[FEMALE ANNOUNCER] Funding
for Overheard with Evan Smith

is provided in part
by Hillco Partners

a Texas government
affairs consultancy.

Claire and Carl Stuart and by

Laura and John Beckworth,
Hobby Family Foundation.

[EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith,

he spent 18 years
as a Republican

member of Congress from
Arizona, including six

as a United States Senator.

He's Jeff Flake,
this is Overheard.

(music)

Let's be honest, is this
about the ability to learn

or is this about the experience

of not have been
taught properly?

How have you avoided what
has befallen other nations

in Africa and elsewhere?

You can that he made his own bed

but you caused him
to sleep in it.

You saw a problem and over
time, took it on and --

Let's start with the sizzle
before we get to the steak.

Are you gonna run for president?

I think I just got an
F from you, actually.

This is Overheard.

(audience cheering)

[SMITH] Senator Flake, welcome.

[JEFF FLAKE] Good to be here.

[SMITH] Thank you very
much for being here.

What the hell is going
on in Washington?

(audience and Jeff laughing)

[FLAKE] Man, last
year at this time,

at the time of your festival

were the Kavanaugh hearings.

[SMITH] Right, yeah.

[FLAKE] I remember them.

[SMITH] And this year says
to last year, "Hold my beer."

(audience laughing).

[FLAKE] It's unbelievable.

[SMITH] So again, the
frame for everybody is

as we're sitting here today,
the Director of National

Intelligence is testifying
before the United States

House Intelligence Committee.

The whistleblower report
on the Ukraine call

the president's call to
the president of Ukraine,

our president's call
to their president,

has just been released, we're
in the middle of the storm.

They eye of the
hurricane, right?

So we still don't know
where this is all going.

[FLAKE] We don't.

[SMITH] And you're no longer
in Congress, so you have no

special knowledge
of this, do you?

[FLAKE] I don't.

[SMITH] Are you glad or sorry?

(audience laughing)

[FLAKE] I had to say,
when I was on a plane

and trying to get a
little meager wifi

to see what was going
on, part of me was saying

"I've gotta follow this,"
and part of me was saying

"I don't have to follow this."

[SMITH] No, "I no longer
have to do this anymore."

So what you know of
what has happened

what do you make of it?

[FLAKE] As a Republican,
I can't understand how

some of my colleagues
aren't more

up in arms about it, frankly.

(audience applauding)

For the president to call the
president of another country

and ask them to do a
favor, which is to look in

and investigate his
political opponent.

That just in itself
ought to be something

that we ought to be
completely disturbed about.

Second, if you removed all
that from that conversation

to hear him talk about
other world leaders there.

"Angela Merkel, she's not
doing anything for Ukraine."

In truth she is, but just
that you would talk that way.

Or a former ambassador, "What
a terrible person she is."

I mean, it's just we're
in a whole new world now

and I think it's--

[SMITH] Are you surprised?

You served in the Senate
for a couple of years

with this president in the
White House, are you surprised?

[FLAKE] I'm not surprised
by his actions, no.

But I'm continually surprised
that there isn't more outrage

on the right, from
Conservatives.

[SMITH] Would you be saying this

if you were still in Congress?

Everybody is the Tom Brady of
Monday morning quarterbacks.

When the game is over,
everybody has the answer.

Would you be saying it
when you were in Congress?

[FLAKE] I had the advantage
of announcing that I wasn't

running for reelection
15 months before I left

so I was able to talk, but
I said a number of times

if I was trying to
run for reelection

there's no way I could
have said what I said.

Not in this environment.

This is the president's
party, the Republican Party.

[SMITH] Period.
[FLAKE] It is, it is.

[SMITH] It's the
Trump Party now.

[FLAKE] It is, and every one
of my colleagues knows it

and those who are up for
reelection, they understand

that just one statement,
one tweet or whatever

that criticizes the president
might get them a primary.

And that's unfortunate.

[SMITH] At a minimum,
it gets you a nickname.

[FLAKE] Yeah, yeah.

[SMITH] What were
you, Flaky Flake?

[FLAKE] Flaky Flake,
which, come one.

