WEBVTT 00:01.466 --> 00:03.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] Funding for Overhead with Evan Smith 00:03.000 --> 00:05.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 00:05.900 --> 00:08.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a Texas Government Affairs Consultancy, 00:08.433 --> 00:11.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and by Claire and Carl Stuart. 00:12.833 --> 00:13.966 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - I'm Evan Smith. 00:13.966 --> 00:15.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% She's a veteran journalist, commentator, 00:15.833 --> 00:17.633 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and social media phenom 00:17.633 --> 00:21.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% who hosts the Crooked Media Podcast With Friends Like These. 00:21.033 --> 00:23.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% She's Ana Marie Cox, this is Overheard. 00:23.766 --> 00:25.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% (electronic music) (applause) 00:25.066 --> 00:26.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - [Evan Voiceover] Let's be honest. 00:26.333 --> 00:28.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Is this about the ability to learn, 00:28.100 --> 00:29.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% or is this about the experience 00:29.666 --> 00:31.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of not having been taught properly? 00:31.200 --> 00:33.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% How have you avoided what has befallen 00:33.166 --> 00:34.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% other nations in Africa. 00:34.900 --> 00:36.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And you could say that he made his own bed, 00:36.366 --> 00:38.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but you caused him to sleep in it. 00:38.300 --> 00:40.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Evan Voiceover] You saw a problem and, over time, 00:40.733 --> 00:41.566 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% took it on. 00:41.566 --> 00:43.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughter) 00:43.100 --> 00:44.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 00:44.366 --> 00:45.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Are you gonna run for president? 00:45.633 --> 00:47.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think I just got an F from you actually. 00:47.633 --> 00:48.733 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughter) 00:48.733 --> 00:50.966 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (applause) 00:53.800 --> 00:54.633 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - [Evan] Ana, hi. 00:54.633 --> 00:55.866 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - [Ana] Hello, Evan. 00:55.866 --> 00:56.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - [Evan] Always better when I'm with you. 00:56.966 --> 00:58.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Aww, thank you! - Aww. 00:58.166 --> 00:59.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - [Ana] I love being with you, too! 00:59.000 --> 00:59.966 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Good to see you. 00:59.966 --> 01:01.500 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% So I wanna ask you a question 01:01.500 --> 01:03.500 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% that I probably should have asked you 15 years ago. 01:03.500 --> 01:05.466 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% What's the secret to interviewing somebody? 01:05.466 --> 01:06.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I probably could have used-- (Ana laughing) 01:06.966 --> 01:08.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I probably could have used this advice a long time ago, 01:08.466 --> 01:12.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but you've become incredibly good at it on your podcast 01:12.166 --> 01:13.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and in the two years that you did the back page 01:13.933 --> 01:15.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of the New York Times Sunday Magazine. 01:15.433 --> 01:16.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I thought you had figured out 01:16.733 --> 01:18.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the secret to doing this right, 01:18.100 --> 01:20.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% so share the secret with us. 01:20.100 --> 01:21.533 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - It's listening. 01:21.533 --> 01:22.633 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - That's it? 01:22.633 --> 01:24.300 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - I think so. 01:24.300 --> 01:26.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% That's what my 20 years in journalism has taught me. 01:26.866 --> 01:28.066 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 01:28.066 --> 01:29.700 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% - If I had anything to add to that, 01:29.700 --> 01:31.566 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% it's something that kind of goes along with listening, 01:31.566 --> 01:33.033 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% and maybe it's more important, actually. 01:33.033 --> 01:35.466 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% Maybe this is the real secret, which is curiosity. 01:35.466 --> 01:38.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% To be genuinely curious about someone. 01:38.666 --> 01:40.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Regardless of the subject, regardless of the person, 01:40.566 --> 01:41.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% because not every interview, 01:41.866 --> 01:44.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% we can't all interview DJ Khaled every week. 01:44.700 --> 01:46.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I mean, the fact is, there are individual people 01:46.866 --> 01:48.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who probably, by virtue of their personality 01:48.700 --> 01:49.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% or celebrity or accomplishments, 01:49.966 --> 01:51.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% you think, "Oh, I'm psyched! 01:51.500 --> 01:52.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "I get to interview that person!" 01:52.766 --> 01:54.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I woke up today and thought-- (Ana laughs) 01:54.700 --> 01:57.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "Ana! This is gonna be a good day!" 01:57.000 --> 02:00.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But some days you know it's more of a job. 02:00.400 --> 02:04.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I've been blessed to be able to shape the job a little bit 02:04.766 --> 02:08.600 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% at the Times and with the podcast 02:08.600 --> 02:11.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that my bar is, generally, I have to be curious 02:11.900 --> 02:13.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% about something about this person. 02:13.300 --> 02:14.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And you make the decision, generally speaking, 02:14.400 --> 02:15.466 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 02:15.466 --> 02:16.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - About who you see. - Yeah. 02:16.700 --> 02:17.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - You're not working for somebody else; 02:17.866 --> 02:18.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% you're working for you. 02:18.700 --> 02:19.533 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Finally, right! 02:19.533 --> 02:20.766 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Finally, right. 02:20.766 --> 02:22.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I've actually been working for myself 02:22.466 --> 02:23.800 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% for a long time I guess. 02:23.800 --> 02:26.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - But in this respect, you're setting the table 02:26.433 --> 02:30.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% every week or every interview in terms of who, 02:30.466 --> 02:32.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% you can say yes or no. 02:32.000 --> 02:33.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right, and also, I would point out 02:33.700 --> 02:36.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that DJ Khaled was one of my most amazing interviews 02:36.933 --> 02:39.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that I've ever had because he was so surprising. 02:39.033 --> 02:40.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I know how much you enjoyed that on, which is why-- 02:40.200 --> 02:41.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - And so genuine, 02:41.600 --> 02:44.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and also I was genuinely curious about him. 02:44.133 --> 02:47.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I'm old and didn't know much about what the kids listen to, 02:47.433 --> 02:49.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% so I kind of went into that interview, 02:49.566 --> 02:52.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% knowing he was a DJ (laughs). 02:52.633 --> 02:54.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% It's in his name. (laughs) 02:54.933 --> 02:56.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Helpful branding, right. 02:56.700 --> 02:59.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right, and knowing he was on social media 02:59.066 --> 03:00.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but not knowing a whole lot about him, 03:00.433 --> 03:01.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% so I was genuinely curious. 03:01.966 --> 03:04.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And what was amazing about that interview was 03:04.566 --> 03:06.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% he was also genuinely curious about me. 03:06.400 --> 03:08.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It was like this weird thing where he was like, 03:10.133 --> 03:11.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% why do I want to know this-- - I don't get that much, 03:11.300 --> 03:12.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% by the way. (audience laughts) 03:12.800 --> 03:14.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Right, right, right, no, but I think it speaks to him 03:14.233 --> 03:15.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% as an interesting person. 03:15.533 --> 03:17.