1 00:00:01,466 --> 00:00:03,000 - [Announcer] Funding for Overhead with Evan Smith 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,900 is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 3 00:00:05,900 --> 00:00:08,433 a Texas Government Affairs Consultancy, 4 00:00:08,433 --> 00:00:11,000 and by Claire and Carl Stuart. 5 00:00:12,833 --> 00:00:13,966 - I'm Evan Smith. 6 00:00:13,966 --> 00:00:15,833 She's a veteran journalist, commentator, 7 00:00:15,833 --> 00:00:17,633 and social media phenom 8 00:00:17,633 --> 00:00:21,033 who hosts the Crooked Media Podcast With Friends Like These. 9 00:00:21,033 --> 00:00:23,766 She's Ana Marie Cox, this is Overheard. 10 00:00:23,766 --> 00:00:25,066 (electronic music) (applause) 11 00:00:25,066 --> 00:00:26,333 - [Evan Voiceover] Let's be honest. 12 00:00:26,333 --> 00:00:28,100 Is this about the ability to learn, 13 00:00:28,100 --> 00:00:29,666 or is this about the experience 14 00:00:29,666 --> 00:00:31,200 of not having been taught properly? 15 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,166 How have you avoided what has befallen 16 00:00:33,166 --> 00:00:34,900 other nations in Africa. 17 00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:36,366 - And you could say that he made his own bed, 18 00:00:36,366 --> 00:00:38,300 but you caused him to sleep in it. 19 00:00:38,300 --> 00:00:40,733 - [Evan Voiceover] You saw a problem and, over time, 20 00:00:40,733 --> 00:00:41,566 took it on. 21 00:00:41,566 --> 00:00:43,100 (audience laughter) 22 00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:44,366 - Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 23 00:00:44,366 --> 00:00:45,633 Are you gonna run for president? 24 00:00:45,633 --> 00:00:47,633 I think I just got an F from you actually. 25 00:00:47,633 --> 00:00:48,733 (audience laughter) 26 00:00:48,733 --> 00:00:50,966 (applause) 27 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:54,633 - [Evan] Ana, hi. 28 00:00:54,633 --> 00:00:55,866 - [Ana] Hello, Evan. 29 00:00:55,866 --> 00:00:56,966 - [Evan] Always better when I'm with you. 30 00:00:56,966 --> 00:00:58,166 - Aww, thank you! - Aww. 31 00:00:58,166 --> 00:00:59,000 - [Ana] I love being with you, too! 32 00:00:59,000 --> 00:00:59,966 - Good to see you. 33 00:00:59,966 --> 00:01:01,500 So I wanna ask you a question 34 00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:03,500 that I probably should have asked you 15 years ago. 35 00:01:03,500 --> 00:01:05,466 What's the secret to interviewing somebody? 36 00:01:05,466 --> 00:01:06,966 I probably could have used-- (Ana laughing) 37 00:01:06,966 --> 00:01:08,466 I probably could have used this advice a long time ago, 38 00:01:08,466 --> 00:01:12,166 but you've become incredibly good at it on your podcast 39 00:01:12,166 --> 00:01:13,933 and in the two years that you did the back page 40 00:01:13,933 --> 00:01:15,433 of the New York Times Sunday Magazine. 41 00:01:15,433 --> 00:01:16,733 I thought you had figured out 42 00:01:16,733 --> 00:01:18,100 the secret to doing this right, 43 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:20,100 so share the secret with us. 44 00:01:20,100 --> 00:01:21,533 - It's listening. 45 00:01:21,533 --> 00:01:22,633 - That's it? 46 00:01:22,633 --> 00:01:24,300 - I think so. 47 00:01:24,300 --> 00:01:26,866 That's what my 20 years in journalism has taught me. 48 00:01:26,866 --> 00:01:28,066 - Right. 49 00:01:28,066 --> 00:01:29,700 - If I had anything to add to that, 50 00:01:29,700 --> 00:01:31,566 it's something that kind of goes along with listening, 51 00:01:31,566 --> 00:01:33,033 and maybe it's more important, actually. 52 00:01:33,033 --> 00:01:35,466 Maybe this is the real secret, which is curiosity. 53 00:01:35,466 --> 00:01:38,666 To be genuinely curious about someone. 54 00:01:38,666 --> 00:01:40,566 - Regardless of the subject, regardless of the person, 55 00:01:40,566 --> 00:01:41,866 because not every interview, 56 00:01:41,866 --> 00:01:44,700 we can't all interview DJ Khaled every week. 57 00:01:44,700 --> 00:01:46,866 I mean, the fact is, there are individual people 58 00:01:46,866 --> 00:01:48,700 who probably, by virtue of their personality 59 00:01:48,700 --> 00:01:49,966 or celebrity or accomplishments, 60 00:01:49,966 --> 00:01:51,500 you think, "Oh, I'm psyched! 61 00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:52,766 "I get to interview that person!" 62 00:01:52,766 --> 00:01:54,700 I woke up today and thought-- (Ana laughs) 63 00:01:54,700 --> 00:01:57,000 "Ana! This is gonna be a good day!" 64 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,400 But some days you know it's more of a job. 65 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,766 - I've been blessed to be able to shape the job a little bit 66 00:02:04,766 --> 00:02:08,600 at the Times and with the podcast 67 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,900 that my bar is, generally, I have to be curious 68 00:02:11,900 --> 00:02:13,300 about something about this person. 69 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:14,400 - And you make the decision, generally speaking, 70 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:15,466 - Yeah. 71 00:02:15,466 --> 00:02:16,700 - About who you see. - Yeah. 72 00:02:16,700 --> 00:02:17,866 - You're not working for somebody else; 73 00:02:17,866 --> 00:02:18,700 you're working for you. 74 00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:19,533 - Finally, right! 75 00:02:19,533 --> 00:02:20,766 - Finally, right. 76 00:02:20,766 --> 00:02:22,466 - I've actually been working for myself 77 00:02:22,466 --> 00:02:23,800 for a long time I guess. 78 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,433 - But in this respect, you're setting the table 79 00:02:26,433 --> 00:02:30,466 every week or every interview in terms of who, 80 00:02:30,466 --> 00:02:32,000 you can say yes or no. 81 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:33,700 - Right, and also, I would point out 82 00:02:33,700 --> 00:02:36,933 that DJ Khaled was one of my most amazing interviews 83 00:02:36,933 --> 00:02:39,033 that I've ever had because he was so surprising. 84 00:02:39,033 --> 00:02:40,200 - I know how much you enjoyed that on, which is why-- 85 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:41,600 - And so genuine, 86 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,133 and also I was genuinely curious about him. 87 00:02:44,133 --> 00:02:47,433 I'm old and didn't know much about what the kids listen to, 88 00:02:47,433 --> 00:02:49,566 so I kind of went into that interview, 89 00:02:49,566 --> 00:02:52,633 knowing he was a DJ (laughs). 90 00:02:52,633 --> 00:02:54,933 It's in his name. (laughs) 91 00:02:54,933 --> 00:02:56,700 - Helpful branding, right. 92 00:02:56,700 --> 00:02:59,066 - Right, and knowing he was on social media 93 00:02:59,066 --> 00:03:00,433 but not knowing a whole lot about him, 94 00:03:00,433 --> 00:03:01,966 so I was genuinely curious. 95 00:03:01,966 --> 00:03:04,566 And what was amazing about that interview was 96 00:03:04,566 --> 00:03:06,400 he was also genuinely curious about me. 97 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,733 It was like this weird thing where he was like, 98 00:03:10,133 --> 00:03:11,300 why do I want to know this-- - I don't get that much, 99 00:03:11,300 --> 00:03:12,800 by the way. (audience laughts) 100 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,233 - Right, right, right, no, but I think it speaks to him 101 00:03:14,233 --> 00:03:15,533 as an interesting person. 102 00:03:15,533 --> 00:03:17,566 - Sure, but he's unusual in that respect. 103 00:03:17,566 --> 00:03:18,766 - Yes. 104 00:03:18,766 --> 00:03:20,000 - Because if someone has a record to promote 105 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:21,333 or a book to promote or a movie to promote, 106 00:03:21,333 --> 00:03:23,000 they're on that script, right? 