WEBVTT 00:01.433 --> 00:02.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FEMALE ANNOUNCER] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 00:02.666 --> 00:05.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is provided in part by Hillco Partners 00:05.866 --> 00:08.600 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy. 00:08.600 --> 00:11.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Claire and Carl Stuart and by 00:11.300 --> 00:14.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Laura and John Beckworth, Hobby Family Foundation. 00:16.433 --> 00:17.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith, 00:17.666 --> 00:19.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he spent 18 years as a Republican 00:19.300 --> 00:21.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% member of Congress from Arizona, including six 00:21.900 --> 00:23.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as a United States Senator. 00:23.500 --> 00:26.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's Jeff Flake, this is Overheard. 00:26.000 --> 00:27.500 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% (music) 00:27.500 --> 00:30.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn 00:30.400 --> 00:31.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or is this about the experience 00:31.933 --> 00:33.500 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% of not have been taught properly? 00:33.500 --> 00:36.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% How have you avoided what has befallen other nations 00:36.666 --> 00:37.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in Africa and elsewhere? 00:37.700 --> 00:39.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You can that he made his own bed 00:39.100 --> 00:40.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but you caused him to sleep in it. 00:40.633 --> 00:43.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You saw a problem and over time, took it on and -- 00:43.933 --> 00:47.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 00:47.066 --> 00:48.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Are you gonna run for president? 00:48.366 --> 00:50.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think I just got an F from you, actually. 00:50.133 --> 00:51.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is Overheard. 00:51.866 --> 00:56.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience cheering) 00:57.733 --> 00:58.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Senator Flake, welcome. 00:58.700 --> 00:59.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [JEFF FLAKE] Good to be here. 00:59.966 --> 01:01.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Thank you very much for being here. 01:01.233 --> 01:02.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What the hell is going on in Washington? 01:02.166 --> 01:03.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% (audience and Jeff laughing) 01:03.433 --> 01:05.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Man, last year at this time, 01:05.566 --> 01:07.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% at the time of your festival 01:07.100 --> 01:08.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% were the Kavanaugh hearings. 01:08.300 --> 01:09.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Right, yeah. 01:09.133 --> 01:10.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [FLAKE] I remember them. 01:10.600 --> 01:12.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] And this year says to last year, "Hold my beer." 01:12.266 --> 01:13.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing). 01:13.200 --> 01:14.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [FLAKE] It's unbelievable. 01:14.466 --> 01:16.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] So again, the frame for everybody is 01:16.466 --> 01:18.433 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% as we're sitting here today, the Director of National 01:18.433 --> 01:21.300 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% Intelligence is testifying before the United States 01:21.300 --> 01:22.666 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% House Intelligence Committee. 01:22.666 --> 01:26.233 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% The whistleblower report on the Ukraine call 01:26.233 --> 01:27.900 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% the president's call to the president of Ukraine, 01:27.900 --> 01:29.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% our president's call to their president, 01:29.400 --> 01:33.200 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% has just been released, we're in the middle of the storm. 01:33.200 --> 01:34.566 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% They eye of the hurricane, right? 01:34.566 --> 01:36.466 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% So we still don't know where this is all going. 01:36.466 --> 01:38.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [FLAKE] We don't. 01:38.000 --> 01:40.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] And you're no longer in Congress, so you have no 01:40.200 --> 01:42.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% special knowledge of this, do you? 01:42.000 --> 01:42.966 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [FLAKE] I don't. 01:42.966 --> 01:44.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Are you glad or sorry? 01:44.566 --> 01:46.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 01:46.200 --> 01:48.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] I had to say, when I was on a plane 01:48.433 --> 01:51.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and trying to get a little meager wifi 01:51.700 --> 01:55.500 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% to see what was going on, part of me was saying 01:55.500 --> 01:57.700 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% "I've gotta follow this," and part of me was saying 01:57.700 --> 01:59.233 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% "I don't have to follow this." 01:59.233 --> 02:00.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] No, "I no longer have to do this anymore." 02:00.533 --> 02:03.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So what you know of what has happened 02:03.000 --> 02:05.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% what do you make of it? 02:05.600 --> 02:09.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] As a Republican, I can't understand how 02:09.133 --> 02:12.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% some of my colleagues aren't more 02:12.733 --> 02:14.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% up in arms about it, frankly. 02:14.233 --> 02:19.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience applauding) 02:19.233 --> 02:23.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% For the president to call the president of another country 02:23.500 --> 02:27.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and ask them to do a favor, which is to look in 02:27.400 --> 02:31.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and investigate his political opponent. 02:31.100 --> 02:34.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That just in itself ought to be something 02:34.066 --> 02:36.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we ought to be completely disturbed about. 02:36.900 --> 02:39.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Second, if you removed all that from that conversation 02:39.733 --> 02:42.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to hear him talk about other world leaders there. 02:42.233 --> 02:44.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "Angela Merkel, she's not doing anything for Ukraine." 02:44.866 --> 02:49.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% In truth she is, but just that you would talk that way. 02:49.100 --> 02:52.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Or a former ambassador, "What a terrible person she is." 02:52.166 --> 02:56.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, it's just we're in a whole new world now 02:56.800 --> 02:57.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and I think it's-- 02:57.766 --> 02:59.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Are you surprised? 02:59.033 --> 03:01.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You served in the Senate for a couple of years 03:01.566 --> 03:04.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with this president in the White House, are you surprised? 03:04.166 --> 03:06.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] I'm not surprised by his actions, no. 03:06.533 --> 03:11.