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Sure, but he's unusual in that respect. 03:17.566 --> 03:18.766 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yes. 03:18.766 --> 03:20.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Because if someone has a record to promote 03:20.000 --> 03:21.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or a book to promote or a movie to promote, 03:21.333 --> 03:23.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% they're on that script, right? 03:23.000 --> 03:25.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Right, but he was genuinely there for this interview, 03:25.333 --> 03:26.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% which I think just speaks, again, 03:26.533 --> 03:29.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to his kind of unique star quality. 03:29.300 --> 03:31.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I love the fact that you wanted to interview him 03:31.900 --> 03:33.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% because, in some respects, 03:33.366 --> 03:36.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the best job of the interviewer is to put himself or herself 03:36.966 --> 03:39.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% into the place of the member of the audience. 03:39.033 --> 03:39.866 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 03:39.866 --> 03:41.100 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right? 03:41.100 --> 03:42.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You're there as a proxy for them. 03:42.700 --> 03:44.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - That's another good thing to remember, 03:44.266 --> 03:45.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but I will point out that DJ Khaled, 03:45.766 --> 03:47.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% one of the reasons he's a little bit of an exception, 03:47.466 --> 03:49.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is because he was genuinely famous. 03:51.066 --> 03:53.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Without doing the New York Times back page, 03:53.600 --> 03:54.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% is gonna be fine. 03:54.900 --> 03:56.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - He didn't need the New York Times, right, yeah. 03:56.200 --> 03:58.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - But for the most part, my editors there and I, 03:58.500 --> 04:03.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and on the podcast, I steer away from the super famous 04:03.133 --> 04:06.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because I'm not usually very curious about them. 04:06.266 --> 04:07.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well, the fact is we know a lot about them 04:08.666 --> 04:09.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% because they're super famous, 04:09.600 --> 04:10.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% or maybe they're super famous 04:10.833 --> 04:13.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because we know a lot about them or something. 04:13.133 --> 04:15.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - For whatever reason, I just don't have a lot of curiosity. 04:15.366 --> 04:16.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I mean, there are some famous people 04:16.500 --> 04:18.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% whom I'm still pretty curious about. 04:18.000 --> 04:20.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I would probably never turn down an interview with Obama, 04:20.766 --> 04:22.000 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% for instance. - Yes. 04:22.000 --> 04:25.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% (Ana and members of audience laughing) 04:25.466 --> 04:27.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I can confirm, it was interesting, yes. 04:27.733 --> 04:30.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yes, and also he plays his cards so close to the vest. 04:30.566 --> 04:32.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Right, if you think you're in control of an interview 04:32.233 --> 04:34.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% with Obama, you are nuts. 04:34.066 --> 04:35.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right. (audience laughs) 04:35.533 --> 04:37.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And also, there's always something to know about him. 04:37.533 --> 04:39.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He has some much he hasn't said, right? 04:39.766 --> 04:40.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - [Evan] Correct, correct. 04:40.933 --> 04:42.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - That's what's fascinating about him. 04:42.400 --> 04:44.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% But for the most part, the people I wanna talk to 04:44.133 --> 04:46.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% are people that have come across my radar 04:46.633 --> 04:49.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% for whatever reason that have, 04:49.000 --> 04:51.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a lot of them, what prompts my interest is, 04:51.666 --> 04:53.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% they've experienced a change in their lives, 04:53.533 --> 04:56.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% a transformation in their lives of some kind, 04:56.133 --> 04:58.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% a conversion, an arc, a story. 04:58.533 --> 05:01.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And I wanna know how they got from there to here. 05:01.133 --> 05:02.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Right, process, not substance. 05:02.700 --> 05:03.966 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 05:03.966 --> 05:05.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, I actually think that's the-- 05:05.233 --> 05:06.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well, that gets you the substance. 05:06.233 --> 05:07.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well, of course it is. - Yeah. 05:07.233 --> 05:08.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Process is substance-- - Right. 05:08.666 --> 05:10.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - for purposes of this discussion, but I love that 05:10.100 --> 05:11.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because you're not simply looking at the thing 05:11.333 --> 05:12.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that's right here and is obvious, 05:12.566 --> 05:14.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but you're saying, "What's over here?" 05:14.433 --> 05:17.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And, again, some people you interview 05:17.133 --> 05:19.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% are willing to play that game and some are not. 05:19.900 --> 05:21.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Sometimes you're playing tennis, 05:21.133 --> 05:22.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but sometimes you're playing handball. 05:22.466 --> 05:24.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yes, and I can also tell you, probably, 05:24.666 --> 05:26.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I could probably rattle off some of the people 05:26.800 --> 05:28.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that were like that, but I won't. 05:28.333 --> 05:30.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I'll give you one if you give me one. 05:30.900 --> 05:32.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We've both been doing this a long time. 05:32.366 --> 05:34.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You name your handball interview, I'll name mine. 05:34.200 --> 05:37.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - OK, just because I think she's gonna be fine, 05:38.933 --> 05:40.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but it was really difficult to interview 05:40.566 --> 05:42.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the head librarian of Congress 05:42.466 --> 05:43.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% who's this wonderful woman. 05:43.933 --> 05:45.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - That was like the last person 05:45.633 --> 05:46.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I thought you were gonna say. 05:46.466 --> 05:47.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughs) 05:47.700 --> 05:49.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - But this is what was interesting about her is 05:49.366 --> 05:51.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% she's the first African-American, 05:52.233 --> 05:53.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think she might be the first woman 05:53.200 --> 05:54.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% who's the librarian of Congress. 05:54.266 --> 05:55.633 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - [Evan] Period? 05:55.633 --> 05:57.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Period, first African-American, period. 05:57.733 --> 05:59.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And she sticks to my mind 05:59.233 --> 06:01.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because she wanted to do so well in that interview, 06:01.466 --> 06:05.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but she was just telling me about the Library of Congress. 06:05.533 --> 06:06.766 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (laughing) 06:06.766 --> 06:08.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And you couldn't get her off of that, right? 06:08.533 --> 06:11.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right, and I wanted to know her story, 06:11.033 --> 06:12.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% but she seemed so, she was like, 06:14.366 --> 06:16.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and, I mean, I could name a famous person, too, 06:16.633 --> 06:17.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% but she sticks in my mind 06:17.833 --> 06:19.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because we were both trying so hard. 06:19.633 --> 06:21.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We were trying to make that interview work. 06:21.133 --> 06:23.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And she, fortunately, was kind of interesting 06:23.433 --> 06:26.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% just because of who she was. 06:26.333 --> 06:29.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I love the fact that, that's the one you mentioned! 06:30.633 --> 06:32.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% 'Cause there have to be celebrities who, 06:32.166 --> 06:33.