1 00:00:01,433 --> 00:00:02,666 [FEMALE ANNOUNCER] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 2 00:00:02,666 --> 00:00:05,866 is provided in part by Hillco Partners 3 00:00:05,866 --> 00:00:08,600 a Texas government affairs consultancy. 4 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,300 Claire and Carl Stuart and by 5 00:00:11,300 --> 00:00:14,466 Laura and John Beckworth, Hobby Family Foundation. 6 00:00:16,433 --> 00:00:17,666 [EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith, 7 00:00:17,666 --> 00:00:19,300 he spent 18 years as a Republican 8 00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:21,900 member of Congress from Arizona, including six 9 00:00:21,900 --> 00:00:23,500 as a United States Senator. 10 00:00:23,500 --> 00:00:26,000 He's Jeff Flake, this is Overheard. 11 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:27,500 (music) 12 00:00:27,500 --> 00:00:30,400 Let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn 13 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:31,933 or is this about the experience 14 00:00:31,933 --> 00:00:33,500 of not have been taught properly? 15 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:36,666 How have you avoided what has befallen other nations 16 00:00:36,666 --> 00:00:37,700 in Africa and elsewhere? 17 00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:39,100 You can that he made his own bed 18 00:00:39,100 --> 00:00:40,633 but you caused him to sleep in it. 19 00:00:40,633 --> 00:00:43,933 You saw a problem and over time, took it on and -- 20 00:00:43,933 --> 00:00:47,066 Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 21 00:00:47,066 --> 00:00:48,366 Are you gonna run for president? 22 00:00:48,366 --> 00:00:50,133 I think I just got an F from you, actually. 23 00:00:50,133 --> 00:00:51,866 This is Overheard. 24 00:00:51,866 --> 00:00:56,833 (audience cheering) 25 00:00:57,733 --> 00:00:58,700 [SMITH] Senator Flake, welcome. 26 00:00:58,700 --> 00:00:59,966 [JEFF FLAKE] Good to be here. 27 00:00:59,966 --> 00:01:01,233 [SMITH] Thank you very much for being here. 28 00:01:01,233 --> 00:01:02,166 What the hell is going on in Washington? 29 00:01:02,166 --> 00:01:03,433 (audience and Jeff laughing) 30 00:01:03,433 --> 00:01:05,566 [FLAKE] Man, last year at this time, 31 00:01:05,566 --> 00:01:07,100 at the time of your festival 32 00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:08,300 were the Kavanaugh hearings. 33 00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:09,133 [SMITH] Right, yeah. 34 00:01:09,133 --> 00:01:10,600 [FLAKE] I remember them. 35 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,266 [SMITH] And this year says to last year, "Hold my beer." 36 00:01:12,266 --> 00:01:13,200 (audience laughing). 37 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:14,466 [FLAKE] It's unbelievable. 38 00:01:14,466 --> 00:01:16,466 [SMITH] So again, the frame for everybody is 39 00:01:16,466 --> 00:01:18,433 as we're sitting here today, the Director of National 40 00:01:18,433 --> 00:01:21,300 Intelligence is testifying before the United States 41 00:01:21,300 --> 00:01:22,666 House Intelligence Committee. 42 00:01:22,666 --> 00:01:26,233 The whistleblower report on the Ukraine call 43 00:01:26,233 --> 00:01:27,900 the president's call to the president of Ukraine, 44 00:01:27,900 --> 00:01:29,400 our president's call to their president, 45 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,200 has just been released, we're in the middle of the storm. 46 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:34,566 They eye of the hurricane, right? 47 00:01:34,566 --> 00:01:36,466 So we still don't know where this is all going. 48 00:01:36,466 --> 00:01:38,000 [FLAKE] We don't. 49 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,200 [SMITH] And you're no longer in Congress, so you have no 50 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,000 special knowledge of this, do you? 51 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:42,966 [FLAKE] I don't. 52 00:01:42,966 --> 00:01:44,566 [SMITH] Are you glad or sorry? 53 00:01:44,566 --> 00:01:46,200 (audience laughing) 54 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,433 [FLAKE] I had to say, when I was on a plane 55 00:01:48,433 --> 00:01:51,700 and trying to get a little meager wifi 56 00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:55,500 to see what was going on, part of me was saying 57 00:01:55,500 --> 00:01:57,700 "I've gotta follow this," and part of me was saying 58 00:01:57,700 --> 00:01:59,233 "I don't have to follow this." 59 00:01:59,233 --> 00:02:00,533 [SMITH] No, "I no longer have to do this anymore." 60 00:02:00,533 --> 00:02:03,000 So what you know of what has happened 61 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,600 what do you make of it? 62 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,133 [FLAKE] As a Republican, I can't understand how 63 00:02:09,133 --> 00:02:12,733 some of my colleagues aren't more 64 00:02:12,733 --> 00:02:14,233 up in arms about it, frankly. 65 00:02:14,233 --> 00:02:19,233 (audience applauding) 66 00:02:19,233 --> 00:02:23,500 For the president to call the president of another country 67 00:02:23,500 --> 00:02:27,400 and ask them to do a favor, which is to look in 68 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,100 and investigate his political opponent. 69 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:34,066 That just in itself ought to be something 70 00:02:34,066 --> 00:02:36,900 that we ought to be completely disturbed about. 71 00:02:36,900 --> 00:02:39,733 Second, if you removed all that from that conversation 72 00:02:39,733 --> 00:02:42,233 to hear him talk about other world leaders there. 73 00:02:42,233 --> 00:02:44,866 "Angela Merkel, she's not doing anything for Ukraine." 74 00:02:44,866 --> 00:02:49,100 In truth she is, but just that you would talk that way. 75 00:02:49,100 --> 00:02:52,166 Or a former ambassador, "What a terrible person she is." 76 00:02:52,166 --> 00:02:56,800 I mean, it's just we're in a whole new world now 77 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:57,766 and I think it's-- 78 00:02:57,766 --> 00:02:59,033 [SMITH] Are you surprised? 79 00:02:59,033 --> 00:03:01,566 You served in the Senate for a couple of years 80 00:03:01,566 --> 00:03:04,166 with this president in the White House, are you surprised? 