107 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,333 - Right, but he was genuinely there for this interview, 108 00:03:25,333 --> 00:03:26,533 which I think just speaks, again, 109 00:03:26,533 --> 00:03:29,300 to his kind of unique star quality. 110 00:03:29,300 --> 00:03:31,900 - I love the fact that you wanted to interview him 111 00:03:31,900 --> 00:03:33,366 because, in some respects, 112 00:03:33,366 --> 00:03:36,966 the best job of the interviewer is to put himself or herself 113 00:03:36,966 --> 00:03:39,033 into the place of the member of the audience. 114 00:03:39,033 --> 00:03:39,866 - Right. 115 00:03:39,866 --> 00:03:41,100 - Right? 116 00:03:41,100 --> 00:03:42,700 You're there as a proxy for them. 117 00:03:42,700 --> 00:03:44,266 - That's another good thing to remember, 118 00:03:44,266 --> 00:03:45,766 but I will point out that DJ Khaled, 119 00:03:45,766 --> 00:03:47,466 one of the reasons he's a little bit of an exception, 120 00:03:47,466 --> 00:03:49,233 is because he was genuinely famous. 121 00:03:51,066 --> 00:03:53,600 Without doing the New York Times back page, 122 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:54,900 is gonna be fine. 123 00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:56,200 - He didn't need the New York Times, right, yeah. 124 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,500 - But for the most part, my editors there and I, 125 00:03:58,500 --> 00:04:03,133 and on the podcast, I steer away from the super famous 126 00:04:03,133 --> 00:04:06,266 because I'm not usually very curious about them. 127 00:04:06,266 --> 00:04:07,100 - Well, the fact is we know a lot about them 128 00:04:08,666 --> 00:04:09,600 because they're super famous, 129 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:10,833 or maybe they're super famous 130 00:04:10,833 --> 00:04:13,133 because we know a lot about them or something. 131 00:04:13,133 --> 00:04:15,366 - For whatever reason, I just don't have a lot of curiosity. 132 00:04:15,366 --> 00:04:16,500 I mean, there are some famous people 133 00:04:16,500 --> 00:04:18,000 whom I'm still pretty curious about. 134 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,766 I would probably never turn down an interview with Obama, 135 00:04:20,766 --> 00:04:22,000 for instance. - Yes. 136 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,466 (Ana and members of audience laughing) 137 00:04:25,466 --> 00:04:27,733 I can confirm, it was interesting, yes. 138 00:04:27,733 --> 00:04:30,566 - Yes, and also he plays his cards so close to the vest. 139 00:04:30,566 --> 00:04:32,233 - Right, if you think you're in control of an interview 140 00:04:32,233 --> 00:04:34,066 with Obama, you are nuts. 141 00:04:34,066 --> 00:04:35,533 - Right. (audience laughs) 142 00:04:35,533 --> 00:04:37,533 And also, there's always something to know about him. 143 00:04:37,533 --> 00:04:39,766 He has some much he hasn't said, right? 144 00:04:39,766 --> 00:04:40,933 - [Evan] Correct, correct. 145 00:04:40,933 --> 00:04:42,400 - That's what's fascinating about him. 146 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,133 But for the most part, the people I wanna talk to 147 00:04:44,133 --> 00:04:46,633 are people that have come across my radar 148 00:04:46,633 --> 00:04:49,000 for whatever reason that have, 149 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,666 a lot of them, what prompts my interest is, 150 00:04:51,666 --> 00:04:53,533 they've experienced a change in their lives, 151 00:04:53,533 --> 00:04:56,133 a transformation in their lives of some kind, 152 00:04:56,133 --> 00:04:58,533 a conversion, an arc, a story. 153 00:04:58,533 --> 00:05:01,133 And I wanna know how they got from there to here. 154 00:05:01,133 --> 00:05:02,700 - Right, process, not substance. 155 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:03,966 - Right. 156 00:05:03,966 --> 00:05:05,233 - Yeah, I actually think that's the-- 157 00:05:05,233 --> 00:05:06,233 - Well, that gets you the substance. 158 00:05:06,233 --> 00:05:07,233 - Well, of course it is. - Yeah. 159 00:05:07,233 --> 00:05:08,666 - Process is substance-- - Right. 160 00:05:08,666 --> 00:05:10,100 - for purposes of this discussion, but I love that 161 00:05:10,100 --> 00:05:11,333 because you're not simply looking at the thing 162 00:05:11,333 --> 00:05:12,566 that's right here and is obvious, 163 00:05:12,566 --> 00:05:14,433 but you're saying, "What's over here?" 164 00:05:14,433 --> 00:05:17,133 And, again, some people you interview 165 00:05:17,133 --> 00:05:19,900 are willing to play that game and some are not. 166 00:05:19,900 --> 00:05:21,133 Sometimes you're playing tennis, 167 00:05:21,133 --> 00:05:22,466 but sometimes you're playing handball. 168 00:05:22,466 --> 00:05:24,666 - Yes, and I can also tell you, probably, 169 00:05:24,666 --> 00:05:26,800 I could probably rattle off some of the people 170 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,333 that were like that, but I won't. 171 00:05:28,333 --> 00:05:30,900 - I'll give you one if you give me one. 172 00:05:30,900 --> 00:05:32,366 We've both been doing this a long time. 173 00:05:32,366 --> 00:05:34,200 You name your handball interview, I'll name mine. 174 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,800 - OK, just because I think she's gonna be fine, 175 00:05:38,933 --> 00:05:40,566 but it was really difficult to interview 176 00:05:40,566 --> 00:05:42,466 the head librarian of Congress 177 00:05:42,466 --> 00:05:43,933 who's this wonderful woman. 178 00:05:43,933 --> 00:05:45,633 - That was like the last person 179 00:05:45,633 --> 00:05:46,466 I thought you were gonna say. 180 00:05:46,466 --> 00:05:47,700 (audience laughs) 181 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:49,366 - But this is what was interesting about her is 182 00:05:49,366 --> 00:05:51,033 she's the first African-American, 183 00:05:52,233 --> 00:05:53,200 I think she might be the first woman 184 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:54,266 who's the librarian of Congress. 185 00:05:54,266 --> 00:05:55,633 - [Evan] Period? 186 00:05:55,633 --> 00:05:57,733 - Period, first African-American, period. 187 00:05:57,733 --> 00:05:59,233 And she sticks to my mind 188 00:05:59,233 --> 00:06:01,466 because she wanted to do so well in that interview, 189 00:06:01,466 --> 00:06:05,533 but she was just telling me about the Library of Congress. 190 00:06:05,533 --> 00:06:06,766 (laughing) 191 00:06:06,766 --> 00:06:08,533 - And you couldn't get her off of that, right? 192 00:06:08,533 --> 00:06:11,033 - Right, and I wanted to know her story, 193 00:06:11,033 --> 00:06:12,966 but she seemed so, she was like, 194 00:06:14,366 --> 00:06:16,633 and, I mean, I could name a famous person, too, 195 00:06:16,633 --> 00:06:17,833 but she sticks in my mind 196 00:06:17,833 --> 00:06:19,633 because we were both trying so hard. 197 00:06:19,633 --> 00:06:21,133 We were trying to make that interview work. 198 00:06:21,133 --> 00:06:23,433 And she, fortunately, was kind of interesting 199 00:06:23,433 --> 00:06:26,333 just because of who she was. 200 00:06:26,333 --> 00:06:29,433 - I love the fact that, that's the one you mentioned! 201 00:06:30,633 --> 00:06:32,166 'Cause there have to be celebrities who, 202 00:06:32,166 --> 00:06:33,966 it turned out, didn't give a crap 203 00:06:33,966 --> 00:06:34,900 about being interviewed. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 204 00:06:34,900 --> 00:06:36,400 Yeah, sure. - Right? 205 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:37,600 They just showed up, and they were like, "Yeah, whatever," 206 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,033 and they're looking at their watch. 