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it turned out, didn't give a crap 06:33.966 --> 06:34.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% about being interviewed. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 06:34.900 --> 06:36.400 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% Yeah, sure. - Right? 06:36.400 --> 06:37.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They just showed up, and they were like, "Yeah, whatever," 06:37.600 --> 06:39.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and they're looking at their watch. 06:39.033 --> 06:40.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - She sticks in my mind 'cause it's one of the hardest 06:40.300 --> 06:42.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% 'cause there was no bad feelings whatsoever, 06:42.133 --> 06:43.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and we were both trying so hard. 06:43.266 --> 06:44.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% If someone wants to play along, 06:44.666 --> 06:45.633 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 06:45.633 --> 06:47.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - It's hard to have it go badly, 06:47.400 --> 06:49.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% so that's the one that sticks with me 06:49.733 --> 06:51.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because I feel like I wanna fix that problem. 06:51.700 --> 06:54.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - But isn't it partly the case that some of these folks, 06:54.300 --> 06:56.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% celebrities in big quotes 'cause now the definition 06:56.900 --> 06:59.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of celebrity has morphed over time, right? 06:59.200 --> 07:00.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% People who you think should be celebrities aren't, 07:00.800 --> 07:03.900 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% and people who shouldn't be celebrities absolutely are. 07:03.900 --> 07:05.133 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% Part of the time it's them, 07:05.133 --> 07:06.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and part of the time they've been trained. 07:06.333 --> 07:07.566 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - [Ana] Right. 07:07.566 --> 07:08.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right, it's not the personality 07:08.900 --> 07:10.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% is the resistant aspect to it. 07:10.533 --> 07:12.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's just that they've been told, "Don't do this. 07:12.000 --> 07:13.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% "Stay on the leash." 07:13.466 --> 07:15.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And I think our job is to get them to stray. 07:15.833 --> 07:17.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Our job is to get them off the leash. 07:17.433 --> 07:19.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Right, and I guess, hmm. 07:19.133 --> 07:20.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I'm trying to think of why. 07:20.600 --> 07:22.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I feel like I picked this woman out of obscurity 07:22.333 --> 07:24.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to tell her, to say she's a bad interview. 07:24.333 --> 07:27.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% But, again, I'm thinking about because that's the one 07:27.033 --> 07:28.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that I feel like I should have been able to do something. 07:28.900 --> 07:30.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Could have fixed it. - Could have fixed it. 07:30.366 --> 07:31.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Well, you know, we all wanna fix everything, right? 07:31.700 --> 07:32.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That's it, that's it, human nature. 07:32.966 --> 07:34.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, but whereas with some of these, 07:34.233 --> 07:35.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% often I get to say, "Well, it was them." 07:35.533 --> 07:37.066 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 07:37.066 --> 07:38.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - It was the celebrity that didn't cooperate over there, 07:38.300 --> 07:40.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% over-trained or whatever. - Right. 07:40.100 --> 07:42.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I mean, name most of the celebrities I've interviewed, 07:42.166 --> 07:43.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the reason DJ Khaled sticks out is 07:43.433 --> 07:45.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because he was so genuinely there. 07:45.000 --> 07:48.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You know who else was great is Allison Janney. 07:48.033 --> 07:51.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - You know, her personality seems to suggest 07:51.200 --> 07:52.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that she'd be a blast to talk to. 07:52.966 --> 07:54.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - And Rashida Jones also. 07:54.333 --> 07:55.166 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Rashida Jones? 07:55.166 --> 07:56.333 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - There were people-- 07:56.333 --> 07:57.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - You talked to Rashida Jones about porn. 07:57.100 --> 07:58.033 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yeah! 07:58.033 --> 07:59.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - I remember that interview. 07:59.566 --> 08:01.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, and we actually had some stuff we couldn't use. 08:01.066 --> 08:03.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Well. (Ana and audience laughing) 08:03.066 --> 08:05.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The second half of my sentence inevitably goes there, 08:05.866 --> 08:07.333 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I mean, now, come on! 08:07.333 --> 08:08.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I don't think she would, it was on the record! 08:08.900 --> 08:10.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It was just couldn't be published in the New York Times. 08:10.733 --> 08:12.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - 'Cause the New York Times is still the New York Times. 08:12.266 --> 08:13.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That's how that goes. - Right, exactly. 08:13.700 --> 08:15.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Do you have a white whale as an interviewer? 08:15.533 --> 08:18.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Is there somebody you've not been able to catch up to yet? 08:18.533 --> 08:21.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Besides Obama, um, Stephen King. 08:22.733 --> 08:24.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - He would be kind of weird and interesting, wouldn't he? 08:24.966 --> 08:26.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Yeah, well, he's in recovery, 08:26.400 --> 08:28.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% which not a lot of people know, I guess. 08:28.466 --> 08:29.966 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% He's public about it, 08:29.966 --> 08:30.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but it's just not part of the first thing you think of 08:30.900 --> 08:32.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% when you think of Stephen King. 08:32.833 --> 08:33.766 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% And I am also-- 08:33.766 --> 08:35.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - As someone in recovery, 08:35.333 --> 08:37.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% would you want to talk to him necessarily about that? 08:37.766 --> 08:39.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Or absolutely you would want to talk to him about that? 08:39.433 --> 08:40.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Oh, I definitely would come up. 08:40.766 --> 08:41.600 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 08:41.600 --> 08:42.433 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - 'Cause I'm interested, 08:43.600 --> 08:45.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% so being in recovery is like a lot of other 08:45.033 --> 08:46.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% kind of semi-marginal identities 08:46.933 --> 08:49.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% where you always have your antennae up. 08:49.000 --> 08:50.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Like you're from Texas, right? - Right, you're always-- 08:50.500 --> 08:52.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - You're always, who's from Texas. 08:52.166 --> 08:53.666 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 08:53.666 --> 08:55.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - So it's always something that I'm paying attention to 08:55.366 --> 08:56.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in his interviews and in his books. 08:56.900 --> 09:00.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I'm a huge fan, just a huge fan of his writing as well, 09:00.166 --> 09:02.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and so I'm always very curious about how he treats it. 09:02.300 --> 09:04.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% He's one of the few authors that I feel incorporates 09:04.800 --> 09:07.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% some of the themes from recovery really smoothly. 09:07.966 --> 09:09.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% It's just like when it comes up, 09:09.133 --> 09:10.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% it's just a part of the book. 09:10.400 --> 09:11.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Can we all see it? 09:13.233 --> 09:14.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% 'Cause this is news to me. 09:14.466 --> 09:15.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm a Stephen King reader and fan, 09:15.866 --> 09:18.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and I don't know that my antennae was up. 09:18.133 --> 09:20.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Right, I'm not sure if you would see it as recovery, 09:20.633 --> 09:21.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% which is maybe part of the point, 09:21.933 --> 09:22.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% but for instance... 