81 00:03:04,166 --> 00:03:06,533 [FLAKE] I'm not surprised by his actions, no. 82 00:03:06,533 --> 00:03:11,300 But I'm continually surprised that there isn't more outrage 83 00:03:11,300 --> 00:03:14,100 on the right, from Conservatives. 84 00:03:14,100 --> 00:03:15,033 [SMITH] Would you be saying this 85 00:03:15,033 --> 00:03:16,533 if you were still in Congress? 86 00:03:16,533 --> 00:03:19,400 Everybody is the Tom Brady of Monday morning quarterbacks. 87 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,833 When the game is over, everybody has the answer. 88 00:03:21,833 --> 00:03:24,033 Would you be saying it when you were in Congress? 89 00:03:24,033 --> 00:03:26,433 [FLAKE] I had the advantage of announcing that I wasn't 90 00:03:26,433 --> 00:03:29,100 running for reelection 15 months before I left 91 00:03:29,100 --> 00:03:32,833 so I was able to talk, but I said a number of times 92 00:03:32,833 --> 00:03:35,600 if I was trying to run for reelection 93 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,733 there's no way I could have said what I said. 94 00:03:37,733 --> 00:03:39,300 Not in this environment. 95 00:03:39,300 --> 00:03:42,266 This is the president's party, the Republican Party. 96 00:03:42,266 --> 00:03:43,333 [SMITH] Period. [FLAKE] It is, it is. 97 00:03:43,333 --> 00:03:44,833 [SMITH] It's the Trump Party now. 98 00:03:44,833 --> 00:03:48,800 [FLAKE] It is, and every one of my colleagues knows it 99 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,266 and those who are up for reelection, they understand 100 00:03:51,266 --> 00:03:56,000 that just one statement, one tweet or whatever 101 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,066 that criticizes the president might get them a primary. 102 00:03:59,066 --> 00:04:00,433 And that's unfortunate. 103 00:04:00,433 --> 00:04:02,266 [SMITH] At a minimum, it gets you a nickname. 104 00:04:02,266 --> 00:04:03,533 [FLAKE] Yeah, yeah. 105 00:04:03,533 --> 00:04:05,066 [SMITH] What were you, Flaky Flake? 106 00:04:05,066 --> 00:04:08,233 [FLAKE] Flaky Flake, which, come one. 107 00:04:08,233 --> 00:04:09,833 [SMITH] Honestly, that's too easy, that's lazy. 108 00:04:09,833 --> 00:04:11,633 He can do better than that, right? 109 00:04:11,633 --> 00:04:13,366 Corn Flake, I mean we could probably sit here 110 00:04:13,366 --> 00:04:15,100 and come up with better nicknames for you, actually. 111 00:04:15,100 --> 00:04:18,233 [FLAKE] I grew up, my hometown was Snowflake, Arizona. 112 00:04:18,233 --> 00:04:19,100 [SMITH] Snow Flake. 113 00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:20,600 [FLAKE] I'm not kidding. 114 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:21,533 [SMITH] Come on, it was right there, he missed it. 115 00:04:21,533 --> 00:04:23,766 [FLAKE] It was right there. 116 00:04:23,766 --> 00:04:26,466 [SMITH] Do you understand why the Democrats are trying to 117 00:04:26,466 --> 00:04:29,366 look into the possibility of impeachment 118 00:04:29,366 --> 00:04:31,100 or do you think that they're over their skis? 119 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:32,766 Again, as we sit here today. 120 00:04:32,766 --> 00:04:37,766 [FLAKE] I wish that, Speaker Pelosi has held off for so long 121 00:04:37,766 --> 00:04:41,566 and I've applauded her for doing so. 122 00:04:41,566 --> 00:04:45,933 I hope that we don't need to impeach this president. 123 00:04:45,933 --> 00:04:50,333 I would like to see the president defeated next year 124 00:04:50,333 --> 00:04:52,700 but I would not rather go that direction. 125 00:04:52,700 --> 00:04:55,666 I don't want to get into a cycle. 126 00:04:55,666 --> 00:05:00,466 I've lived in too many countries where instead of saying 127 00:05:00,466 --> 00:05:02,500 when you lose an election, "We're gonna come back 128 00:05:02,500 --> 00:05:05,700 "with a better message, get some better messengers," 129 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:09,833 that we'll just disqualify our opponent once they beat us. 130 00:05:09,833 --> 00:05:12,233 And that's what I'm afraid we're going to 131 00:05:12,233 --> 00:05:16,400 get into that cycle, we may be part way into that cycle now 132 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,333 but they're in a tough position, and I understand 133 00:05:19,333 --> 00:05:24,333 the inclination to say, "We've got our role here. 134 00:05:24,333 --> 00:05:28,300 "We are a co-equal branch and if we see behavior 135 00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:31,366 "that qualifies for impeachment, it's our duty 136 00:05:31,366 --> 00:05:34,433 "no matter what the politics are, to go through with it." 137 00:05:34,433 --> 00:05:35,533 [SMITH] Because the alternative, 138 00:05:35,533 --> 00:05:37,000 if you allow the electoral system 139 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,133 to be the accountability measure, then you effectively 140 00:05:40,133 --> 00:05:44,366 legitimize the behavior that you consider to be impeachable 141 00:05:44,366 --> 00:05:46,833 if you say for the sake of process, or for the sake of 142 00:05:46,833 --> 00:05:48,833 democracy, "We're just gonna kick this to the voters." 143 00:05:48,833 --> 00:05:50,300 Don't you? 144 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:53,200 [FLAKE] In some way, I think that that's still outweighed by 145 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,066 I mean, we are in a divided country right now 146 00:05:56,066 --> 00:05:58,100 and what impeachment would do, I think it would 147 00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:00,833 likely play to the president's benefit 148 00:06:00,833 --> 00:06:04,500 assuming the president is impeached but not convicted. 149 00:06:04,500 --> 00:06:06,333 [SMITH] His argument is, Brad Parscale, 150 00:06:06,333 --> 00:06:07,566 the head of his campaign 151 00:06:07,566 --> 00:06:09,700 and others around him have said all along 152 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:12,066 basically, "Bring it, you do this you're gonna 153 00:06:12,066 --> 00:06:14,766 "activate our base," the country is not for impeachment 154 00:06:14,766 --> 00:06:16,433 in fact there have been polls that have showed 155 00:06:16,433 --> 00:06:18,833 that even some Democrats don't think this is the answer. 156 00:06:18,833 --> 00:06:22,200 [FLAKE] Right, I think his campaign certainly feels that way 157 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,666 and I think it probably would be a boost to him politically. 