WEBVTT 00:00.200 --> 00:03.437 >> Funding for "Overheard" with Evan Smith is provided in part 00:03.437 --> 00:08.041 by MFI Foundation, improving the quality of life within our 00:08.041 --> 00:09.576 community. 00:09.576 --> 00:12.412 And from the Texas Board of Legal Specialization, 00:12.412 --> 00:15.048 board certified attorneys in your community. 00:15.048 --> 00:18.519 Experienced, respected, and tested. 00:18.519 --> 00:22.856 Also by Hillco Partners, a Texas Government Affairs consultancy. 00:22.856 --> 00:26.727 And by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation. 00:26.727 --> 00:28.762 And viewers like you. 00:28.762 --> 00:30.597 Thank you. 00:30.597 --> 00:31.598 >> I'm Evan Smith. 00:31.598 --> 00:34.835 He spent 32 years representing Massachusetts' 4th Congressional 00:34.835 --> 00:35.936 District in the U.S. 00:35.936 --> 00:38.038 House retiring in 2013. 00:38.038 --> 00:41.208 His just published memoir "Frank" is a "New York Times" 00:41.208 --> 00:42.209 bestseller. 00:42.209 --> 00:43.510 He's Barney Frank. 00:43.510 --> 00:45.512 This is "Overheard." 00:45.512 --> 00:49.483 >> Actually, there are not two sides to every issue. 00:49.483 --> 00:50.817 >> So I guess we can't fire him now. 00:50.817 --> 00:54.021 >> I guess we can't fire him now. 00:54.021 --> 00:55.656 The night that I win the Emmy. 00:55.656 --> 00:59.426 >> Being on the Supreme Court was an improbable dream. 00:59.426 --> 01:01.495 >> It's hard work and it's controversial. 01:01.495 --> 01:03.931 >> Without information there is no freedom and it's journalists 01:03.931 --> 01:05.799 who provide that information. 01:05.799 --> 01:07.601 >> Window rolls down and this guy says, hey, 01:07.601 --> 01:09.569 he goes until 11:00. 01:09.569 --> 01:10.470 [Laughter] 01:17.511 --> 01:18.845 >> Congressman Frank, nice to meet you. 01:18.845 --> 01:19.646 >> Thank you. 01:19.646 --> 01:21.748 >> Nice to see you and congratulations on the book. 01:21.748 --> 01:22.683 >> Apprciate it. Thanks. 01:22.683 --> 01:25.752 >> Could you have imagined all those years ago in Bayonne or in 01:25.752 --> 01:29.556 Boston as you were in school and getting your start in politics 01:29.556 --> 01:32.926 that being a member of Congress might make you more unpopular 01:32.926 --> 01:35.095 than being openly gay? 01:35.095 --> 01:36.330 Hasn't the world changed? 01:36.330 --> 01:37.164 [Laughter] 01:37.164 --> 01:37.998 >> Oh, absolutely. 01:37.998 --> 01:39.499 As I sat down to write the book I realized, 01:39.499 --> 01:45.138 as I said in my last years when people polled, 01:45.138 --> 01:48.942 I reassured my husband -- I did not do this polling myself -- 01:48.942 --> 01:52.946 but the poll results were that my marrying Jim, 01:52.946 --> 01:56.416 as a member of Congress -- still the only same-sex marriage from 01:56.416 --> 01:59.853 a member of Congress, received much more public approval than 01:59.853 --> 02:02.155 my chairmanship of the Financial Services Committee. 02:02.155 --> 02:03.757 [Laughter] 02:03.757 --> 02:04.725 >> Right, they would much rather, yeah. 02:04.725 --> 02:10.097 >> And people said, well, did you think, even in 2005 02:10.097 --> 02:11.932 when Massachusetts just same sex marriage -- 02:11.932 --> 02:13.600 >> Recently, relatively. 02:13.600 --> 02:16.670 >> Ten years ago I would have thought it would have been very 02:16.670 --> 02:18.305 controversial for me to get married while I was still in 02:18.305 --> 02:19.406 Congress. 02:19.406 --> 02:20.474 And here it turned out I was right. 02:20.474 --> 02:22.476 There was a great deal of controversy about my getting 02:22.476 --> 02:24.277 married. 