207 00:06:39,033 --> 00:06:40,300 - She sticks in my mind 'cause it's one of the hardest 208 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:42,133 'cause there was no bad feelings whatsoever, 209 00:06:42,133 --> 00:06:43,266 and we were both trying so hard. 210 00:06:43,266 --> 00:06:44,666 If someone wants to play along, 211 00:06:44,666 --> 00:06:45,633 - Right. 212 00:06:45,633 --> 00:06:47,400 - It's hard to have it go badly, 213 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,733 so that's the one that sticks with me 214 00:06:49,733 --> 00:06:51,700 because I feel like I wanna fix that problem. 215 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:54,300 - But isn't it partly the case that some of these folks, 216 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:56,900 celebrities in big quotes 'cause now the definition 217 00:06:56,900 --> 00:06:59,200 of celebrity has morphed over time, right? 218 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:00,800 People who you think should be celebrities aren't, 219 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,900 and people who shouldn't be celebrities absolutely are. 220 00:07:03,900 --> 00:07:05,133 Part of the time it's them, 221 00:07:05,133 --> 00:07:06,333 and part of the time they've been trained. 222 00:07:06,333 --> 00:07:07,566 - [Ana] Right. 223 00:07:07,566 --> 00:07:08,900 - Right, it's not the personality 224 00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:10,533 is the resistant aspect to it. 225 00:07:10,533 --> 00:07:12,000 It's just that they've been told, "Don't do this. 226 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,466 "Stay on the leash." 227 00:07:13,466 --> 00:07:15,833 And I think our job is to get them to stray. 228 00:07:15,833 --> 00:07:17,433 Our job is to get them off the leash. 229 00:07:17,433 --> 00:07:19,133 - Right, and I guess, hmm. 230 00:07:19,133 --> 00:07:20,600 I'm trying to think of why. 231 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,333 I feel like I picked this woman out of obscurity 232 00:07:22,333 --> 00:07:24,333 to tell her, to say she's a bad interview. 233 00:07:24,333 --> 00:07:27,033 But, again, I'm thinking about because that's the one 234 00:07:27,033 --> 00:07:28,900 that I feel like I should have been able to do something. 235 00:07:28,900 --> 00:07:30,366 - Could have fixed it. - Could have fixed it. 236 00:07:30,366 --> 00:07:31,700 - Well, you know, we all wanna fix everything, right? 237 00:07:31,700 --> 00:07:32,966 That's it, that's it, human nature. 238 00:07:32,966 --> 00:07:34,233 - Yeah, but whereas with some of these, 239 00:07:34,233 --> 00:07:35,533 often I get to say, "Well, it was them." 240 00:07:35,533 --> 00:07:37,066 - Right. 241 00:07:37,066 --> 00:07:38,300 - It was the celebrity that didn't cooperate over there, 242 00:07:38,300 --> 00:07:40,100 over-trained or whatever. - Right. 243 00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:42,166 - I mean, name most of the celebrities I've interviewed, 244 00:07:42,166 --> 00:07:43,433 the reason DJ Khaled sticks out is 245 00:07:43,433 --> 00:07:45,000 because he was so genuinely there. 246 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,033 You know who else was great is Allison Janney. 247 00:07:48,033 --> 00:07:51,200 - You know, her personality seems to suggest 248 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:52,966 that she'd be a blast to talk to. 249 00:07:52,966 --> 00:07:54,333 - And Rashida Jones also. 250 00:07:54,333 --> 00:07:55,166 - Rashida Jones? 251 00:07:55,166 --> 00:07:56,333 - There were people-- 252 00:07:56,333 --> 00:07:57,100 - You talked to Rashida Jones about porn. 253 00:07:57,100 --> 00:07:58,033 - Yeah! 254 00:07:58,033 --> 00:07:59,566 - I remember that interview. 255 00:07:59,566 --> 00:08:01,066 - Yeah, and we actually had some stuff we couldn't use. 256 00:08:01,066 --> 00:08:03,066 - Well. (Ana and audience laughing) 257 00:08:03,066 --> 00:08:05,866 The second half of my sentence inevitably goes there, 258 00:08:05,866 --> 00:08:07,333 I mean, now, come on! 259 00:08:07,333 --> 00:08:08,900 - I don't think she would, it was on the record! 260 00:08:08,900 --> 00:08:10,733 It was just couldn't be published in the New York Times. 261 00:08:10,733 --> 00:08:12,266 - 'Cause the New York Times is still the New York Times. 262 00:08:12,266 --> 00:08:13,700 That's how that goes. - Right, exactly. 263 00:08:13,700 --> 00:08:15,533 - Do you have a white whale as an interviewer? 264 00:08:15,533 --> 00:08:18,533 Is there somebody you've not been able to catch up to yet? 265 00:08:18,533 --> 00:08:21,166 - Besides Obama, um, Stephen King. 266 00:08:22,733 --> 00:08:24,966 - He would be kind of weird and interesting, wouldn't he? 267 00:08:24,966 --> 00:08:26,400 - Yeah, well, he's in recovery, 268 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,466 which not a lot of people know, I guess. 269 00:08:28,466 --> 00:08:29,966 He's public about it, 270 00:08:29,966 --> 00:08:30,900 but it's just not part of the first thing you think of 271 00:08:30,900 --> 00:08:32,833 when you think of Stephen King. 272 00:08:32,833 --> 00:08:33,766 And I am also-- 273 00:08:33,766 --> 00:08:35,333 - As someone in recovery, 274 00:08:35,333 --> 00:08:37,766 would you want to talk to him necessarily about that? 275 00:08:37,766 --> 00:08:39,433 Or absolutely you would want to talk to him about that? 276 00:08:39,433 --> 00:08:40,766 - Oh, I definitely would come up. 277 00:08:40,766 --> 00:08:41,600 - Yeah. 278 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:42,433 - 'Cause I'm interested, 279 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,033 so being in recovery is like a lot of other 280 00:08:45,033 --> 00:08:46,933 kind of semi-marginal identities 281 00:08:46,933 --> 00:08:49,000 where you always have your antennae up. 282 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,500 Like you're from Texas, right? - Right, you're always-- 283 00:08:50,500 --> 00:08:52,166 - You're always, who's from Texas. 284 00:08:52,166 --> 00:08:53,666 - Right. 285 00:08:53,666 --> 00:08:55,366 - So it's always something that I'm paying attention to 286 00:08:55,366 --> 00:08:56,900 in his interviews and in his books. 287 00:08:56,900 --> 00:09:00,166 I'm a huge fan, just a huge fan of his writing as well, 288 00:09:00,166 --> 00:09:02,300 and so I'm always very curious about how he treats it. 289 00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:04,800 He's one of the few authors that I feel incorporates 290 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,966 some of the themes from recovery really smoothly. 291 00:09:07,966 --> 00:09:09,133 It's just like when it comes up, 292 00:09:09,133 --> 00:09:10,400 it's just a part of the book. 293 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:11,400 - Can we all see it? 294 00:09:13,233 --> 00:09:14,466 'Cause this is news to me. 295 00:09:14,466 --> 00:09:15,866 I'm a Stephen King reader and fan, 296 00:09:15,866 --> 00:09:18,133 and I don't know that my antennae was up. 297 00:09:18,133 --> 00:09:20,633 - Right, I'm not sure if you would see it as recovery, 298 00:09:20,633 --> 00:09:21,933 which is maybe part of the point, 299 00:09:21,933 --> 00:09:22,933 but for instance... 300 00:09:22,933 --> 00:09:24,666 - But it's thematic. 301 00:09:24,666 --> 00:09:26,600 - Yeah, but like The Shining, 302 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,833 which he wrote when he was still drinking and using, 303 00:09:29,833 --> 00:09:31,866 is about alcoholism. 304 00:09:31,866 --> 00:09:34,033 I mean, it is the trope of the novel. 305 00:09:34,033 --> 00:09:35,800 - I don't care what it's about, it's so great. 306 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:36,966 - Oh, it's so great! 307 00:09:36,966 --> 00:09:38,433 - Right, and it holds up. 308 00:09:38,433 --> 00:09:39,800 - Right, but the thing is, 309 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,100 it's about how this guy can't escape his demons. 