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But I'm continually surprised that there isn't more outrage 03:11.300 --> 03:14.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on the right, from Conservatives. 03:14.100 --> 03:15.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Would you be saying this 03:15.033 --> 03:16.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% if you were still in Congress? 03:16.533 --> 03:19.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Everybody is the Tom Brady of Monday morning quarterbacks. 03:19.400 --> 03:21.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% When the game is over, everybody has the answer. 03:21.833 --> 03:24.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Would you be saying it when you were in Congress? 03:24.033 --> 03:26.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] I had the advantage of announcing that I wasn't 03:26.433 --> 03:29.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% running for reelection 15 months before I left 03:29.100 --> 03:32.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% so I was able to talk, but I said a number of times 03:32.833 --> 03:35.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if I was trying to run for reelection 03:35.600 --> 03:37.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there's no way I could have said what I said. 03:37.733 --> 03:39.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Not in this environment. 03:39.300 --> 03:42.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% This is the president's party, the Republican Party. 03:42.266 --> 03:43.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Period. [FLAKE] It is, it is. 03:43.333 --> 03:44.833 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% [SMITH] It's the Trump Party now. 03:44.833 --> 03:48.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] It is, and every one of my colleagues knows it 03:48.800 --> 03:51.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and those who are up for reelection, they understand 03:51.266 --> 03:56.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that just one statement, one tweet or whatever 03:56.000 --> 03:59.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that criticizes the president might get them a primary. 03:59.066 --> 04:00.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And that's unfortunate. 04:00.433 --> 04:02.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] At a minimum, it gets you a nickname. 04:02.266 --> 04:03.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [FLAKE] Yeah, yeah. 04:03.533 --> 04:05.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] What were you, Flaky Flake? 04:05.066 --> 04:08.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Flaky Flake, which, come one. 04:08.233 --> 04:09.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Honestly, that's too easy, that's lazy. 04:09.833 --> 04:11.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He can do better than that, right? 04:11.633 --> 04:13.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Corn Flake, I mean we could probably sit here 04:13.366 --> 04:15.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and come up with better nicknames for you, actually. 04:15.100 --> 04:18.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] I grew up, my hometown was Snowflake, Arizona. 04:18.233 --> 04:19.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Snow Flake. 04:19.100 --> 04:20.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [FLAKE] I'm not kidding. 04:20.600 --> 04:21.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Come on, it was right there, he missed it. 04:21.533 --> 04:23.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [FLAKE] It was right there. 04:23.766 --> 04:26.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Do you understand why the Democrats are trying to 04:26.466 --> 04:29.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% look into the possibility of impeachment 04:29.366 --> 04:31.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or do you think that they're over their skis? 04:31.100 --> 04:32.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Again, as we sit here today. 04:32.766 --> 04:37.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] I wish that, Speaker Pelosi has held off for so long 04:37.766 --> 04:41.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I've applauded her for doing so. 04:41.566 --> 04:45.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I hope that we don't need to impeach this president. 04:45.933 --> 04:50.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I would like to see the president defeated next year 04:50.333 --> 04:52.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but I would not rather go that direction. 04:52.700 --> 04:55.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't want to get into a cycle. 04:55.666 --> 05:00.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I've lived in too many countries where instead of saying 05:00.466 --> 05:02.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% when you lose an election, "We're gonna come back 05:02.500 --> 05:05.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "with a better message, get some better messengers," 05:05.700 --> 05:09.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we'll just disqualify our opponent once they beat us. 05:09.833 --> 05:12.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that's what I'm afraid we're going to 05:12.233 --> 05:16.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% get into that cycle, we may be part way into that cycle now 05:16.400 --> 05:19.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but they're in a tough position, and I understand 05:19.333 --> 05:24.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the inclination to say, "We've got our role here. 05:24.333 --> 05:28.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "We are a co-equal branch and if we see behavior 05:28.300 --> 05:31.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "that qualifies for impeachment, it's our duty 05:31.366 --> 05:34.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "no matter what the politics are, to go through with it." 05:34.433 --> 05:35.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Because the alternative, 05:35.533 --> 05:37.000 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% if you allow the electoral system 05:37.000 --> 05:40.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to be the accountability measure, then you effectively 05:40.133 --> 05:44.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% legitimize the behavior that you consider to be impeachable 05:44.366 --> 05:46.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% if you say for the sake of process, or for the sake of 05:46.833 --> 05:48.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% democracy, "We're just gonna kick this to the voters." 05:48.833 --> 05:50.300 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Don't you? 05:50.300 --> 05:53.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] In some way, I think that that's still outweighed by 05:53.200 --> 05:56.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, we are in a divided country right now 05:56.066 --> 05:58.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and what impeachment would do, I think it would 05:58.100 --> 06:00.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% likely play to the president's benefit 06:00.833 --> 06:04.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% assuming the president is impeached but not convicted. 06:04.500 --> 06:06.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] His argument is, Brad Parscale, 06:06.333 --> 06:07.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the head of his campaign 06:07.566 --> 06:09.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and others around him have said all along 06:09.700 --> 06:12.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% basically, "Bring it, you do this you're gonna 06:12.066 --> 06:14.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "activate our base," the country is not for impeachment 06:14.766 --> 06:16.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in fact there have been polls that have showed 06:16.433 --> 06:18.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that even some Democrats don't think this is the answer. 06:18.833 --> 06:22.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% [FLAKE] Right, I think his campaign certainly feels that way 06:22.200 --> 06:24.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I think it probably would be a boost to him politically. 06:24.666 --> 06:27.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I'm not sure he wants that, and there've been signs 06:27.700 --> 06:31.