WEBVTT 00:01.433 --> 00:02.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FEMALE ANNOUNCER] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 00:02.900 --> 00:04.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is provided in part by 00:04.666 --> 00:08.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, 00:08.766 --> 00:11.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation, 00:11.400 --> 00:13.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart, 00:13.433 --> 00:15.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and by Entergy. 00:16.466 --> 00:18.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith. 00:18.166 --> 00:20.333 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% She's a prolific, Grammy award-winning singer, songwriter, 00:20.333 --> 00:23.000 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% activist, and entrepreneur whose memoir 00:23.000 --> 00:26.733 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% "No Walls and the Recurring Dream" has just been published. 00:26.733 --> 00:29.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% She's Ani DiFranco. This is Overheard. 00:29.633 --> 00:31.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% (gentle instrumental music) 00:31.100 --> 00:33.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn 00:33.766 --> 00:35.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or is this about the experience 00:35.566 --> 00:37.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of not having been taught properly? 00:37.000 --> 00:39.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% How have have you avoided what has befallen 00:39.200 --> 00:40.966 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% other nations in Africa and Asia? 00:40.966 --> 00:42.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And you could say that he'd made his own bed, 00:42.466 --> 00:44.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but you caused him to sleep in it. 00:44.000 --> 00:46.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, you saw a problem and over time took it on. 00:46.900 --> 00:47.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (people laughing) 00:47.866 --> 00:48.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Let's start with the sizzle 00:48.833 --> 00:50.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% before we get to the steak. 00:50.466 --> 00:51.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Are you gonna run for president? 00:51.766 --> 00:54.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think I just got an F from you, actually. 00:54.100 --> 00:55.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is Overheard. 00:57.000 --> 01:01.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience applauding) 01:01.933 --> 01:03.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Ani DiFranco, welcome. 01:03.133 --> 01:04.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [ANI DIFRANCO] Thank you. 01:04.200 --> 01:05.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Congratulations on the book. 01:05.266 --> 01:06.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Thanks very much. 01:06.766 --> 01:08.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] As we sit here, it's newly a best seller. 01:08.766 --> 01:09.700 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 01:09.700 --> 01:10.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Isn't that amazing? 01:10.633 --> 01:11.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] That is amazing. 01:11.300 --> 01:12.833 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I'm amazed. 01:12.833 --> 01:14.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] On the best seller list with Michelle Obama. 01:14.133 --> 01:15.233 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 01:15.233 --> 01:16.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Anna Quindlen, Jill Biden. 01:16.633 --> 01:18.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 01:18.100 --> 01:19.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Right, well just, take a picture, right? 01:19.333 --> 01:20.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, that, yeah, yeah. 01:20.633 --> 01:21.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Capture that moment. 01:21.533 --> 01:22.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] I should. 01:22.733 --> 01:23.900 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [SMITH] Why did you decide to write a book? 01:23.900 --> 01:26.166 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% I thought, Ani DiFranco has a memoir, 01:26.166 --> 01:28.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% haven't we heard her story, 01:28.266 --> 01:29.200 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (laughing) 01:29.200 --> 01:31.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% over 19 records, 20 records. 01:31.100 --> 01:34.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Isn't every record sort of a memoir? 01:34.033 --> 01:36.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Isn't it sort of your story? 01:36.133 --> 01:38.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Well, not exactly. 01:38.700 --> 01:40.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, those are songs, you know. 01:40.566 --> 01:42.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I definitely draw from my experience, 01:42.600 --> 01:43.966 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% but, you know, 01:43.966 --> 01:44.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% it's storytelling. 01:44.933 --> 01:46.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] It's right for us 01:46.500 --> 01:47.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to see some of you in those songs. 01:47.800 --> 01:48.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yes, yes indeed, but it's not 01:48.866 --> 01:50.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as literal as that is. 01:50.266 --> 01:51.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Right, yeah. 01:51.400 --> 01:52.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] That's for sure. 01:52.633 --> 01:54.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] What was the catalyst for this book? 01:54.566 --> 01:56.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Why decide to do this now? 01:56.066 --> 01:59.066 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Honestly, I have a couple kids, 01:59.066 --> 02:02.366 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% and, this road doggin' 02:02.366 --> 02:05.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% doesn't mesh well with momming, 02:05.366 --> 02:06.300 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and, you know. 02:06.300 --> 02:07.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 02:07.466 --> 02:08.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] So I needed to change it up. 02:08.700 --> 02:10.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I needed to think of some way to work 02:10.766 --> 02:12.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and not always be gone. 02:12.933 --> 02:14.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Right, so it's a practical decision. 02:14.333 --> 02:15.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, yeah. 02:15.166 --> 02:16.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] On your part. 02:16.566 --> 02:18.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Kind of a decision that started with, 02:18.500 --> 02:20.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you know, being a mom. 02:20.233 --> 02:21.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 02:21.733 --> 02:24.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] And also, just needing a writing challenge 02:24.933 --> 02:27.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% after hundreds of songs, you know-- 02:27.533 --> 02:28.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Talk about that. 02:28.866 --> 02:32.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I assume that writing songs is hard, right, 02:32.300 --> 02:34.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a challenge in its own way. 02:34.166 --> 02:35.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Sure, yeah. 02:35.100 --> 02:36.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] But this was much more 02:36.033 --> 02:37.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of a challenge in the long form. 02:37.466 --> 02:40.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, for me, I never did this before, you know. 02:40.066 --> 02:44.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean have, I have a groove with songs 02:44.366 --> 02:48.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I know how it works, or how it works for me. 02:48.300 --> 02:50.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And this was scary. 02:50.833 --> 02:54.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This was, it fit the bill for a challenge. 02:54.133 --> 02:56.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There were many, and in terms of writing, 02:56.633 --> 02:59.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it's just such a different process. 02:59.866 --> 03:01.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean it couldn't be more different. 03:01.733 --> 03:03.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's funny to me they're both writing, you know, 03:03.833 --> 03:06.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% 'cause songs are like, 03:06.233 --> 03:07.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% an event, you know, 03:07.800 --> 03:10.