09:22.933 --> 09:24.666 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - But it's thematic. 09:24.666 --> 09:26.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Yeah, but like The Shining, 09:26.600 --> 09:29.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% which he wrote when he was still drinking and using, 09:29.833 --> 09:31.866 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% is about alcoholism. 09:31.866 --> 09:34.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I mean, it is the trope of the novel. 09:34.033 --> 09:35.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I don't care what it's about, it's so great. 09:35.800 --> 09:36.966 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Oh, it's so great! 09:36.966 --> 09:38.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Right, and it holds up. 09:38.433 --> 09:39.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Right, but the thing is, 09:39.800 --> 09:42.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it's about how this guy can't escape his demons. 09:42.100 --> 09:42.933 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Correct. 09:42.933 --> 09:44.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Right, he goes, 09:44.400 --> 09:46.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and actually there's stuff in the big book of AA 09:46.766 --> 09:48.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that talks about going to Alaska 09:48.933 --> 09:50.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to try and hide from the bottle. 09:50.433 --> 09:53.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And so an Eskimo turns up with some whiskey, 09:53.600 --> 09:56.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and that's like, I wonder sometimes if he almost, if he, 09:56.933 --> 09:58.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% well, he wasn't sober then, 09:58.433 --> 09:59.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% so he wouldn't have been able to get it from there. 09:59.766 --> 10:00.966 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - But you can see. 10:00.966 --> 10:03.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - But you can see this, and then I also, 10:03.833 --> 10:05.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The Shining was one of the first books I read 10:05.466 --> 10:07.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% after I got sober, re-read it. 10:09.333 --> 10:10.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It was still frightening in all the ways 10:10.966 --> 10:12.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that you would think it would be, 10:12.166 --> 10:15.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but I remember the scene where Jack walks in 10:15.666 --> 10:19.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to the Overlooks Bar and it's all dusty, 10:19.000 --> 10:21.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and the chairs are up and the tarps over everything. 10:21.400 --> 10:22.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Then he walks up to the bar, 10:22.833 --> 10:27.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and all of a sudden the bottles appear glittering behind, 10:27.366 --> 10:29.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and it gives me chills even now. 10:29.100 --> 10:31.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, oh god, that whole bar thing. (dramatically exhales) 10:31.200 --> 10:34.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - But just the idea, like you've done everything you can 10:34.800 --> 10:36.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to get away from this demon. 10:36.033 --> 10:37.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - [Evan] Can't, but you can't. 10:37.700 --> 10:39.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It's right there. - It's right there. 10:39.233 --> 10:40.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I wanna come back to recovery and you 10:40.933 --> 10:43.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and your story in a strange way to talk 10:43.666 --> 10:47.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% about how that has changed you professionally. 10:47.433 --> 10:49.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But I wanna talk about the podcast 10:49.000 --> 10:52.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because talking about your awesome interview skills, 10:52.666 --> 10:53.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% back page of the New York Times, 10:53.833 --> 10:55.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and now particularly the podcast. 10:55.400 --> 10:57.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% With Friends Like These has just posted, as we sit here, 10:57.733 --> 11:00.266 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% the last episode of season one. 11:00.266 --> 11:01.600 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% There will be a season two. - Yes. 11:01.600 --> 11:04.166 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% - This is part of an empire of podcasts, 11:05.600 --> 11:08.566 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% the Crooked Media podcasts, Pod Save American, et cetera, 11:08.566 --> 11:11.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% these former Obama folks who have created, 11:12.600 --> 11:13.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I guess an empire, there's nothing else, 11:13.800 --> 11:14.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I don't know what else to say about them. 11:14.966 --> 11:16.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - A fiefdom. - It's a fiefdom. 11:17.400 --> 11:19.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% But you have been an essential element of this, 11:19.033 --> 11:23.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and I wonder whether the form or the format 11:23.166 --> 11:25.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% feels to you like journalism. 11:25.300 --> 11:27.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Does it feel to you like the work you were doing before? 11:27.366 --> 11:28.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% What's the same about it? 11:28.433 --> 11:29.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% What's different about it? 11:31.633 --> 11:34.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - I think of journalism as being 11:34.300 --> 11:39.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a thing you produce and not a job title. 11:39.033 --> 11:41.300 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Yep, that's right. 11:41.300 --> 11:42.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Are we producing journalism? 11:42.966 --> 11:44.500 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% I think so. - Right, yeah. 11:45.900 --> 11:48.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's the delivery mechanism that's the difference. 11:48.133 --> 11:49.100 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 11:49.100 --> 11:50.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - But it works, and the fact is, 11:50.600 --> 11:53.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it didn't exist before, when you started out. 11:53.600 --> 11:55.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That was the platform available to you. 11:55.266 --> 11:57.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% This platform now is available, along with many others. 11:57.600 --> 11:59.466 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% And that's one of the nice things about the work that we do. 11:59.466 --> 12:01.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% There's many places for us to do it. 12:01.033 --> 12:03.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right, I absolutely love podcasting. 12:03.933 --> 12:07.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% If I had known this was a thing you could do before... 12:07.900 --> 12:09.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - [Evan] Right, DIY. 12:09.100 --> 12:10.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Would have picked this, maybe. 12:10.266 --> 12:11.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I mean, it still existed. 12:11.500 --> 12:12.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I remember hearing the word podcast 12:12.866 --> 12:15.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% for the first time sometime in the early 2000s 12:15.066 --> 12:17.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and thinking it was a stupid name. 12:17.466 --> 12:20.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And I still kind of do 'cause it comes from iPod. 12:20.200 --> 12:22.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That's-- - That's the pod portion 12:22.066 --> 12:23.000 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% of podcast, yes. 12:23.000 --> 12:24.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - That's the pod portion of it. 12:24.466 --> 12:27.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It was Apple trying to invent a thing, and at first it-- 12:27.566 --> 12:29.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - At the same time, though, look what's happened. 12:29.233 --> 12:31.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You've joined, as we said, a fiefdom, 12:31.266 --> 12:32.500 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 12:32.500 --> 12:33.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Where they've put the word pod. 12:33.566 --> 12:34.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - I know, isn't that crazy? 12:34.800 --> 12:36.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Pod Save America, right? - Yeah. 12:36.266 --> 12:38.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I actually, you should do Pod Bless Texas. 12:38.800 --> 12:39.800 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughs) 12:39.800 --> 12:40.733 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Don't you think? 12:40.733 --> 12:41.666 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Pod Bless Texas? 12:41.666 --> 12:42.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I would be, I would, yes! 12:42.933 --> 12:44.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I mean, I like the whole, I mean, I-- 12:44.533 --> 12:46.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Just put Pod in front of everything, and it's better. 12:46.533 --> 12:47.800 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% It's like salt, right? 12:47.800 --> 12:50.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, I love it, I think it's hilarious. 12:50.366 --> 12:52.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I would be happy to be, 12:52.000 --> 12:54.