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that just he doesn't 06:31.833 --> 06:34.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% want that moniker later for history, I guess. 06:34.633 --> 06:36.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] First line of his obituary, right? 06:36.566 --> 06:39.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] Yeah, and so I think that that troubles him 06:39.966 --> 06:42.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but not enough to stop some of the behavior 06:42.300 --> 06:43.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that's bringing it on. 06:43.533 --> 06:45.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Is he the reason you left? 06:45.233 --> 06:48.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Did you leave because of him or did you leave because of it? 06:49.900 --> 06:51.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [FLAKE] Well, I would have liked 06:51.333 --> 06:53.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to have stayed another term. 06:53.233 --> 06:55.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You work hard to get to the Senate. 06:55.100 --> 06:57.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Right, one and out is not normally done. 06:57.433 --> 06:59.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Yeah, it's a wonderful institution 06:59.533 --> 07:01.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% with wonderful people 07:01.100 --> 07:03.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so I wasn't down on the institution. 07:03.233 --> 07:05.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We have a good system of government here. 07:05.600 --> 07:08.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But for me, what it came down to is 07:08.100 --> 07:11.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I would have had to condone behavior I can't condone 07:11.966 --> 07:15.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or adopt positions that I simply can't adopt. 07:15.633 --> 07:19.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the bottom line for me was, I knew that I would have to 07:19.133 --> 07:22.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because every Senate race is a national race now. 07:22.300 --> 07:25.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And in Arizona, the president likes to come to Arizona. 07:25.766 --> 07:28.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I knew that I would have to stand on a campaign stage 07:28.433 --> 07:31.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with the president and be okay when people are shouting 07:31.533 --> 07:36.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Lock her up," or "Send them back," 07:36.366 --> 07:37.966 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% or be okay 07:37.966 --> 07:41.566 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% when the president was ridiculing my colleagues and friends 07:41.566 --> 07:45.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or people in my state, and I couldn't do that. 07:45.333 --> 07:46.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I just couldn't do that. 07:46.800 --> 07:49.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] So you chose to leave rather than to fight. 07:49.866 --> 07:51.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Because that's one way to interpret it. 07:51.366 --> 07:54.900 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% I'm not suggesting that you fled, but I am suggesting 07:54.900 --> 07:56.733 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% that an alternative path-- 07:56.733 --> 07:58.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Would have been to go down fighting. 07:58.633 --> 07:59.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] To allowing a bully to bully you 07:59.933 --> 08:01.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is to punch the bully in the nose. 08:01.733 --> 08:03.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Didn't your dad tell you that? 08:03.166 --> 08:05.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% My dad told me that, if a bully comes at you 08:05.966 --> 08:08.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you punch the bully in the nose, and then the bully 08:08.366 --> 08:10.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% moves down the line and bullies somebody else. 08:10.933 --> 08:13.066 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [FLAKE] Well for that, 08:13.066 --> 08:15.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't mind standing up to the president 08:15.900 --> 08:18.500 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% and challenging his positions, but it was never my style 08:18.500 --> 08:21.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and never will be to engage in the type of behavior. 08:21.600 --> 08:22.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Tit for tat. 08:22.833 --> 08:25.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Yeah, and that concerns me greatly. 08:25.533 --> 08:29.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Earlier this year when a Democrat 08:29.166 --> 08:31.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% who had won election 08:31.733 --> 08:35.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it was the gentlewoman from Michigan, Tlaib. 08:35.900 --> 08:37.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Rashida Tlaib, yeah. 08:37.166 --> 08:39.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] She had a press conference or some event 08:39.333 --> 08:42.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where she used very crude, vulgar language 08:42.700 --> 08:44.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to say we ought to impeach the president, 08:44.633 --> 08:46.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% get him out of office. 08:46.133 --> 08:48.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And since I've been very critical of the president 08:48.300 --> 08:51.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for his crude, vulgar language often 08:51.066 --> 08:54.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I thought I ought to say something, so I just Tweeted out 08:54.400 --> 08:57.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "This kind of language should have no place in politics. 08:57.166 --> 09:00.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "The fact that the president uses it should be no excuse 09:00.733 --> 09:03.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "for the rest of us. We should be better." 09:03.933 --> 09:04.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] How'd that go? 09:04.766 --> 09:07.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [FLAKE] Within two days, 09:07.733 --> 09:12.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there were 30,000 comments on that post. 09:12.300 --> 09:13.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I was what they call ratioed. 09:13.533 --> 09:15.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You have more comments than likes. 09:15.333 --> 09:17.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] The ratioing of Jeff Flake. 09:17.200 --> 09:19.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] But the overwhelming sentiment was 09:19.933 --> 09:23.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "If the president speaks this way then so must we." 09:23.433 --> 09:27.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that, we're coming to a point where we shouldn't come to 09:27.933 --> 09:32.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we shouldn't participate in that, and that's what 09:32.066 --> 09:35.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I'm concerned of. My colleagues on the Republican side 09:35.800 --> 09:38.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I understand, you don't wanna go out and respond 09:38.333 --> 09:41.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to every tweet, you can't. 09:41.500 --> 09:43.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There aren't enough hours in the day 09:43.633 --> 09:46.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you get so tired of the media. 09:46.200 --> 09:47.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Every time you get off the trolley 09:47.900 --> 09:50.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% from the Russell Building to vote there's a mob 09:50.533 --> 09:51.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% wanting to talk about-- 09:51.466 --> 09:52.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] What about the latest. 