310 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:42,933 - Correct. 311 00:09:42,933 --> 00:09:44,400 - Right, he goes, 312 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,766 and actually there's stuff in the big book of AA 313 00:09:46,766 --> 00:09:48,933 that talks about going to Alaska 314 00:09:48,933 --> 00:09:50,433 to try and hide from the bottle. 315 00:09:50,433 --> 00:09:53,600 And so an Eskimo turns up with some whiskey, 316 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,933 and that's like, I wonder sometimes if he almost, if he, 317 00:09:56,933 --> 00:09:58,433 well, he wasn't sober then, 318 00:09:58,433 --> 00:09:59,766 so he wouldn't have been able to get it from there. 319 00:09:59,766 --> 00:10:00,966 - But you can see. 320 00:10:00,966 --> 00:10:03,833 - But you can see this, and then I also, 321 00:10:03,833 --> 00:10:05,466 The Shining was one of the first books I read 322 00:10:05,466 --> 00:10:07,233 after I got sober, re-read it. 323 00:10:09,333 --> 00:10:10,966 It was still frightening in all the ways 324 00:10:10,966 --> 00:10:12,166 that you would think it would be, 325 00:10:12,166 --> 00:10:15,666 but I remember the scene where Jack walks in 326 00:10:15,666 --> 00:10:19,000 to the Overlooks Bar and it's all dusty, 327 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,400 and the chairs are up and the tarps over everything. 328 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:22,833 Then he walks up to the bar, 329 00:10:22,833 --> 00:10:27,366 and all of a sudden the bottles appear glittering behind, 330 00:10:27,366 --> 00:10:29,100 and it gives me chills even now. 331 00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:31,200 - Yeah, oh god, that whole bar thing. (dramatically exhales) 332 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,800 - But just the idea, like you've done everything you can 333 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,033 to get away from this demon. 334 00:10:36,033 --> 00:10:37,700 - [Evan] Can't, but you can't. 335 00:10:37,700 --> 00:10:39,233 - It's right there. - It's right there. 336 00:10:39,233 --> 00:10:40,933 I wanna come back to recovery and you 337 00:10:40,933 --> 00:10:43,666 and your story in a strange way to talk 338 00:10:43,666 --> 00:10:47,433 about how that has changed you professionally. 339 00:10:47,433 --> 00:10:49,000 But I wanna talk about the podcast 340 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,666 because talking about your awesome interview skills, 341 00:10:52,666 --> 00:10:53,833 back page of the New York Times, 342 00:10:53,833 --> 00:10:55,400 and now particularly the podcast. 343 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,733 With Friends Like These has just posted, as we sit here, 344 00:10:57,733 --> 00:11:00,266 the last episode of season one. 345 00:11:00,266 --> 00:11:01,600 There will be a season two. - Yes. 346 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,166 - This is part of an empire of podcasts, 347 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,566 the Crooked Media podcasts, Pod Save American, et cetera, 348 00:11:08,566 --> 00:11:11,466 these former Obama folks who have created, 349 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:13,800 I guess an empire, there's nothing else, 350 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:14,966 I don't know what else to say about them. 351 00:11:14,966 --> 00:11:16,033 - A fiefdom. - It's a fiefdom. 352 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,033 But you have been an essential element of this, 353 00:11:19,033 --> 00:11:23,166 and I wonder whether the form or the format 354 00:11:23,166 --> 00:11:25,300 feels to you like journalism. 355 00:11:25,300 --> 00:11:27,366 Does it feel to you like the work you were doing before? 356 00:11:27,366 --> 00:11:28,433 What's the same about it? 357 00:11:28,433 --> 00:11:29,800 What's different about it? 358 00:11:31,633 --> 00:11:34,300 - I think of journalism as being 359 00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:39,033 a thing you produce and not a job title. 360 00:11:39,033 --> 00:11:41,300 - Yep, that's right. 361 00:11:41,300 --> 00:11:42,966 - Are we producing journalism? 362 00:11:42,966 --> 00:11:44,500 I think so. - Right, yeah. 363 00:11:45,900 --> 00:11:48,133 It's the delivery mechanism that's the difference. 364 00:11:48,133 --> 00:11:49,100 - Right. 365 00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:50,600 - But it works, and the fact is, 366 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,600 it didn't exist before, when you started out. 367 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,266 That was the platform available to you. 368 00:11:55,266 --> 00:11:57,600 This platform now is available, along with many others. 369 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,466 And that's one of the nice things about the work that we do. 370 00:11:59,466 --> 00:12:01,033 There's many places for us to do it. 371 00:12:01,033 --> 00:12:03,933 - Right, I absolutely love podcasting. 372 00:12:03,933 --> 00:12:07,900 If I had known this was a thing you could do before... 373 00:12:07,900 --> 00:12:09,100 - [Evan] Right, DIY. 374 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:10,266 - Would have picked this, maybe. 375 00:12:10,266 --> 00:12:11,500 I mean, it still existed. 376 00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:12,866 I remember hearing the word podcast 377 00:12:12,866 --> 00:12:15,066 for the first time sometime in the early 2000s 378 00:12:15,066 --> 00:12:17,466 and thinking it was a stupid name. 379 00:12:17,466 --> 00:12:20,200 And I still kind of do 'cause it comes from iPod. 380 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,066 That's-- - That's the pod portion 381 00:12:22,066 --> 00:12:23,000 of podcast, yes. 382 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,466 - That's the pod portion of it. 383 00:12:24,466 --> 00:12:27,566 It was Apple trying to invent a thing, and at first it-- 384 00:12:27,566 --> 00:12:29,233 - At the same time, though, look what's happened. 385 00:12:29,233 --> 00:12:31,266 You've joined, as we said, a fiefdom, 386 00:12:31,266 --> 00:12:32,500 - Yeah. 387 00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:33,566 - Where they've put the word pod. 388 00:12:33,566 --> 00:12:34,800 - I know, isn't that crazy? 389 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,266 - Pod Save America, right? - Yeah. 390 00:12:36,266 --> 00:12:38,800 - I actually, you should do Pod Bless Texas. 391 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:39,800 (audience laughs) 392 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:40,733 Don't you think? 393 00:12:40,733 --> 00:12:41,666 - Pod Bless Texas? 394 00:12:41,666 --> 00:12:42,933 I would be, I would, yes! 395 00:12:42,933 --> 00:12:44,533 I mean, I like the whole, I mean, I-- 396 00:12:44,533 --> 00:12:46,533 - Just put Pod in front of everything, and it's better. 397 00:12:46,533 --> 00:12:47,800 It's like salt, right? 398 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,366 - Yeah, I love it, I think it's hilarious. 399 00:12:50,366 --> 00:12:52,000 I would be happy to be, 400 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,100 Podsy the Pixels is one of the ones we thought about, too, 401 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:55,066 like a video game themed podcast. 402 00:12:55,066 --> 00:12:56,333 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 403 00:12:56,333 --> 00:12:58,366 - And then if we wanted to do one about faith, 404 00:12:58,366 --> 00:13:01,566 it would just be like pod you, like pod, 405 00:13:01,566 --> 00:13:02,800 I don't know! 406 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:04,933 - It creates all kinds of possibilities, yeah. 407 00:13:06,466 --> 00:13:09,500 By necessity, by definition, if you do a podcast, 408 00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:11,700 and you are one of the voices on the podcast, 409 00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:14,466 aren't you a character in every podcast 410 00:13:14,466 --> 00:13:16,633 in a way that you aren't necessarily 411 00:13:16,633 --> 00:13:18,966 when you're doing traditional reporting 412 00:13:18,966 --> 00:13:20,633 or writing that's in print? 