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it's something just comes through, 03:10.166 --> 03:11.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you align yourself, 03:11.233 --> 03:13.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and something comes through. 03:13.266 --> 03:15.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And this was like whittling, you know. 03:15.700 --> 03:18.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was just like sitting there for years, 03:18.366 --> 03:21.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% just not really sure in any moment, 03:21.533 --> 03:23.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% if I'm on track or off track, 03:23.100 --> 03:25.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or can I do this, or, yeah. 03:25.033 --> 03:26.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] How much of this had you kept, 03:26.466 --> 03:28.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in one form or another, 03:28.400 --> 03:30.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% on paper, or somewhere, before, 03:30.866 --> 03:32.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or did you basically start with a blank slate 03:32.933 --> 03:34.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and say I'm gonna tell my story, 03:34.500 --> 03:37.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and have to go back and essentially rebuild and reconstruct? 03:37.433 --> 03:38.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Tabula rasa. 03:38.633 --> 03:39.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Seriously? 03:39.866 --> 03:41.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] I just, yeah, and of course, 03:41.366 --> 03:43.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the first hurdle is memory. 03:43.033 --> 03:43.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 03:43.866 --> 03:44.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] You know? 03:44.800 --> 03:46.033 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 03:46.033 --> 03:48.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's so funny when I started this project, 03:48.100 --> 03:49.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% everyone I knew was like, 03:49.333 --> 03:50.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% oh, I could never write a memoir, 03:50.833 --> 03:52.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I don't remember anything. 03:52.266 --> 03:54.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's like (stammering). 03:54.166 --> 03:55.000 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Same. 03:55.000 --> 03:56.233 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Same. 03:56.233 --> 03:57.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] We're all getting older, right? 03:57.233 --> 03:58.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, seriously. 03:58.200 --> 03:59.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Many years have passed. 03:59.733 --> 04:02.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, so that in itself was an endeavor. 04:02.500 --> 04:03.966 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 04:03.966 --> 04:05.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] You know, just trying to find things, 04:05.766 --> 04:08.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and then, oh, there's another thing under that thing, 04:08.266 --> 04:10.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and right, you know, and yeah, 04:10.933 --> 04:14.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% trying to put yourself back in a whole other life and time. 04:14.000 --> 04:16.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Did you go back, Ani, and talk to the people 04:16.766 --> 04:18.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who you ran with in those days 04:18.800 --> 04:20.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to try to get them to tell you stories, 04:20.733 --> 04:23.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or to fact-check you, or to help you, maybe, 04:23.933 --> 04:26.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% remember things yourself? 04:26.166 --> 04:27.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] I thought that I was gonna. 04:27.666 --> 04:28.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That was my plan. 04:28.866 --> 04:29.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] But you didn't do it? 04:29.833 --> 04:30.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Not really. 04:30.766 --> 04:31.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] 'Cause it's remarkable, 04:31.966 --> 04:33.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the stories that you tell are very detailed. 04:33.566 --> 04:35.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They seem to be very present in your mind. 04:35.633 --> 04:37.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% If it was hard for you to access them, 04:37.433 --> 04:38.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it doesn't show up in the pages. 04:38.766 --> 04:39.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Oh, sweet. 04:39.800 --> 04:41.200 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 04:41.200 --> 04:42.033 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 04:42.033 --> 04:42.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 04:42.866 --> 04:43.800 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I gotcha fooled. 04:43.800 --> 04:45.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Yeah, okay, good, well. 04:45.066 --> 04:46.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] No, I mean, I do have a, you know, 04:46.533 --> 04:49.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, my memory works like I know a lot of people's 04:49.300 --> 04:52.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% where it's, you don't remember 04:52.200 --> 04:53.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the facts and the figures, 04:53.733 --> 04:57.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but you remember moments, scenes, you know, feelings, 04:57.600 --> 05:00.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and even dialogue. I have a memory for words 05:00.800 --> 05:05.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because of my life and songwriting, memorizing singing. 05:05.233 --> 05:10.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, I have sort of a photographic sonographic memory. 05:10.233 --> 05:11.166 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 05:11.166 --> 05:12.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 05:12.100 --> 05:13.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Yeah, well, very helpful 05:13.100 --> 05:14.333 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% in a moment like this, certainly. 05:14.333 --> 05:16.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So the no walls in the title refers to, 05:16.866 --> 05:19.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the home you grew up in, at least partly, 05:19.966 --> 05:22.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which literally had no walls, 05:22.400 --> 05:23.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% except for the walls on the outside. 05:23.400 --> 05:26.366 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, yeah, well, yep, 05:26.366 --> 05:29.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this project is way more literal, 05:29.266 --> 05:31.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so I thought I'd start super literal, yeah, 05:31.600 --> 05:34.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there were, my parents, my mother was an architect, 05:34.466 --> 05:35.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and my father an engineer, 05:35.766 --> 05:40.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they designed the house I grew up in, 05:40.133 --> 05:42.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which was a carriage house, 05:42.033 --> 05:46.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and they, yeah, they, they, there were no walls. 05:46.300 --> 05:48.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There was one room on the first floor, 05:48.166 --> 05:49.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and one room on the second floor. 05:49.600 --> 05:52.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, there was a bathroom with walls around it, 05:52.366 --> 05:53.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% but that was it. 05:53.400 --> 05:54.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] And that was it. 05:54.633 --> 05:55.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Otherwise, we were right there 05:55.633 --> 05:56.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in each other's faces. 05:56.966 --> 05:58.166 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Very intimate. 05:58.166 --> 05:59.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Your parents were 05:59.366 --> 06:00.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% extraordinarily accomplished people. 06:00.500 --> 06:01.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% They met at MIT. Right? 06:01.500 --> 06:02.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 06:02.733 --> 06:05.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] This is in north Buffalo, New York, 06:05.166 --> 06:06.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% so western New York. 06:06.233 --> 06:07.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 06:07.733 --> 06:08.