 --> 00:01:31,733 I began the book as a little 40 00:01:31,733 --> 00:01:33,800 two page love letter 41 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:35,833 to my kids. 42 00:01:35,833 --> 00:01:39,366 I'm an older father, or you can subtract the -er. 43 00:01:39,366 --> 00:01:40,666 I'm an old father. 44 00:01:40,666 --> 00:01:42,000 [SMITH] Right. 45 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,066 First son born at 58. 46 00:01:44,066 --> 00:01:46,033 [O'BRIEN] 56, I think. 47 00:01:46,033 --> 00:01:47,833 I could be wrong. 48 00:01:47,833 --> 00:01:49,033 (audience laughing) 49 00:01:49,033 --> 00:01:50,000 [SMITH] I was trying to do the math 50 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:51,500 at various points in this 51 00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:52,733 and I just stopped 'cause I went into journalism 52 00:01:52,733 --> 00:01:54,366 not to do math so I thought, "Don't do it." 53 00:01:54,366 --> 00:01:56,066 But, mid-50s. 54 00:01:56,066 --> 00:01:57,900 [O'BRIEN] Late to mid. [SMITH] Late to mid fifties. 55 00:01:57,900 --> 00:01:59,266 [O'BRIEN] Somewhere in there. 56 00:01:59,266 --> 00:02:00,900 [SMITH] And you're in your mid-70s now. 57 00:02:00,900 --> 00:02:03,533 [O'BRIEN] Right, and I wanted to leave behind for my kids 58 00:02:03,533 --> 00:02:06,200 what I wish my own father had left for me. 59 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,433 Some messages that I could pick up 60 00:02:10,433 --> 00:02:12,333 as a middle age or older guy 61 00:02:12,333 --> 00:02:16,233 and read something that my dad had left for me, 62 00:02:16,233 --> 00:02:19,433 maybe a message of love or of instruction. 63 00:02:19,433 --> 00:02:20,366 [SMITH] Right. 64 00:02:20,366 --> 00:02:21,733 [O'BRIEN] An admonishment. 65 00:02:21,733 --> 00:02:24,300 And as an older father, 66 00:02:24,300 --> 00:02:27,400 I felt that squeeze of mortality 67 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,966 that I'd felt years before in Vietnam. 68 00:02:30,966 --> 00:02:33,966 And the book was written not to be a book, at first, 69 00:02:33,966 --> 00:02:35,233 just for the kids. 70 00:02:35,233 --> 00:02:38,366 And gradually pages accumulated. 71 00:02:38,366 --> 00:02:42,500 And, my wife and my children 72 00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:44,166 would talk about this. 73 00:02:44,166 --> 00:02:47,733 And at one point, my younger kid, his name is Tad, 74 00:02:47,733 --> 00:02:49,533 suggested, you know, 75 00:02:49,533 --> 00:02:51,566 he said to me, "Will this ever really be a book?" 76 00:02:51,566 --> 00:02:55,900 And I said, "Well, sometimes they end up in trashcans." 77 00:02:55,900 --> 00:03:00,133 Sometimes, as many of mine have, just thrown away. 78 00:03:00,133 --> 00:03:01,400 So I said "Maybe." 79 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,100 And he said, "Well, call it what it is. 80 00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:04,633 "Call it your maybe book." 81 00:03:04,633 --> 00:03:06,633 He said, "Tell the truth for a change." 82 00:03:06,633 --> 00:03:08,133 [SMITH] Right, yeah. 83 00:03:08,133 --> 00:03:10,133 [O'BRIEN] Because I've been writing novels all this time. 84 00:03:10,133 --> 00:03:11,833 [SMITH] Well, that's right, it's truth in advertising. 85 00:03:11,833 --> 00:03:13,366 It was your maybe book, 86 00:03:13,366 --> 00:03:16,400 but it actually turned out to be an actual thing. 87 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:17,866 It is as you describe it. 88 00:03:17,866 --> 00:03:22,433 It is a series of short and longer letters, almost, 89 00:03:22,433 --> 00:03:24,033 in chapter form 90 00:03:24,033 --> 00:03:26,600 to your sons who are now how old? 91 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:27,900 [O'BRIEN] 16 and 14. 92 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:29,366 [SMITH] 16 and 14. 93 00:03:29,366 --> 00:03:31,500 But as you say, you started out as an older father, 94 00:03:31,500 --> 00:03:34,333 conscious of the fact that as they got older, 95 00:03:34,333 --> 00:03:35,766 the way these things work, 96 00:03:35,766 --> 00:03:37,000 you're gonna get older. 97 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,500 And when they hit an age where it would be time 98 00:03:39,500 --> 00:03:42,400 for them to really get to know you as a person, 99 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,300 you would hopefully still be with them, 100 00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:46,433 but at least would be much older 101 00:03:46,433 --> 00:03:50,233 and probably a good idea to commit this stuff to paper now 102 00:03:50,233 --> 00:03:51,400 for all time. 103 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,433 [O'BRIEN] Yeah, there's a line in the book 104 00:03:53,433 --> 00:03:56,566 that when my children get to know me 105 00:03:56,566 --> 00:03:58,066 they will know an old man. 106 00:03:58,066 --> 00:03:59,833 [SMITH] They'll know an old man, right. 107 00:03:59,833 --> 00:04:01,766 [O'BRIEN] And they're there now, in a way. 108 00:04:01,766 --> 00:04:04,933 I'm 73 today, it's my birthday. 109 00:04:04,933 --> 00:04:06,500 [SMITH] Today's your birthday, as we sit here. 110 00:04:06,500 --> 00:04:08,833 (audience applauding) 111 00:04:08,833 --> 00:04:12,866 Actually, if you look in that cup, there's cake, actually. 112 00:04:12,866 --> 00:04:13,866 [O'BRIEN] I thought this was rum. 113 00:04:13,866 --> 00:04:16,400 [SMITH] It seemed kind of lumpy. 114 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:17,366 Happy birthday to you. 115 00:04:17,366 --> 00:04:18,300 [O'BRIEN] Thank you, thank you. 116 00:04:18,300 --> 00:04:19,666 [SMITH] Happy birthday to you. 117 00:04:19,666 --> 00:04:22,066 [O'BRIEN] It's like celebrating a hernia, however. 