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Podsy the Pixels is one of the ones we thought about, too, 12:54.100 --> 12:55.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% like a video game themed podcast. 12:55.066 --> 12:56.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 12:56.333 --> 12:58.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And then if we wanted to do one about faith, 12:58.366 --> 13:01.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it would just be like pod you, like pod, 13:01.566 --> 13:02.800 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% I don't know! 13:02.800 --> 13:04.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It creates all kinds of possibilities, yeah. 13:06.466 --> 13:09.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% By necessity, by definition, if you do a podcast, 13:09.500 --> 13:11.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and you are one of the voices on the podcast, 13:11.700 --> 13:14.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% aren't you a character in every podcast 13:14.466 --> 13:16.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in a way that you aren't necessarily 13:16.633 --> 13:18.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% when you're doing traditional reporting 13:18.966 --> 13:20.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% or writing that's in print? 13:20.633 --> 13:25.533 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% I don't think of the authorial voice as such a feature 13:25.533 --> 13:27.600 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% on the print side of this work, 13:27.600 --> 13:29.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but there's no way to avoid it when you're right there. 13:29.800 --> 13:31.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I think we're just more aware of it. 13:31.266 --> 13:32.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - And I'm listening to you. 13:32.733 --> 13:34.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - We're just more aware of it, it's always a part of it. 13:34.733 --> 13:36.433 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% You know this as well as I do. 13:36.433 --> 13:38.200 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% If you actually work in journalism, 13:38.200 --> 13:41.066 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% the voice of an author you realize is a creation 13:41.066 --> 13:42.833 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% and a character, right? - Yeah. 13:42.833 --> 13:44.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I remember, I just saw Lawrence Wright 13:44.233 --> 13:46.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% as a picture of him up on your wall. 13:46.200 --> 13:48.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% He's one of my favorite authors, and it's his voice! 13:48.066 --> 13:49.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Which you may not think of as-- 13:49.600 --> 13:54.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - It's sober and steady and authoritative and credible, 13:54.333 --> 13:55.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and he probably doesn't think, 13:55.700 --> 13:58.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "I get up every day to tend to that brand," 13:58.133 --> 13:59.100 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - [Ana] Right. 13:59.100 --> 14:00.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - But it's there, it's organic. 14:00.666 --> 14:02.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Right, but the point of a lot of traditional journalism 14:02.066 --> 14:04.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is to have that voice be invisible, but it's still there. 14:04.900 --> 14:06.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And you can tell when it goes wrong. 14:06.466 --> 14:08.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right, and for a long time, there was, 14:08.300 --> 14:12.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in our profession, Ana, institutions told individuals, 14:12.233 --> 14:13.733 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% you can't have a voice. 14:13.733 --> 14:15.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - What they meant was that you need a really specific voice 14:15.666 --> 14:16.866 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% that's almost invisible. 14:16.866 --> 14:19.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well, or you have to somehow lean 14:19.133 --> 14:20.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% into the institutional voice. - Right. 14:20.700 --> 14:21.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - I think of, this is my, 14:21.933 --> 14:23.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% when I talk about social media people, 14:23.466 --> 14:27.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I say that, once upon a time, only institutions had brands. 14:27.266 --> 14:28.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Individuals could not have brands 14:28.666 --> 14:29.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% distinct from the institution. 14:29.933 --> 14:31.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You had to subordinate your individual brand 14:31.533 --> 14:32.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to the institution brand. 14:32.800 --> 14:34.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Today, individual brands are the rocket boosters 14:34.766 --> 14:36.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that power institutional brands. 14:36.233 --> 14:37.166 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Definitely. 14:37.166 --> 14:38.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Not only is it acceptable, 14:38.633 --> 14:40.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% it's a requirement that everybody who comes to work 14:40.133 --> 14:42.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in an organization that produces content, 14:42.100 --> 14:43.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you've got to have an individual brand. 14:43.900 --> 14:46.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And that individual voice, then, becomes so important. 14:46.233 --> 14:48.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And I come back to yours. 14:48.066 --> 14:50.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I know what I think your voice is. 14:50.066 --> 14:52.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% What do you think your voice is? 14:52.200 --> 14:53.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Is it a deliberate decision on your part, 14:53.766 --> 14:56.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to craft the personae that's on this podcast? 14:57.766 --> 15:01.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It's not as deliberate as, say, Wonkette was. 15:01.100 --> 15:02.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Wonkette was a character. 15:02.366 --> 15:03.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right, so for the benefit of people 15:03.566 --> 15:06.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who are younger than-- - Right, yeah. 15:06.666 --> 15:07.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - 14 or whatever who don't remember, 15:07.700 --> 15:09.166 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (Ana laughing) 15:09.166 --> 15:12.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Wonkette was, you were OG political blog. 15:12.033 --> 15:13.100 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - [Ana] Right. 15:13.100 --> 15:14.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - You were, back in the day, 15:14.566 --> 15:16.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% before everybody got in this business where everybody 15:16.833 --> 15:18.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% realized they could just have their own thing, 15:18.300 --> 15:19.766 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% you had your own thing. 15:19.766 --> 15:21.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Right, and Wonkette was, I used to say it was, 15:21.333 --> 15:23.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% well, at the time, I actually said it was drunk me, 15:23.966 --> 15:27.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% which, mostly true because I was drunk a lot. 15:27.366 --> 15:28.900 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% - Hilarious! (both laugh) 15:28.900 --> 15:30.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, I know, I made so many jokes about drinking 15:30.166 --> 15:31.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% back when I was drinking. 15:31.400 --> 15:32.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I still make jokes about drinking, 15:32.333 --> 15:34.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% but they're just true now. 15:34.133 --> 15:37.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - But it was a very insightful non-traditionally-- 15:37.800 --> 15:38.833 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 15:38.833 --> 15:40.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Crafted and created, - Right. 15:40.066 --> 15:42.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - But very insightful blog on the culture 15:42.300 --> 15:43.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% of politics and Washington. 15:43.800 --> 15:45.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And it was just kind of like foul-mouthed and irreverent, 15:45.633 --> 15:48.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% which is me, also, not drinking. 15:48.433 --> 15:49.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm still that today. - Yeah. 15:51.133 --> 15:52.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - We'll get back to the recovery part, 15:52.633 --> 15:56.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but I think what's interesting about With Friend Like These 15:56.433 --> 16:00.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% is that I'm more genuinely me. 16:00.400 --> 16:02.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I don't need a character anymore. 16:02.033 --> 16:03.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - [Evan] Right, the character is you. 16:03.333 --> 16:04.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - The character is me. - Yep. 16:04.800 --> 16:08.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And I feel like, I do feel like it's a conversation 16:08.800 --> 16:09.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and not an interview. - Yep. 16:09.966 --> 16:13.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And that my presence is a gift to... 16:13.866 --> 16:17.