[SMITH] Honestly, that's
too easy, that's lazy.

He can do better
than that, right?

Corn Flake, I mean we
could probably sit here

and come up with better
nicknames for you, actually.

[FLAKE] I grew up, my hometown
was Snowflake, Arizona.

[SMITH] Snow Flake.

[FLAKE] I'm not kidding.

[SMITH] Come on, it was
right there, he missed it.

[FLAKE] It was right there.

[SMITH] Do you understand why
the Democrats are trying to

look into the possibility
of impeachment

or do you think that
they're over their skis?

Again, as we sit here today.

[FLAKE] I wish that, Speaker
Pelosi has held off for so long

and I've applauded
her for doing so.

I hope that we don't need
to impeach this president.

I would like to see the
president defeated next year

but I would not rather
go that direction.

I don't want to
get into a cycle.

I've lived in too many countries
where instead of saying

when you lose an election,
"We're gonna come back

"with a better message, get
some better messengers,"

that we'll just disqualify our
opponent once they beat us.

And that's what I'm
afraid we're going to

get into that cycle, we may be
part way into that cycle now

but they're in a tough
position, and I understand

the inclination to say,
"We've got our role here.

"We are a co-equal branch
and if we see behavior

"that qualifies for
impeachment, it's our duty

"no matter what the politics
are, to go through with it."

[SMITH] Because the alternative,

if you allow the
electoral system

to be the accountability
measure, then you effectively

legitimize the behavior that
you consider to be impeachable

if you say for the sake of
process, or for the sake of

democracy, "We're just gonna
kick this to the voters."

Don't you?

[FLAKE] In some way, I think
that that's still outweighed by

I mean, we are in a
divided country right now

and what impeachment
would do, I think it would

likely play to the
president's benefit

assuming the president is
impeached but not convicted.

[SMITH] His argument
is, Brad Parscale,

the head of his campaign

and others around him
have said all along

basically, "Bring it,
you do this you're gonna

"activate our base," the
country is not for impeachment

in fact there have been
polls that have showed

that even some Democrats don't
think this is the answer.

[FLAKE] Right, I
think his campaign
certainly feels that way

and I think it probably would
be a boost to him politically.

I'm not sure he wants that,
and there've been signs

that just he doesn't

want that moniker later
for history, I guess.

[SMITH] First line of
his obituary, right?

[FLAKE] Yeah, and so I
think that that troubles him

but not enough to stop
some of the behavior

that's bringing it on.

[SMITH] Is he the
reason you left?

Did you leave because of him
or did you leave because of it?

[FLAKE] Well, I would have liked

to have stayed another term.

You work hard to
get to the Senate.

[SMITH] Right, one and
out is not normally done.

[FLAKE] Yeah, it's a
wonderful institution

with wonderful people

so I wasn't down
on the institution.

We have a good system
of government here.

But for me, what
it came down to is

I would have had to condone
behavior I can't condone

or adopt positions that
I simply can't adopt.

And the bottom line for me was,
I knew that I would have to

because every Senate race
is a national race now.

And in Arizona, the president
likes to come to Arizona.

I knew that I would have to
stand on a campaign stage

with the president and be
okay when people are shouting

"Lock her up," or
"Send them back,"

or be okay

when the president
was ridiculing my
colleagues and friends

or people in my state,
and I couldn't do that.

I just couldn't do that.

[SMITH] So you chose to
leave rather than to fight.

Because that's one
way to interpret it.

I'm not suggesting that you
fled, but I am suggesting

that an alternative path--

[FLAKE] Would have been
to go down fighting.

[SMITH] To allowing
a bully to bully you

is to punch the
bully in the nose.

Didn't your dad tell you that?

My dad told me that,
if a bully comes at you

you punch the bully in the
nose, and then the bully

moves down the line and
bullies somebody else.

[FLAKE] Well for that,

I don't mind standing
up to the president

and challenging his positions,
but it was never my style

and never will be to engage
in the type of behavior.

[SMITH] Tit for tat.

[FLAKE] Yeah, and that
concerns me greatly.