02:24.277 --> 02:26.213 A lot of my colleagues were very angry that I didn't invite them. 02:26.213 --> 02:27.314 >> Invite them to the wedding, yeah. 02:27.314 --> 02:28.548 [Laughter] 02:28.548 --> 02:30.651 >> You know, you have to draw the line somewhere. 02:30.651 --> 02:32.853 >> And in the world of today or of two years ago when you got 02:32.853 --> 02:35.022 out of Congress, the fact is your spouse was accepted as a 02:35.022 --> 02:36.723 Congressional spouse no different from any other 02:36.723 --> 02:37.557 Congressional spouse. 02:37.557 --> 02:38.992 >> No, we made that rule. 02:38.992 --> 02:42.429 I treat -- you know, I read a couple of books through my 02:42.429 --> 02:44.464 career, which were manuals. 02:44.464 --> 02:47.801 And one was a biography of Adam Clayton Powell. 02:47.801 --> 02:51.571 When Adam Clayton Powell came to Congress from Harlem in 1943, 02:51.571 --> 02:54.107 he was only the third African-American in this century 02:54.107 --> 02:55.042 post Reconstruction. 02:55.042 --> 02:55.776 >> Right. 02:55.776 --> 02:58.445 >> The other two had been fairly docile people from Chicago. 02:58.445 --> 03:01.181 So when he got to Congress he was told as a black man that he 03:01.181 --> 03:05.819 could not use the House barber shop, the House swimming pool. 03:05.819 --> 03:08.221 The black maitre d' of the House restaurant told him he was not 03:08.221 --> 03:09.189 allowed to eat there. 03:09.189 --> 03:10.023 >> Right. 03:10.023 --> 03:11.124 >> And Powell said, the hell I'm not. 03:11.124 --> 03:12.292 And he did it. 03:12.292 --> 03:17.698 >> I came out voluntarily in 1987 and began dating. 03:17.698 --> 03:21.601 And I read Powell's stuff so I said here's our rule. 03:21.601 --> 03:24.571 We are not going to do anything just to make a point, 03:24.571 --> 03:27.607 but we're not going to not do anything because somebody else 03:27.607 --> 03:28.642 wants to make a point. 03:28.642 --> 03:30.577 So from the beginning I insist on that. 03:30.577 --> 03:32.446 And Jim's a natural. 03:32.446 --> 03:34.881 He's a guy that people like. 03:34.881 --> 03:39.252 So he became -- in fact, in some ways, again, more popular. 03:39.252 --> 03:42.589 He says at one point the senior Republican on the committee I 03:42.589 --> 03:47.360 was dealing with -- and I sometimes get a little cranky -- 03:47.360 --> 03:48.428 >> Really? 03:48.428 --> 03:50.297 Hadn't seen that. 03:50.297 --> 03:54.201 >> -- at the end of the day. 03:54.201 --> 03:56.536 He ran into the senior Republican on the committee I 03:56.536 --> 03:58.438 was chairman and he was told, oh, 03:58.438 --> 04:00.273 I figured you were in town today. 04:00.273 --> 04:01.675 And Jim said, well how did you know that? 04:01.675 --> 04:02.976 He said, well Barney was nice. 04:02.976 --> 04:04.177 >> He was in a good mood, right, exactly. 04:04.177 --> 04:05.645 How perfect. 04:05.645 --> 04:06.413 [Laughter] 04:06.413 --> 04:08.982 >> What changed in the last ten years, not just in Congress, 04:08.982 --> 04:10.417 but in this country? 04:10.417 --> 04:13.520 We're now at a place where acceptance of gays and lesbians 04:13.520 --> 04:16.056 has got to be at a high point, right? 04:16.056 --> 04:18.558 >> If you had told me even two years ago that when the 04:18.558 --> 04:22.295 conservative Republican governor in the conservative cultural 04:22.295 --> 04:23.864 state of Indiana -- 04:23.864 --> 04:24.564 >> Yeah. 04:24.564 --> 04:27.400 >> -- was going to get his head beat in -- 04:27.400 --> 04:28.068 >> Right. 04:28.068 --> 04:30.103 >> -- because he wanted to allow people to discriminate against 04:30.103 --> 04:33.740 us on religious basis, I would have been unbelieving. 