09:52.733 --> 09:55.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Yeah, and you just can't do it all. 09:55.333 --> 09:58.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But when the president goes so far sometimes 09:58.733 --> 10:02.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you ought to speak out, you ought to say something. 10:02.233 --> 10:06.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And for my colleagues, I would say today 10:06.866 --> 10:11.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you can hold your criticism of the president 10:11.833 --> 10:15.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and get through this perhaps, but don't stand on 10:15.166 --> 10:17.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a campaign stage with the president when he's 10:17.700 --> 10:21.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ridiculing your colleagues, or when people are shouting 10:21.033 --> 10:22.533 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% "Lock her up." 10:22.533 --> 10:24.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Of course, what's the alternative, though? 10:24.033 --> 10:25.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% If the president announces, "I'm coming to North Carolina 10:25.700 --> 10:27.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to campaign for Tom Tillis," your former colleague. 10:27.833 --> 10:31.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "I'm gonna come to Maine and campaign for Susan Collins." 10:31.200 --> 10:33.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% What are Tom Tillis or Susan Collins supposed to do 10:33.733 --> 10:35.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% say, "No, thanks." 10:35.033 --> 10:39.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Yeah, that's what it would take. 10:39.100 --> 10:42.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I would think that if enough people do that 10:42.366 --> 10:44.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and simply say, "We're not gonna do it," 10:44.433 --> 10:47.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% then he's gonna have to pull back. 10:47.533 --> 10:52.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But this is just not us, as Republicans. 10:52.166 --> 10:54.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% As I said, this is unfamiliar territory 10:54.133 --> 10:57.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% not just on the policy side but the politics of it, as well. 10:57.600 --> 11:00.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we can't continue to contribute to that because 11:00.800 --> 11:04.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think as a party, young people look at this 11:04.000 --> 11:06.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% millennials, and they've been I think 11:06.366 --> 11:08.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% walking away from the party for a while 11:08.566 --> 11:13.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because of I think our unwillingness as Republicans 11:13.066 --> 11:15.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for example to acknowledge climate change 11:15.366 --> 11:17.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% or some other things. 11:17.033 --> 11:20.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think now they're in a dead sprint away from the party 11:20.200 --> 11:24.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and when you look at demographics, 11:24.000 --> 11:27.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in terms of where we are nationally, 11:27.400 --> 11:30.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% George W. Bush won the presidency 11:30.200 --> 11:33.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% winning 56% of the white vote. 11:33.533 --> 11:37.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Mitt Romney got 59% of the white vote and lost. 11:37.833 --> 11:41.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Every couple of years, we are more diverse as a country 11:41.200 --> 11:44.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I believe the autopsy we did in 2012 11:44.933 --> 11:46.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% after the Romney loss 11:46.233 --> 11:49.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we have to appeal to a broader electorate. 11:49.333 --> 11:53.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But as a party, we pushed it aside and chased a populist. 11:53.466 --> 11:57.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And you can win an election here or there 11:57.466 --> 12:01.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with a populist message, you put together an odd coalition 12:01.366 --> 12:02.600 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% then go ahead. 12:02.600 --> 12:03.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] But it's not a long-term strategy. 12:03.400 --> 12:04.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [FLAKE] It's not. 12:04.933 --> 12:06.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Is it possible to be, just back to this point about 12:06.333 --> 12:07.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% millennials, I was fascinated to hear you say that. 12:07.766 --> 12:10.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Is it possible to have a conservative message on policy 12:10.033 --> 12:10.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and attract millennials? 12:10.900 --> 12:12.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [FLAKE] Yes, I think so. 12:12.166 --> 12:13.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] What is it, articulate the case. 12:13.133 --> 12:15.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [FLAKE] One, on the fiscal side. 12:15.466 --> 12:19.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think millennials look at this $22 trillion debt 12:19.033 --> 12:20.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% although nobody's paying much attention to it. 12:20.933 --> 12:23.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] I seem to remember Republicans not liking the debt 12:23.233 --> 12:26.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and now all of a sudden, this has been an extraordinary year 12:26.733 --> 12:27.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as far as that goes. 12:27.933 --> 12:28.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] But I think they look at that and say 12:28.900 --> 12:30.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "We're going to inherit this? 12:30.300 --> 12:32.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "You're not doing anything in that regard." 12:32.300 --> 12:35.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% On the climate issue, I think there are 12:35.733 --> 12:40.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% conservative policies, the carbon dividend, a carbon tax. 12:40.066 --> 12:44.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% As Republicans, the gospel we preach as conservatives 12:44.766 --> 12:46.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is, "If you don't like something 12:46.400 --> 12:48.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "you want less of something, tax it." 12:48.600 --> 12:51.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And you can do that in a way if it's revenue neutral 12:51.900 --> 12:54.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and there are a number of good proposals out there. 12:54.666 --> 12:56.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I introduced a bill when I was back in the House. 12:56.633 --> 13:01.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Introduced a similar bill in the Senate for a carbon tax 13:01.133 --> 13:02.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a revenue neutral carbon tax. 13:02.400 --> 13:03.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Well, supporting the environment 13:03.433 --> 13:04.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% actually has a legacy 13:04.666 --> 13:05.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% within the Republican Party, because after all 13:05.900 --> 13:08.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Richard Nixon who created the EPA. 13:08.100 --> 13:10.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, the reality is, your party has been 13:10.866 --> 13:13.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% pro-environment in the past. 13:13.100 --> 13:14.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] The conservative message has always been 13:14.600 --> 13:17.