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] And I actually, you know, 06:08.900 --> 06:10.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we had the conversation 06:10.133 --> 06:12.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% before we came out here about Buffalo. 06:12.233 --> 06:15.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Buffalo's such a great place. 06:15.266 --> 06:16.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's such an interesting place. 06:16.733 --> 06:18.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's such a, it's very alive in your mind, right? 06:18.866 --> 06:19.933 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 06:19.933 --> 06:21.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] It comes across, really, 06:21.233 --> 06:22.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in an interesting way in this book. 06:22.466 --> 06:23.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] It's nice to hear you say that. 06:23.400 --> 06:24.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Yeah, it's a city with history. 06:24.966 --> 06:26.233 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 06:26.233 --> 06:27.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] You know, so, I always find the places 06:27.933 --> 06:30.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with longer histories to be interesting. 06:30.066 --> 06:31.300 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 06:31.300 --> 06:32.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] You know, you can just feel it. 06:32.400 --> 06:35.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And a lot of characters, a lot of, 06:35.566 --> 06:37.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% yeah, it's a working class city. 06:37.433 --> 06:40.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There's a lot of immigrant populations, 06:40.766 --> 06:42.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and, yeah, it's an interesting place. 06:42.200 --> 06:43.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Would your story be different 06:43.133 --> 06:44.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% if it were set somewhere else, 06:44.366 --> 06:45.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if you had grown up someplace else? 06:45.166 --> 06:46.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] I'm sure. 06:46.000 --> 06:46.933 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 06:46.933 --> 06:48.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] I mean, I always, 06:48.133 --> 06:49.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the first thing I always ask somebody I meet 06:49.233 --> 06:50.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is where are you from? 06:50.466 --> 06:52.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 'Cause there's something very deep about that. 06:52.266 --> 06:53.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Well, we're all from someplace, 06:53.800 --> 06:56.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and our lives are shaped by where we came from. 06:56.433 --> 06:57.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Indeed. 06:57.366 --> 06:58.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] And by who raised us. 06:58.500 --> 06:59.700 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 06:59.700 --> 07:01.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] And again, back to your parents, 07:01.000 --> 07:02.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% your parents are very important characters 07:02.766 --> 07:03.700 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in this story. 07:03.700 --> 07:05.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, they, I mean, 07:05.800 --> 07:07.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they're very important characters in my life. 07:07.766 --> 07:10.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Even though my family, kind of, 07:10.933 --> 07:14.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% dissipated, early on in my life, 07:14.333 --> 07:18.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% my mother's, and father's, effect was pretty profound. 07:18.533 --> 07:21.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, I think I got my shtick from my mother, completely. 07:21.300 --> 07:22.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Yeah, yeah. 07:22.133 --> 07:23.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] You know? 07:23.633 --> 07:24.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Talk about her, what do you remember about her? 07:24.833 --> 07:25.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] I mean she's not musical, per se, 07:25.833 --> 07:28.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but super creative and engaging, 07:28.166 --> 07:30.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and, you know, she's the crazy hat lady 07:30.433 --> 07:33.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% at the party, you know, and uh-- 07:33.800 --> 07:35.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Very independent, kinda goes her own way. 07:35.966 --> 07:36.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Independent. 07:36.900 --> 07:38.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Which is obviously, 07:38.133 --> 07:39.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we'll talk about this in a second, 07:39.666 --> 07:41.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but independence is really the narrative through line 07:41.000 --> 07:42.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of this book and of your story, isn't it? 07:42.633 --> 07:44.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] True, yeah. 07:44.266 --> 07:46.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Right, taking control of yourself and your life. 07:46.300 --> 07:48.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Your love of music also 07:48.233 --> 07:50.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% happened as a kid growing up in Buffalo. 07:50.166 --> 07:51.133 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 07:51.133 --> 07:52.566 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right? 07:52.566 --> 07:53.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, I needed an outlet, you know, 07:53.833 --> 07:58.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% troubled family, stress to the system, 07:58.633 --> 08:03.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% so, like any kid, any human, I needed an outlet. 08:03.033 --> 08:03.966 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 08:03.966 --> 08:04.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] So in the beginning, 08:04.900 --> 08:07.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I was dancing, I was painting, 08:07.133 --> 08:11.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I was anything I could, you know, express myself with. 08:11.000 --> 08:13.166 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% But music, won. 08:13.166 --> 08:14.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] What kind of music, 08:14.400 --> 08:16.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% before you were playing yourself, 08:16.000 --> 08:18.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% interested you, when you listened to music? 08:19.033 --> 08:20.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Well-- 08:20.533 --> 08:21.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] 'Cause I know you've had many influences over time, 08:21.466 --> 08:23.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger. 08:23.366 --> 08:24.300 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 08:24.300 --> 08:25.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Joan Armatrading. 08:25.033 --> 08:26.233 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 08:26.233 --> 08:27.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] There were a lot of people whose work 08:27.433 --> 08:28.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is obviously evident in your own work later, 08:28.233 --> 08:29.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% who influenced you, 08:29.700 --> 08:31.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but what did you like when you were growing up-- 08:31.200 --> 08:34.033 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, early on, the only recorded music 08:34.033 --> 08:36.233 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% that I heard was my father's records, 08:36.233 --> 08:38.966 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% and he was an Italian immigrant, 08:38.966 --> 08:42.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% and he loved all things American. 08:42.200 --> 08:45.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So his records were, I mean, 08:45.100 --> 08:47.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Aaron Copland, John Fahey. 08:47.400 --> 08:48.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] I mean, classically American stuff. 08:48.966 --> 08:49.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yes, yeah. 08:49.966 --> 08:51.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right? 08:51.100 --> 08:52.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yes, celebratorily American. 08:52.833 --> 08:55.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, Americana, before it was cool. 08:55.533 --> 09:00.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Yeah, John Fahey, you know, the guitarist, 09:00.500 --> 09:05.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that kind of, uh, you know, alcoholic, uh, character, 09:05.400 --> 09:09.