118 00:04:22,066 --> 00:04:23,300 [SMITH] Being that age? 119 00:04:23,300 --> 00:04:25,666 [O'BRIEN] You get to be that old. 120 00:04:25,666 --> 00:04:28,766 [SMITH] But you know, the idea of having kids at that age, 121 00:04:28,766 --> 00:04:29,600 the age that you did, 122 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,133 is still unusual, 123 00:04:31,133 --> 00:04:33,733 people still have kids at a much earlier age, 124 00:04:33,733 --> 00:04:35,966 but you live in a city, Austin, Texas, 125 00:04:35,966 --> 00:04:39,000 that is like the Peoples Republic of Peter Pan Syndrome. 126 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:40,533 [O'BRIEN] It is, yes. 127 00:04:40,533 --> 00:04:42,033 [SMITH] I mean, this is not the most unusual phenomemon 128 00:04:42,033 --> 00:04:43,233 where you live, 129 00:04:43,233 --> 00:04:44,466 but in most places, 130 00:04:44,466 --> 00:04:45,566 deciding to have a kid at that age, 131 00:04:45,566 --> 00:04:47,866 there are grandparents at your age. 132 00:04:47,866 --> 00:04:48,833 [O'BRIEN] Oh, I know. 133 00:04:48,833 --> 00:04:53,500 All of my own children's friends 134 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:55,200 have parents who are at least 135 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,200 a full generation younger than I am. 136 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,600 All of them. 137 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,333 There may be one exception, 138 00:05:01,333 --> 00:05:03,666 who in fact, might be in this room right now with us, 139 00:05:03,666 --> 00:05:07,100 but aside from that person. 140 00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:11,633 So they're conscious of my gray hair and my hearing problems 141 00:05:11,633 --> 00:05:13,333 to the point at which, 142 00:05:13,333 --> 00:05:15,166 maybe five years ago 143 00:05:15,166 --> 00:05:19,366 when he was nine or so, ten, 144 00:05:19,366 --> 00:05:22,000 my older son, Timmy, 145 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,133 began coming crying to me at night 146 00:05:25,133 --> 00:05:28,533 saying, "You're old and you're gonna die." 147 00:05:28,533 --> 00:05:30,633 And I mean really crying. 148 00:05:30,633 --> 00:05:31,566 [SMITH] Yeah. 149 00:05:31,566 --> 00:05:32,800 [O'BRIEN] Night after night, 150 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,733 he couldn't get it out of his head. 151 00:05:34,733 --> 00:05:37,833 And I couldn't lie to him. 152 00:05:37,833 --> 00:05:42,666 The best I could do was say, "Yeah, I know," 153 00:05:42,666 --> 00:05:45,733 and not much beyond that. 154 00:05:45,733 --> 00:05:46,933 And the book, in a way, 155 00:05:46,933 --> 00:05:48,866 is a way of dealing with something, 156 00:05:48,866 --> 00:05:52,000 which on the surface may seem morbid to people, 157 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,533 consciousness of the finality of our own lives, 158 00:05:56,533 --> 00:05:59,500 but to me it's not in the least morbid. 159 00:05:59,500 --> 00:06:04,500 It's part of the human experience, life and death. 160 00:06:05,233 --> 00:06:08,033 And there's a certain 161 00:06:08,033 --> 00:06:13,000 wisdom and excitement 162 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,233 that comes with being a father at my age. 163 00:06:16,233 --> 00:06:19,633 I doubt that at 39 or 29, 164 00:06:19,633 --> 00:06:22,733 I would have been so utterly devoted to my children, 165 00:06:22,733 --> 00:06:26,766 that I would give up writing books for 17 years. 166 00:06:26,766 --> 00:06:28,600 [SMITH] Because, in fact, the last book you published, 167 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,033 that's an excellent point, 168 00:06:30,033 --> 00:06:32,100 the last book you published, "July, July" is 2002. 169 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:33,333 [O'BRIEN] Yeah. 170 00:06:33,333 --> 00:06:34,266 [SMITH] It has been literally 17 years 171 00:06:34,266 --> 00:06:35,766 since you published a book, 172 00:06:35,766 --> 00:06:37,000 and you're someone who has had an extraordinary career, 173 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:37,900 your books have been bestsellers, 174 00:06:37,900 --> 00:06:39,033 they've won awards, 175 00:06:39,033 --> 00:06:40,900 you've been revered, correctly, 176 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:43,166 by people inside and outside of book publishing. 177 00:06:43,166 --> 00:06:46,666 And yet for 17 years, no Tim O'Brien books 178 00:06:46,666 --> 00:06:48,500 because you wanted to be a dad. 179 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:50,000 You made a decision. 180 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,466 [O'BRIEN] I made a choice that you cannot be a good father, 181 00:06:53,466 --> 00:06:55,266 the chief requirement of being a good father 182 00:06:55,266 --> 00:06:56,733 is to be present. 183 00:06:56,733 --> 00:06:59,333 You can't do anything else without being there. 184 00:06:59,333 --> 00:07:02,333 And as a writer who would squirrel himself away 185 00:07:02,333 --> 00:07:04,500 in a room for 186 00:07:04,500 --> 00:07:08,500 12, 15 hours a day writing, 187 00:07:08,500 --> 00:07:11,233 and then when I come out of that room 188 00:07:11,233 --> 00:07:13,800 full of all the stresses that a writer feels. 189 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,433 Is the book any good? Will people like it? 190 00:07:16,433 --> 00:07:20,033 Will I like it? The characters going through your head, 191 00:07:20,033 --> 00:07:21,533 you're not wholly present. 192 00:07:21,533 --> 00:07:24,166 [SMITH] You're no longer working, but you're working. 193 00:07:24,166 --> 00:07:25,133 [O'BRIEN] You're still working. 194 00:07:25,133 --> 00:07:25,966 [SMITH] You're still working. 195 00:07:25,966 --> 00:07:28,700 [O'BRIEN] And I just, 196 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:30,900 I can't be a father again. 