413 00:13:20,633 --> 00:13:25,533 I don't think of the authorial voice as such a feature 414 00:13:25,533 --> 00:13:27,600 on the print side of this work, 415 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,800 but there's no way to avoid it when you're right there. 416 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,266 - I think we're just more aware of it. 417 00:13:31,266 --> 00:13:32,733 - And I'm listening to you. 418 00:13:32,733 --> 00:13:34,733 - We're just more aware of it, it's always a part of it. 419 00:13:34,733 --> 00:13:36,433 You know this as well as I do. 420 00:13:36,433 --> 00:13:38,200 If you actually work in journalism, 421 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,066 the voice of an author you realize is a creation 422 00:13:41,066 --> 00:13:42,833 and a character, right? - Yeah. 423 00:13:42,833 --> 00:13:44,233 - I remember, I just saw Lawrence Wright 424 00:13:44,233 --> 00:13:46,200 as a picture of him up on your wall. 425 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,066 He's one of my favorite authors, and it's his voice! 426 00:13:48,066 --> 00:13:49,600 Which you may not think of as-- 427 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:54,333 - It's sober and steady and authoritative and credible, 428 00:13:54,333 --> 00:13:55,700 and he probably doesn't think, 429 00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:58,133 "I get up every day to tend to that brand," 430 00:13:58,133 --> 00:13:59,100 - [Ana] Right. 431 00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:00,666 - But it's there, it's organic. 432 00:14:00,666 --> 00:14:02,066 - Right, but the point of a lot of traditional journalism 433 00:14:02,066 --> 00:14:04,900 is to have that voice be invisible, but it's still there. 434 00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:06,466 And you can tell when it goes wrong. 435 00:14:06,466 --> 00:14:08,300 - Right, and for a long time, there was, 436 00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:12,233 in our profession, Ana, institutions told individuals, 437 00:14:12,233 --> 00:14:13,733 you can't have a voice. 438 00:14:13,733 --> 00:14:15,666 - What they meant was that you need a really specific voice 439 00:14:15,666 --> 00:14:16,866 that's almost invisible. 440 00:14:16,866 --> 00:14:19,133 - Well, or you have to somehow lean 441 00:14:19,133 --> 00:14:20,700 into the institutional voice. - Right. 442 00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:21,933 - I think of, this is my, 443 00:14:21,933 --> 00:14:23,466 when I talk about social media people, 444 00:14:23,466 --> 00:14:27,266 I say that, once upon a time, only institutions had brands. 445 00:14:27,266 --> 00:14:28,666 Individuals could not have brands 446 00:14:28,666 --> 00:14:29,933 distinct from the institution. 447 00:14:29,933 --> 00:14:31,533 You had to subordinate your individual brand 448 00:14:31,533 --> 00:14:32,800 to the institution brand. 449 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,766 Today, individual brands are the rocket boosters 450 00:14:34,766 --> 00:14:36,233 that power institutional brands. 451 00:14:36,233 --> 00:14:37,166 - Definitely. 452 00:14:37,166 --> 00:14:38,633 - Not only is it acceptable, 453 00:14:38,633 --> 00:14:40,133 it's a requirement that everybody who comes to work 454 00:14:40,133 --> 00:14:42,100 in an organization that produces content, 455 00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:43,900 you've got to have an individual brand. 456 00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:46,233 And that individual voice, then, becomes so important. 457 00:14:46,233 --> 00:14:48,066 And I come back to yours. 458 00:14:48,066 --> 00:14:50,066 I know what I think your voice is. 459 00:14:50,066 --> 00:14:52,200 What do you think your voice is? 460 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,766 Is it a deliberate decision on your part, 461 00:14:53,766 --> 00:14:56,600 to craft the personae that's on this podcast? 462 00:14:57,766 --> 00:15:01,100 - It's not as deliberate as, say, Wonkette was. 463 00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:02,366 Wonkette was a character. 464 00:15:02,366 --> 00:15:03,566 - Right, so for the benefit of people 465 00:15:03,566 --> 00:15:06,666 who are younger than-- - Right, yeah. 466 00:15:06,666 --> 00:15:07,700 - 14 or whatever who don't remember, 467 00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:09,166 (Ana laughing) 468 00:15:09,166 --> 00:15:12,033 Wonkette was, you were OG political blog. 469 00:15:12,033 --> 00:15:13,100 - [Ana] Right. 470 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:14,566 - You were, back in the day, 471 00:15:14,566 --> 00:15:16,833 before everybody got in this business where everybody 472 00:15:16,833 --> 00:15:18,300 realized they could just have their own thing, 473 00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:19,766 you had your own thing. 474 00:15:19,766 --> 00:15:21,333 - Right, and Wonkette was, I used to say it was, 475 00:15:21,333 --> 00:15:23,966 well, at the time, I actually said it was drunk me, 476 00:15:23,966 --> 00:15:27,366 which, mostly true because I was drunk a lot. 477 00:15:27,366 --> 00:15:28,900 - Hilarious! (both laugh) 478 00:15:28,900 --> 00:15:30,166 - Yeah, I know, I made so many jokes about drinking 479 00:15:30,166 --> 00:15:31,400 back when I was drinking. 480 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:32,333 I still make jokes about drinking, 481 00:15:32,333 --> 00:15:34,133 but they're just true now. 482 00:15:34,133 --> 00:15:37,800 - But it was a very insightful non-traditionally-- 483 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:38,833 - Right. 484 00:15:38,833 --> 00:15:40,066 - Crafted and created, - Right. 485 00:15:40,066 --> 00:15:42,300 - But very insightful blog on the culture 486 00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:43,800 of politics and Washington. 487 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:45,633 - And it was just kind of like foul-mouthed and irreverent, 488 00:15:45,633 --> 00:15:48,433 which is me, also, not drinking. 489 00:15:48,433 --> 00:15:49,966 I'm still that today. - Yeah. 490 00:15:51,133 --> 00:15:52,633 - We'll get back to the recovery part, 491 00:15:52,633 --> 00:15:56,433 but I think what's interesting about With Friend Like These 492 00:15:56,433 --> 00:16:00,400 is that I'm more genuinely me. 493 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,033 I don't need a character anymore. 494 00:16:02,033 --> 00:16:03,333 - [Evan] Right, the character is you. 495 00:16:03,333 --> 00:16:04,800 - The character is me. - Yep. 496 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,800 - And I feel like, I do feel like it's a conversation 497 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:09,966 and not an interview. - Yep. 498 00:16:09,966 --> 00:16:13,866 - And that my presence is a gift to... 499 00:16:13,866 --> 00:16:17,233 that sounds so crazy, but I don't mean like I'm a gift. 500 00:16:17,233 --> 00:16:20,966 I just mean, to reveal some of yourself is something 501 00:16:20,966 --> 00:16:23,133 that a person can offer an audience. 502 00:16:23,133 --> 00:16:24,300 - Well, you've hit on something 503 00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:26,100 that dovetails back to your saying 504 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:27,300 that listening is the most important element 505 00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:29,033 of being an interviewer. - Right. 