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who made these instrumental acoustic guitar records. 09:09.400 --> 09:12.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think his playing had a deep, subliminal, 09:12.833 --> 09:14.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% effect very early on for me. 09:14.966 --> 09:16.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There were Blue Note Records, 09:16.300 --> 09:19.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there were Smithsonian Recordings, you know. 09:19.600 --> 09:21.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] So you took lessons, again I'm thinking 09:21.300 --> 09:24.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's like from the book, it's like nine, 10, right? 09:24.533 --> 09:25.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, yeah. 09:25.733 --> 09:27.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] But then not long after that, 09:27.233 --> 09:30.066 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% you, and I believe it was the person who was your teacher, 09:30.066 --> 09:33.833 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% you go out and start to perform with that person. 09:33.833 --> 09:34.766 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 09:34.766 --> 09:36.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] What was that like? 09:36.200 --> 09:37.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So you're performing, probably out on the street, 09:37.000 --> 09:38.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% at 13, 12, 13, 14? 09:38.633 --> 09:40.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yep. 09:40.100 --> 09:42.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% On the street even, you know, coffee houses, even, bars. 09:42.733 --> 09:45.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He just took me under his wing. 09:45.266 --> 09:46.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% His name was Michael Meldrum, 09:46.633 --> 09:50.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he was a troubadour about Buffalo, and, um-- 09:50.833 --> 09:52.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] He ends up being a pretty significant character 09:52.566 --> 09:53.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in your story, right? 09:53.566 --> 09:54.800 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 09:54.800 --> 09:55.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] I mean, but for that time, 09:55.966 --> 09:57.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this might have turned out differently. 09:57.433 --> 10:00.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, he really, sort of, gifted me with my path, 10:00.933 --> 10:04.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, he introduced me to the job of folk singer. 10:04.966 --> 10:08.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Yeah, so I'm thinking about the time of all this. 10:08.133 --> 10:09.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So you're 48 now? 10:09.800 --> 10:11.033 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 10:11.033 --> 10:12.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] So go back to when you were 14, 10:12.900 --> 10:14.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so we're talking about the mid-1980s, 10:14.733 --> 10:18.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the concept of the singer songwriter, and of folk music, 10:18.633 --> 10:20.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it had kind of come and gone, 10:20.333 --> 10:23.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and had not really come back, in that respect-- 10:23.200 --> 10:24.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, it was way out of fashion. 10:24.766 --> 10:26.000 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (laughing) 10:26.000 --> 10:27.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Right, it was way out of fashion. 10:27.466 --> 10:28.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, it's interesting to me that that's what interested you, 10:28.800 --> 10:30.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you gravitated toward, 10:30.000 --> 10:31.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you were able to make a life doing that, 10:31.566 --> 10:34.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because it was not a certainty that 10:34.133 --> 10:36.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that would be something that would work out, right? 10:36.166 --> 10:39.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] No, and it's funny, just to even, for you to ask, 10:39.433 --> 10:42.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% like what music did I, you know, listen to, 10:42.766 --> 10:46.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as in, you know, recordings, like consume. 10:46.500 --> 10:48.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And so, yeah for me, 10:48.833 --> 10:50.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there was my father's records really early on, 10:50.966 --> 10:54.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but as soon as Michael came into my life at the age of nine, 10:54.400 --> 10:58.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% music was, not something you buy, it's something you do. 10:58.100 --> 10:59.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] You make. 10:59.400 --> 11:00.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Something you make, together. 11:00.333 --> 11:01.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 11:01.866 --> 11:04.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, and I'm so grateful for that experience 11:04.033 --> 11:05.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% coming really early on. 11:05.266 --> 11:08.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Music is a thing you do when you get together. 11:08.200 --> 11:09.033 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 11:09.033 --> 11:10.566 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 11:10.566 --> 11:14.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] I wanna jump ahead to, your first record is in 1990? 11:14.933 --> 11:16.433 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 11:16.433 --> 11:17.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] So you're 18 years old when this record comes out? 11:17.866 --> 11:19.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 11:19.400 --> 11:20.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] And not long after that, 11:20.900 --> 11:23.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you make the decision that the music business needs 11:23.433 --> 11:25.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to be overthrown, or disrupted. 11:25.533 --> 11:26.366 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (laughing) 11:26.366 --> 11:27.533 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 11:27.533 --> 11:28.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] And you start Righteous Babe, 11:28.333 --> 11:29.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% which is your own label, 11:29.700 --> 11:32.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which persists to this day as a home 11:32.000 --> 11:34.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for a lot of musicians like you. 11:34.033 --> 11:35.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Still kickin'. 11:35.533 --> 11:38.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Still kickin' and, again, like folk music, 11:38.300 --> 11:39.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or like being a singer-songwriter, 11:39.766 --> 11:42.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you were a little bit out ahead of the fashion. 11:42.700 --> 11:44.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The disruption of the music business 11:44.300 --> 11:46.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% had not really begun at that point. 11:46.400 --> 11:47.633 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 11:47.633 --> 11:48.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] You were out ahead of everybody else 11:48.833 --> 11:49.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in rebelling against the old order. 11:49.633 --> 11:51.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 11:51.100 --> 11:52.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Can you talk a little bit about your mindset, 11:52.366 --> 11:54.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what drove you to take control, and to do that 11:54.566 --> 11:56.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because it was not, again, 11:56.066 --> 11:57.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% no guarantee of succeeding at that. 11:57.633 --> 12:00.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, yeah, I talk about it a little in the book. 12:00.233 --> 12:01.633 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 12:01.633 --> 12:05.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] I think that my goal, 12:05.300 --> 12:08.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% was to connect, you know, with people, 12:08.600 --> 12:12.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and songs were a way 12:12.333 --> 12:17.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of opening myself and making myself completely vulnerable. 12:17.300 --> 12:19.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then when somebody would join me there, 12:19.400 --> 12:21.