197 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:32,333 [SMITH] You made a choice and you knew 198 00:07:32,333 --> 00:07:33,866 that you were never gonna get that time back. 199 00:07:33,866 --> 00:07:35,633 [O'BRIEN] Yeah, and the time will not be returned to me. 200 00:07:35,633 --> 00:07:37,166 [SMITH] Can I tell you something? 201 00:07:37,166 --> 00:07:41,266 As a person who had a kid a little earlier than you, 202 00:07:41,266 --> 00:07:43,300 first child born at 30, 203 00:07:43,300 --> 00:07:46,600 second child born at 34. 204 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,633 I was comforted to see that you didn't know 205 00:07:48,633 --> 00:07:51,733 a hell of a lot more about being a parent at your age 206 00:07:51,733 --> 00:07:53,200 than I did. 207 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,200 I thought that the problem was, you know, youth, 208 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:56,133 was the problem. 209 00:07:56,133 --> 00:07:57,366 No, it's hard to be a parent 210 00:07:57,366 --> 00:07:59,166 whether you're 30 or whether you're 56. 211 00:07:59,166 --> 00:08:00,166 [O'BRIEN] Of course. 212 00:08:00,166 --> 00:08:00,966 [SMITH] Whatever it is, right? 213 00:08:00,966 --> 00:08:02,233 [O'BRIEN] Of course. 214 00:08:02,233 --> 00:08:04,166 [SMITH] It is a mystery, parenthood is a mystery. 215 00:08:04,166 --> 00:08:06,266 Maybe you never solve the mystery of parenthood, 216 00:08:06,266 --> 00:08:07,700 but you're no better prepared to solve it 217 00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:08,833 at 56 than you are at 30. 218 00:08:08,833 --> 00:08:10,066 [O'BRIEN] No. 219 00:08:10,066 --> 00:08:12,233 [SMITH] So this book is about you, 220 00:08:12,233 --> 00:08:14,233 and this book is also about them. 221 00:08:14,233 --> 00:08:15,700 [O'BRIEN] Yes. 222 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:17,533 [SMITH] But this book is also about two other things. 223 00:08:17,533 --> 00:08:19,766 It's about your own father, 224 00:08:19,766 --> 00:08:22,766 and invariably because everything you write 225 00:08:22,766 --> 00:08:26,333 is about Vietnam and the experience of having been at war, 226 00:08:26,333 --> 00:08:27,500 it's about that. 227 00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:29,933 Now, it is not fiction, it's non-fiction. 228 00:08:29,933 --> 00:08:31,366 Your other books are novels. 229 00:08:31,366 --> 00:08:33,066 I wanna come to the Vietnam thing in a second, 230 00:08:33,066 --> 00:08:34,933 but I really want you to talk about your dad 231 00:08:34,933 --> 00:08:37,700 because your dad is a very present character in this book, 232 00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:39,400 even though, as you say, 233 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,533 you wanted to turn the page from your own experience 234 00:08:41,533 --> 00:08:43,900 and have a different experience with your own kids. 235 00:08:43,900 --> 00:08:45,266 But I want you to talk about your dad 236 00:08:45,266 --> 00:08:46,333 because I think your dad really does 237 00:08:46,333 --> 00:08:47,633 jump off the page in this book. 238 00:08:47,633 --> 00:08:50,233 [O'BRIEN] Well, I can summarize it quickly. 239 00:08:50,233 --> 00:08:52,033 I idolized my father. 240 00:08:52,033 --> 00:08:56,066 He was fun to be with, he was funny, 241 00:08:56,066 --> 00:08:59,166 he loved to read. 242 00:08:59,166 --> 00:09:03,033 Children loved him, he loved children. 243 00:09:03,033 --> 00:09:07,700 But he was an alcoholic, and a bad one. 244 00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:11,333 He was institutionalized twice in my childhood, 245 00:09:11,333 --> 00:09:15,033 so he was absent from the house for long swaths of time. 246 00:09:15,033 --> 00:09:15,966 [SMITH] Physically absent. 247 00:09:15,966 --> 00:09:17,666 [O'BRIEN] Physically absent, 248 00:09:17,666 --> 00:09:19,700 and when he was present, 249 00:09:19,700 --> 00:09:21,466 he was present 250 00:09:21,466 --> 00:09:25,966 with friend vodka going through his veins. 251 00:09:25,966 --> 00:09:27,766 It was chemistry. 252 00:09:27,766 --> 00:09:30,166 He was not a bad man. 253 00:09:30,166 --> 00:09:33,233 And in most ways, when sober, 254 00:09:33,233 --> 00:09:34,433 a great guy 255 00:09:34,433 --> 00:09:38,566 to have as a father. 256 00:09:38,566 --> 00:09:42,333 I'll never know if he even liked me, 257 00:09:42,333 --> 00:09:43,733 much less loved me. 258 00:09:43,733 --> 00:09:46,100 I suspect he-- 259 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:51,066 If he did love me, his love was utterly silent. 260 00:09:51,066 --> 00:09:54,766 And the impression I got 261 00:09:54,766 --> 00:09:56,500 as an eight, nine, ten, 262 00:09:56,500 --> 00:10:00,266 twelve year-old kid growing up, 263 00:10:00,266 --> 00:10:02,433 was he didn't like me very much, 264 00:10:02,433 --> 00:10:04,866 constantly finding fault 265 00:10:04,866 --> 00:10:08,533 with how I looked, the things I did, 266 00:10:08,533 --> 00:10:13,400 how straight I could throw a baseball, things like that. 267 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,466 This is, I was-- 268 00:10:16,466 --> 00:10:17,966 I was afraid of him, 269 00:10:17,966 --> 00:10:22,666 that I remember setting up an alarm system in my bedroom, 270 00:10:22,666 --> 00:10:24,466 two little bells and some string, 271 00:10:24,466 --> 00:10:28,566 so if the door opened I'd be awakened. 272 00:10:28,566 --> 00:10:31,333 And I remember going up into the kitchen 273 00:10:31,333 --> 00:10:34,100 and taking all the sharpest knives out of the drawers 274 00:10:34,100 --> 00:10:36,966 and hiding them in my room 275 00:10:36,966 --> 00:10:38,833 because when he did drink, 276 00:10:38,833 --> 00:10:40,666 it was a dangerous household. 277 00:10:40,666 --> 00:10:42,766 The tensions were terrible. 278 00:10:42,766 --> 00:10:44,733 And it didn't really end 279 00:10:44,733 --> 00:10:48,733 until many decades later 280 00:10:48,733 --> 00:10:50,866 when he finally got too old to drink. 