Earlier this year
when a Democrat

who had won election

it was the gentlewoman
from Michigan, Tlaib.

[SMITH] Rashida Tlaib, yeah.

[FLAKE] She had a press
conference or some event

where she used very
crude, vulgar language

to say we ought to
impeach the president,

get him out of office.

And since I've been very
critical of the president

for his crude,
vulgar language often

I thought I ought to say
something, so I just Tweeted out

"This kind of language should
have no place in politics.

"The fact that the president
uses it should be no excuse

"for the rest of us.
We should be better."

[SMITH] How'd that go?

[FLAKE] Within two days,

there were 30,000
comments on that post.

I was what they call ratioed.

You have more
comments than likes.

[SMITH] The ratioing
of Jeff Flake.

[FLAKE] But the
overwhelming sentiment was

"If the president speaks
this way then so must we."

And that, we're coming to a
point where we shouldn't come to

we shouldn't participate
in that, and that's what

I'm concerned of. My colleagues
on the Republican side

I understand, you don't
wanna go out and respond

to every tweet, you can't.

There aren't enough
hours in the day

and you get so
tired of the media.

Every time you get
off the trolley

from the Russell Building
to vote there's a mob

wanting to talk about--

[SMITH] What about the latest.

[FLAKE] Yeah, and you
just can't do it all.

But when the president
goes so far sometimes

you ought to speak out,
you ought to say something.

And for my colleagues,
I would say today

you can hold your
criticism of the president

and get through this
perhaps, but don't stand on

a campaign stage with
the president when he's

ridiculing your colleagues,
or when people are shouting

"Lock her up."

[SMITH] Of course, what's
the alternative, though?

If the president announces,
"I'm coming to North Carolina

to campaign for Tom Tillis,"
your former colleague.

"I'm gonna come to Maine and
campaign for Susan Collins."

What are Tom Tillis or
Susan Collins supposed to do

say, "No, thanks."

[FLAKE] Yeah, that's
what it would take.

I would think that if
enough people do that

and simply say, "We're
not gonna do it,"

then he's gonna
have to pull back.

But this is just not
us, as Republicans.

As I said, this is
unfamiliar territory

not just on the policy side but
the politics of it, as well.

And we can't continue to
contribute to that because

I think as a party,
young people look at this

millennials, and
they've been I think

walking away from
the party for a while

because of I think our
unwillingness as Republicans

for example to
acknowledge climate change

or some other things.

I think now they're in a dead
sprint away from the party

and when you look
at demographics,

in terms of where
we are nationally,

George W. Bush
won the presidency

winning 56% of the white vote.

Mitt Romney got 59% of
the white vote and lost.

Every couple of years, we
are more diverse as a country

and I believe the
autopsy we did in 2012

after the Romney loss

that we have to appeal
to a broader electorate.

But as a party, we pushed it
aside and chased a populist.

And you can win an
election here or there

with a populist message, you
put together an odd coalition

then go ahead.

[SMITH] But it's not
a long-term strategy.

[FLAKE] It's not.

[SMITH] Is it possible to be,
just back to this point about

millennials, I was fascinated
to hear you say that.

Is it possible to have a
conservative message on policy

and attract millennials?

[FLAKE] Yes, I think so.

[SMITH] What is it,
articulate the case.

[FLAKE] One, on the fiscal side.

I think millennials look
at this $22 trillion debt

although nobody's paying
much attention to it.

[SMITH] I seem to remember
Republicans not liking the debt

and now all of a sudden, this
has been an extraordinary year

as far as that goes.

[FLAKE] But I think they
look at that and say

"We're going to inherit this?

"You're not doing
anything in that regard."

On the climate issue,
I think there are

conservative policies, the
carbon dividend, a carbon tax.

As Republicans, the gospel
we preach as conservatives

is, "If you don't like something

"you want less of
something, tax it."

And you can do that in a
way if it's revenue neutral

and there are a number of
good proposals out there.

I introduced a bill when
I was back in the House.

Introduced a similar bill in
the Senate for a carbon tax

a revenue neutral carbon tax.

[SMITH] Well, supporting
the environment

actually has a legacy

within the Republican
Party, because after all

Richard Nixon who
created the EPA.