506 00:16:29,033 --> 00:16:30,700 - The best interviews, I think, are conversations. 507 00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:31,933 They're not interrogations. - Right. 508 00:16:31,933 --> 00:16:33,933 - Right, they're not facilitated monologues. 509 00:16:33,933 --> 00:16:34,900 - Right. 510 00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:36,166 - They're conversations. 511 00:16:36,166 --> 00:16:37,466 - And also, I think that being present, 512 00:16:37,466 --> 00:16:39,300 being truly present for an interview, 513 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:42,266 the giving of yourself encourages the other person 514 00:16:42,266 --> 00:16:44,300 to give too, right? - Right, that's true. 515 00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:46,533 - To be vulnerable encourages vulnerability, 516 00:16:46,533 --> 00:16:49,433 and to be genuinely curious encourages vulnerability. 517 00:16:49,433 --> 00:16:51,766 But one of the ways that you show genuine curiosity is 518 00:16:51,766 --> 00:16:53,900 to lay your cards on the table, 519 00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:56,000 to be like, this is what I think I know. 520 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:56,966 - [Evan] Right. 521 00:16:56,966 --> 00:16:59,033 - Can you tell me more? - Yep. 522 00:16:59,033 --> 00:17:02,166 - And I think that that is, when that happens, 523 00:17:02,166 --> 00:17:05,366 I'm not thinking about being present as a character. 524 00:17:05,366 --> 00:17:06,700 I'm thinking just-- - Right. 525 00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:08,166 - What is this conversation doing right now? 526 00:17:08,166 --> 00:17:10,766 Oh, my god, I feel something that is different in me 527 00:17:10,766 --> 00:17:12,233 because of the things that I've heard. 528 00:17:12,233 --> 00:17:14,300 I feel like the best episodes of With Friends Like These 529 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:19,300 have been episodes where I have had to... 530 00:17:22,233 --> 00:17:24,866 The theme of the show is uncomfortable conversations. 531 00:17:24,866 --> 00:17:26,100 One of the compliments I get from listeners is 532 00:17:26,100 --> 00:17:28,000 that I don't often feel uncomfortable, 533 00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:30,733 it doesn't feel uncomfortable to them. 534 00:17:30,733 --> 00:17:31,666 - To them. 535 00:17:31,666 --> 00:17:34,266 - To them, and that's true. 536 00:17:34,266 --> 00:17:36,466 I have some comfort with discomfort, if that makes sense. 537 00:17:36,466 --> 00:17:38,733 - Well, also, it certainly seems like, in sometimes, 538 00:17:38,733 --> 00:17:40,033 it feels uncomfortable to you. 539 00:17:40,033 --> 00:17:41,533 - But that's when I know it's really good. 540 00:17:41,533 --> 00:17:42,466 - That's when it's working? 541 00:17:42,466 --> 00:17:43,700 - That's when it's working. 542 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:44,633 - So here's the comparison again. 543 00:17:44,633 --> 00:17:45,900 I'm gonna make a comparison, 544 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:46,833 and I'm gonna use Alec Baldwin again 545 00:17:46,833 --> 00:17:48,333 because I think Alec Baldwin, 546 00:17:48,333 --> 00:17:52,500 who has a longtime podcast that originates out of WNYC 547 00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:54,000 in New York called Here's the Thing. 548 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,033 And it's an interview program, 549 00:17:55,033 --> 00:17:56,300 and he's actually pretty good. 550 00:17:56,300 --> 00:17:57,133 - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. 551 00:17:57,133 --> 00:17:58,533 - As far as it goes, 552 00:17:58,533 --> 00:18:00,233 but he does not show vulnerability or discomfort. 553 00:18:00,233 --> 00:18:01,166 - Nooo! 554 00:18:01,166 --> 00:18:02,900 - He shows only certainty. 555 00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:04,400 - Yeah. 556 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,166 - He absolutely knows as much as the people he interviews, 557 00:18:06,166 --> 00:18:08,766 and that's part of his brand is that he knows everything. 558 00:18:08,766 --> 00:18:10,500 He is basically Jack Donaghy from, right? 559 00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:12,166 - Yeah, oh god, it's so hard to tell the difference, yeah. 560 00:18:12,166 --> 00:18:13,433 - Whereas Marc Maron-- - Right. 561 00:18:13,433 --> 00:18:15,433 - Who has been doing the podcast almost as long, 562 00:18:15,433 --> 00:18:16,700 is all vulnerability. 563 00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:18,166 - You know, all three of us are in recovery. 564 00:18:18,166 --> 00:18:19,100 - Well, see, there you go. 565 00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:20,333 (Ana and audience laughing) 566 00:18:20,333 --> 00:18:22,866 I didn't understand, there's the theme! 567 00:18:22,866 --> 00:18:24,500 But Marc Maron is all discomfort, 568 00:18:24,500 --> 00:18:26,100 and Marc Maron does not show up 569 00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:28,400 knowing as much as everybody else. 570 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:29,400 Or the person he interviews. 571 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,033 He only knows as much as we know. 572 00:18:31,033 --> 00:18:32,466 - [Ana] Right. 573 00:18:32,466 --> 00:18:33,933 - And that curiosity, which you said was the other 574 00:18:33,933 --> 00:18:35,900 essential part of being an interviewer is there 575 00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:38,066 mostly because he legitimately does not know. 576 00:18:38,066 --> 00:18:39,533 - Right. 577 00:18:39,533 --> 00:18:40,766 - And he's there on a quest, which I think is great. 578 00:18:40,766 --> 00:18:41,766 - Yeah, it's funny, I try to figure it as 579 00:18:41,766 --> 00:18:42,966 from a middle ground with that 580 00:18:42,966 --> 00:18:45,333 'cause the Marc Maron thing, he is, 581 00:18:45,333 --> 00:18:46,966 I find it, I mean, it's endearing, right? 582 00:18:46,966 --> 00:18:48,933 It's what helps make his show is that he's like, 583 00:18:48,933 --> 00:18:51,000 "Yep, I don't know, I don't know you very well." 584 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,500 Or "I only know what I know about you." 585 00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:54,066 - Which, by the way, is not the same as not preparing. 586 00:18:54,066 --> 00:18:55,266 - Right. - Right. 587 00:18:55,266 --> 00:18:56,800 - But I try to hit kind of a middle ground. 588 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,400 - Yeah. 589 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,133 - His is a little bit of a shtick, right? 590 00:19:00,133 --> 00:19:03,000 - Yeah, sure, everyone has-- - Everyone is a little-- 591 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:04,733 - Speaking of preparation, do you prepare? 592 00:19:04,733 --> 00:19:06,233 Are you a big preparer? 593 00:19:06,233 --> 00:19:08,000 - I always feel like I should. - I'm like I'm a Boy Scout. 594 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,333 I always read the book. 595 00:19:09,333 --> 00:19:13,100 I'm always worried about not showing up prepared. 596 00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:14,300 - Well, the thing is, 597 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:15,533 the nice thing about being genuinely curious, 598 00:19:15,533 --> 00:19:16,766 - Yeah. 599 00:19:16,766 --> 00:19:17,966 - Is it doesn't feel like preparation. 