281 00:10:50,866 --> 00:10:53,266 He just couldn't. 282 00:10:53,266 --> 00:10:57,166 At which point we did make a kind of peace. 283 00:10:57,166 --> 00:10:59,966 He moved here to Texas, to San Antonio, 284 00:10:59,966 --> 00:11:02,933 to a retirement home with my mom, 285 00:11:02,933 --> 00:11:07,933 and a kind of 286 00:11:07,933 --> 00:11:09,900 strange peace settled in. 287 00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:12,300 It wasn't father son talk, 288 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:14,266 it was just the absence of something 289 00:11:14,266 --> 00:11:16,033 which was the absence of tension. 290 00:11:16,033 --> 00:11:17,900 [SMITH] Yeah, it's amazing. 291 00:11:17,900 --> 00:11:20,566 And it's again, so vivid now, 292 00:11:20,566 --> 00:11:22,000 thinking about as you've described it, 293 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,133 and part of that I think may be 294 00:11:24,133 --> 00:11:26,533 his generation was just a different generation. 295 00:11:26,533 --> 00:11:27,466 [O'BRIEN] It was. 296 00:11:27,466 --> 00:11:28,566 [SMITH] To look at the world 297 00:11:28,566 --> 00:11:30,000 and the responsibilities of parenting, 298 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,433 the relationship with the younger generation differently, 299 00:11:31,433 --> 00:11:35,333 but he sounds like, as well, a singular character. 300 00:11:35,333 --> 00:11:36,833 Very specific. 301 00:11:36,833 --> 00:11:39,700 And again, your exercise as you chronicle it here, 302 00:11:39,700 --> 00:11:41,133 of being a good parent, 303 00:11:41,133 --> 00:11:43,966 is necessarily a reaction as much to that-- 304 00:11:43,966 --> 00:11:44,933 [O'BRIEN] It is. 305 00:11:44,933 --> 00:11:46,133 [SMITH] --as it is to anything. 306 00:11:46,133 --> 00:11:47,433 It's just like elections are always 307 00:11:47,433 --> 00:11:49,066 about the last year's then the next year's. 308 00:11:49,066 --> 00:11:51,866 Parenting is in some ways about the last 309 00:11:51,866 --> 00:11:52,766 as much as it is about the next. 310 00:11:52,766 --> 00:11:54,466 [O'BRIEN] Very true. 311 00:11:54,466 --> 00:11:58,266 And oddly, even my experience as a soldier in Vietnam, 312 00:11:58,266 --> 00:12:00,500 which I know you're going to move to, 313 00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:01,766 is related to my dad. 314 00:12:01,766 --> 00:12:03,700 He had been a sailor during World War II, 315 00:12:03,700 --> 00:12:06,366 he was at Iwo Jima, Okinawa, 316 00:12:06,366 --> 00:12:09,933 and I remember fondling his medals 317 00:12:09,933 --> 00:12:12,900 which he kept in a little drawer under his socks 318 00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:14,500 in his bureau. 319 00:12:19,066 --> 00:12:22,666 I wanted to please my dad so badly. 320 00:12:22,666 --> 00:12:26,000 And that fed into my ultimately 321 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,366 saying "yes" to a war I despised. 322 00:12:28,366 --> 00:12:30,166 [SMITH] Right, but as you correctly pointed out, 323 00:12:30,166 --> 00:12:34,700 because you refer in here to the generation of, 324 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:37,300 or I should say I've heard you talk about, 325 00:12:37,300 --> 00:12:38,700 I don't know if it's literally in this book 326 00:12:38,700 --> 00:12:40,666 so much as what you've said, 327 00:12:40,666 --> 00:12:42,866 you talk about the contemporary generation 328 00:12:42,866 --> 00:12:44,666 of people who've just come back from 329 00:12:44,666 --> 00:12:46,366 Iraq, Afghanistan, and all that, 330 00:12:46,366 --> 00:12:48,700 the difference between them and you 331 00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:51,766 is they made the decision. It was their choice to go. 332 00:12:51,766 --> 00:12:52,933 [O'BRIEN] Very much. 333 00:12:52,933 --> 00:12:55,333 [SMITH] Your generation, people like you, 334 00:12:55,333 --> 00:12:57,500 you went because that was what you had to do. 335 00:12:57,500 --> 00:12:59,966 You had to go as opposed to you chose to go. 336 00:12:59,966 --> 00:13:01,866 And that's a big difference. 337 00:13:01,866 --> 00:13:04,833 [O'BRIEN] It's a big difference. 338 00:13:04,833 --> 00:13:07,133 In the Vietnam War, the wolf was at the door 339 00:13:07,133 --> 00:13:08,200 for all the families. 340 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,133 The draft was there, 341 00:13:11,133 --> 00:13:13,600 and all the families across America 342 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,366 were in one way or another confronted 343 00:13:15,366 --> 00:13:17,633 with personal, moral choice. 344 00:13:17,633 --> 00:13:20,433 You had to put your body somewhere, 345 00:13:20,433 --> 00:13:22,666 in a jail or in Canada, 346 00:13:22,666 --> 00:13:24,233 or in a war. 347 00:13:24,233 --> 00:13:26,333 But you had to park it somewhere. 348 00:13:26,333 --> 00:13:29,966 And, as you say, the fundamental difference now 349 00:13:29,966 --> 00:13:32,700 is that wolf is only at the doors 350 00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:36,533 of those who voluntarily, 351 00:13:36,533 --> 00:13:41,433 whose sons or daughters voluntarily choose to go to a war. 352 00:13:41,433 --> 00:13:43,100 [SMITH] And we respect the decision 353 00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:45,133 because it is not everybody who makes the choice 354 00:13:45,133 --> 00:13:48,133 to sacrifice themself and their lives, 355 00:13:48,133 --> 00:13:49,800 whether they come back changed or not. 356 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,033 [O'BRIEN] Absolutely. 357 00:13:51,033 --> 00:13:51,833 [SMITH] Who doesn't come back changed, right-- 358 00:13:51,833 --> 00:13:53,066 - -for their country? 359 00:13:53,066 --> 00:13:54,500 We respect the choice, but it is a choice. 360 00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:55,733 [O'BRIEN] It is a choice. 361 00:13:55,733 --> 00:13:57,266 [SMITH] It's a vastly different thing. 