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% limited government, economic freedom, free trade. 13:17.566 --> 13:20.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We live in a globalized society, millennials know that 13:20.233 --> 13:23.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% better than anybody, and this notion that 13:23.033 --> 13:26.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we're gonna take a position that we have not taken 13:26.800 --> 13:30.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in the past, this protectionist, nativist view. 13:30.833 --> 13:33.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That doesn't go well with millennials. 13:33.966 --> 13:38.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think that there are messages we can come with 13:38.333 --> 13:42.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but we've gotta start with one, realizing 13:42.366 --> 13:45.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we need to have a more inclusive brand 13:45.233 --> 13:47.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we just don't have that right now. 13:47.633 --> 13:49.133 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Let's just drill down on the base 13:49.133 --> 13:51.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and see if it'll work for one more election cycle. 13:51.333 --> 13:54.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And one, I don't think it will. 13:54.133 --> 13:56.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But two, if it does, that's about it. 13:56.433 --> 13:59.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You look at the demographics here and the change 13:59.066 --> 14:02.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% here in Texas, we're experiencing the same thing in Arizona. 14:02.033 --> 14:04.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it's tough to see how this party lasts 14:04.733 --> 14:07.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and remains a political force in the future. 14:07.433 --> 14:09.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] You believe Arizona is a swing state? 14:09.666 --> 14:11.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Yeah, I think we're there. 14:11.166 --> 14:15.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% If you look at statewide, 14:15.133 --> 14:16.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% my seat went to a Democrat, 14:16.966 --> 14:19.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Kyrsten Sinema, by a couple of percentage points. 14:19.533 --> 14:20.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It wasn't that close. 14:20.800 --> 14:21.933 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 14:21.933 --> 14:23.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] We have another race coming up. 14:23.733 --> 14:25.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Same person who lost last time 14:25.166 --> 14:26.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is running again this time. 14:26.433 --> 14:27.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Exactly, and she has the position 14:27.933 --> 14:31.833 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% she's in the difficult position to try to avoid a primary 14:31.833 --> 14:34.600 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% not getting too far away from the president 14:34.600 --> 14:38.300 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% but needing to in the general, create some distance 14:38.300 --> 14:40.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% from the president, because in Arizona 14:40.966 --> 14:44.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think this is a good thing, statewide 14:44.533 --> 14:47.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the Republican Party just looks at the president 14:47.633 --> 14:49.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and says, "Not so much." 14:49.800 --> 14:53.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the base of the party, those who vote in primaries 14:53.400 --> 14:56.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that subset of a subset, are very much with the president. 14:56.333 --> 14:58.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] But maybe not to 50%, 14:58.100 --> 14:59.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% depending upon who the Democrats 14:59.400 --> 15:00.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% put up as a candidate. 15:00.600 --> 15:01.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Not even close, and I do think-- 15:01.600 --> 15:03.766 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% [SMITH] You like Senator McSally. 15:03.766 --> 15:05.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [FLAKE] I do, I do. 15:05.133 --> 15:07.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] You know her Democratic opponent, 15:07.266 --> 15:08.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Mark Kelly, the astronaut? 15:08.466 --> 15:09.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [FLAKE] I do. 15:09.733 --> 15:11.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Gabrielle Gifford's husband. 15:11.233 --> 15:12.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] Yeah, and he has the advantage, he doesn't have 15:12.666 --> 15:14.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a Democratic primary right now, probably won't. 15:14.766 --> 15:18.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He's stockpiling a lot of money, he's got a lot of 15:18.433 --> 15:20.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% support around the country, he has a name 15:20.733 --> 15:25.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and he's played politics and policy right down the middle. 15:25.700 --> 15:27.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's been very smart about that. 15:27.633 --> 15:28.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] You're gonna be for him? 15:28.633 --> 15:29.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [FLAKE] I'm sorry? 15:29.566 --> 15:30.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Will you be for him? 15:30.766 --> 15:31.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] I'm not saying that at all. 15:31.666 --> 15:33.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 15:33.166 --> 15:35.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Are you for Senator McSally? 15:36.366 --> 15:38.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] We'll see how the campaign come out. 15:38.066 --> 15:40.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 15:40.233 --> 15:41.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We're a year out. 15:41.433 --> 15:44.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] I understand that but, Senator Flake, 15:44.266 --> 15:46.166 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% you understand that you just answered the question 15:46.166 --> 15:47.866 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% whether or not you answered the question. 15:47.866 --> 15:50.433 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% I mean, if you were for Senator McSally you would say so. 15:50.433 --> 15:55.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] I don't think that every Republican ought to say 15:55.166 --> 15:57.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm only gonna vote for Republicans. 15:57.166 --> 15:59.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I famously, when Roy Moore 15:59.700 --> 16:03.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% was the candidate in Alabama 16:03.133 --> 16:06.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I wrote a check to his Democratic opponent. 16:06.733 --> 16:11.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience clapping) 16:11.233 --> 16:13.033 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And I think that that's something 16:13.033 --> 16:16.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% when you talk about millennials, and most right-thinking 16:16.966 --> 16:20.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Americans think, "You're gonna put party over country 16:20.300 --> 16:23.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "every time, no matter what 16:23.100 --> 16:26.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "and just vote right down the line? 16:26.300 --> 16:29.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] That has been the criticism of, I don't want to 16:29.033 --> 16:31.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% harp on this, as it relates to you so much 16:31.266 --> 16:32.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but you understand, because you just brought up 16:32.533 --> 16:34.