600 00:19:17,966 --> 00:19:19,366 - Right, it doesn't feel like work. 601 00:19:19,366 --> 00:19:20,900 - It doesn't feel like work. - Right, I hear you. 602 00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:22,633 - I mean, I'm having someone on because I read the book. 603 00:19:22,633 --> 00:19:24,700 I'm having someone on because I want to talk 604 00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:25,633 about the book that they wrote. 605 00:19:25,633 --> 00:19:26,866 - [Evan] Right. 606 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,500 - It doesn't feel like I'm being overly-prepared. 607 00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:33,400 If I feel like I need to be prepared, 608 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,333 that's probably a bad sign. 609 00:19:35,333 --> 00:19:37,366 - Yeah. 610 00:19:37,366 --> 00:19:39,633 - I should already know what I wanna ask 611 00:19:39,633 --> 00:19:43,133 because I should already be curious about this person. 612 00:19:43,133 --> 00:19:45,133 At the Times, because if we worked on a long lead time, 613 00:19:45,133 --> 00:19:46,933 and because there was a certain need 614 00:19:46,933 --> 00:19:49,433 to have a certain level of celebrity every once in awhile, 615 00:19:49,433 --> 00:19:50,933 sometimes that could feel like work. 616 00:19:50,933 --> 00:19:54,466 That could feel like, I'm having to cram for this. 617 00:19:54,466 --> 00:19:57,233 For the show, generally, I only have people on 618 00:19:57,233 --> 00:20:00,833 who I'm already familiar with their stuff 619 00:20:00,833 --> 00:20:02,333 because that's why I wanna have 'em on. 620 00:20:02,333 --> 00:20:04,333 - Right, and being able to make that choice ensures 621 00:20:04,333 --> 00:20:05,566 that you're gonna pick the kinda people 622 00:20:05,566 --> 00:20:06,900 who make it feel not like work for you. 623 00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:07,833 - Right. 624 00:20:07,833 --> 00:20:08,766 - So we have five minutes left. 625 00:20:08,766 --> 00:20:12,233 I wanna talk about recovery, 626 00:20:12,233 --> 00:20:14,833 but more broadly, I wanna talk about you, 627 00:20:14,833 --> 00:20:17,033 and the degree to which you have made yourself 628 00:20:17,033 --> 00:20:18,733 a character for all of us to see. 629 00:20:18,733 --> 00:20:19,966 - Right. 630 00:20:19,966 --> 00:20:21,433 - Over time, you have talked openly 631 00:20:21,433 --> 00:20:23,533 and written openly, and I think very movingly, 632 00:20:23,533 --> 00:20:25,200 about your struggles with addiction. 633 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,033 - Mm-hmm. 634 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,700 - You have talked about a struggle 635 00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:30,866 that I think a lot more people have 636 00:20:30,866 --> 00:20:32,133 than talk about it publicly, 637 00:20:32,133 --> 00:20:33,400 and that's struggles with mental illness. 638 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:34,933 - [Ana] Mm-hmm. 639 00:20:34,933 --> 00:20:38,266 - You've also talked about, late in life, embracing faith. 640 00:20:38,266 --> 00:20:39,666 - Mm-hmm. 641 00:20:39,666 --> 00:20:40,966 - And what's been interesting about the last, 642 00:20:40,966 --> 00:20:42,233 I wanna go back to the first one and second, 643 00:20:42,233 --> 00:20:43,766 but what's interesting about the last one, 644 00:20:43,766 --> 00:20:47,466 I always find, is because you are politically progressive, 645 00:20:47,466 --> 00:20:51,433 and you are a person who openly acknowledges her faith, 646 00:20:51,433 --> 00:20:53,466 people think somehow that's inconsistent. 647 00:20:53,466 --> 00:20:57,366 As if somehow being a person of faith disqualifies you 648 00:20:57,366 --> 00:21:00,100 from having views to the left of Reagan, right? 649 00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:02,266 - Yes, people of faith often think that. 650 00:21:02,266 --> 00:21:03,200 Other Christians-- 651 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:04,633 - But isn't that interesting 652 00:21:04,633 --> 00:21:06,233 that somehow the assumption is God's a Republican. 653 00:21:06,233 --> 00:21:07,866 You can't possibly have faith. 654 00:21:07,866 --> 00:21:10,733 - Right, well, I think that's a relatively recent thing, 655 00:21:10,733 --> 00:21:12,300 in terms of history. - Yeah, but it is a thing! 656 00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:13,500 - It is a thing. - It is! 657 00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:14,700 - But in the history of Christianity, 658 00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:15,966 which goes back further than Reagan. 659 00:21:15,966 --> 00:21:18,133 - [Evan] Right. (audience laughing) 660 00:21:18,133 --> 00:21:19,700 - My belief is that, 661 00:21:20,933 --> 00:21:23,333 I'm more of on the Jesus Freak side 662 00:21:23,333 --> 00:21:24,966 of interpretation of Christianity, right? 663 00:21:24,966 --> 00:21:26,833 He was a cool, radical dude. 664 00:21:26,833 --> 00:21:29,300 - So this is like Jesus Christ Superstar. 665 00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:30,566 - A little bit. - Yeah. 666 00:21:30,566 --> 00:21:33,166 - I mean, he was-- - Dancing hippies. 667 00:21:33,166 --> 00:21:34,333 - Kind of. - Yeah. 668 00:21:34,333 --> 00:21:35,566 - I mean, I feel like he had a message 669 00:21:35,566 --> 00:21:37,833 of radical equality and radical grace 670 00:21:37,833 --> 00:21:41,966 and of lifting up people who cannot lift up themselves, 671 00:21:41,966 --> 00:21:43,700 of putting yourself in the servant's position 672 00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:45,233 all of the time. 673 00:21:45,233 --> 00:21:47,566 I feel like contemporary conservative Christianity 674 00:21:47,566 --> 00:21:50,900 is not much of a servant's role. 675 00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:52,133 It doesn't have a lot of-- - Right. 676 00:21:52,133 --> 00:21:53,666 - It's a lot of asking questions first 677 00:21:53,666 --> 00:21:55,133 and then deciding whether or not you're gonna use. 678 00:21:55,133 --> 00:21:58,233 - So has this changed your journalism or changed your work? 679 00:21:58,233 --> 00:22:00,666 Because I realize that recovery, being in recovery, 680 00:22:00,666 --> 00:22:04,100 it seems to me, must give you a window 681 00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:06,366 on those you talk to. 682 00:22:06,366 --> 00:22:10,633 It creates in you, inherently I assume, empathy 683 00:22:10,633 --> 00:22:13,166 for the plight of other people. 684 00:22:13,166 --> 00:22:17,333 - It does, and I feel like it... (sighs) 685 00:22:19,266 --> 00:22:23,100 What I feel like my faith does for me as a journalist is, 686 00:22:23,100 --> 00:22:26,633 it often commands me to put myself 687 00:22:26,633 --> 00:22:31,633 in that servant's position even if I resist 688 00:22:32,766 --> 00:22:34,633 certain superficial things about the person 689 00:22:34,633 --> 00:22:36,433 that I'm talking to or the person I'm curious about. 690 00:22:36,433 --> 00:22:38,933 I need to assume that that person is, 691 00:22:40,366 --> 00:22:42,466 not deserving of grace, but that person has grace. 692 00:22:42,466 --> 00:22:44,766 That person can be redeemed, that that person-- 693 00:22:44,766 --> 00:22:46,166 - Well, it helps you be a good listener 694 00:22:46,166 --> 00:22:47,233 even to people you don't agree with. 695 00:22:47,233 --> 00:22:48,766 - Right, exactly! 696 00:22:48,766 --> 00:22:50,200 - Right, and even to people you don't wanna hear from. 697 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:51,500 - And that there's something bigger than them 698 00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:53,800 that I need to pay attention to. 699 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,033 There's something bigger than whatever 700 00:22:55,033 --> 00:22:57,066 the thing is we're talking about. 701 00:22:57,066 --> 00:22:58,366 That doesn't mean I don't disagree. 