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that sounds so crazy, but I don't mean like I'm a gift. 16:17.233 --> 16:20.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I just mean, to reveal some of yourself is something 16:20.966 --> 16:23.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that a person can offer an audience. 16:23.133 --> 16:24.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Well, you've hit on something 16:24.300 --> 16:26.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that dovetails back to your saying 16:26.100 --> 16:27.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that listening is the most important element 16:27.300 --> 16:29.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of being an interviewer. - Right. 16:29.033 --> 16:30.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - The best interviews, I think, are conversations. 16:30.700 --> 16:31.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They're not interrogations. - Right. 16:31.933 --> 16:33.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right, they're not facilitated monologues. 16:33.933 --> 16:34.900 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 16:34.900 --> 16:36.166 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - They're conversations. 16:36.166 --> 16:37.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And also, I think that being present, 16:37.466 --> 16:39.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% being truly present for an interview, 16:39.300 --> 16:42.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the giving of yourself encourages the other person 16:42.266 --> 16:44.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to give too, right? - Right, that's true. 16:44.300 --> 16:46.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - To be vulnerable encourages vulnerability, 16:46.533 --> 16:49.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and to be genuinely curious encourages vulnerability. 16:49.433 --> 16:51.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% But one of the ways that you show genuine curiosity is 16:51.766 --> 16:53.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to lay your cards on the table, 16:53.900 --> 16:56.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to be like, this is what I think I know. 16:56.000 --> 16:56.966 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - [Evan] Right. 16:56.966 --> 16:59.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Can you tell me more? - Yep. 16:59.033 --> 17:02.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And I think that that is, when that happens, 17:02.166 --> 17:05.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I'm not thinking about being present as a character. 17:05.366 --> 17:06.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm thinking just-- - Right. 17:06.700 --> 17:08.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - What is this conversation doing right now? 17:08.166 --> 17:10.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Oh, my god, I feel something that is different in me 17:10.766 --> 17:12.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because of the things that I've heard. 17:12.233 --> 17:14.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I feel like the best episodes of With Friends Like These 17:14.300 --> 17:19.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% have been episodes where I have had to... 17:22.233 --> 17:24.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The theme of the show is uncomfortable conversations. 17:24.866 --> 17:26.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% One of the compliments I get from listeners is 17:26.100 --> 17:28.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that I don't often feel uncomfortable, 17:29.500 --> 17:30.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it doesn't feel uncomfortable to them. 17:30.733 --> 17:31.666 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - To them. 17:31.666 --> 17:34.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - To them, and that's true. 17:34.266 --> 17:36.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I have some comfort with discomfort, if that makes sense. 17:36.466 --> 17:38.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Well, also, it certainly seems like, in sometimes, 17:38.733 --> 17:40.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% it feels uncomfortable to you. 17:40.033 --> 17:41.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - But that's when I know it's really good. 17:41.533 --> 17:42.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - That's when it's working? 17:42.466 --> 17:43.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - That's when it's working. 17:43.700 --> 17:44.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - So here's the comparison again. 17:44.633 --> 17:45.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I'm gonna make a comparison, 17:45.900 --> 17:46.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and I'm gonna use Alec Baldwin again 17:46.833 --> 17:48.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% because I think Alec Baldwin, 17:48.333 --> 17:52.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% who has a longtime podcast that originates out of WNYC 17:52.500 --> 17:54.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in New York called Here's the Thing. 17:54.000 --> 17:55.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And it's an interview program, 17:55.033 --> 17:56.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and he's actually pretty good. 17:56.300 --> 17:57.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. 17:57.133 --> 17:58.533 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - As far as it goes, 17:58.533 --> 18:00.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but he does not show vulnerability or discomfort. 18:00.233 --> 18:01.166 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Nooo! 18:01.166 --> 18:02.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - He shows only certainty. 18:02.900 --> 18:04.400 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 18:04.400 --> 18:06.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - He absolutely knows as much as the people he interviews, 18:06.166 --> 18:08.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and that's part of his brand is that he knows everything. 18:08.766 --> 18:10.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He is basically Jack Donaghy from, right? 18:10.500 --> 18:12.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, oh god, it's so hard to tell the difference, yeah. 18:12.166 --> 18:13.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Whereas Marc Maron-- - Right. 18:13.433 --> 18:15.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Who has been doing the podcast almost as long, 18:15.433 --> 18:16.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% is all vulnerability. 18:16.700 --> 18:18.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - You know, all three of us are in recovery. 18:18.166 --> 18:19.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Well, see, there you go. 18:19.100 --> 18:20.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% (Ana and audience laughing) 18:20.333 --> 18:22.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I didn't understand, there's the theme! 18:22.866 --> 18:24.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But Marc Maron is all discomfort, 18:24.500 --> 18:26.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and Marc Maron does not show up 18:26.100 --> 18:28.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% knowing as much as everybody else. 18:28.400 --> 18:29.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Or the person he interviews. 18:29.400 --> 18:31.033 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% He only knows as much as we know. 18:31.033 --> 18:32.466 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - [Ana] Right. 18:32.466 --> 18:33.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And that curiosity, which you said was the other 18:33.933 --> 18:35.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% essential part of being an interviewer is there 18:35.900 --> 18:38.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% mostly because he legitimately does not know. 18:38.066 --> 18:39.533 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 18:39.533 --> 18:40.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And he's there on a quest, which I think is great. 18:40.766 --> 18:41.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, it's funny, I try to figure it as 18:41.766 --> 18:42.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% from a middle ground with that 18:42.966 --> 18:45.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% 'cause the Marc Maron thing, he is, 18:45.333 --> 18:46.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I find it, I mean, it's endearing, right? 18:46.966 --> 18:48.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's what helps make his show is that he's like, 18:48.933 --> 18:51.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "Yep, I don't know, I don't know you very well." 18:51.000 --> 18:52.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Or "I only know what I know about you." 18:52.500 --> 18:54.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Which, by the way, is not the same as not preparing. 18:54.066 --> 18:55.266 align:left position:40%,start line:83% size:50% - Right. - Right. 18:55.266 --> 18:56.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - But I try to hit kind of a middle ground. 18:56.800 --> 18:58.400 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 18:58.400 --> 19:00.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - His is a little bit of a shtick, right? 19:00.133 --> 19:03.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, sure, everyone has-- - Everyone is a little-- 19:03.000 --> 19:04.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Speaking of preparation, do you prepare? 19:04.733 --> 19:06.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Are you a big preparer? 19:06.233 --> 19:08.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I always feel like I should. - I'm like I'm a Boy Scout. 19:08.000 --> 19:09.333 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I always read the book. 19:09.333 --> 19:13.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm always worried about not showing up prepared. 19:13.100 --> 19:14.300 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Well, the thing is, 19:14.300 --> 19:15.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the nice thing about being genuinely curious, 19:15.533 --> 19:16.766 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 19:16.766 --> 19:17.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Is it doesn't feel like preparation. 19:17.966 --> 19:19.