I mean, the reality
is, your party has been

pro-environment in the past.

[FLAKE] The conservative
message has always been

limited government, economic
freedom, free trade.

We live in a globalized
society, millennials know that

better than anybody,
and this notion that

we're gonna take a position
that we have not taken

in the past, this
protectionist, nativist view.

That doesn't go well
with millennials.

I think that there are
messages we can come with

but we've gotta start
with one, realizing

we need to have a
more inclusive brand

and we just don't
have that right now.

Let's just drill
down on the base

and see if it'll work for
one more election cycle.

And one, I don't think it will.

But two, if it does,
that's about it.

You look at the demographics
here and the change

here in Texas, we're
experiencing the same
thing in Arizona.

And it's tough to see
how this party lasts

and remains a political
force in the future.

[SMITH] You believe
Arizona is a swing state?

[FLAKE] Yeah, I
think we're there.

If you look at statewide,

my seat went to a Democrat,

Kyrsten Sinema, by a couple
of percentage points.

It wasn't that close.

[SMITH] Right.

[FLAKE] We have
another race coming up.

[SMITH] Same person
who lost last time

is running again this time.

[FLAKE] Exactly, and
she has the position

she's in the difficult position
to try to avoid a primary

not getting too far
away from the president

but needing to in the
general, create some distance

from the president,
because in Arizona

I think this is a
good thing, statewide

the Republican Party just
looks at the president

and says, "Not so much."

And the base of the party,
those who vote in primaries

that subset of a subset, are
very much with the president.

[SMITH] But maybe not to 50%,

depending upon who the Democrats

put up as a candidate.

[FLAKE] Not even
close, and I do think--

[SMITH] You like
Senator McSally.

[FLAKE] I do, I do.

[SMITH] You know her
Democratic opponent,

Mark Kelly, the astronaut?

[FLAKE] I do.

[SMITH] Gabrielle
Gifford's husband.

[FLAKE] Yeah, and he has the
advantage, he doesn't have

a Democratic primary
right now, probably won't.

He's stockpiling a lot of
money, he's got a lot of

support around the
country, he has a name

and he's played politics and
policy right down the middle.

He's been very smart about that.

[SMITH] You're gonna be for him?

[FLAKE] I'm sorry?

[SMITH] Will you be for him?

[FLAKE] I'm not
saying that at all.

(audience laughing)

[SMITH] Are you for
Senator McSally?

[FLAKE] We'll see how
the campaign come out.

(audience laughing)

We're a year out.

[SMITH] I understand
that but, Senator Flake,

you understand that you
just answered the question

whether or not you
answered the question.

I mean, if you were for Senator
McSally you would say so.

[FLAKE] I don't think that
every Republican ought to say

I'm only gonna vote
for Republicans.

I famously, when Roy Moore

was the candidate in Alabama

I wrote a check to his
Democratic opponent.

(audience clapping)

And I think that
that's something

when you talk about millennials,
and most right-thinking

Americans think, "You're
gonna put party over country

"every time, no matter what

"and just vote
right down the line?

[SMITH] That has been the
criticism of, I don't want to

harp on this, as it
relates to you so much

but you understand,
because you just brought up

party over country.
That was a, John McCain,

your late colleague in the
Senate, fellow Arizonan

was the exemplar of the
idea of country over party.

That was a phrase
that he popularized

during his presidential
race, and again

during his time in the Senate.

There are a number of
Republicans in the Senate

and in some ways you
became fairly or unfairly

the poster child for this,
that it's country over party

until it comes time
to vote, right?

And the Kavanaugh confirmation,
which was a year ago

as we sit here, is
one example of that.

But you are often, you heard
this, I'm not telling you

something that you didn't
hear, that "Jeff Flake always

"furrows his brow, as other
Republicans do and talk about

"country over party until
it comes time to put up."

What do you say about that?

[FLAKE] Well, I
think Mitch McConnell

would disagree with you on that.

[SMITH] Yes, he probably would.

[FLAKE] In terms of my votes.

[SMITH] Yeah, he probably would.