04:33.740 --> 04:34.708 >> Yeah. 04:34.708 --> 04:37.444 >> Well, it's the end of a long process -- though I think it 04:37.444 --> 04:38.812 worked. 04:38.812 --> 04:40.747 There are very few things in American history that have 04:40.747 --> 04:44.184 changed so drastically with the begin point. 04:44.184 --> 04:45.318 Stonewall, 1969. 04:45.318 --> 04:46.553 >> Right. 04:46.553 --> 04:47.754 >> And what I learned then -- I filed the first 04:47.754 --> 04:51.291 gay rights bill in Massachusetts in 1972. 04:51.291 --> 04:52.659 By the way, I was still then closeted. 04:52.659 --> 04:54.895 I made a decision early on when I went in the public life -- 04:54.895 --> 04:55.829 >> Right. 04:55.829 --> 04:57.364 And you write about that quite extensively in here. 04:57.364 --> 04:58.598 >> I made two decisions. 04:58.598 --> 05:00.333 First of all, I would be a coward. 05:00.333 --> 05:02.569 I would not be honest about being gay. 05:02.569 --> 05:04.337 Secondly, I would not be a hypocrite. 05:04.337 --> 05:07.174 I would not withhold my support from efforts to treat gay people 05:07.174 --> 05:08.108 fairly. 05:08.108 --> 05:08.642 >> Right. 05:08.642 --> 05:10.811 >> I have only contempt for gay men. 05:10.811 --> 05:12.512 Nobody has had to come out. 05:12.512 --> 05:13.346 >> Right. 05:13.346 --> 05:15.148 >> But to be a gay person or a lesbian, 05:15.148 --> 05:16.283 except the lesbians didn't do that. 05:16.283 --> 05:17.250 It was only the gay guys. 05:17.250 --> 05:18.852 >> In fact, you seem more contemptuous -- I don't mean to 05:18.852 --> 05:19.619 digress. 05:19.619 --> 05:21.888 You seem more contemptuous in this book of hypocrisy than you 05:21.888 --> 05:23.823 do of just straight ahead homophobia. 05:23.823 --> 05:24.591 >> Oh, absolutely, yeah. 05:24.591 --> 05:26.660 Because it's an undermining of democracy. 05:26.660 --> 05:29.496 If you are making rules for other people that you then don't 05:29.496 --> 05:31.431 follow yourself you have undermined the fundamental core 05:31.431 --> 05:33.333 principle of democracy. 05:33.333 --> 05:35.835 That goes back to John Locke's Treatise on Civil Government, 05:35.835 --> 05:40.140 which was a manual for the founding fathers. 05:40.140 --> 05:42.909 What happened was I was late doing it. 05:42.909 --> 05:45.579 We told the world who we were. 05:45.579 --> 05:48.748 I think the reason we have made this progress was it's easy to 05:48.748 --> 05:53.386 be prejudice against a stereotype with no reality. 05:53.386 --> 05:56.723 And essentially what happened was over time we told people who 05:56.723 --> 05:57.591 we were. 05:57.591 --> 05:58.458 >> Right. 05:58.458 --> 06:01.161 >> And our reality ultimately undermined the prejudice. 06:01.161 --> 06:06.700 And you saw this, for example, in the Defense of Marriage Act. 06:06.700 --> 06:08.768 By the time that came along there were people who don't like 06:08.768 --> 06:11.871 gay people or lesbians, but in America it wasn't considered 06:11.871 --> 06:14.241 right to just come out and say I hate those people, 06:14.241 --> 06:15.842 I want them to be unhappy. 06:15.842 --> 06:16.843 >> Right. 06:16.843 --> 06:19.412 >> Originally there was support for that in America. 06:19.412 --> 06:21.748 The Puritan movement, which H.L. 06:21.748 --> 06:24.985 Mencken defined as the haunting fear that someone somewhere 06:24.985 --> 06:26.486 might be having a good time. 06:26.486 --> 06:28.221 [Laughter] 06:28.221 --> 06:29.522 >> That was Puritanism. 06:29.522 --> 06:32.792 And, but, what happened was they didn't want to come right out 06:32.792 --> 06:36.196 and say we don't like one of them so two of them is disgusting. 06:36.196 --> 06:38.598 Instead they said, if they are allowed to marry it will have 06:38.598 --> 06:40.066 negative social consequences. 