362 00:13:57,266 --> 00:14:00,466 So let's come back around to Vietnam in a second. 363 00:14:00,466 --> 00:14:05,400 By my estimation, this is your first real non-fiction book. 364 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:06,966 [O'BRIEN] Since my very first. 365 00:14:06,966 --> 00:14:08,133 [SMITH] Since the very, very first. 366 00:14:08,133 --> 00:14:09,733 [O'BRIEN] The very first book when I was... 367 00:14:09,733 --> 00:14:11,300 [SMITH] Which was a war memoir, right? 368 00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:13,533 [O'BRIEN] It was a memoir of time at war. 369 00:14:13,533 --> 00:14:15,466 [SMITH] But every book has also been, 370 00:14:15,466 --> 00:14:16,900 to one degree or another, 371 00:14:16,900 --> 00:14:18,533 so straightforwardly or not, 372 00:14:18,533 --> 00:14:20,833 it's been about Vietnam, it's been about the war. 373 00:14:20,833 --> 00:14:22,700 [O'BRIEN] Yeah, in one degree or another, 374 00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:26,666 maybe not Vietnam, per se. 375 00:14:26,666 --> 00:14:27,900 [SMITH] But the experience. 376 00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:31,933 [O'BRIEN] The experience of being 21 years old 377 00:14:31,933 --> 00:14:34,333 and maybe dying with your next step. 378 00:14:34,333 --> 00:14:38,300 And the experience of making moral choices, 379 00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:41,766 not just to go to a war but how do you behave in a war? 380 00:14:41,766 --> 00:14:43,900 It's easy to lose your moral gyroscope 381 00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:47,633 when there's frenzy and death all around you. 382 00:14:49,333 --> 00:14:51,866 [SMITH] And Vietnam was a long time ago, at this point. 383 00:14:51,866 --> 00:14:54,600 But as you say, I've heard you say many times, 384 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,333 war goes on and on in memory. 385 00:14:56,333 --> 00:14:57,566 [O'BRIEN] It does. 386 00:14:57,566 --> 00:14:59,066 [SMITH] It doesn't really ever end 387 00:14:59,066 --> 00:15:01,400 as a reference point for you or as a backdrop for you. 388 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,066 [O'BRIEN] It doesn't, nor does it end for my children. 389 00:15:05,066 --> 00:15:06,633 They have to live with a father 390 00:15:06,633 --> 00:15:09,766 who goes silent and goes sad, 391 00:15:09,766 --> 00:15:13,533 whose memories it'll stare into space. 392 00:15:13,533 --> 00:15:16,366 So we have to count among 393 00:15:16,366 --> 00:15:19,166 those who are influenced by wars 394 00:15:19,166 --> 00:15:21,600 that go on and echo on through history. 395 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,966 What about the mothers who have lost their children 396 00:15:23,966 --> 00:15:25,433 in a war? 397 00:15:25,433 --> 00:15:29,900 Wars don't end for them when you sign a peace treaty. 398 00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:31,533 [SMITH] And in some places, years after, right? 399 00:15:31,533 --> 00:15:33,300 I mean years after-- [O'BRIEN] Years after. 400 00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:35,300 [SMITH] --a mother will have or someone will have, 401 00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:38,800 a family member will have this moment of awareness. 402 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,500 [O'BRIEN] Even to this day there is some 93-year-old woman 403 00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:44,100 or 98-year-old woman down in Orlando, Florida 404 00:15:44,100 --> 00:15:45,566 who wakes up at two in the morning 405 00:15:45,566 --> 00:15:47,266 and says, "Where's my baby?" 406 00:15:47,266 --> 00:15:48,500 [SMITH] Right. 407 00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:49,733 [O'BRIEN] Her baby has been dead for 50 years. 408 00:15:49,733 --> 00:15:51,633 [SMITH] 50 years, right. 409 00:15:51,633 --> 00:15:52,866 [O'BRIEN] But it hasn't left her. 410 00:15:52,866 --> 00:15:56,166 And it's so easy for Americans, 411 00:15:56,166 --> 00:15:59,133 and for all of us, not just Americans, 412 00:15:59,133 --> 00:16:00,900 to forget 413 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:04,766 that when you sign a peace treaty, 414 00:16:04,766 --> 00:16:07,366 the war doesn't stop in the heads 415 00:16:07,366 --> 00:16:08,700 not just of the soldiers 416 00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:12,766 but of everyone who surrounds soldiers. 417 00:16:12,766 --> 00:16:15,533 [SMITH] You can look away but it's not over. 418 00:16:15,533 --> 00:16:18,833 I was struck so much 419 00:16:18,833 --> 00:16:21,200 by your participation 420 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,300 in the television series "This Is Us," 421 00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:25,900 which in its third season, 422 00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:29,266 had a series of episodes related to the Vietnam experience 423 00:16:29,266 --> 00:16:34,000 that you co-authored, you co-wrote those scripts. 424 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,066 And you incorporated aspects 425 00:16:36,066 --> 00:16:38,566 of your own experience in Vietnam, 426 00:16:38,566 --> 00:16:40,033 into this storyline. 427 00:16:40,033 --> 00:16:41,533 [O'BRIEN] I did. 428 00:16:41,533 --> 00:16:45,700 [SMITH] And it struck me again how it's never over. 429 00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:49,733 It's a constantly replenishing source of material. 430 00:16:49,733 --> 00:16:52,133 It's still very emotional. 431 00:16:52,133 --> 00:16:55,700 I'm remembering something involving from that, 432 00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:57,233 help me flesh this out, 433 00:16:57,233 --> 00:16:59,533 something involving fishing with grenades. 