158 00:06:24,666 --> 00:06:27,700 I'm not sure he wants that, and there've been signs 159 00:06:27,700 --> 00:06:31,833 that just he doesn't 160 00:06:31,833 --> 00:06:34,633 want that moniker later for history, I guess. 161 00:06:34,633 --> 00:06:36,566 [SMITH] First line of his obituary, right? 162 00:06:36,566 --> 00:06:39,966 [FLAKE] Yeah, and so I think that that troubles him 163 00:06:39,966 --> 00:06:42,300 but not enough to stop some of the behavior 164 00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:43,533 that's bringing it on. 165 00:06:43,533 --> 00:06:45,233 [SMITH] Is he the reason you left? 166 00:06:45,233 --> 00:06:48,866 Did you leave because of him or did you leave because of it? 167 00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:51,333 [FLAKE] Well, I would have liked 168 00:06:51,333 --> 00:06:53,233 to have stayed another term. 169 00:06:53,233 --> 00:06:55,100 You work hard to get to the Senate. 170 00:06:55,100 --> 00:06:57,433 [SMITH] Right, one and out is not normally done. 171 00:06:57,433 --> 00:06:59,533 [FLAKE] Yeah, it's a wonderful institution 172 00:06:59,533 --> 00:07:01,100 with wonderful people 173 00:07:01,100 --> 00:07:03,233 so I wasn't down on the institution. 174 00:07:03,233 --> 00:07:05,600 We have a good system of government here. 175 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,100 But for me, what it came down to is 176 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:11,966 I would have had to condone behavior I can't condone 177 00:07:11,966 --> 00:07:15,633 or adopt positions that I simply can't adopt. 178 00:07:15,633 --> 00:07:19,133 And the bottom line for me was, I knew that I would have to 179 00:07:19,133 --> 00:07:22,300 because every Senate race is a national race now. 180 00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:25,766 And in Arizona, the president likes to come to Arizona. 181 00:07:25,766 --> 00:07:28,433 I knew that I would have to stand on a campaign stage 182 00:07:28,433 --> 00:07:31,533 with the president and be okay when people are shouting 183 00:07:31,533 --> 00:07:36,366 "Lock her up," or "Send them back," 184 00:07:36,366 --> 00:07:37,966 or be okay 185 00:07:37,966 --> 00:07:41,566 when the president was ridiculing my colleagues and friends 186 00:07:41,566 --> 00:07:45,333 or people in my state, and I couldn't do that. 187 00:07:45,333 --> 00:07:46,800 I just couldn't do that. 188 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,866 [SMITH] So you chose to leave rather than to fight. 189 00:07:49,866 --> 00:07:51,366 Because that's one way to interpret it. 190 00:07:51,366 --> 00:07:54,900 I'm not suggesting that you fled, but I am suggesting 191 00:07:54,900 --> 00:07:56,733 that an alternative path-- 192 00:07:56,733 --> 00:07:58,633 [FLAKE] Would have been to go down fighting. 193 00:07:58,633 --> 00:07:59,933 [SMITH] To allowing a bully to bully you 194 00:07:59,933 --> 00:08:01,733 is to punch the bully in the nose. 195 00:08:01,733 --> 00:08:03,166 Didn't your dad tell you that? 196 00:08:03,166 --> 00:08:05,966 My dad told me that, if a bully comes at you 197 00:08:05,966 --> 00:08:08,366 you punch the bully in the nose, and then the bully 198 00:08:08,366 --> 00:08:10,933 moves down the line and bullies somebody else. 199 00:08:10,933 --> 00:08:13,066 [FLAKE] Well for that, 200 00:08:13,066 --> 00:08:15,900 I don't mind standing up to the president 201 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:18,500 and challenging his positions, but it was never my style 202 00:08:18,500 --> 00:08:21,600 and never will be to engage in the type of behavior. 203 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:22,833 [SMITH] Tit for tat. 204 00:08:22,833 --> 00:08:25,533 [FLAKE] Yeah, and that concerns me greatly. 205 00:08:25,533 --> 00:08:29,166 Earlier this year when a Democrat 206 00:08:29,166 --> 00:08:31,733 who had won election 207 00:08:31,733 --> 00:08:35,900 it was the gentlewoman from Michigan, Tlaib. 208 00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:37,166 [SMITH] Rashida Tlaib, yeah. 209 00:08:37,166 --> 00:08:39,333 [FLAKE] She had a press conference or some event 210 00:08:39,333 --> 00:08:42,700 where she used very crude, vulgar language 211 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:44,633 to say we ought to impeach the president, 212 00:08:44,633 --> 00:08:46,133 get him out of office. 213 00:08:46,133 --> 00:08:48,300 And since I've been very critical of the president 214 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:51,066 for his crude, vulgar language often 215 00:08:51,066 --> 00:08:54,400 I thought I ought to say something, so I just Tweeted out 216 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,166 "This kind of language should have no place in politics. 217 00:08:57,166 --> 00:09:00,733 "The fact that the president uses it should be no excuse 218 00:09:00,733 --> 00:09:03,933 "for the rest of us. We should be better." 219 00:09:03,933 --> 00:09:04,766 [SMITH] How'd that go? 220 00:09:04,766 --> 00:09:07,733 [FLAKE] Within two days, 221 00:09:07,733 --> 00:09:12,300 there were 30,000 comments on that post. 222 00:09:12,300 --> 00:09:13,533 I was what they call ratioed. 223 00:09:13,533 --> 00:09:15,333 You have more comments than likes. 224 00:09:15,333 --> 00:09:17,200 [SMITH] The ratioing of Jeff Flake. 225 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,933 [FLAKE] But the overwhelming sentiment was 226 00:09:19,933 --> 00:09:23,433 "If the president speaks this way then so must we." 227 00:09:23,433 --> 00:09:27,933 And that, we're coming to a point where we shouldn't come to 228 00:09:27,933 --> 00:09:32,066 we shouldn't participate in that, and that's what 229 00:09:32,066 --> 00:09:35,800 I'm concerned of. My colleagues on the Republican side 230 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,333 I understand, you don't wanna go out and respond 231 00:09:38,333 --> 00:09:41,500 to every tweet, you can't. 232 00:09:41,500 --> 00:09:43,633 There aren't enough hours in the day 233 00:09:43,633 --> 00:09:46,200 and you get so tired of the media. 234 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:47,900 Every time you get off the trolley 235 00:09:47,900 --> 00:09:50,533 from the Russell Building to vote there's a mob 236 00:09:50,533 --> 00:09:51,466 wanting to talk about-- 237 00:09:51,466 --> 00:09:52,733 [SMITH] What about the latest. 238 00:09:52,733 --> 00:09:55,333 [FLAKE] Yeah, and you just can't do it all. 239 00:09:55,333 --> 00:09:58,733 But when the president goes so far sometimes 240 00:09:58,733 --> 00:10:02,233 you ought to speak out, you ought to say something. 