06:40.066 --> 06:40.667 >> Right. 06:40.667 --> 06:42.869 >> And that was the beginning of our winning. 06:42.869 --> 06:46.172 Because once Massachusetts, thanks to a great Supreme Court 06:46.172 --> 06:49.843 decision in our state, allowed same-sex marriage and none of 06:49.843 --> 06:52.145 the negative consequences came forward. 06:52.145 --> 06:54.281 >> Right. The Apocalypse did not come. 06:54.281 --> 06:55.682 >> So that's basically what happened was they made all these 06:55.682 --> 06:58.018 accusations about us. 06:58.018 --> 06:59.586 We told people who we really were. 06:59.586 --> 07:02.856 And then every time we came forward with an issue, 07:02.856 --> 07:05.692 we allowed gay and lesbian people to serve openly in the 07:05.692 --> 07:07.193 military. 07:07.193 --> 07:09.029 Most people in the military have forgotten that. 07:09.029 --> 07:11.164 Go back and I wish one of the things people would do, 07:11.164 --> 07:13.967 when people make these predictions that there's going 07:13.967 --> 07:16.369 to be gloom and doom, hold them to them. 07:16.369 --> 07:17.270 Wait and see what happens -- 07:17.270 --> 07:17.937 >> Right. 07:17.937 --> 07:19.172 And remind them what they said. 07:19.172 --> 07:19.839 >> Exactly. 07:19.839 --> 07:21.241 >> Because you talk a lot about the repeal of 07:21.241 --> 07:22.342 Don't Ask Don't Tell. 07:22.342 --> 07:25.312 The Clinton years is essentially a study, 07:25.312 --> 07:27.247 and everybody working this out in realtime. 07:27.247 --> 07:28.248 >> Absolutely. 07:28.248 --> 07:30.016 >> You talk a lot about that in this book and the reality is 07:30.016 --> 07:33.019 that's barely 20 years ago that we're talking about and yet the 07:33.019 --> 07:35.355 world has completely changed to the point that we forgot there 07:35.355 --> 07:36.389 was a time. 07:36.389 --> 07:37.023 >> No question. 07:37.023 --> 07:40.293 Bill Clinton, to his credit, tried to get rid of the ban on 07:40.293 --> 07:42.295 gays serving in the military. 07:42.295 --> 07:42.996 >> Right. 07:42.996 --> 07:45.265 >> And -- 07:45.265 --> 07:46.700 >> The security clearance question. 07:46.700 --> 07:50.470 >> Yeah, well, Clinton tried to do that and he was foiled by a 07:50.470 --> 07:52.172 combination of Bob Dole and Sam Nunn. 07:52.172 --> 07:53.173 >> Sam Nunn, right, yeah. 07:53.173 --> 07:54.040 >> Politics at the time. 07:54.040 --> 07:55.842 But also, as I say in the book, part of the problem was this, 07:55.842 --> 07:58.578 and I've spent a lot of my time arguing the substance with my 07:58.578 --> 08:03.817 Conservative opponents, but arguing procedure with my 08:03.817 --> 08:05.085 Liberal allies. 08:05.085 --> 08:07.854 Because there has been this tendency for people on the left 08:07.854 --> 08:11.191 to engage in expressive politics. 08:11.191 --> 08:13.426 Let's demonstrate, let's march, let's rally. 08:13.426 --> 08:14.160 >> Right. 08:14.160 --> 08:15.161 >> None of which does you any good. 08:15.161 --> 08:15.695 >> Right. 08:15.695 --> 08:17.163 >> It's mostly talking to each other. 08:17.163 --> 08:19.065 As I said, one of my frustrations has been over the 08:19.065 --> 08:21.868 time when the right gets mad they vote. 08:21.868 --> 08:23.503 When the left gets mad they march. 08:23.503 --> 08:24.604 Voting beats marching. 08:24.604 --> 08:25.972 >> Voting ends up being -- 08:25.972 --> 08:29.142 >> That's why the Tea Party, to my regret, 08:29.142 --> 08:31.811 had much more impact on public policy than the Occupy movement. 08:31.811 --> 08:34.114 >> Well, the old cliche elections have consequences -- 08:34.114 --> 08:35.048 >> That's absolutely right. 