[FLAKE] For the last two
months of my time in the Senate

I held up about 40
judges from going through

until we could get a vote

on protecting the
Mueller investigation.

[SMITH] Right.

[FLAKE] So when I--

(audience clapping)

So I am first a conservative.

I do want more
conservative judges.

And I've liked the
fact that it has become

more balanced now on
the federal courts.

[SMITH] But you're also
for the rule of law.

[FLAKE] You bet, and during
the Kavanaugh hearing

my feeling was, and here's the
problem with politics today

what we've come to in this
place, particularly with

social media as a backdrop,
is a time when deliberation

is just about gone, because
people in a position

that I was in, particularly if
you're running for reelection

you make a calculation,
when a big issue comes along

whether it's debt and
deficit or gun policy

or climate change or Kavanaugh

you make a calculation, I
only wanna anger one side.

And so you rush to your tribe,

you declare where you are

and you stay there, and
you never want to concede

that a hearing that
you might be chairing

might inform your vote, or
that an investigation going on

might influence where you are.

[SMITH] An open mind is
a liability these days.

[FLAKE] Because as soon
as you indicate that

then all sides come in.

[SMITH] Come at you, right.

[FLAKE] And so you
make a calculation,

I only wanna anger one side

they won't really be angry
because they never thought

I was gettable anyway.

And that's what you
seek as a politician

an elected official,
political safety.

And that's not where it is.
To be the man in the middle

is not a comfortable
place to be.

[SMITH] And is that
ultimately what caused you

to make the decision,
because I mean

I'm hearing what you're
saying, it seems to me

that it would be difficult
if you're trying to be

thoughtful about this,

in a world that abhors gray.

It's a black and white world
these days politically.

[FLAKE] It is, and you know,

I mentioned to you before

my wife counts our
time out of office.

First weeks, now months,

without death
threats, as a plus.

[SMITH] Would you say a word?

Since you brought that up, I
want you to talk about that.

You got death threats and
continue to get, right?

Talk about that.

[FLAKE] Well, during the
Kavanaugh hearing, obviously.

There was a man from
Chicago who called and said

"You're standing in the way
of the president's agenda.

"I'm gonna take you
and your family out."

He was just sentenced
a few weeks ago.

[SMITH] Said directly.

[FLAKE] Left the message.

[EVAN] Lordy, there was a tape.

[FLAKE] There were many
others. My wife got several

text messages to her cell phone
linked to beheading videos

with the addresses
of our children.

And then Cesar Sayoc, the
one that mailed pipe bombs

to a number of people,
when they caught him

they said, "You're all
over his hard drives."

And we found out he had
tweeted under another name

an aerial photo of my home
in Arizona with the caption,

"Senator Flake, there
are a lot of entrances

"I'll see you soon."

[SMITH] This is the world
that we're living in.

[FLAKE] It is, and many of
those were from the right,

from Trump supporters.

There was somebody who came to

what he thought was my
church, or my congregation

it was actually another, he
went to three in the same day

with a rifle scope, just
the scope, looking around

and asking for where I
was. He had just attended

a Trump rally the day
before, and was excited.

But then there are some
from the other side.

I was on the baseball
field that morning

where somebody who had
a list of Republicans

he wanted to take out.
So it's not a place

where we want to be right
now, and we've gotta move

the other direction,
and it's incumbent upon

leaders to defuse the
situation where they can.

And some of it's gonna go on
regardless but we're at a place

where we really need to
turn down the volume.

[SMITH] How do you fix it,

because we have a
couple minutes left.

What do you do? As
a practical matter

who's gonna want to
go into public office

under the current circumstances?

[FLAKE] That's what
worries me, as well.

We're driving a lot
of good people off

who would otherwise do it.

One, it's leadership
from the top.

It's difficult when
you have a leader

who takes advantage
of those divisions

that are already there, he
didn't create a lot of them

but he's taken
advantage of them.

So, first and foremost,
you have to have somebody

that's willing to do that.

That's a necessary but probably
not sufficient condition

but others as well, I
think on the left certainly

we've seen a move
to the extreme there

or the feeling that you
have to match the rhetoric

and that that worked
for the president

maybe we should do it as well.