702 00:22:58,366 --> 00:22:59,666 That doesn't mean I don't push back. 703 00:22:59,666 --> 00:23:01,433 That doesn't mean that I can't think 704 00:23:01,433 --> 00:23:02,933 that some of their policy positions 705 00:23:02,933 --> 00:23:05,900 or the things that they say are really, really offensive. 706 00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:07,700 But it keeps me listening. 707 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:10,500 - And it also allow you probably to view them 708 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:12,000 through the lens of decency 709 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,366 because the indecency and the instability of the world 710 00:23:16,366 --> 00:23:18,200 is itself a thing that we've been grappling with. 711 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:19,700 - Right. 712 00:23:19,700 --> 00:23:21,766 - And I wonder if it makes you more capable of being civil 713 00:23:21,766 --> 00:23:23,733 to people you wouldn't otherwise be civil to. 714 00:23:23,733 --> 00:23:26,400 - I think if you, you've known me for a long time. 715 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,666 I think that one of the things that's changed about me, 716 00:23:30,866 --> 00:23:33,866 maybe, I've always been, I think, pretty decent, 717 00:23:33,866 --> 00:23:37,066 but I haven't always been civil. (laughs) 718 00:23:38,233 --> 00:23:41,233 And I think I do, I am better at assuming, 719 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,733 I'm better at not assuming bad motives. 720 00:23:46,733 --> 00:23:47,566 - Right. 721 00:23:47,566 --> 00:23:49,000 - I'm better at thinking 722 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,366 that this person has been injured in some way. 723 00:23:51,366 --> 00:23:52,866 - Yep. 724 00:23:52,866 --> 00:23:53,700 - And, again, that doesn't make what they're saying OK. 725 00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:55,000 - Yep. 726 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,400 - It doesn't mean that I need to agree with them. 727 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:57,766 - And it doesn't necessarily take the edge 728 00:23:57,766 --> 00:23:59,400 out of how you view the world. 729 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:00,900 - Right. 730 00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:02,433 - Because one of the things that is consistent, 731 00:24:02,433 --> 00:24:04,066 again, knowing you as long as I do, from then to now, 732 00:24:04,066 --> 00:24:07,800 is that you have a very sharp edge that can be deployed 733 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,600 in service to the things you believe in 734 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:10,833 when you choose to deploy it. 735 00:24:10,833 --> 00:24:12,666 And that's not been dulled by any of this. 736 00:24:12,666 --> 00:24:13,900 - No I don't think so. 737 00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:15,400 It some ways, it has been sharpened 738 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:16,633 because when I feel like I finally land on a place 739 00:24:16,633 --> 00:24:20,033 of what I feel is right, I'm pretty sure, 740 00:24:20,033 --> 00:24:22,400 I mean, then it needs to be done. 741 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,033 - [Evan] You're there, right. 742 00:24:24,033 --> 00:24:26,933 - So that last show of the season with Christian Picciolini, 743 00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:30,733 he said something that I feel like is the theme 744 00:24:30,733 --> 00:24:34,100 of how my faith has changed me, which is that knowledge 745 00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:35,866 that everyone's going through something. 746 00:24:35,866 --> 00:24:37,333 Everyone has been through something 747 00:24:37,333 --> 00:24:38,866 to get them to the place that they are. 748 00:24:38,866 --> 00:24:40,033 - Yep. 749 00:24:40,033 --> 00:24:43,066 - And I probably don't know what it is, 750 00:24:43,066 --> 00:24:46,933 and I can't know how much they've been hurt. 751 00:24:46,933 --> 00:24:49,366 And it, again, doesn't make what they're saying right. 752 00:24:49,366 --> 00:24:50,866 It doesn't make it OK. 753 00:24:50,866 --> 00:24:53,566 It doesn't mean they're not racist if they're racist. 754 00:24:53,566 --> 00:24:56,033 But there's been an injury to that person. 755 00:24:56,033 --> 00:24:57,166 - Something preceded this. 756 00:24:57,166 --> 00:24:58,666 - Something preceded this. 757 00:24:58,666 --> 00:25:01,633 I don't believe that people come into the world evil. 758 00:25:01,633 --> 00:25:04,066 I don't believe people come into the world 759 00:25:04,066 --> 00:25:05,400 wanting harm for others. 760 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:06,333 - [Evan] It's learned behavior. 761 00:25:06,333 --> 00:25:07,733 - I really, really believe that, 762 00:25:07,733 --> 00:25:10,300 and it is also something my faith teaches me. 763 00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:12,666 We're all fallen, but we fell from somewhere. 764 00:25:14,066 --> 00:25:17,933 And I think it's given me a generosity of spirit 765 00:25:17,933 --> 00:25:21,533 that I think I've always aspired to, 766 00:25:21,533 --> 00:25:24,200 but now I have kind of a way 767 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,533 of putting that generosity into action. 768 00:25:27,533 --> 00:25:29,566 And that's what I mean by gift, by the way. 769 00:25:29,566 --> 00:25:32,333 When I say my presence is a gift, 770 00:25:32,333 --> 00:25:34,633 I'm trying to put myself-- 771 00:25:34,633 --> 00:25:36,066 - [Evan] Right. 772 00:25:36,066 --> 00:25:37,866 - at the service of the person that I'm listening to. 773 00:25:37,866 --> 00:25:41,033 Like, what can I do for this person? 774 00:25:41,033 --> 00:25:42,866 - Well, I'm gonna take it the other way and just say 775 00:25:42,866 --> 00:25:45,866 that your presence here has been a gift to me. 776 00:25:45,866 --> 00:25:47,400 We are at the end. 777 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,266 I'm happy to see you in such a good place, 778 00:25:49,266 --> 00:25:51,233 and I'm always happy for your success. 779 00:25:51,233 --> 00:25:52,600 Ana Marie Cox, thank you very much. 780 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,600 (audience applauds) 781 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,833 We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 782 00:25:58,833 --> 00:26:02,866 Visit our website at KLRU.org/Overheard 783 00:26:02,866 --> 00:26:05,400 to find invitations to interviews, 784 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,433 Q & As with our audience and guests, 785 00:26:07,433 --> 00:26:10,333 and an archive of past episodes. 786 00:26:10,333 --> 00:26:12,400 - In the podcast, one of the most amazing things 787 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,266 about it is, that not everyone I talk to is already a friend 788 00:26:16,266 --> 00:26:18,433 but generally, by the time we're done, we are. 789 00:26:18,433 --> 00:26:19,333 - [Evan] Friend-ish, right. 790 00:26:19,333 --> 00:26:20,266 - Friend-ish. 791 00:26:21,833 --> 00:26:25,600 And I do feel like, again, the most memorable ones 792 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,400 are the ones where it's uncomfortable for me 793 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,966 but also if the other person gives something, too. 794 00:26:30,966 --> 00:26:33,433 - [Announcer] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 795 00:26:33,433 --> 00:26:36,333 is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 796 00:26:36,333 --> 00:26:38,900 a Texas Government Affairs consultancy, 797 00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:41,433 and by Claire and Carl Stuart. 798 00:26:42,466 --> 00:26:45,900 (electronic musical notes)