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, and share that moment with me, 12:21.933 --> 12:24.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that was so fulfilling to me. 12:24.933 --> 12:26.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That's what I was searching for. 12:26.466 --> 12:29.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, that I just, I think, you know, it's not that I, 12:29.933 --> 12:31.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the thought about all this, 12:31.933 --> 12:34.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I just felt fulfilled. 12:34.566 --> 12:35.700 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 12:35.700 --> 12:37.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Even playing for five people, 12:37.366 --> 12:41.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% if, you know, if they would really go there with me, 12:41.500 --> 12:42.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that was all I needed. 12:42.833 --> 12:45.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So when people started to come, 12:45.433 --> 12:49.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, labels, you know, come with interest. 12:49.633 --> 12:51.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Any success, they're right on top of you, right? 12:51.600 --> 12:52.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yep. 12:52.900 --> 12:54.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] They wanna have a piece of that, right. 12:54.133 --> 12:55.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yep, they, you know, sort of, 12:55.866 --> 12:57.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% word started getting out, 12:57.300 --> 13:00.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% people started getting interested in maybe signing me 13:00.900 --> 13:02.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% when I was really young, 13:02.733 --> 13:05.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and, I don't know, for some reason, 13:05.433 --> 13:06.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as a young person, 13:06.666 --> 13:08.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% well, first of all, I was very idealistic, 13:08.766 --> 13:12.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and not impressed with the sort of capitalist credo, 13:12.566 --> 13:16.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you know, and not sure that, 13:16.466 --> 13:19.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that partnering with profit-motivated people 13:19.700 --> 13:21.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% was right for my mission. 13:21.933 --> 13:22.766 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 13:22.766 --> 13:24.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] You know. 13:24.300 --> 13:27.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And also, once again, what I was trying to do, 13:27.333 --> 13:29.200 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I was doing. 13:29.200 --> 13:32.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I didn't, I just didn't have that longing 13:32.800 --> 13:36.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that maybe a lot of other young people do, 13:36.866 --> 13:38.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for the fame and the fortune. 13:38.633 --> 13:42.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I just wanted somebody to be my friend, right now. 13:42.500 --> 13:43.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] But I appreciate the fact 13:43.666 --> 13:44.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that you were able to resist, 13:44.600 --> 13:45.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% at a relatively young age, 13:45.533 --> 13:47.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the temptation to give up 13:47.333 --> 13:49.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that independence and that control, 13:49.500 --> 13:53.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to chase dollars or to chase being a celebrity. 13:53.366 --> 13:56.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The music and the mission, as you just defined it, 13:56.333 --> 13:58.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of your art was more important to you 13:58.033 --> 13:59.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% than any conventional success. 13:59.466 --> 14:01.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so you just held that at bay. 14:01.300 --> 14:02.533 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 14:02.533 --> 14:04.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] But you didn't just hold it at bay, 14:04.033 --> 14:06.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you said I'm gonna create my own means to do this. 14:06.100 --> 14:08.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Now, we skipped over the part of your personal story 14:08.833 --> 14:11.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% where you are emancipated at a young age. 14:11.566 --> 14:13.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Your family leaves Buffalo, 14:13.000 --> 14:14.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% moves to Connecticut, right? 14:14.666 --> 14:16.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 14:16.100 --> 14:17.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] You move back to Buffalo, and around this time 14:17.733 --> 14:20.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you declare yourself an emancipated minor. 14:20.133 --> 14:21.066 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 14:21.066 --> 14:22.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] You have always said 14:22.466 --> 14:24.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm gonna do this myself, haven't you? 14:24.333 --> 14:25.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That's the thing. 14:25.300 --> 14:26.533 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 14:26.533 --> 14:27.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Again, that's the narrative thread 14:27.966 --> 14:29.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% through this whole 14:29.200 --> 14:30.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% story is I'm gonna take responsibility. 14:30.833 --> 14:32.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I'm not gonna let anybody tell me how I have to do things. 14:32.933 --> 14:34.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm gonna do this myself. 14:34.266 --> 14:35.200 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 14:35.200 --> 14:36.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] It's very consistent. 14:36.733 --> 14:39.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, and also just practical, you know, 14:39.633 --> 14:41.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% my family was kind of a mess, 14:41.733 --> 14:43.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and then I'm living with my mom, 14:43.000 --> 14:45.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then my mom takes a job in Connecticut, 14:45.733 --> 14:47.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and living in rural Connecticut, you know, 14:47.733 --> 14:49.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but by this time I'm 15. 14:49.233 --> 14:52.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I got gigs, I got friends, I got things to do. 14:52.333 --> 14:54.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] You're going back, that's it. Yeah. 14:54.300 --> 14:55.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (people laughing) 14:55.533 --> 14:57.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] So yeah, I just went out on my, 14:57.266 --> 14:58.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% 'cause that, you know, 14:58.733 --> 15:00.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that was my life that I had already begun to build. 15:00.966 --> 15:03.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] So from emancipated minor to emancipated musician, 15:03.833 --> 15:04.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% effectively, right? 15:04.933 --> 15:06.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm gonna do this myself. 15:06.766 --> 15:08.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, yeah. 15:08.266 --> 15:10.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] So what was wrong, or what is wrong still, 15:10.733 --> 15:12.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because here we are all these years later. 15:12.333 --> 15:14.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I mean, Righteous Babe has been, 15:14.366 --> 15:15.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it's almost 30, going on 30 years, right? 15:15.966 --> 15:17.333 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 15:17.333 --> 15:19.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] What's wrong with the music business? 15:19.200 --> 15:20.500 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% At a high level, 15:20.500 --> 15:22.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what is wrong with the conventional way 15:22.933 --> 15:24.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that people make records, market records, 15:24.933 --> 15:27.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% sell records, distribute records, tour and travel, 15:27.333 --> 15:28.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% what's wrong with it? 15:28.233 --> 15:29.633 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Ah-- 15:29.633 --> 15:31.