434 00:16:59,533 --> 00:17:02,633 [O'BRIEN] Yeah, the incident that was recounted in 435 00:17:02,633 --> 00:17:03,500 "This Is Us," 436 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:04,566 [SMITH] In the series. 437 00:17:04,566 --> 00:17:06,400 [O'BRIEN] --in the series, 438 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,666 occurred in different form in my own experience. 439 00:17:09,666 --> 00:17:13,566 We were encamped along the South China Sea. 440 00:17:13,566 --> 00:17:15,900 Some of my fellow soldiers would go fishing. 441 00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:18,533 They would get into these round boats, 442 00:17:18,533 --> 00:17:22,000 about twice the size of this round table, 443 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,733 and they'd push it out into the waves 444 00:17:23,733 --> 00:17:25,900 and then they were able to pole it out 445 00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:28,633 into the deeper water. 446 00:17:28,633 --> 00:17:31,900 And they would go fishing not with hooks, 447 00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:33,266 and they fished with hand grenades. 448 00:17:33,266 --> 00:17:36,200 They'd throw in hand grenades to blow the fish up. 449 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,200 It was a kind of prankster fishing. 450 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:39,133 [SMITH] Yeah. 451 00:17:39,133 --> 00:17:39,933 [O'BRIEN] It wasn't fishing. 452 00:17:39,933 --> 00:17:41,433 They did it for fun. 453 00:17:41,433 --> 00:17:43,800 You're 22 years old and you got a crate of hand grenades. 454 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,900 Let's have some fun. 455 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:50,766 But it turned unfunny on a July day in '69 456 00:17:50,766 --> 00:17:55,333 when one of my friends was out in a boat, 457 00:17:55,333 --> 00:17:58,266 and the grenades had gotten wet, 458 00:17:58,266 --> 00:18:00,966 and greasy-feeling, 459 00:18:00,966 --> 00:18:03,000 and dropped one of them after pulling the pin, 460 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,066 and it fell into the boat, 461 00:18:05,066 --> 00:18:06,866 and he was killed. 462 00:18:06,866 --> 00:18:10,400 And I and maybe eight other guys had to wade out there, 463 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,466 and pull what had essentially been, 464 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,600 it was basically mush. 465 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,366 It was like pulling slush out of a boat. 466 00:18:19,366 --> 00:18:20,700 [SMITH] Oh, God. 467 00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:23,266 [O'BRIEN] A man who was not engaged, 468 00:18:23,266 --> 00:18:26,633 he was in a war but he wasn't engaged in warfare. 469 00:18:26,633 --> 00:18:29,433 He was engaged in being a kid, basically. 470 00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:33,133 It stuck with me, 471 00:18:33,133 --> 00:18:36,666 partly because it was such a terrible thing to look at, 472 00:18:36,666 --> 00:18:41,500 but partly because I liked the guy, and all these years-- 473 00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:45,100 And so when "This Is Us" was looking for something 474 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:49,733 really terrible that wasn't present 475 00:18:49,733 --> 00:18:53,500 in every other Vietnam movie, 476 00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:57,033 that was translated to the 477 00:18:57,033 --> 00:19:00,833 brother of a leading character 478 00:19:00,833 --> 00:19:02,466 dropping a grenade. 479 00:19:02,466 --> 00:19:06,233 Only an American doesn't die, it's a little Vietnamese boy. 480 00:19:06,233 --> 00:19:08,366 [SMITH] Kid, right, yeah. 481 00:19:08,366 --> 00:19:11,100 [O'BRIEN] And, I think it worked. 482 00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:13,266 It's tough on television to do what you can do 483 00:19:13,266 --> 00:19:15,866 in full theatrical movies. 484 00:19:15,866 --> 00:19:17,366 It's hard to do it, 485 00:19:17,366 --> 00:19:20,033 partly because "This Is Us" is interrupted by commercials, 486 00:19:20,033 --> 00:19:23,633 unlike virtually every other show I watch. 487 00:19:23,633 --> 00:19:26,766 But it's a well-written show and it's a serious show. 488 00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:33,666 When you say co-authored, yeah, I did, 489 00:19:33,666 --> 00:19:36,266 but the real arbiter of what goes on the show 490 00:19:36,266 --> 00:19:39,133 is its creator, as it should be, a guy named Dan Fogelman, 491 00:19:39,133 --> 00:19:41,433 and he and I did it together. 492 00:19:41,433 --> 00:19:44,133 And I always deferred to him. 493 00:19:44,133 --> 00:19:45,366 I get to leave the show. 494 00:19:45,366 --> 00:19:48,433 I don't do it anymore, but he's still doing it. 495 00:19:48,433 --> 00:19:52,133 [SMITH] So, roll forward to what happens now. 496 00:19:52,133 --> 00:19:56,166 Your kids are in the upper grades of school. 497 00:19:58,466 --> 00:19:59,300 World's a dangerous place. 498 00:20:00,133 --> 00:20:00,966 [O'BRIEN] Uh huh. 499 00:20:02,133 --> 00:20:03,400 [SMITH] Would you send your kids off? 500 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:04,933 Would you suggest, if your kids came to you 501 00:20:04,933 --> 00:20:07,266 and said we wanna follow in your footsteps 502 00:20:07,266 --> 00:20:08,700 and your dad's footsteps, 503 00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:11,566 and go off and serve, again by choice, 504 00:20:11,566 --> 00:20:13,833 because presumably it will still be by choice. 505 00:20:13,833 --> 00:20:15,133 Do you have any reservations about that 506 00:20:15,133 --> 00:20:17,266 beyond the obvious reservations as a parent 507 00:20:17,266 --> 00:20:19,400 not wanting to put their kids in harm's way? 508 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,933 [O'BRIEN] Well, I don't have the problems 509 00:20:22,933 --> 00:20:24,800 that other parents might have. 510 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,566 My children have lived with me now for 17 years, 511 00:20:28,566 --> 00:20:31,600 or 16 years and 14 years, respectively. 