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right, it doesn't feel like work. 19:19.366 --> 19:20.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - It doesn't feel like work. - Right, I hear you. 19:20.900 --> 19:22.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I mean, I'm having someone on because I read the book. 19:22.633 --> 19:24.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm having someone on because I want to talk 19:24.700 --> 19:25.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% about the book that they wrote. 19:25.633 --> 19:26.866 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - [Evan] Right. 19:29.600 --> 19:31.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - It doesn't feel like I'm being overly-prepared. 19:31.500 --> 19:33.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% If I feel like I need to be prepared, 19:33.400 --> 19:35.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that's probably a bad sign. 19:35.333 --> 19:37.366 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 19:37.366 --> 19:39.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I should already know what I wanna ask 19:39.633 --> 19:43.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because I should already be curious about this person. 19:43.133 --> 19:45.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% At the Times, because if we worked on a long lead time, 19:45.133 --> 19:46.933 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% and because there was a certain need 19:46.933 --> 19:49.433 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% to have a certain level of celebrity every once in awhile, 19:49.433 --> 19:50.933 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% sometimes that could feel like work. 19:50.933 --> 19:54.466 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% That could feel like, I'm having to cram for this. 19:54.466 --> 19:57.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% For the show, generally, I only have people on 19:57.233 --> 20:00.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who I'm already familiar with their stuff 20:00.833 --> 20:02.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because that's why I wanna have 'em on. 20:02.333 --> 20:04.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Right, and being able to make that choice ensures 20:04.333 --> 20:05.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that you're gonna pick the kinda people 20:05.566 --> 20:06.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who make it feel not like work for you. 20:06.900 --> 20:07.833 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 20:07.833 --> 20:08.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - So we have five minutes left. 20:08.766 --> 20:12.233 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% I wanna talk about recovery, 20:12.233 --> 20:14.833 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% but more broadly, I wanna talk about you, 20:14.833 --> 20:17.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and the degree to which you have made yourself 20:17.033 --> 20:18.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a character for all of us to see. 20:18.733 --> 20:19.966 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 20:19.966 --> 20:21.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Over time, you have talked openly 20:21.433 --> 20:23.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and written openly, and I think very movingly, 20:23.533 --> 20:25.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% about your struggles with addiction. 20:25.200 --> 20:26.033 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Mm-hmm. 20:27.200 --> 20:29.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - You have talked about a struggle 20:29.700 --> 20:30.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that I think a lot more people have 20:30.866 --> 20:32.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% than talk about it publicly, 20:32.133 --> 20:33.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and that's struggles with mental illness. 20:33.400 --> 20:34.933 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - [Ana] Mm-hmm. 20:34.933 --> 20:38.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - You've also talked about, late in life, embracing faith. 20:38.266 --> 20:39.666 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Mm-hmm. 20:39.666 --> 20:40.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And what's been interesting about the last, 20:40.966 --> 20:42.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I wanna go back to the first one and second, 20:42.233 --> 20:43.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but what's interesting about the last one, 20:43.766 --> 20:47.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I always find, is because you are politically progressive, 20:47.466 --> 20:51.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and you are a person who openly acknowledges her faith, 20:51.433 --> 20:53.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% people think somehow that's inconsistent. 20:53.466 --> 20:57.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% As if somehow being a person of faith disqualifies you 20:57.366 --> 21:00.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% from having views to the left of Reagan, right? 21:00.100 --> 21:02.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yes, people of faith often think that. 21:02.266 --> 21:03.200 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Other Christians-- 21:03.200 --> 21:04.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - But isn't that interesting 21:04.633 --> 21:06.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that somehow the assumption is God's a Republican. 21:06.233 --> 21:07.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% You can't possibly have faith. 21:07.866 --> 21:10.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Right, well, I think that's a relatively recent thing, 21:10.733 --> 21:12.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in terms of history. - Yeah, but it is a thing! 21:12.300 --> 21:13.500 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% - It is a thing. - It is! 21:13.500 --> 21:14.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - But in the history of Christianity, 21:14.700 --> 21:15.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% which goes back further than Reagan. 21:15.966 --> 21:18.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - [Evan] Right. (audience laughing) 21:18.133 --> 21:19.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - My belief is that, 21:20.933 --> 21:23.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm more of on the Jesus Freak side 21:23.333 --> 21:24.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of interpretation of Christianity, right? 21:24.966 --> 21:26.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% He was a cool, radical dude. 21:26.833 --> 21:29.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - So this is like Jesus Christ Superstar. 21:29.300 --> 21:30.566 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% - A little bit. - Yeah. 21:30.566 --> 21:33.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I mean, he was-- - Dancing hippies. 21:33.166 --> 21:34.333 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% - Kind of. - Yeah. 21:34.333 --> 21:35.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I mean, I feel like he had a message 21:35.566 --> 21:37.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of radical equality and radical grace 21:37.833 --> 21:41.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and of lifting up people who cannot lift up themselves, 21:41.966 --> 21:43.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of putting yourself in the servant's position 21:43.700 --> 21:45.233 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% all of the time. 21:45.233 --> 21:47.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I feel like contemporary conservative Christianity 21:47.566 --> 21:50.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% is not much of a servant's role. 21:50.900 --> 21:52.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It doesn't have a lot of-- - Right. 21:52.133 --> 21:53.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It's a lot of asking questions first 21:53.666 --> 21:55.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and then deciding whether or not you're gonna use. 21:55.133 --> 21:58.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - So has this changed your journalism or changed your work? 21:58.233 --> 22:00.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Because I realize that recovery, being in recovery, 22:00.666 --> 22:04.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it seems to me, must give you a window 22:04.100 --> 22:06.366 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% on those you talk to. 22:06.366 --> 22:10.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It creates in you, inherently I assume, empathy 22:10.633 --> 22:13.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% for the plight of other people. 22:13.166 --> 22:17.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It does, and I feel like it... (sighs) 22:19.266 --> 22:23.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% What I feel like my faith does for me as a journalist is, 22:23.100 --> 22:26.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it often commands me to put myself 22:26.633 --> 22:31.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in that servant's position even if I resist 22:32.766 --> 22:34.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% certain superficial things about the person 22:34.633 --> 22:36.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that I'm talking to or the person I'm curious about. 22:36.433 --> 22:38.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I need to assume that that person is, 22:40.366 --> 22:42.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% not deserving of grace, but that person has grace. 22:42.466 --> 22:44.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% That person can be redeemed, that that person-- 22:44.766 --> 22:46.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well, it helps you be a good listener 22:46.166 --> 22:47.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% even to people you don't agree with. 22:47.233 --> 22:48.766 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Right, exactly! 22:48.766 --> 22:50.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Right, and even to people you don't wanna hear from. 22:50.200 --> 22:51.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And that there's something bigger than them 22:51.500 --> 22:53.