241 00:10:02,233 --> 00:10:06,866 And for my colleagues, I would say today 242 00:10:06,866 --> 00:10:11,833 you can hold your criticism of the president 243 00:10:11,833 --> 00:10:15,166 and get through this perhaps, but don't stand on 244 00:10:15,166 --> 00:10:17,700 a campaign stage with the president when he's 245 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:21,033 ridiculing your colleagues, or when people are shouting 246 00:10:21,033 --> 00:10:22,533 "Lock her up." 247 00:10:22,533 --> 00:10:24,033 [SMITH] Of course, what's the alternative, though? 248 00:10:24,033 --> 00:10:25,700 If the president announces, "I'm coming to North Carolina 249 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:27,833 to campaign for Tom Tillis," your former colleague. 250 00:10:27,833 --> 00:10:31,200 "I'm gonna come to Maine and campaign for Susan Collins." 251 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,733 What are Tom Tillis or Susan Collins supposed to do 252 00:10:33,733 --> 00:10:35,033 say, "No, thanks." 253 00:10:35,033 --> 00:10:39,100 [FLAKE] Yeah, that's what it would take. 254 00:10:39,100 --> 00:10:42,366 I would think that if enough people do that 255 00:10:42,366 --> 00:10:44,433 and simply say, "We're not gonna do it," 256 00:10:44,433 --> 00:10:47,533 then he's gonna have to pull back. 257 00:10:47,533 --> 00:10:52,166 But this is just not us, as Republicans. 258 00:10:52,166 --> 00:10:54,133 As I said, this is unfamiliar territory 259 00:10:54,133 --> 00:10:57,600 not just on the policy side but the politics of it, as well. 260 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,800 And we can't continue to contribute to that because 261 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,000 I think as a party, young people look at this 262 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,366 millennials, and they've been I think 263 00:11:06,366 --> 00:11:08,566 walking away from the party for a while 264 00:11:08,566 --> 00:11:13,066 because of I think our unwillingness as Republicans 265 00:11:13,066 --> 00:11:15,366 for example to acknowledge climate change 266 00:11:15,366 --> 00:11:17,033 or some other things. 267 00:11:17,033 --> 00:11:20,200 I think now they're in a dead sprint away from the party 268 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,000 and when you look at demographics, 269 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,400 in terms of where we are nationally, 270 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,200 George W. Bush won the presidency 271 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,533 winning 56% of the white vote. 272 00:11:33,533 --> 00:11:37,833 Mitt Romney got 59% of the white vote and lost. 273 00:11:37,833 --> 00:11:41,200 Every couple of years, we are more diverse as a country 274 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,933 and I believe the autopsy we did in 2012 275 00:11:44,933 --> 00:11:46,233 after the Romney loss 276 00:11:46,233 --> 00:11:49,333 that we have to appeal to a broader electorate. 277 00:11:49,333 --> 00:11:53,466 But as a party, we pushed it aside and chased a populist. 278 00:11:53,466 --> 00:11:57,466 And you can win an election here or there 279 00:11:57,466 --> 00:12:01,366 with a populist message, you put together an odd coalition 280 00:12:01,366 --> 00:12:02,600 then go ahead. 281 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:03,400 [SMITH] But it's not a long-term strategy. 282 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:04,933 [FLAKE] It's not. 283 00:12:04,933 --> 00:12:06,333 [SMITH] Is it possible to be, just back to this point about 284 00:12:06,333 --> 00:12:07,766 millennials, I was fascinated to hear you say that. 285 00:12:07,766 --> 00:12:10,033 Is it possible to have a conservative message on policy 286 00:12:10,033 --> 00:12:10,900 and attract millennials? 287 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:12,166 [FLAKE] Yes, I think so. 288 00:12:12,166 --> 00:12:13,133 [SMITH] What is it, articulate the case. 289 00:12:13,133 --> 00:12:15,466 [FLAKE] One, on the fiscal side. 290 00:12:15,466 --> 00:12:19,033 I think millennials look at this $22 trillion debt 291 00:12:19,033 --> 00:12:20,933 although nobody's paying much attention to it. 292 00:12:20,933 --> 00:12:23,233 [SMITH] I seem to remember Republicans not liking the debt 293 00:12:23,233 --> 00:12:26,733 and now all of a sudden, this has been an extraordinary year 294 00:12:26,733 --> 00:12:27,933 as far as that goes. 295 00:12:27,933 --> 00:12:28,900 [FLAKE] But I think they look at that and say 296 00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:30,300 "We're going to inherit this? 297 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:32,300 "You're not doing anything in that regard." 298 00:12:32,300 --> 00:12:35,733 On the climate issue, I think there are 299 00:12:35,733 --> 00:12:40,066 conservative policies, the carbon dividend, a carbon tax. 300 00:12:40,066 --> 00:12:44,766 As Republicans, the gospel we preach as conservatives 301 00:12:44,766 --> 00:12:46,400 is, "If you don't like something 302 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,600 "you want less of something, tax it." 303 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,900 And you can do that in a way if it's revenue neutral 304 00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:54,666 and there are a number of good proposals out there. 305 00:12:54,666 --> 00:12:56,633 I introduced a bill when I was back in the House. 306 00:12:56,633 --> 00:13:01,133 Introduced a similar bill in the Senate for a carbon tax 307 00:13:01,133 --> 00:13:02,400 a revenue neutral carbon tax. 308 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:03,433 [SMITH] Well, supporting the environment 309 00:13:03,433 --> 00:13:04,666 actually has a legacy 310 00:13:04,666 --> 00:13:05,900 within the Republican Party, because after all 311 00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:08,100 Richard Nixon who created the EPA. 312 00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:10,866 I mean, the reality is, your party has been 313 00:13:10,866 --> 00:13:13,100 pro-environment in the past. 314 00:13:13,100 --> 00:13:14,600 [FLAKE] The conservative message has always been 315 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,566 limited government, economic freedom, free trade. 