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% party over country. That was a, John McCain, 16:34.400 --> 16:36.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% your late colleague in the Senate, fellow Arizonan 16:36.666 --> 16:40.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% was the exemplar of the idea of country over party. 16:40.233 --> 16:42.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That was a phrase that he popularized 16:42.033 --> 16:44.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% during his presidential race, and again 16:44.200 --> 16:46.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% during his time in the Senate. 16:46.133 --> 16:47.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There are a number of Republicans in the Senate 16:47.866 --> 16:49.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and in some ways you became fairly or unfairly 16:49.900 --> 16:54.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the poster child for this, that it's country over party 16:54.066 --> 16:56.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% until it comes time to vote, right? 16:56.833 --> 16:59.566 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% And the Kavanaugh confirmation, which was a year ago 16:59.566 --> 17:01.633 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% as we sit here, is one example of that. 17:01.633 --> 17:03.466 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% But you are often, you heard this, I'm not telling you 17:03.466 --> 17:06.033 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% something that you didn't hear, that "Jeff Flake always 17:06.033 --> 17:09.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "furrows his brow, as other Republicans do and talk about 17:09.566 --> 17:13.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "country over party until it comes time to put up." 17:13.033 --> 17:14.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% What do you say about that? 17:14.333 --> 17:15.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Well, I think Mitch McConnell 17:15.933 --> 17:17.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% would disagree with you on that. 17:17.666 --> 17:18.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Yes, he probably would. 17:18.800 --> 17:20.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [FLAKE] In terms of my votes. 17:20.666 --> 17:22.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Yeah, he probably would. 17:22.066 --> 17:24.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] For the last two months of my time in the Senate 17:24.733 --> 17:27.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I held up about 40 judges from going through 17:27.900 --> 17:29.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% until we could get a vote 17:29.866 --> 17:31.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on protecting the Mueller investigation. 17:31.733 --> 17:32.633 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 17:32.633 --> 17:34.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [FLAKE] So when I-- 17:34.700 --> 17:38.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience clapping) 17:38.066 --> 17:40.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So I am first a conservative. 17:40.633 --> 17:43.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I do want more conservative judges. 17:43.633 --> 17:47.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I've liked the fact that it has become 17:47.733 --> 17:50.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% more balanced now on the federal courts. 17:50.266 --> 17:51.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] But you're also for the rule of law. 17:51.800 --> 17:55.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] You bet, and during the Kavanaugh hearing 17:55.033 --> 17:58.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% my feeling was, and here's the problem with politics today 18:00.666 --> 18:03.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what we've come to in this place, particularly with 18:03.800 --> 18:08.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% social media as a backdrop, is a time when deliberation 18:08.500 --> 18:13.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is just about gone, because people in a position 18:13.033 --> 18:16.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that I was in, particularly if you're running for reelection 18:16.266 --> 18:19.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you make a calculation, when a big issue comes along 18:19.333 --> 18:23.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whether it's debt and deficit or gun policy 18:23.466 --> 18:26.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or climate change or Kavanaugh 18:26.433 --> 18:29.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you make a calculation, I only wanna anger one side. 18:29.466 --> 18:32.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so you rush to your tribe, 18:32.900 --> 18:35.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you declare where you are 18:35.400 --> 18:39.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and you stay there, and you never want to concede 18:39.600 --> 18:42.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that a hearing that you might be chairing 18:42.500 --> 18:47.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% might inform your vote, or that an investigation going on 18:47.300 --> 18:49.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% might influence where you are. 18:49.533 --> 18:51.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] An open mind is a liability these days. 18:51.500 --> 18:54.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Because as soon as you indicate that 18:54.066 --> 18:55.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% then all sides come in. 18:55.566 --> 18:56.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Come at you, right. 18:56.800 --> 18:58.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] And so you make a calculation, 18:58.033 --> 18:59.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I only wanna anger one side 18:59.566 --> 19:01.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% they won't really be angry because they never thought 19:01.933 --> 19:03.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I was gettable anyway. 19:03.566 --> 19:06.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that's what you seek as a politician 19:06.733 --> 19:10.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% an elected official, political safety. 19:10.533 --> 19:14.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that's not where it is. To be the man in the middle 19:14.666 --> 19:16.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is not a comfortable place to be. 19:16.433 --> 19:18.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] And is that ultimately what caused you 19:18.100 --> 19:20.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to make the decision, because I mean 19:20.333 --> 19:22.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm hearing what you're saying, it seems to me 19:22.133 --> 19:24.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that it would be difficult if you're trying to be 19:24.266 --> 19:26.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% thoughtful about this, 19:26.433 --> 19:31.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in a world that abhors gray. 19:31.366 --> 19:33.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's a black and white world these days politically. 19:33.866 --> 19:37.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [FLAKE] It is, and you know, 19:37.466 --> 19:39.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mentioned to you before 19:39.233 --> 19:42.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% my wife counts our time out of office. 19:42.966 --> 19:45.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% First weeks, now months, 19:45.800 --> 19:48.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% without death threats, as a plus. 19:48.266 --> 19:49.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Would you say a word? 19:49.800 --> 19:51.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Since you brought that up, I want you to talk about that. 19:51.433 --> 19:54.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You got death threats and continue to get, right? 19:54.933 --> 19:56.133 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Talk about that. 19:57.500 --> 20:01.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] Well, during the Kavanaugh hearing, obviously. 