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] No one is more of an advocate 15:31.200 --> 15:32.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for upturning the old order than you, 15:32.933 --> 15:34.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% so tell me what the case is. 15:34.166 --> 15:34.966 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [DIFRANCO] I mean, I think what's wrong 15:34.966 --> 15:36.533 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% with the music business 15:36.533 --> 15:38.866 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% is kinda what's wrong with any big business. 15:38.866 --> 15:42.433 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% In that the bottom line is on top-- 15:42.433 --> 15:43.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Right, drives every decision, right. 15:43.366 --> 15:44.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Of the priority list. 15:44.633 --> 15:46.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And bigger is better. 15:46.600 --> 15:48.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And exponential growth, 15:48.966 --> 15:53.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which I think of as cancer, 15:53.000 --> 15:54.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is thought of as the goal. 15:54.633 --> 15:56.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Right, growing for the sake of growing. 15:56.633 --> 15:59.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Growing for the sake of growing, you know. 15:59.033 --> 16:02.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Sustainability is, I think, what should be 16:02.200 --> 16:05.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the forefront of the priority list, 16:05.566 --> 16:08.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and that can be also, in terms of an artist, 16:08.366 --> 16:10.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% sustainability for their soul, 16:10.433 --> 16:13.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and their self, and their life, you know, 16:13.233 --> 16:16.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% just the way that the industry typically operates, 16:16.000 --> 16:20.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think is not conducive to art and artists, and yeah. 16:20.666 --> 16:21.700 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [SMITH] One of the things, though, 16:21.700 --> 16:23.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that I think about as I go back 16:23.233 --> 16:25.033 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% to the days, early days, of Righteous Babe, is that the 16:25.033 --> 16:27.333 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% means of production were not really in your hands. 16:27.333 --> 16:29.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Technology was not as easily available. 16:29.966 --> 16:31.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It was not as affordable. 16:31.533 --> 16:34.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Now, anybody, can be their own label, 16:34.533 --> 16:37.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% their own distributor, right, that's one of the great things 16:37.533 --> 16:40.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% about the world now is that it is truly a DIY world. 16:40.433 --> 16:43.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It was not when you did it, even though you did DIY, right. 16:43.166 --> 16:44.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Right. 16:44.100 --> 16:45.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] But it's DIY now. 16:45.033 --> 16:46.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, I mean, I think 16:46.166 --> 16:47.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% one of the interesting aspects of my 16:47.900 --> 16:52.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% story is that, you know, and my independent deconstruction 16:52.866 --> 16:55.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and reconstruction of the music industry, 16:55.333 --> 16:56.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% was that it was pre-internet. 16:56.933 --> 16:58.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 16:58.400 --> 17:01.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] So I just like that factoid, because it proves 17:01.100 --> 17:04.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that even this incredibly powerful tool that has opened a 17:04.433 --> 17:07.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% lot of, you know, new possibilities for people, 17:07.466 --> 17:08.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is not necessary. 17:08.733 --> 17:10.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Right. So let me ask you about that. 17:10.766 --> 17:12.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, had the opportunity to talk to a lot of people on this 17:12.933 --> 17:16.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% show about streaming services, the Spotifys of the world, 17:16.933 --> 17:20.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and whether that's a positive or a negative in terms of 17:20.266 --> 17:24.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% creating an audience, a market some would say, but really 17:24.233 --> 17:25.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we're talking about an audience. 17:25.633 --> 17:28.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The fact that those services provide a means for 17:28.833 --> 17:32.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% discovery. I might not be thinking about buying your music, 17:32.966 --> 17:35.766 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% but then I might actually encounter your music through some 17:35.766 --> 17:37.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% weird means on one of those services and go, oh wait a 17:37.966 --> 17:40.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% minute, now I'm totally into Ani DiFranco again I'm gonna go 17:40.166 --> 17:41.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% buy all these records. 17:41.633 --> 17:43.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Do you believe that there is some good in that, 17:43.866 --> 17:45.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in that access, in that discovery, 17:45.900 --> 17:49.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and that ultimately it creates more of an audience 17:49.066 --> 17:50.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and more of a market, rather than less? 17:50.600 --> 17:53.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Or do you think that they're stealing your product from you? 17:53.233 --> 17:55.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Well, you know I think it's probably 17:55.433 --> 17:56.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% like the rest of the world, 17:56.766 --> 17:58.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it's both positive and negative, 17:58.333 --> 17:59.566 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% you know, everything. 17:59.566 --> 18:02.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There are upsides, there are downsides. 18:02.266 --> 18:05.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So I don't dwell too much on is it good or bad, 18:05.400 --> 18:07.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it just is, you know, this-- 18:07.966 --> 18:09.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] But you have to give them, 18:09.900 --> 18:11.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you have to say grace over their-- 18:11.833 --> 18:13.066 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 18:13.066 --> 18:14.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Carrying you out to the world. 18:14.500 --> 18:17.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, and I think for me, it's possible 18:17.666 --> 18:19.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because it's just more of the same. 18:19.700 --> 18:23.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's more of focus on your purpose, 18:23.966 --> 18:27.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and your job, that you have to do, 18:27.033 --> 18:29.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that only you know, whatever that is, 18:29.566 --> 18:32.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the universe, and if you are on the right path, 18:32.233 --> 18:33.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the universe will hold you. 18:33.866 --> 18:38.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And actually, for me, my bread and butter has always been 18:38.600 --> 18:40.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% live performance. 18:40.166 --> 18:41.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 18:41.400 --> 18:42.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] I don't think I ever really 18:42.633 --> 18:44.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% sold as many records as people might think. 18:44.700 --> 18:47.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, I'm indie girl U.S.A. and whoa what a success, 18:47.633 --> 18:52.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but the literal sales figures in terms of my album is not 18:52.600 --> 18:55.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% nearly what major label artists. 18:55.633 --> 18:58.