316 00:13:17,566 --> 00:13:20,233 We live in a globalized society, millennials know that 317 00:13:20,233 --> 00:13:23,033 better than anybody, and this notion that 318 00:13:23,033 --> 00:13:26,800 we're gonna take a position that we have not taken 319 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,833 in the past, this protectionist, nativist view. 320 00:13:30,833 --> 00:13:33,966 That doesn't go well with millennials. 321 00:13:33,966 --> 00:13:38,333 I think that there are messages we can come with 322 00:13:38,333 --> 00:13:42,366 but we've gotta start with one, realizing 323 00:13:42,366 --> 00:13:45,233 we need to have a more inclusive brand 324 00:13:45,233 --> 00:13:47,633 and we just don't have that right now. 325 00:13:47,633 --> 00:13:49,133 Let's just drill down on the base 326 00:13:49,133 --> 00:13:51,333 and see if it'll work for one more election cycle. 327 00:13:51,333 --> 00:13:54,133 And one, I don't think it will. 328 00:13:54,133 --> 00:13:56,433 But two, if it does, that's about it. 329 00:13:56,433 --> 00:13:59,066 You look at the demographics here and the change 330 00:13:59,066 --> 00:14:02,033 here in Texas, we're experiencing the same thing in Arizona. 331 00:14:02,033 --> 00:14:04,733 And it's tough to see how this party lasts 332 00:14:04,733 --> 00:14:07,433 and remains a political force in the future. 333 00:14:07,433 --> 00:14:09,666 [SMITH] You believe Arizona is a swing state? 334 00:14:09,666 --> 00:14:11,166 [FLAKE] Yeah, I think we're there. 335 00:14:11,166 --> 00:14:15,133 If you look at statewide, 336 00:14:15,133 --> 00:14:16,966 my seat went to a Democrat, 337 00:14:16,966 --> 00:14:19,533 Kyrsten Sinema, by a couple of percentage points. 338 00:14:19,533 --> 00:14:20,800 It wasn't that close. 339 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:21,933 [SMITH] Right. 340 00:14:21,933 --> 00:14:23,733 [FLAKE] We have another race coming up. 341 00:14:23,733 --> 00:14:25,166 [SMITH] Same person who lost last time 342 00:14:25,166 --> 00:14:26,433 is running again this time. 343 00:14:26,433 --> 00:14:27,933 [FLAKE] Exactly, and she has the position 344 00:14:27,933 --> 00:14:31,833 she's in the difficult position to try to avoid a primary 345 00:14:31,833 --> 00:14:34,600 not getting too far away from the president 346 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,300 but needing to in the general, create some distance 347 00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:40,966 from the president, because in Arizona 348 00:14:40,966 --> 00:14:44,533 I think this is a good thing, statewide 349 00:14:44,533 --> 00:14:47,633 the Republican Party just looks at the president 350 00:14:47,633 --> 00:14:49,800 and says, "Not so much." 351 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,400 And the base of the party, those who vote in primaries 352 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,333 that subset of a subset, are very much with the president. 353 00:14:56,333 --> 00:14:58,100 [SMITH] But maybe not to 50%, 354 00:14:58,100 --> 00:14:59,400 depending upon who the Democrats 355 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:00,600 put up as a candidate. 356 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:01,600 [FLAKE] Not even close, and I do think-- 357 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,766 [SMITH] You like Senator McSally. 358 00:15:03,766 --> 00:15:05,133 [FLAKE] I do, I do. 359 00:15:05,133 --> 00:15:07,266 [SMITH] You know her Democratic opponent, 360 00:15:07,266 --> 00:15:08,466 Mark Kelly, the astronaut? 361 00:15:08,466 --> 00:15:09,733 [FLAKE] I do. 362 00:15:09,733 --> 00:15:11,233 [SMITH] Gabrielle Gifford's husband. 363 00:15:11,233 --> 00:15:12,666 [FLAKE] Yeah, and he has the advantage, he doesn't have 364 00:15:12,666 --> 00:15:14,766 a Democratic primary right now, probably won't. 365 00:15:14,766 --> 00:15:18,433 He's stockpiling a lot of money, he's got a lot of 366 00:15:18,433 --> 00:15:20,733 support around the country, he has a name 367 00:15:20,733 --> 00:15:25,700 and he's played politics and policy right down the middle. 368 00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:27,633 He's been very smart about that. 369 00:15:27,633 --> 00:15:28,633 [SMITH] You're gonna be for him? 370 00:15:28,633 --> 00:15:29,566 [FLAKE] I'm sorry? 371 00:15:29,566 --> 00:15:30,766 [SMITH] Will you be for him? 372 00:15:30,766 --> 00:15:31,666 [FLAKE] I'm not saying that at all. 373 00:15:31,666 --> 00:15:33,166 (audience laughing) 374 00:15:33,166 --> 00:15:35,100 [SMITH] Are you for Senator McSally? 375 00:15:36,366 --> 00:15:38,066 [FLAKE] We'll see how the campaign come out. 376 00:15:38,066 --> 00:15:40,233 (audience laughing) 377 00:15:40,233 --> 00:15:41,433 We're a year out. 378 00:15:41,433 --> 00:15:44,266 [SMITH] I understand that but, Senator Flake, 379 00:15:44,266 --> 00:15:46,166 you understand that you just answered the question 380 00:15:46,166 --> 00:15:47,866 whether or not you answered the question. 381 00:15:47,866 --> 00:15:50,433 I mean, if you were for Senator McSally you would say so. 382 00:15:50,433 --> 00:15:55,166 [FLAKE] I don't think that every Republican ought to say 383 00:15:55,166 --> 00:15:57,166 I'm only gonna vote for Republicans. 384 00:15:57,166 --> 00:15:59,700 I famously, when Roy Moore 385 00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:03,133 was the candidate in Alabama 386 00:16:03,133 --> 00:16:06,733 I wrote a check to his Democratic opponent. 387 00:16:06,733 --> 00:16:11,233 (audience clapping) 388 00:16:11,233 --> 00:16:13,033 And I think that that's something 389 00:16:13,033 --> 00:16:16,966 when you talk about millennials, and most right-thinking 390 00:16:16,966 --> 00:16:20,300 Americans think, "You're gonna put party over country 391 00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:23,100 "every time, no matter what 392 00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:26,300 "and just vote right down the line? 393 00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:29,033 [SMITH] That has been the criticism of, I don't want to 394 00:16:29,033 --> 00:16:31,266 harp on this, as it relates to you so much 395 00:16:31,266 --> 00:16:32,533 but you understand, because you just brought up 396 00:16:32,533 --> 00:16:34,400 party over country. That was a, John McCain, 397 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,666 your late colleague in the Senate, fellow Arizonan 398 00:16:36,666 --> 00:16:40,233 was the exemplar of the idea of country over party. 