08:35.048 --> 08:36.583 >> It's a cliche because it's true. 08:36.583 --> 08:37.183 >> That's a good point. 08:37.183 --> 08:39.552 Most cliches are true. 08:39.552 --> 08:41.254 The problem with the cliche is not that it's not true, 08:41.254 --> 08:41.921 it's boring. 08:41.921 --> 08:42.555 >> It's boring. 08:42.555 --> 08:44.657 >> You have to be true to become a cliche. 08:44.657 --> 08:48.161 >> So I'm remembering an account you give in the book of a very 08:48.161 --> 08:54.200 large march or rally in 1993 when somebody got up and said, 08:54.200 --> 08:56.669 made a comment about wanting to have sex with Hillary Clinton. 08:56.669 --> 08:57.637 It was actually a -- 08:57.637 --> 08:59.406 >> It was a woman, of course. 08:59.406 --> 09:00.840 It was the LGBT. 09:00.840 --> 09:02.609 >> I would like to have sex with Hillary Clinton, and, in fact, 09:02.609 --> 09:04.577 it was said a little bit differently than I just said it. 09:04.577 --> 09:06.446 Couldn't say it on public television. 09:06.446 --> 09:08.381 >> Wouldn't it be great that there's now a first lady I'd 09:08.381 --> 09:09.549 like to bleep. 09:09.549 --> 09:10.650 >> To blank, right. 09:10.650 --> 09:12.485 And your point was that kind of conduct -- 09:12.485 --> 09:14.087 >> Because you want to bleep her, not blank her. 09:14.087 --> 09:14.921 >> Bleep her. 09:14.921 --> 09:16.022 Bleep her. 09:16.022 --> 09:16.790 [Laughter] 09:16.790 --> 09:20.660 >> That's sort of a statement where you tell the story of a 09:20.660 --> 09:22.695 bunch of soldiers who were emulating kicks like the 09:22.695 --> 09:24.264 Rockettes, your point was -- 09:24.264 --> 09:26.433 >> Yeah, these are gay men who have been kicked out of the 09:26.433 --> 09:29.135 military whom were trying to say, look, this is ridiculous. 09:29.135 --> 09:30.336 They will be soldiers like anybody else. 09:30.336 --> 09:34.074 And some organizer -- and the focus is let's play to each 09:34.074 --> 09:37.010 other's emotions. 09:37.010 --> 09:40.013 Let's forget that we're trying to persuade others. 09:40.013 --> 09:44.384 So he had them lined up ready to do a kick routine like the 09:44.384 --> 09:45.452 Rockettes. 09:45.452 --> 09:48.021 And I said no and people got very angry at me. 09:48.021 --> 09:51.157 >> But your point was use the time you have in the public eye 09:51.157 --> 09:54.427 to be successful at politics, not at theater. 09:54.427 --> 09:54.961 >> Yeah. 09:54.961 --> 09:56.963 And some of my friends say, well, 09:56.963 --> 09:58.565 we got to be like the African-American movement. 09:58.565 --> 10:00.467 And they say that and they're right. 10:00.467 --> 10:01.534 We should be. 10:01.534 --> 10:02.569 They misunderstand it. 10:02.569 --> 10:04.204 Martin Luther King was a very clever, 10:04.204 --> 10:05.672 thoughtful strategist as well as a -- 10:05.672 --> 10:06.739 >> A tactician. 10:06.739 --> 10:07.574 >> -- great moral leader. 10:07.574 --> 10:08.408 >> Right, yeah. 10:08.408 --> 10:12.078 >> And I contrast the march on Washington in 1964 with its 10:12.078 --> 10:13.379 tight discipline. 10:13.379 --> 10:16.182 It's saying we're going to send this message to white America. 10:16.182 --> 10:19.018 With the self-indulgence of our march in '93, 10:19.018 --> 10:22.856 the best example is one of the great moral heroes of my time or 10:22.856 --> 10:24.424 of any time, John Lewis. 10:24.424 --> 10:25.758 A man who literally risked his life -- 10:25.758 --> 10:26.292 >> Yeah. 10:26.292 --> 10:28.828 >> -- for this principle. 10:28.828 --> 10:31.264 John said, he says in his own book, 10:31.264 --> 10:32.599 I have talked to him about it. 10:32.599 --> 10:35.235 He was asked to speak at the march on Washington, 10:35.235 --> 10:37.637 this representative of young people. 