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Well, you know, some musicians are basically, 18:58.900 --> 19:01.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they exist to make records and to tour 19:01.833 --> 19:03.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in support of those records, 19:03.133 --> 19:05.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and some are touring musicians, performers, 19:05.600 --> 19:07.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who make records essentially in the negative space. 19:07.766 --> 19:09.000 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% You're more-- 19:09.000 --> 19:10.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] As sort of droppings along the way. 19:10.466 --> 19:11.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Well you're more the latter, right, probably. 19:11.133 --> 19:12.366 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yes. 19:12.366 --> 19:13.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] You've always been a touring musician, 19:13.733 --> 19:15.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you've always been a performer first and foremost. 19:15.200 --> 19:17.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That's where your fan base gets to encounter you 19:17.633 --> 19:19.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and engage with you and that's how you like it, actually. 19:19.800 --> 19:21.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, yeah. 19:21.066 --> 19:22.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] One of the things I think also, 19:22.700 --> 19:23.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% again back to this idea of 19:23.966 --> 19:25.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you being out ahead of everybody else is 19:25.900 --> 19:29.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you were a political artist, 19:29.266 --> 19:32.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or an artist who spoke her mind, spoke out 19:32.400 --> 19:36.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% about the injustice, or the inequities of the world, 19:36.300 --> 19:38.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% way before that was in fashion. 19:38.033 --> 19:38.966 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. 19:38.966 --> 19:40.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Now everybody's woke. 19:40.733 --> 19:42.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But you were there first. 19:42.166 --> 19:43.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] I hope so. 19:43.400 --> 19:44.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Yeah, but you were there, 19:44.800 --> 19:46.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you were there much earlier than everybody else. 19:46.466 --> 19:48.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That seems to be a part of your personality. 19:48.233 --> 19:50.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, yeah, and a part of my history, 19:50.966 --> 19:53.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% my parents both very progressive. 19:53.133 --> 19:55.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% My mother, just straight up 19:55.033 --> 19:58.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% activist, herself. And-- 19:58.966 --> 20:00.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Aren't you a straight up activist, though, 20:00.466 --> 20:03.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% haven't you been a straight up activist your entire career? 20:03.100 --> 20:04.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yes, I would like to think so, yeah. 20:04.566 --> 20:09.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But so, me and my idealism, 20:09.566 --> 20:14.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and my political lens that I see through, 20:14.566 --> 20:18.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I end up in the folk circuit at folk festivals. 20:18.966 --> 20:21.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And though it was very out of fashion, 20:21.133 --> 20:26.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and kind of a dying scene, you know, in the '80s. 20:26.100 --> 20:29.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% For me it, you know, 20:29.133 --> 20:34.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the coolest part about that scene was 20:34.133 --> 20:39.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the social consciousness, the political awareness, 20:39.133 --> 20:43.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the giving-essness. 20:43.800 --> 20:47.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That was always what really appealed to me about the whole 20:47.633 --> 20:49.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% genre and community, 20:49.800 --> 20:52.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the underground world of the folk singer. 20:52.366 --> 20:54.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I thought the politics were the coolest part and it's funny 20:54.766 --> 20:59.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because, yeah, in the '80s and '90s, people were moving away 20:59.500 --> 21:02.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% from the idea of the folk singer, which has a political 21:02.533 --> 21:05.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% connotation into singer-songwriter. 21:05.533 --> 21:08.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We wanna be on the radio, too, you know. 21:08.066 --> 21:09.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 21:09.266 --> 21:10.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] But for me, it was like, nah, 21:10.433 --> 21:12.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I wanna hang out with the old lefties. 21:12.100 --> 21:15.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] But in terms of the political activism, 21:15.000 --> 21:17.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and being an old leftie, you're hanging with the old 21:17.333 --> 21:19.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% lefties, the road has really risen to meet you, hasn't it? 21:19.966 --> 21:22.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The world that we're in right now, 21:22.333 --> 21:24.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% not entirely for good reasons, 21:24.233 --> 21:28.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% has activated and animated artists of all kinds to speak 21:28.166 --> 21:31.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% out and speak up and that's now a fundamental component of 21:31.500 --> 21:33.000 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% all art. 21:33.000 --> 21:37.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] I do feel much more receptivity around me, 21:37.266 --> 21:40.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% yeah, in these last few years. 21:40.366 --> 21:43.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% All kinds of people activating, like you say, 21:43.100 --> 21:44.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and it's very encouraging. 21:44.333 --> 21:47.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] I think, we have a few minutes left, 21:47.133 --> 21:48.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think about your activism, 21:48.833 --> 21:51.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% particularly on behalf of women, 21:51.100 --> 21:53.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on behalf of reproductive health, 21:53.633 --> 21:55.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% on behalf of specific issues 21:55.300 --> 21:56.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that you've been associated with 21:56.533 --> 21:59.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that have kind of blown up before our eyes. 21:59.300 --> 22:03.066 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% Here we sit in a week in which the State of Alabama 22:03.066 --> 22:07.200 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% has effectively, and I think without question, 22:07.200 --> 22:10.333 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% unconstitutionally, outlawed abortion. 22:10.333 --> 22:12.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We are all these years after Roe vs. Wade, 22:12.800 --> 22:14.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we are still having these fights. 22:14.233 --> 22:15.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] We are. 22:15.666 --> 22:16.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] We are still having this conversation, 22:16.900 --> 22:18.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it's extraordinary to me to think about it, 22:18.733 --> 22:20.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but maybe it shouldn't be that extraordinary, 22:20.133 --> 22:21.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and I thought to myself, 22:21.333 --> 22:23.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm gonna get to talk to you this week, 22:23.266 --> 22:25.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and I had to ask you about 22:25.366 --> 22:27.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what you're seeing play out nationally 22:27.433 --> 22:30.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because I know how strongly you feel about this. 22:30.033 --> 22:32.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Yeah, I mean, it's terrifying. 22:32.133 --> 22:34.