399 00:16:40,233 --> 00:16:42,033 That was a phrase that he popularized 400 00:16:42,033 --> 00:16:44,200 during his presidential race, and again 401 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,133 during his time in the Senate. 402 00:16:46,133 --> 00:16:47,866 There are a number of Republicans in the Senate 403 00:16:47,866 --> 00:16:49,900 and in some ways you became fairly or unfairly 404 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:54,066 the poster child for this, that it's country over party 405 00:16:54,066 --> 00:16:56,833 until it comes time to vote, right? 406 00:16:56,833 --> 00:16:59,566 And the Kavanaugh confirmation, which was a year ago 407 00:16:59,566 --> 00:17:01,633 as we sit here, is one example of that. 408 00:17:01,633 --> 00:17:03,466 But you are often, you heard this, I'm not telling you 409 00:17:03,466 --> 00:17:06,033 something that you didn't hear, that "Jeff Flake always 410 00:17:06,033 --> 00:17:09,566 "furrows his brow, as other Republicans do and talk about 411 00:17:09,566 --> 00:17:13,033 "country over party until it comes time to put up." 412 00:17:13,033 --> 00:17:14,333 What do you say about that? 413 00:17:14,333 --> 00:17:15,933 [FLAKE] Well, I think Mitch McConnell 414 00:17:15,933 --> 00:17:17,666 would disagree with you on that. 415 00:17:17,666 --> 00:17:18,800 [SMITH] Yes, he probably would. 416 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,666 [FLAKE] In terms of my votes. 417 00:17:20,666 --> 00:17:22,066 [SMITH] Yeah, he probably would. 418 00:17:22,066 --> 00:17:24,733 [FLAKE] For the last two months of my time in the Senate 419 00:17:24,733 --> 00:17:27,900 I held up about 40 judges from going through 420 00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:29,866 until we could get a vote 421 00:17:29,866 --> 00:17:31,733 on protecting the Mueller investigation. 422 00:17:31,733 --> 00:17:32,633 [SMITH] Right. 423 00:17:32,633 --> 00:17:34,700 [FLAKE] So when I-- 424 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:38,066 (audience clapping) 425 00:17:38,066 --> 00:17:40,633 So I am first a conservative. 426 00:17:40,633 --> 00:17:43,633 I do want more conservative judges. 427 00:17:43,633 --> 00:17:47,733 And I've liked the fact that it has become 428 00:17:47,733 --> 00:17:50,266 more balanced now on the federal courts. 429 00:17:50,266 --> 00:17:51,800 [SMITH] But you're also for the rule of law. 430 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,033 [FLAKE] You bet, and during the Kavanaugh hearing 431 00:17:55,033 --> 00:17:58,266 my feeling was, and here's the problem with politics today 432 00:18:00,666 --> 00:18:03,800 what we've come to in this place, particularly with 433 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,500 social media as a backdrop, is a time when deliberation 434 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:13,033 is just about gone, because people in a position 435 00:18:13,033 --> 00:18:16,266 that I was in, particularly if you're running for reelection 436 00:18:16,266 --> 00:18:19,333 you make a calculation, when a big issue comes along 437 00:18:19,333 --> 00:18:23,466 whether it's debt and deficit or gun policy 438 00:18:23,466 --> 00:18:26,433 or climate change or Kavanaugh 439 00:18:26,433 --> 00:18:29,466 you make a calculation, I only wanna anger one side. 440 00:18:29,466 --> 00:18:32,900 And so you rush to your tribe, 441 00:18:32,900 --> 00:18:35,400 you declare where you are 442 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,600 and you stay there, and you never want to concede 443 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,500 that a hearing that you might be chairing 444 00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:47,300 might inform your vote, or that an investigation going on 445 00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:49,533 might influence where you are. 446 00:18:49,533 --> 00:18:51,500 [SMITH] An open mind is a liability these days. 447 00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:54,066 [FLAKE] Because as soon as you indicate that 448 00:18:54,066 --> 00:18:55,566 then all sides come in. 449 00:18:55,566 --> 00:18:56,800 [SMITH] Come at you, right. 450 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,033 [FLAKE] And so you make a calculation, 451 00:18:58,033 --> 00:18:59,566 I only wanna anger one side 452 00:18:59,566 --> 00:19:01,933 they won't really be angry because they never thought 453 00:19:01,933 --> 00:19:03,566 I was gettable anyway. 454 00:19:03,566 --> 00:19:06,733 And that's what you seek as a politician 455 00:19:06,733 --> 00:19:10,533 an elected official, political safety. 456 00:19:10,533 --> 00:19:14,666 And that's not where it is. To be the man in the middle 457 00:19:14,666 --> 00:19:16,433 is not a comfortable place to be. 458 00:19:16,433 --> 00:19:18,100 [SMITH] And is that ultimately what caused you 459 00:19:18,100 --> 00:19:20,333 to make the decision, because I mean 460 00:19:20,333 --> 00:19:22,133 I'm hearing what you're saying, it seems to me 461 00:19:22,133 --> 00:19:24,266 that it would be difficult if you're trying to be 462 00:19:24,266 --> 00:19:26,433 thoughtful about this, 463 00:19:26,433 --> 00:19:31,366 in a world that abhors gray. 464 00:19:31,366 --> 00:19:33,866 It's a black and white world these days politically. 465 00:19:33,866 --> 00:19:37,466 [FLAKE] It is, and you know, 466 00:19:37,466 --> 00:19:39,233 I mentioned to you before 467 00:19:39,233 --> 00:19:42,966 my wife counts our time out of office. 468 00:19:42,966 --> 00:19:45,800 First weeks, now months, 469 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,266 without death threats, as a plus. 470 00:19:48,266 --> 00:19:49,800 [SMITH] Would you say a word? 471 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,433 Since you brought that up, I want you to talk about that. 472 00:19:51,433 --> 00:19:54,933 You got death threats and continue to get, right? 473 00:19:54,933 --> 00:19:56,133 Talk about that. 474 00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:01,966 [FLAKE] Well, during the Kavanaugh hearing, obviously. 475 00:20:01,966 --> 00:20:04,400 There was a man from Chicago who called and said 476 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,200 "You're standing in the way of the president's agenda. 477 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,266 "I'm gonna take you and your family out." 478 00:20:10,266 --> 00:20:11,800 He was just sentenced a few weeks ago. 479 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:12,733 [SMITH] Said directly. 