512 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,433 They know how I feel, 513 00:20:33,433 --> 00:20:34,600 they know I was a soldier, 514 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,100 they know I didn't like it, 515 00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:39,700 they know I didn't believe in the rectitude 516 00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:43,600 of our war in Vietnam. 517 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,566 They know that I believe that a certain blood was shed, 518 00:20:47,566 --> 00:20:51,300 3 million Vietnamese, 60,000 Americans, 519 00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:52,866 for uncertain reasons. 520 00:20:52,866 --> 00:20:55,033 The reasons were disputed 521 00:20:55,033 --> 00:20:59,133 through families and across America. 522 00:20:59,133 --> 00:21:00,433 Ambiguity everywhere, 523 00:21:00,433 --> 00:21:04,333 and so did my children understand this. 524 00:21:04,333 --> 00:21:06,033 I did tell them one evening 525 00:21:06,033 --> 00:21:07,366 and I wrote about it in the book. 526 00:21:07,366 --> 00:21:09,133 I said, "You know, just because I did something, 527 00:21:09,133 --> 00:21:11,000 "doesn't mean you have to do it." 528 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,266 [SMITH] Right. 529 00:21:12,266 --> 00:21:14,333 [O'BRIEN] And Tad said, "You mean like smoking?" 530 00:21:14,333 --> 00:21:15,466 (audience laughing) 531 00:21:15,466 --> 00:21:17,400 I said, "Yeah, great example." 532 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,233 [SMITH] That's probably on the list, yeah. 533 00:21:19,233 --> 00:21:21,500 [O'BRIEN] And Timmy said, "You mean like swearing?" 534 00:21:21,500 --> 00:21:24,433 and I said, "Yeah, that belongs on the list." 535 00:21:24,433 --> 00:21:26,700 And I said to them, 536 00:21:26,700 --> 00:21:30,233 "You know, if your dad were a bully, 537 00:21:30,233 --> 00:21:33,200 "would you start beating up on teachers?" 538 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:38,133 And Tad said, "Well, not really, not like you." 539 00:21:38,133 --> 00:21:41,533 Meaning, I've got a temper that came out of Vietnam 540 00:21:41,533 --> 00:21:45,033 that I get outraged quickly and lose it, 541 00:21:45,033 --> 00:21:47,866 that I didn't have prior to the war. 542 00:21:47,866 --> 00:21:49,666 [SMITH] And all these years later, 543 00:21:49,666 --> 00:21:50,633 [O'BRIEN] It'll come out. 544 00:21:50,633 --> 00:21:51,600 [SMITH] It goes on and on. 545 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,566 [O'BRIEN] Another example. 546 00:21:53,566 --> 00:21:57,933 So they know how I feel. 547 00:21:57,933 --> 00:21:59,933 As a parent you can't tell a kid go to a war. 548 00:21:59,933 --> 00:22:01,666 [SMITH] Right, but you understand, Tim, 549 00:22:01,666 --> 00:22:04,366 as much as it was that experience as you just described, 550 00:22:04,366 --> 00:22:06,566 at the same time there's something really honorable 551 00:22:06,566 --> 00:22:08,366 about putting yourself in that situation. 552 00:22:08,366 --> 00:22:10,566 I mean, you could understand where 553 00:22:10,566 --> 00:22:12,233 everything else that you've said, not withstanding, 554 00:22:12,233 --> 00:22:15,633 they may say there's a lot of honor and dignity 555 00:22:15,633 --> 00:22:16,633 in making that choice. 556 00:22:16,633 --> 00:22:18,100 [O'BRIEN] There is. 557 00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:22,400 I mean, all human beings have to make our moral choices. 558 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,333 The children will be independent human beings. 559 00:22:25,333 --> 00:22:30,133 I've done my best to give them my feelings 560 00:22:30,133 --> 00:22:31,933 about the world we live in. 561 00:22:31,933 --> 00:22:33,433 I don't think you should kill people 562 00:22:33,433 --> 00:22:35,333 unless you're pretty sure it's the right thing to do. 563 00:22:35,333 --> 00:22:36,800 [SMITH] Yeah. 564 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,000 [O'BRIEN] Vietnam, we weren't pretty sure as a country. 565 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,600 We were totally divided. 566 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,600 That's the kind of thing I can say to a kid 567 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:43,533 but he has to-- 568 00:22:43,533 --> 00:22:44,466 [SMITH] Make the choice himself. 569 00:22:44,466 --> 00:22:45,666 [O'BRIEN] --make the choice. 570 00:22:45,666 --> 00:22:46,900 [SMITH] It's almost always confusing 571 00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:48,033 whether it's the right thing or not, right? 572 00:22:48,033 --> 00:22:50,033 So I wanna say as we wrap here, 573 00:22:50,033 --> 00:22:51,433 I wanna talk about the end of this book. 574 00:22:51,433 --> 00:22:53,366 So the last bit in this book 575 00:22:53,366 --> 00:22:58,333 is effectively a letter to them 576 00:22:58,333 --> 00:22:59,833 many years in the future. 577 00:22:59,833 --> 00:23:01,366 [O'BRIEN] Yes. 578 00:23:01,366 --> 00:23:03,666 [SMITH] After you are presumed to be long gone. 579 00:23:03,666 --> 00:23:05,700 [O'BRIEN] Yeah, it's a letter-- 580 00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:07,200 [SMITH] It was the part that really got me. 581 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,800 It was the part that got me. 582 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,633 [O'BRIEN] Good, got to me too, to write it. 583 00:23:13,633 --> 00:23:16,333 It's a letter to Timmy and Tad 584 00:23:16,333 --> 00:23:21,333 that on my 100th birthday I asked them to do something. 585 00:23:21,333 --> 00:23:24,833 I'll be dead by then. 586 00:23:24,833 --> 00:23:26,533 Most likely. 