10:37.637 --> 10:40.907 He had to submit something like five drafts of his speech to 10:40.907 --> 10:43.409 A. Phillip Randolph's agent, Bayard Rustin. 10:43.409 --> 10:46.312 And each time he was told, John, that's too radical. 10:46.312 --> 10:48.248 At one point he said in his speech, 10:48.248 --> 10:50.116 he remembered him telling this, the people demand. 10:50.116 --> 10:51.017 They said no, no. 10:51.017 --> 10:53.686 That's going to make people nervous, so make your pick. 10:53.686 --> 10:57.690 So the contrast between the two is what I was hoping 10:57.690 --> 11:01.094 to get our my eyes and the LGBT movement -- 11:01.094 --> 11:03.096 >> Well, there's no question that one of the interesting 11:03.096 --> 11:05.231 takeaways of this book is that you are as critical of your own 11:05.231 --> 11:07.300 side, in some respects, as you are of the other side. 11:07.300 --> 11:07.934 >> Procedurally. 11:07.934 --> 11:08.968 >> Procedurally. 11:08.968 --> 11:10.470 >> And the other point I want to make is this. 11:10.470 --> 11:14.841 One of the things I get really bothered by are my colleagues 11:14.841 --> 11:17.677 who beat their chest about how brave they are by standing up to 11:17.677 --> 11:19.179 their opponents. 11:19.179 --> 11:20.413 I tell the right wing this. 11:20.413 --> 11:21.681 I tell the right wing that. 11:21.681 --> 11:23.850 Well, the fact is that, you know, 11:23.850 --> 11:25.852 if you're barely picking on people who are never going to be 11:25.852 --> 11:28.922 with you, that's very useful because it just builds up your 11:28.922 --> 11:30.323 campaign contributions. 11:30.323 --> 11:30.924 >> Right. 11:30.924 --> 11:33.259 >> But Ted Kennedy and Jesse Helms probably raised 11:33.259 --> 11:35.328 $100 million each for the other. 11:35.328 --> 11:37.864 One would criticize and then the other one would send out that 11:37.864 --> 11:38.965 criticism and vice versa. 11:38.965 --> 11:39.899 >> Right. 11:39.899 --> 11:41.935 >> The hardest thing in politics is to stand up to your friends 11:41.935 --> 11:44.871 and tell your friends that you disagree with them. 11:44.871 --> 11:45.605 >> Right. 11:45.605 --> 11:47.774 >> In my case, as I said, it was almost always about -- it was 11:47.774 --> 11:50.276 always about procedure and not substance, 11:50.276 --> 11:51.644 but there's not enough of that. 11:51.644 --> 11:54.881 There's not enough telling the people close to you when you 11:54.881 --> 11:55.615 think they're wrong. 11:55.615 --> 11:56.149 >> Right. 11:56.149 --> 11:57.383 So we have openly gay athletes now. 11:57.383 --> 11:58.117 >> Yes. 11:58.117 --> 12:01.321 >> We have openly gay people in the service, as you say. 12:01.321 --> 12:04.958 We have, I believe, seven openly gay or lesbian or bisexual -- 12:04.958 --> 12:06.326 >> One senator and six representatives. 12:06.326 --> 12:07.093 >> -- members of Congress. 12:07.093 --> 12:08.595 We have an openly bisexual governor of Oregon. 12:08.595 --> 12:09.395 >> Yep. 12:09.395 --> 12:13.967 >> And yet have the politics of this country adequately changed 12:13.967 --> 12:15.101 to your satisfaction? 12:15.101 --> 12:16.202 I'm guessing the answer is no. 12:16.202 --> 12:17.237 >> No, pretty much they have. 12:17.237 --> 12:18.705 But here's the deal. 12:18.705 --> 12:21.541 Every one of the people you named is a Democrat. 12:21.541 --> 12:25.278 >> Right, there are no Republicans serving in Congress 12:25.278 --> 12:26.079 who are openly gay. 12:26.079 --> 12:27.947 >> You go back to 1976, which I remember, 12:27.947 --> 12:32.452 and Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford were both beginning to be 12:32.452 --> 12:37.323 supportive of equal treatment for lesbian and gay people. 