[SMITH] Yeah. You're
done in office,

in elective office?

[FLAKE] You never say never,
my wife's not listening I hope.

(audience laughing)

[SMITH] We may be on in
Arizona, so be careful

what you say next
could be important.

[FLAKE] You know, like I said,

I left not because I was
down on the institution.

We have a great system
of government here.

When one party goes too
far, the pendulum swings.

And we've experienced that
over my time in office

a number of times. I've been
in and out of the majority.

It's more fun in the
majority, I have to say.

But that pendulum swings.
When you degrade the

political culture I think,
as we have been doing

for the past few years, I'm
not sure how elastic that is.

I'm not sure if that
pendulum will swing back

as quickly, if at all, and
that's what worries me.

But I've not sworn off office,

but I think I wanna wait

til the fever cools a little.

[SMITH] So will you
publicly engage with

the next presidential campaign?

[FLAKE] I'll see, I'll see.

I would like to support
a Republican candidate.

I'm a conservative,
I want to see a more

conservative candidate
than any of the Democrats

that are running
right now, but--

[SMITH] The percentage
chance that you will endorse

the president since
he is almost certainly

going to be the nominee,
is what percentage chance?

[FLAKE] None.
[SMITH] Zero.

[FLAKE] I couldn't
support him last time

and I certainly--

[SMITH] Can't support him now.

(audience clapping)

So is there any chance
if the alternative

presented to you is a Democrat.

[FLAKE] Yes.

[SMITH] President
Trump and a Democrat.

[FLAKE] Yes.

[SMITH] Which
Democrats do you like?

[FLAKE] Well, obviously you
want someone who can appeal

to a broader electorate, and
is more toward the center.

And there are a number of them.

(audience and Jeff laughing)

I think I'm about out of time.

[SMITH] No, no, no, no, no.

Oh no, we have time.

(audience laughing)

You got a name?

[FLAKE] Certainly, and
I'm not endorsing anyone

and they wouldn't
want my endorsement

right now in a primary.

People like Michael Bennet.
I worked with Michael Bennet.

I was on the Gang of Eight
on the immigration issue.

He is a hard-working good man

and he's more toward the center.

Certainly Joe Biden can appeal
to a broader electorate.

We need somebody who
will state, and he has,

that Republicans need
to work with Democrats

and Democrats with Republicans.

It's nice to hear somebody
say that during a primary.

And he gets ridiculed for
it, but he's still saying it.

[SMITH] As difficult
as it is to say it

'cause you know the consequences
of saying it in a primary

are significant. You think
it's the right answer?

[FLAKE] It is. And Cory Booker.

He's reached across the aisle

a lot more than he wants
to talk about right now

in a primary.

[SMITH] Not so good
in a primary, yeah.

[FLAKE] So I do hope that that's
where the Democratic Party

gravitates, and there's
this inclination

which is well-founded,
and I hope they follow it

is "We want somebody who
can beat the president."

Who can appeal to a
lot of independents

and some moderate Republicans.

[SMITH] And that's the
goal for you, as well.

[FLAKE] Yeah.

[SMITH] Change horses?
[FLAKE] Yes.

[SMITH] Change
horses, all right.

Senator Flake, thank you
so much for your time.

Good to be with you.

[FLAKE] Thanks for having me.

[SMITH] Good luck
with everything.

Jeff Flake.

(audience cheering)

[SMITH] We'd love to have
you join us in the studio.

Visit our website at
klru.org/overheard

to find invitations to
interviews, Q&As with

our audience and guests, and
an archive of past episodes.

[FLAKE] Mitch McConnell,
when I came to the Senate,

was always known as
an institutionalist

who would protect the
institution, at least

and stand up for it.

And I have to say, and I
don't have anything against

Mitch McConnell, but
I have not seen that

part of who he was
for a while now.

[ANNOUNCER] Funding for
Overheard with Evan Smith

is provided in part
by Hillco Partners

a Texas government
affairs consultancy.

Claire and Carl Stuart and by

Laura and John Beckworth,
Hobby Family Foundation.

(chimes)