480 00:20:12,733 --> 00:20:15,566 [FLAKE] Left the message. 481 00:20:15,566 --> 00:20:16,866 [EVAN] Lordy, there was a tape. 482 00:20:18,466 --> 00:20:20,933 [FLAKE] There were many others. My wife got several 483 00:20:20,933 --> 00:20:25,733 text messages to her cell phone linked to beheading videos 484 00:20:25,733 --> 00:20:29,200 with the addresses of our children. 485 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,733 And then Cesar Sayoc, the one that mailed pipe bombs 486 00:20:33,733 --> 00:20:36,900 to a number of people, when they caught him 487 00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:40,200 they said, "You're all over his hard drives." 488 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,500 And we found out he had tweeted under another name 489 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:47,800 an aerial photo of my home in Arizona with the caption, 490 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,700 "Senator Flake, there are a lot of entrances 491 00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:52,666 "I'll see you soon." 492 00:20:52,666 --> 00:20:54,233 [SMITH] This is the world that we're living in. 493 00:20:54,233 --> 00:20:58,766 [FLAKE] It is, and many of those were from the right, 494 00:20:58,766 --> 00:21:01,333 from Trump supporters. 495 00:21:01,333 --> 00:21:04,500 There was somebody who came to 496 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:07,033 what he thought was my church, or my congregation 497 00:21:07,033 --> 00:21:10,100 it was actually another, he went to three in the same day 498 00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:13,233 with a rifle scope, just the scope, looking around 499 00:21:13,233 --> 00:21:16,033 and asking for where I was. He had just attended 500 00:21:16,033 --> 00:21:19,266 a Trump rally the day before, and was excited. 501 00:21:19,266 --> 00:21:21,666 But then there are some from the other side. 502 00:21:21,666 --> 00:21:25,500 I was on the baseball field that morning 503 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:28,066 where somebody who had a list of Republicans 504 00:21:28,066 --> 00:21:33,066 he wanted to take out. So it's not a place 505 00:21:34,533 --> 00:21:35,900 where we want to be right now, and we've gotta move 506 00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:38,700 the other direction, and it's incumbent upon 507 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:42,933 leaders to defuse the situation where they can. 508 00:21:42,933 --> 00:21:46,766 And some of it's gonna go on regardless but we're at a place 509 00:21:46,766 --> 00:21:49,166 where we really need to turn down the volume. 510 00:21:49,166 --> 00:21:50,433 [SMITH] How do you fix it, 511 00:21:50,433 --> 00:21:51,733 because we have a couple minutes left. 512 00:21:51,733 --> 00:21:53,233 What do you do? As a practical matter 513 00:21:53,233 --> 00:21:55,266 who's gonna want to go into public office 514 00:21:55,266 --> 00:21:56,566 under the current circumstances? 515 00:21:56,566 --> 00:21:58,033 [FLAKE] That's what worries me, as well. 516 00:21:58,033 --> 00:22:00,266 We're driving a lot of good people off 517 00:22:00,266 --> 00:22:02,266 who would otherwise do it. 518 00:22:02,266 --> 00:22:05,566 One, it's leadership from the top. 519 00:22:05,566 --> 00:22:07,666 It's difficult when you have a leader 520 00:22:07,666 --> 00:22:11,333 who takes advantage of those divisions 521 00:22:11,333 --> 00:22:13,800 that are already there, he didn't create a lot of them 522 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,200 but he's taken advantage of them. 523 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,433 So, first and foremost, you have to have somebody 524 00:22:18,433 --> 00:22:19,833 that's willing to do that. 525 00:22:19,833 --> 00:22:23,000 That's a necessary but probably not sufficient condition 526 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,500 but others as well, I think on the left certainly 527 00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:30,166 we've seen a move to the extreme there 528 00:22:30,166 --> 00:22:34,533 or the feeling that you have to match the rhetoric 529 00:22:34,533 --> 00:22:36,300 and that that worked for the president 530 00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:37,833 maybe we should do it as well. 531 00:22:37,833 --> 00:22:41,900 [SMITH] Yeah. You're done in office, 532 00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:43,466 in elective office? 533 00:22:43,466 --> 00:22:45,700 [FLAKE] You never say never, my wife's not listening I hope. 534 00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:47,200 (audience laughing) 535 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,333 [SMITH] We may be on in Arizona, so be careful 536 00:22:49,333 --> 00:22:51,166 what you say next could be important. 537 00:22:51,166 --> 00:22:53,800 [FLAKE] You know, like I said, 538 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,833 I left not because I was down on the institution. 539 00:22:56,833 --> 00:23:00,166 We have a great system of government here. 540 00:23:00,166 --> 00:23:03,966 When one party goes too far, the pendulum swings. 541 00:23:03,966 --> 00:23:06,333 And we've experienced that over my time in office 542 00:23:06,333 --> 00:23:09,266 a number of times. I've been in and out of the majority. 543 00:23:09,266 --> 00:23:11,200 It's more fun in the majority, I have to say. 544 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,266 But that pendulum swings. When you degrade the 545 00:23:15,266 --> 00:23:18,233 political culture I think, as we have been doing 546 00:23:18,233 --> 00:23:22,033 for the past few years, I'm not sure how elastic that is. 547 00:23:22,033 --> 00:23:25,266 I'm not sure if that pendulum will swing back 548 00:23:25,266 --> 00:23:30,233 as quickly, if at all, and that's what worries me. 549 00:23:30,233 --> 00:23:33,966 But I've not sworn off office, 550 00:23:33,966 --> 00:23:35,900 but I think I wanna wait 551 00:23:35,900 --> 00:23:37,166 til the fever cools a little. 552 00:23:37,166 --> 00:23:40,000 [SMITH] So will you publicly engage with 553 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,033 the next presidential campaign? 554 00:23:41,033 --> 00:23:42,500 [FLAKE] I'll see, I'll see. 555 00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:44,733 I would like to support a Republican candidate. 