12:37.323 --> 12:43.162 And then -- and since then there have been three trend lines in 12:43.162 --> 12:44.731 American politics about LGBT issues. 12:44.731 --> 12:47.467 The country as a whole has been getting better at an 12:47.467 --> 12:49.135 increasingly good rate. 12:49.135 --> 12:51.738 The Democrats have been getting better at an even faster rate 12:51.738 --> 12:54.107 and the Republicans had been getting worse. 12:54.107 --> 12:55.675 Until recently they were actually getting worse. 12:55.675 --> 12:59.879 Now the Republicans are in a situation which troubles them. 12:59.879 --> 13:01.848 It used to be the one that had the Democrats in. 13:01.848 --> 13:05.018 That is, there was a split on LGBT issues between their 13:05.018 --> 13:07.520 political base, the people who vote in primaries, 13:07.520 --> 13:08.955 and the general electorate. 13:08.955 --> 13:10.290 >> Right. 13:10.290 --> 13:12.558 >> And so they are moderating the ferocity of their attacks on 13:12.558 --> 13:13.259 us -- 13:13.259 --> 13:13.993 >> Right. 13:13.993 --> 13:16.696 >> But you still predict now, not too much, 13:16.696 --> 13:19.565 the Republican platform will be very critical of LGBT movement 13:19.565 --> 13:23.336 next time and there'll be no Republican presidential 13:23.336 --> 13:24.937 candidate will be supportive. 13:24.937 --> 13:26.673 So the country, as a whole, is moving. 13:26.673 --> 13:28.508 What's changed in the last month was -- 13:28.508 --> 13:29.642 >> Yeah. 13:29.642 --> 13:31.477 >> -- Indiana and then Arkansas. 13:31.477 --> 13:36.282 Because a critical block has moved into this fight, 13:36.282 --> 13:38.918 and it's the business community. 13:38.918 --> 13:39.519 It's very good to win an issue -- 13:39.519 --> 13:40.586 >> Right. 13:40.586 --> 13:42.321 >> -- because you have morality on your side. 13:42.321 --> 13:44.891 But it helps in America if the profit motive weighs in. 13:44.891 --> 13:46.192 [Laughter] 13:46.192 --> 13:48.361 >> And essentially what you now have is the business community 13:48.361 --> 13:51.330 saying to the bigots, will you please knock it off, 13:51.330 --> 13:52.899 you are interfering with our ability -- 13:52.899 --> 13:54.033 >> To make a buck. 13:54.033 --> 13:55.468 >> -- to ruin the economy and make money. 13:55.468 --> 13:56.703 And that, I believe -- 13:56.703 --> 13:58.738 >> At the end of the day that's going to trump everything else. 13:58.738 --> 14:00.606 >> Well, you know, Adlai Stevenson. 14:00.606 --> 14:04.110 I recorded Adlai Stevenson in a remark that showed his humor and 14:04.110 --> 14:07.013 his political misjudgment sometimes. 14:07.013 --> 14:08.981 He gave a great speech and a woman said, oh, governor. 14:08.981 --> 14:11.284 Your speech was marvelous. 14:11.284 --> 14:13.686 You'll have the votes of all the thinking people. 14:13.686 --> 14:15.421 He said I know, madam, but I need a majority. 14:15.421 --> 14:16.122 >> I need to win, right. 14:16.122 --> 14:17.090 Yeah. 14:17.090 --> 14:17.690 [Laughter] 14:17.690 --> 14:19.692 >> And so that didn't help him win. 14:19.692 --> 14:22.095 But I'm glad to have the support of all the morally driven 14:22.095 --> 14:23.363 people. 14:23.363 --> 14:24.630 But, yeah, to win. 14:24.630 --> 14:26.833 >> Right. 14:26.833 --> 14:27.667 >> And so you have the American businessmen and it's interesting 14:27.667 --> 14:28.935 what they're saying, and they're saying this, 14:28.935 --> 14:31.370 do not give us the right to discriminate. 14:31.370 --> 14:33.206 You are giving me something I didn't ask for. 14:33.206 --> 14:37.343 Because if a business has the legal and moral obligation to 14:37.343 --> 14:39.445 serve everybody, no controversy. 