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's just terrifying. 22:34.033 --> 22:36.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The effects on women's lives are profound, 22:36.800 --> 22:40.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and very destructive. 22:40.633 --> 22:44.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, you know, back to the fight, back to the struggle. 22:44.466 --> 22:49.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, honestly, it's so overwhelming in a lot of ways. 22:49.466 --> 22:51.433 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% I know I'm not alone in that, you know, 22:51.433 --> 22:56.266 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% this feeling of we are losing everything 22:56.266 --> 22:58.133 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% that we've ever fought for, 22:58.133 --> 23:02.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in terms of our rights in this country. 23:02.900 --> 23:06.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, the only thing I can sort of do in this moment 23:06.866 --> 23:11.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is sort of turn sometimes away from the huge monster 23:11.766 --> 23:16.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that is gobbling, you know, our beautiful, free country, 23:16.733 --> 23:20.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and turn my focus instead to the people all around me 23:20.633 --> 23:24.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who are doing amazing work in so many different arenas, 23:24.066 --> 23:27.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and say, "How can I help you? How can I help you," you know? 23:27.633 --> 23:31.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% How can we support each other, make each other stronger 23:31.633 --> 23:34.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because fighting that thing is just enough 23:34.966 --> 23:37.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to make us all curl in a ball. 23:37.200 --> 23:38.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] You've been doing this for so long, 23:38.433 --> 23:43.266 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% clearly something, Ani, has given way, 23:43.266 --> 23:44.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that this is where we are. 23:44.466 --> 23:48.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Something has materially occurred or changed. 23:48.700 --> 23:51.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Do you have any sense of what that is, or why it is? 23:51.500 --> 23:54.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Is this just a case of people being given permission 23:54.333 --> 23:56.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to say the quiet part out loud? 23:56.466 --> 23:57.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Like, what's going on? 23:57.966 --> 24:00.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Because it's not just this issue, or this set of issues. 24:00.800 --> 24:05.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's issues of race, it's issues of inequality. 24:05.433 --> 24:08.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's a pretty tentative moment right now 24:08.933 --> 24:10.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in all of our lives, isn't it? 24:10.400 --> 24:12.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Yeah. Well, it's been there all along, 24:12.566 --> 24:16.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the racism, the misogyny, the classism, the heterosexism, 24:16.733 --> 24:21.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it's just-- So, coming out into the light, 24:21.500 --> 24:24.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I hope, though it is very painful, 24:24.666 --> 24:26.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I hope that will be useful. 24:26.566 --> 24:29.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It will be easier for more of us to address it, 24:29.533 --> 24:33.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to see it, to not be able to deny it. 24:33.400 --> 24:37.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I have to believe, you know, 24:37.133 --> 24:40.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and some days it's hard and I make myself believe, 24:40.866 --> 24:42.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that what we're seeing 24:42.066 --> 24:44.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in this sort of top down political regression 24:44.700 --> 24:47.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is the shadow side of an awakening 24:47.966 --> 24:49.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that is happening from the ground up. 24:49.933 --> 24:51.200 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Yeah. 24:51.200 --> 24:54.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] And it is the push back of the people 24:54.900 --> 24:57.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who have held power for a long time, 24:57.033 --> 24:58.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% having to share, you know. 24:58.900 --> 25:03.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But I do believe there is an awakening that is happening. 25:03.900 --> 25:06.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I got kids, I look through their eyes 25:06.233 --> 25:10.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I see a better, more woke world, 25:10.133 --> 25:12.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and I think that that will be 25:12.366 --> 25:15.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the more lasting effect of this moment, 25:15.033 --> 25:17.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if we can survive the destruction-- 25:17.233 --> 25:18.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Silver lining. 25:18.166 --> 25:18.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Of the push back. 25:18.966 --> 25:19.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Silver lining. 25:19.766 --> 25:21.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% You working on a record? 25:21.300 --> 25:22.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [DIFRANCO] I am. 25:22.400 --> 25:23.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [SMITH] How soon? 25:23.933 --> 25:25.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [DIFRANCO] Well, I'm doing a little music tour next month 25:25.933 --> 25:28.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and then afterwards I'm gonna go in the studio and record. 25:28.633 --> 25:32.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I managed to eek out a few songs while working on that book, 25:32.433 --> 25:33.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% not as many as usual, 25:33.666 --> 25:37.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but I'm starting to crawl back to my guitar. 25:37.533 --> 25:40.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Hello, remember me? 25:40.166 --> 25:42.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Okay, well, we're waiting. 25:42.066 --> 25:43.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Sweet. 25:43.433 --> 25:44.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] All right, congratulations on the book 25:44.633 --> 25:45.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and everything else you're doing. 25:45.800 --> 25:46.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Ani DiFranco, thank you very much. 25:46.600 --> 25:47.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Thank you. 25:47.500 --> 25:52.433 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (loud applause) 25:52.433 --> 25:54.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:54.133 --> 25:58.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Visit our website at KLRU.org/Overheard 25:58.200 --> 26:00.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to find invitations to interviews, 26:00.433 --> 26:02.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Q&As with our audience and guests, 26:02.433 --> 26:05.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and an archive of past episodes. 26:05.266 --> 26:08.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [DIFRANCO] Your kids know who you are. 26:08.933 --> 26:10.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% They know how you feel. 26:10.733 --> 26:14.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% They know what matters to you. 26:14.433 --> 26:16.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I feel like my kids see through me. 26:16.400 --> 26:19.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I couldn't hide if I tried, you know? 26:19.066 --> 26:23.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So, for me, it just feels like, you know, 26:23.233 --> 26:27.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% just the daily process of being real. 26:27.400 --> 26:29.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [ANNOUNCER] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 26:29.866 --> 26:31.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is provided in part by 26:31.633 --> 26:35.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, 26:35.733 --> 26:38.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation, 26:38.366 --> 26:40.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart, 26:40.433 --> 26:42.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and by Entergy. 26:43.733 --> 26:45.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (soft chimes)