20:01.966 --> 20:04.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There was a man from Chicago who called and said 20:04.400 --> 20:07.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "You're standing in the way of the president's agenda. 20:07.200 --> 20:10.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "I'm gonna take you and your family out." 20:10.266 --> 20:11.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He was just sentenced a few weeks ago. 20:11.800 --> 20:12.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Said directly. 20:12.733 --> 20:15.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [FLAKE] Left the message. 20:15.566 --> 20:16.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [EVAN] Lordy, there was a tape. 20:18.466 --> 20:20.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] There were many others. My wife got several 20:20.933 --> 20:25.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% text messages to her cell phone linked to beheading videos 20:25.733 --> 20:29.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with the addresses of our children. 20:29.200 --> 20:33.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And then Cesar Sayoc, the one that mailed pipe bombs 20:33.733 --> 20:36.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to a number of people, when they caught him 20:36.900 --> 20:40.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they said, "You're all over his hard drives." 20:40.200 --> 20:43.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we found out he had tweeted under another name 20:43.500 --> 20:47.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% an aerial photo of my home in Arizona with the caption, 20:47.800 --> 20:49.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Senator Flake, there are a lot of entrances 20:49.700 --> 20:52.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% "I'll see you soon." 20:52.666 --> 20:54.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] This is the world that we're living in. 20:54.233 --> 20:58.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] It is, and many of those were from the right, 20:58.766 --> 21:01.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% from Trump supporters. 21:01.333 --> 21:04.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There was somebody who came to 21:04.500 --> 21:07.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what he thought was my church, or my congregation 21:07.033 --> 21:10.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it was actually another, he went to three in the same day 21:10.100 --> 21:13.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with a rifle scope, just the scope, looking around 21:13.233 --> 21:16.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and asking for where I was. He had just attended 21:16.033 --> 21:19.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a Trump rally the day before, and was excited. 21:19.266 --> 21:21.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But then there are some from the other side. 21:21.666 --> 21:25.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I was on the baseball field that morning 21:25.500 --> 21:28.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where somebody who had a list of Republicans 21:28.066 --> 21:33.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he wanted to take out. So it's not a place 21:34.533 --> 21:35.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% where we want to be right now, and we've gotta move 21:35.900 --> 21:38.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the other direction, and it's incumbent upon 21:38.700 --> 21:42.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% leaders to defuse the situation where they can. 21:42.933 --> 21:46.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And some of it's gonna go on regardless but we're at a place 21:46.766 --> 21:49.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where we really need to turn down the volume. 21:49.166 --> 21:50.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] How do you fix it, 21:50.433 --> 21:51.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because we have a couple minutes left. 21:51.733 --> 21:53.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What do you do? As a practical matter 21:53.233 --> 21:55.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who's gonna want to go into public office 21:55.266 --> 21:56.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% under the current circumstances? 21:56.566 --> 21:58.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] That's what worries me, as well. 21:58.033 --> 22:00.266 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% We're driving a lot of good people off 22:00.266 --> 22:02.266 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% who would otherwise do it. 22:02.266 --> 22:05.566 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% One, it's leadership from the top. 22:05.566 --> 22:07.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's difficult when you have a leader 22:07.666 --> 22:11.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who takes advantage of those divisions 22:11.333 --> 22:13.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that are already there, he didn't create a lot of them 22:13.800 --> 22:16.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but he's taken advantage of them. 22:16.200 --> 22:18.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, first and foremost, you have to have somebody 22:18.433 --> 22:19.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that's willing to do that. 22:19.833 --> 22:23.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That's a necessary but probably not sufficient condition 22:23.000 --> 22:27.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but others as well, I think on the left certainly 22:27.500 --> 22:30.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we've seen a move to the extreme there 22:30.166 --> 22:34.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or the feeling that you have to match the rhetoric 22:34.533 --> 22:36.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and that that worked for the president 22:36.300 --> 22:37.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% maybe we should do it as well. 22:37.833 --> 22:41.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Yeah. You're done in office, 22:41.900 --> 22:43.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in elective office? 22:43.466 --> 22:45.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] You never say never, my wife's not listening I hope. 22:45.700 --> 22:47.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 22:47.200 --> 22:49.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] We may be on in Arizona, so be careful 22:49.333 --> 22:51.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what you say next could be important. 22:51.166 --> 22:53.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [FLAKE] You know, like I said, 22:53.800 --> 22:56.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I left not because I was down on the institution. 22:56.833 --> 23:00.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We have a great system of government here. 23:00.166 --> 23:03.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% When one party goes too far, the pendulum swings. 23:03.966 --> 23:06.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we've experienced that over my time in office 23:06.333 --> 23:09.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a number of times. I've been in and out of the majority. 23:09.266 --> 23:11.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's more fun in the majority, I have to say. 23:11.200 --> 23:15.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But that pendulum swings. When you degrade the 23:15.266 --> 23:18.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% political culture I think, as we have been doing 23:18.233 --> 23:22.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for the past few years, I'm not sure how elastic that is. 23:22.033 --> 23:25.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm not sure if that pendulum will swing back 23:25.266 --> 23:30.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as quickly, if at all, and that's what worries me. 23:30.233 --> 23:33.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But I've not sworn off office, 23:33.966 --> 23:35.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but I think I wanna wait 23:35.900 --> 23:37.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% til the fever cools a little. 23:37.166 --> 23:40.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] So will you publicly engage with 23:40.000 --> 23:41.