587 00:23:26,533 --> 00:23:31,300 And if I'm not, do it on my 110th birthday, but do it. 588 00:23:31,300 --> 00:23:33,866 Go play a round of golf together, 589 00:23:33,866 --> 00:23:36,100 just not as golfers, 590 00:23:36,100 --> 00:23:40,600 but for the quietude and the time together, 591 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,333 the walking. 592 00:23:42,333 --> 00:23:46,566 And feel the joy 593 00:23:46,566 --> 00:23:47,800 of your feet 594 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,800 treading on the ground beneath you 595 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,600 and feel your own 596 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,233 trajectory through life, 597 00:23:55,233 --> 00:24:00,166 which is short, as life is, 598 00:24:00,166 --> 00:24:02,200 and often tenuous as life is. 599 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,133 Golf balls go astray, and so do people. 600 00:24:05,133 --> 00:24:07,933 But feel that this is something 601 00:24:07,933 --> 00:24:09,500 and pretend that I'm with you. 602 00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:12,700 I won't be. 603 00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:14,766 Have a couple of drinks afterwards, 604 00:24:14,766 --> 00:24:17,133 and share a few stories about your youth, 605 00:24:17,133 --> 00:24:19,233 maybe even about me. 606 00:24:19,233 --> 00:24:23,366 Although my memory by that point will be very faded, 607 00:24:23,366 --> 00:24:26,400 if they remember at all. 608 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,166 Much of my childhood has evaporated. 609 00:24:28,166 --> 00:24:30,566 I don't remember much. 610 00:24:30,566 --> 00:24:34,233 But it's a way of 611 00:24:34,233 --> 00:24:36,233 trying to give my children a message. 612 00:24:36,233 --> 00:24:38,933 As I said way back in our talk, 613 00:24:38,933 --> 00:24:43,933 I wish my dad had said something like that, 614 00:24:44,666 --> 00:24:45,800 where on the anniversary 615 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,066 of his 100th birthday, 616 00:24:50,066 --> 00:24:52,633 I would be following his voice 617 00:24:52,633 --> 00:24:54,633 saying go play a round of golf 618 00:24:54,633 --> 00:24:57,266 or go to a baseball game 619 00:24:57,266 --> 00:24:58,666 in his memory. 620 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,733 I think I do live in fear of being forgotten 621 00:25:02,733 --> 00:25:03,700 by my own children. 622 00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:04,933 [SMITH] You won't be forgotten. 623 00:25:04,933 --> 00:25:06,266 I mean the thing about this book is 624 00:25:06,266 --> 00:25:07,533 you are not gonna be forgotten anyway, 625 00:25:07,533 --> 00:25:09,733 but the accomplishment of this book 626 00:25:09,733 --> 00:25:13,866 is that I think it rose to meet the goal. 627 00:25:13,866 --> 00:25:15,933 You hit it. 628 00:25:15,933 --> 00:25:17,166 [O'BRIEN] Good. 629 00:25:17,166 --> 00:25:18,400 [SMITH] And the last words in the book are 630 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,866 "I loved you. Dad." 631 00:25:20,866 --> 00:25:22,133 That's how you signed this. 632 00:25:22,133 --> 00:25:23,400 [O'BRIEN] It is. 633 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,533 I was in Paris when I wrote that last line. 634 00:25:25,533 --> 00:25:27,033 [SMITH] Oh man, it just got me. 635 00:25:27,033 --> 00:25:29,200 [O'BRIEN] And my wife read the conclusion and she said, 636 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,400 "You can't write 'I loved you,' past tense." 637 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,566 And I said, "I think it's gotta be that way." 638 00:25:34,566 --> 00:25:36,100 [SMITH] It's perfectly on message. 639 00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:38,233 [O'BRIEN] And Meredith finally agreed. 640 00:25:38,233 --> 00:25:39,900 [SMITH] Great. 641 00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:41,733 Tim, it's good to be with you. 642 00:25:41,733 --> 00:25:43,666 Congratulations on the book, 643 00:25:43,666 --> 00:25:45,100 and let's hope it's a big success 644 00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:46,433 as everything else you've done. 645 00:25:46,433 --> 00:25:47,266 [O'BRIEN] Thank you, thanks so much. 646 00:25:47,266 --> 00:25:48,200 [SMITH] Tim O'Brien. 647 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,400 (audience applauding) 648 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,766 [SMITH] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 649 00:25:54,766 --> 00:25:58,433 Visit our website at klru.org/overheard 650 00:25:58,433 --> 00:26:01,033 to find invitations to interviews, 651 00:26:01,033 --> 00:26:03,066 Q and A's with our audience and guests, 652 00:26:03,066 --> 00:26:05,933 and an archive of past episodes. 653 00:26:05,933 --> 00:26:10,900 [O'BRIEN] My object is not to appeal to the intellect alone, 654 00:26:10,900 --> 00:26:12,200 although partly, 655 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,333 but it's to appeal to your stomach 656 00:26:14,333 --> 00:26:17,900 and to your heart and the back of your neck. 657 00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:21,000 And with "Dad's Maybe Book," 658 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,566 that was my effort. 659 00:26:22,566 --> 00:26:24,766 I didn't wanna write a parenting book. 660 00:26:24,766 --> 00:26:26,766 I don't have any advice to give. 661 00:26:26,766 --> 00:26:28,833 [NARRATOR] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 662 00:26:28,833 --> 00:26:30,766 is provided in part by 663 00:26:30,766 --> 00:26:34,833 Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, 664 00:26:34,833 --> 00:26:36,666 Claire and Carl Stuart, 665 00:26:36,666 --> 00:26:40,666 and by Laura and John Beckworth, Hobby Family Foundation. 666 00:26:42,366 --> 00:26:44,433 (chimes)