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that I need to pay attention to. 22:53.800 --> 22:55.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% There's something bigger than whatever 22:55.033 --> 22:57.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the thing is we're talking about. 22:57.066 --> 22:58.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That doesn't mean I don't disagree. 22:58.366 --> 22:59.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That doesn't mean I don't push back. 22:59.666 --> 23:01.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That doesn't mean that I can't think 23:01.433 --> 23:02.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that some of their policy positions 23:02.933 --> 23:05.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or the things that they say are really, really offensive. 23:05.900 --> 23:07.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% But it keeps me listening. 23:07.700 --> 23:10.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And it also allow you probably to view them 23:10.500 --> 23:12.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% through the lens of decency 23:12.000 --> 23:16.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because the indecency and the instability of the world 23:16.366 --> 23:18.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is itself a thing that we've been grappling with. 23:18.200 --> 23:19.700 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 23:19.700 --> 23:21.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And I wonder if it makes you more capable of being civil 23:21.766 --> 23:23.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to people you wouldn't otherwise be civil to. 23:23.733 --> 23:26.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I think if you, you've known me for a long time. 23:26.400 --> 23:29.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I think that one of the things that's changed about me, 23:30.866 --> 23:33.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% maybe, I've always been, I think, pretty decent, 23:33.866 --> 23:37.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but I haven't always been civil. (laughs) 23:38.233 --> 23:41.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And I think I do, I am better at assuming, 23:44.600 --> 23:46.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm better at not assuming bad motives. 23:46.733 --> 23:47.566 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 23:47.566 --> 23:49.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - I'm better at thinking 23:49.000 --> 23:51.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that this person has been injured in some way. 23:51.366 --> 23:52.866 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yep. 23:52.866 --> 23:53.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And, again, that doesn't make what they're saying OK. 23:53.700 --> 23:55.000 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yep. 23:55.000 --> 23:56.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It doesn't mean that I need to agree with them. 23:56.400 --> 23:57.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And it doesn't necessarily take the edge 23:57.766 --> 23:59.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% out of how you view the world. 23:59.400 --> 24:00.900 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 24:00.900 --> 24:02.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Because one of the things that is consistent, 24:02.433 --> 24:04.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% again, knowing you as long as I do, from then to now, 24:04.066 --> 24:07.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is that you have a very sharp edge that can be deployed 24:07.800 --> 24:09.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in service to the things you believe in 24:09.600 --> 24:10.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% when you choose to deploy it. 24:10.833 --> 24:12.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And that's not been dulled by any of this. 24:12.666 --> 24:13.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - No I don't think so. 24:13.900 --> 24:15.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It some ways, it has been sharpened 24:15.400 --> 24:16.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because when I feel like I finally land on a place 24:16.633 --> 24:20.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of what I feel is right, I'm pretty sure, 24:20.033 --> 24:22.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I mean, then it needs to be done. 24:22.400 --> 24:24.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - [Evan] You're there, right. 24:24.033 --> 24:26.933 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% - So that last show of the season with Christian Picciolini, 24:28.100 --> 24:30.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% he said something that I feel like is the theme 24:30.733 --> 24:34.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% of how my faith has changed me, which is that knowledge 24:34.100 --> 24:35.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that everyone's going through something. 24:35.866 --> 24:37.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Everyone has been through something 24:37.333 --> 24:38.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to get them to the place that they are. 24:38.866 --> 24:40.033 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yep. 24:40.033 --> 24:43.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And I probably don't know what it is, 24:43.066 --> 24:46.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and I can't know how much they've been hurt. 24:46.933 --> 24:49.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And it, again, doesn't make what they're saying right. 24:49.366 --> 24:50.866 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% It doesn't make it OK. 24:50.866 --> 24:53.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It doesn't mean they're not racist if they're racist. 24:53.566 --> 24:56.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But there's been an injury to that person. 24:56.033 --> 24:57.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Something preceded this. 24:57.166 --> 24:58.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Something preceded this. 24:58.666 --> 25:01.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I don't believe that people come into the world evil. 25:01.633 --> 25:04.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I don't believe people come into the world 25:04.066 --> 25:05.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% wanting harm for others. 25:05.400 --> 25:06.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - [Evan] It's learned behavior. 25:06.333 --> 25:07.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - I really, really believe that, 25:07.733 --> 25:10.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and it is also something my faith teaches me. 25:10.300 --> 25:12.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We're all fallen, but we fell from somewhere. 25:14.066 --> 25:17.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And I think it's given me a generosity of spirit 25:17.933 --> 25:21.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that I think I've always aspired to, 25:21.533 --> 25:24.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% but now I have kind of a way 25:24.200 --> 25:27.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of putting that generosity into action. 25:27.533 --> 25:29.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And that's what I mean by gift, by the way. 25:29.566 --> 25:32.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% When I say my presence is a gift, 25:32.333 --> 25:34.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I'm trying to put myself-- 25:34.633 --> 25:36.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - [Evan] Right. 25:36.066 --> 25:37.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - at the service of the person that I'm listening to. 25:37.866 --> 25:41.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Like, what can I do for this person? 25:41.033 --> 25:42.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Well, I'm gonna take it the other way and just say 25:42.866 --> 25:45.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that your presence here has been a gift to me. 25:45.866 --> 25:47.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% We are at the end. 25:47.400 --> 25:49.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm happy to see you in such a good place, 25:49.266 --> 25:51.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and I'm always happy for your success. 25:51.233 --> 25:52.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Ana Marie Cox, thank you very much. 25:52.600 --> 25:55.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience applauds) 25:56.800 --> 25:58.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:58.833 --> 26:02.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Visit our website at KLRU.org/Overheard 26:02.866 --> 26:05.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to find invitations to interviews, 26:05.400 --> 26:07.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Q & As with our audience and guests, 26:07.433 --> 26:10.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and an archive of past episodes. 26:10.333 --> 26:12.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - In the podcast, one of the most amazing things 26:12.400 --> 26:16.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% about it is, that not everyone I talk to is already a friend 26:16.266 --> 26:18.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but generally, by the time we're done, we are. 26:18.433 --> 26:19.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - [Evan] Friend-ish, right. 26:19.333 --> 26:20.266 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Friend-ish. 26:21.833 --> 26:25.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And I do feel like, again, the most memorable ones 26:25.600 --> 26:27.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% are the ones where it's uncomfortable for me 26:27.400 --> 26:30.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but also if the other person gives something, too. 26:30.966 --> 26:33.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 26:33.433 --> 26:36.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 26:36.333 --> 26:38.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a Texas Government Affairs consultancy, 26:38.900 --> 26:41.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and by Claire and Carl Stuart. 26:42.466 --> 26:45.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% (electronic musical notes)