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the next presidential campaign? 23:41.033 --> 23:42.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [FLAKE] I'll see, I'll see. 23:42.500 --> 23:44.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I would like to support a Republican candidate. 23:44.733 --> 23:46.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm a conservative, I want to see a more 23:46.500 --> 23:49.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% conservative candidate than any of the Democrats 23:49.100 --> 23:51.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% that are running right now, but-- 23:51.433 --> 23:53.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] The percentage chance that you will endorse 23:53.133 --> 23:54.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the president since he is almost certainly 23:54.733 --> 23:57.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% going to be the nominee, is what percentage chance? 23:57.233 --> 23:58.533 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% [FLAKE] None. [SMITH] Zero. 23:58.533 --> 24:00.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] I couldn't support him last time 24:00.133 --> 24:01.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and I certainly-- 24:01.066 --> 24:01.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Can't support him now. 24:01.866 --> 24:04.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience clapping) 24:04.100 --> 24:06.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So is there any chance if the alternative 24:06.066 --> 24:08.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% presented to you is a Democrat. 24:08.233 --> 24:09.433 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [FLAKE] Yes. 24:09.433 --> 24:10.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] President Trump and a Democrat. 24:10.100 --> 24:11.233 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [FLAKE] Yes. 24:11.233 --> 24:12.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Which Democrats do you like? 24:12.766 --> 24:14.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] Well, obviously you want someone who can appeal 24:14.266 --> 24:17.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to a broader electorate, and is more toward the center. 24:17.866 --> 24:19.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And there are a number of them. 24:19.900 --> 24:23.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% (audience and Jeff laughing) 24:23.000 --> 24:23.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think I'm about out of time. 24:23.933 --> 24:24.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] No, no, no, no, no. 24:24.933 --> 24:26.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Oh no, we have time. 24:26.266 --> 24:28.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 24:28.533 --> 24:29.766 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% You got a name? 24:29.766 --> 24:32.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [FLAKE] Certainly, and I'm not endorsing anyone 24:32.733 --> 24:33.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they wouldn't want my endorsement 24:33.833 --> 24:36.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% right now in a primary. 24:36.166 --> 24:39.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% People like Michael Bennet. I worked with Michael Bennet. 24:39.000 --> 24:41.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I was on the Gang of Eight on the immigration issue. 24:41.233 --> 24:43.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He is a hard-working good man 24:43.433 --> 24:46.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and he's more toward the center. 24:46.766 --> 24:50.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Certainly Joe Biden can appeal to a broader electorate. 24:50.066 --> 24:54.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We need somebody who will state, and he has, 24:54.533 --> 24:57.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that Republicans need to work with Democrats 24:57.400 --> 24:58.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Democrats with Republicans. 24:58.933 --> 25:02.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's nice to hear somebody say that during a primary. 25:02.533 --> 25:06.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And he gets ridiculed for it, but he's still saying it. 25:06.000 --> 25:08.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] As difficult as it is to say it 25:08.766 --> 25:11.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% 'cause you know the consequences of saying it in a primary 25:11.433 --> 25:13.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% are significant. You think it's the right answer? 25:13.666 --> 25:16.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [FLAKE] It is. And Cory Booker. 25:16.166 --> 25:17.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's reached across the aisle 25:17.600 --> 25:19.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a lot more than he wants to talk about right now 25:19.700 --> 25:20.966 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in a primary. 25:20.966 --> 25:22.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Not so good in a primary, yeah. 25:22.400 --> 25:26.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] So I do hope that that's where the Democratic Party 25:26.466 --> 25:29.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% gravitates, and there's this inclination 25:29.600 --> 25:32.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which is well-founded, and I hope they follow it 25:32.966 --> 25:35.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is "We want somebody who can beat the president." 25:35.500 --> 25:38.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Who can appeal to a lot of independents 25:38.066 --> 25:39.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and some moderate Republicans. 25:39.833 --> 25:41.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] And that's the goal for you, as well. 25:41.300 --> 25:42.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [FLAKE] Yeah. 25:42.400 --> 25:43.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Change horses? [FLAKE] Yes. 25:43.600 --> 25:44.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Change horses, all right. 25:44.833 --> 25:45.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Senator Flake, thank you so much for your time. 25:45.766 --> 25:46.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Good to be with you. 25:46.700 --> 25:47.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [FLAKE] Thanks for having me. 25:47.933 --> 25:48.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Good luck with everything. 25:48.633 --> 25:49.433 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Jeff Flake. 25:49.433 --> 25:51.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience cheering) 25:51.600 --> 25:53.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:53.833 --> 25:57.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Visit our website at klru.org/overheard 25:57.533 --> 26:00.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with 26:00.766 --> 26:04.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. 26:04.500 --> 26:07.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FLAKE] Mitch McConnell, when I came to the Senate, 26:07.600 --> 26:10.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% was always known as an institutionalist 26:10.200 --> 26:13.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who would protect the institution, at least 26:13.633 --> 26:15.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and stand up for it. 26:15.466 --> 26:20.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I have to say, and I don't have anything against 26:20.233 --> 26:23.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Mitch McConnell, but I have not seen that 26:23.366 --> 26:26.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% part of who he was for a while now. 26:26.633 --> 26:28.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [ANNOUNCER] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 26:28.700 --> 26:31.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is provided in part by Hillco Partners 26:31.966 --> 26:34.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy. 26:34.700 --> 26:37.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Claire and Carl Stuart and by 26:37.400 --> 26:40.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Laura and John Beckworth, Hobby Family Foundation. 26:42.366 --> 26:45.033 align:left position:40% line:5% size:50% (chimes)