556 00:23:44,733 --> 00:23:46,500 I'm a conservative, I want to see a more 557 00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:49,100 conservative candidate than any of the Democrats 558 00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:51,433 that are running right now, but-- 559 00:23:51,433 --> 00:23:53,133 [SMITH] The percentage chance that you will endorse 560 00:23:53,133 --> 00:23:54,733 the president since he is almost certainly 561 00:23:54,733 --> 00:23:57,233 going to be the nominee, is what percentage chance? 562 00:23:57,233 --> 00:23:58,533 [FLAKE] None. [SMITH] Zero. 563 00:23:58,533 --> 00:24:00,133 [FLAKE] I couldn't support him last time 564 00:24:00,133 --> 00:24:01,066 and I certainly-- 565 00:24:01,066 --> 00:24:01,866 [SMITH] Can't support him now. 566 00:24:01,866 --> 00:24:04,100 (audience clapping) 567 00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:06,066 So is there any chance if the alternative 568 00:24:06,066 --> 00:24:08,233 presented to you is a Democrat. 569 00:24:08,233 --> 00:24:09,433 [FLAKE] Yes. 570 00:24:09,433 --> 00:24:10,100 [SMITH] President Trump and a Democrat. 571 00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:11,233 [FLAKE] Yes. 572 00:24:11,233 --> 00:24:12,766 [SMITH] Which Democrats do you like? 573 00:24:12,766 --> 00:24:14,266 [FLAKE] Well, obviously you want someone who can appeal 574 00:24:14,266 --> 00:24:17,866 to a broader electorate, and is more toward the center. 575 00:24:17,866 --> 00:24:19,900 And there are a number of them. 576 00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:23,000 (audience and Jeff laughing) 577 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:23,933 I think I'm about out of time. 578 00:24:23,933 --> 00:24:24,933 [SMITH] No, no, no, no, no. 579 00:24:24,933 --> 00:24:26,266 Oh no, we have time. 580 00:24:26,266 --> 00:24:28,533 (audience laughing) 581 00:24:28,533 --> 00:24:29,766 You got a name? 582 00:24:29,766 --> 00:24:32,733 [FLAKE] Certainly, and I'm not endorsing anyone 583 00:24:32,733 --> 00:24:33,833 and they wouldn't want my endorsement 584 00:24:33,833 --> 00:24:36,166 right now in a primary. 585 00:24:36,166 --> 00:24:39,000 People like Michael Bennet. I worked with Michael Bennet. 586 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,233 I was on the Gang of Eight on the immigration issue. 587 00:24:41,233 --> 00:24:43,433 He is a hard-working good man 588 00:24:43,433 --> 00:24:46,766 and he's more toward the center. 589 00:24:46,766 --> 00:24:50,066 Certainly Joe Biden can appeal to a broader electorate. 590 00:24:50,066 --> 00:24:54,533 We need somebody who will state, and he has, 591 00:24:54,533 --> 00:24:57,400 that Republicans need to work with Democrats 592 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:58,933 and Democrats with Republicans. 593 00:24:58,933 --> 00:25:02,533 It's nice to hear somebody say that during a primary. 594 00:25:02,533 --> 00:25:06,000 And he gets ridiculed for it, but he's still saying it. 595 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,766 [SMITH] As difficult as it is to say it 596 00:25:08,766 --> 00:25:11,433 'cause you know the consequences of saying it in a primary 597 00:25:11,433 --> 00:25:13,666 are significant. You think it's the right answer? 598 00:25:13,666 --> 00:25:16,166 [FLAKE] It is. And Cory Booker. 599 00:25:16,166 --> 00:25:17,600 He's reached across the aisle 600 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,700 a lot more than he wants to talk about right now 601 00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:20,966 in a primary. 602 00:25:20,966 --> 00:25:22,400 [SMITH] Not so good in a primary, yeah. 603 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,466 [FLAKE] So I do hope that that's where the Democratic Party 604 00:25:26,466 --> 00:25:29,600 gravitates, and there's this inclination 605 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,966 which is well-founded, and I hope they follow it 606 00:25:32,966 --> 00:25:35,500 is "We want somebody who can beat the president." 607 00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:38,066 Who can appeal to a lot of independents 608 00:25:38,066 --> 00:25:39,833 and some moderate Republicans. 609 00:25:39,833 --> 00:25:41,300 [SMITH] And that's the goal for you, as well. 610 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:42,400 [FLAKE] Yeah. 611 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:43,600 [SMITH] Change horses? [FLAKE] Yes. 612 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:44,833 [SMITH] Change horses, all right. 613 00:25:44,833 --> 00:25:45,766 Senator Flake, thank you so much for your time. 614 00:25:45,766 --> 00:25:46,700 Good to be with you. 615 00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:47,933 [FLAKE] Thanks for having me. 616 00:25:47,933 --> 00:25:48,633 [SMITH] Good luck with everything. 617 00:25:48,633 --> 00:25:49,433 Jeff Flake. 618 00:25:49,433 --> 00:25:51,600 (audience cheering) 619 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,833 [SMITH] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 620 00:25:53,833 --> 00:25:57,533 Visit our website at klru.org/overheard 621 00:25:57,533 --> 00:26:00,766 to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with 622 00:26:00,766 --> 00:26:04,500 our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. 623 00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:07,600 [FLAKE] Mitch McConnell, when I came to the Senate, 624 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,200 was always known as an institutionalist 625 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,633 who would protect the institution, at least 626 00:26:13,633 --> 00:26:15,466 and stand up for it. 627 00:26:15,466 --> 00:26:20,233 And I have to say, and I don't have anything against 628 00:26:20,233 --> 00:26:23,366 Mitch McConnell, but I have not seen that 629 00:26:23,366 --> 00:26:26,633 part of who he was for a while now. 630 00:26:26,633 --> 00:26:28,700 [ANNOUNCER] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 631 00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:31,966 is provided in part by Hillco Partners 632 00:26:31,966 --> 00:26:34,700 a Texas government affairs consultancy. 633 00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:37,400 Claire and Carl Stuart and by 634 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,566 Laura and John Beckworth, Hobby Family Foundation. 635 00:26:42,366 --> 00:26:45,033 (chimes)