14:39.445 --> 14:41.714 But if you say to them, okay, you can pick and choose, 14:41.714 --> 14:43.583 then once they start picking and choosing, 14:43.583 --> 14:45.118 somebody is going to be mad at them. 14:45.118 --> 14:48.254 Either they'll be too kind to gay people or not kind enough. 14:48.254 --> 14:49.388 >> In either case they'll be boycotted. 14:49.388 --> 14:54.627 >> Yeah, so the good of the properly understood and there's 14:54.627 --> 14:56.095 a great legal distinction. 14:56.095 --> 14:57.330 I don't like metaphors, generally. 14:57.330 --> 14:59.699 But between the shield and the sword, 14:59.699 --> 15:02.902 a shield is a legal concept that protects you from other people 15:02.902 --> 15:04.337 intruding on your life. 15:04.337 --> 15:05.104 >> Right. 15:05.104 --> 15:08.107 >> So that I can wear a yarmulke if I want to. 15:08.107 --> 15:10.777 The Native Americans can smoke peyote. 15:10.777 --> 15:13.279 Although as far as I'm concerned anybody who wants to smoke 15:13.279 --> 15:14.580 peyote ought to smoke it. 15:14.580 --> 15:15.448 [Laughter] 15:15.448 --> 15:16.916 >> But we said you cannot interfere with my religious 15:16.916 --> 15:17.817 freedom. 15:17.817 --> 15:20.620 The sword is when I take that concept and I interfere with 15:20.620 --> 15:21.554 you. 15:21.554 --> 15:22.255 >> Right. 15:22.255 --> 15:24.390 >> And what happened was we originally saw the Religious 15:24.390 --> 15:27.160 Freedom acts as a shield against you being told you couldn't 15:27.160 --> 15:30.129 practice your religion, even if it didn't bother anybody else. 15:30.129 --> 15:32.799 And then it was converted into an active way for you to hurt 15:32.799 --> 15:33.900 other people. 15:33.900 --> 15:35.635 And it's going to get retracted back to that shield, 15:35.635 --> 15:36.235 and that's fine. 15:36.235 --> 15:37.036 >> Yeah. 15:37.036 --> 15:38.738 On gay marriage, which is another half, 15:38.738 --> 15:42.408 or the other half of this issue we were visiting before we came 15:42.408 --> 15:45.111 out on stage today that in some respect there may be some 15:45.111 --> 15:47.647 Republicans who are secretly hoping that the Supreme Court 15:47.647 --> 15:50.316 weighs in in favor of gay marriage so that sharp object is 15:50.316 --> 15:51.384 taken off the table. 15:51.384 --> 15:52.852 >> I mean, it's an absolute analogy in the business 15:52.852 --> 15:53.786 community. 15:53.786 --> 15:56.088 Right now a Republican has the choice of being for or against 15:56.088 --> 15:57.423 same-sex marriage. 15:57.423 --> 16:01.227 And if he or she is against it then you have problems in 16:01.227 --> 16:01.994 November. 16:01.994 --> 16:04.263 But if you're for it then you have problems with your base. 16:04.263 --> 16:08.968 If the Supreme Court says is it -- and I correct myself. 16:08.968 --> 16:11.037 If the Supreme Court says that it's a constitutional right 16:11.037 --> 16:13.439 maybe then they can keep it out of the platform because they can 16:13.439 --> 16:15.308 say, well, that's what the Supreme Court said. 16:15.308 --> 16:18.845 >> Well, abortion is legal in this country last time I looked 16:18.845 --> 16:20.012 thanks to the Supreme Court. 16:20.012 --> 16:22.048 And yet I think there's probably anti-abortion language in the 16:22.048 --> 16:23.216 Republican Party platform too. 16:23.216 --> 16:23.983 >> Well, that's true. 16:23.983 --> 16:25.117 That's a fair point and, in fact, 16:25.117 --> 16:29.956 people should understand abortion is now legal by about 16:29.956 --> 16:32.658 four and three quarters to four and a quarter of the Supreme 16:32.658 --> 16:33.559 Court. 16:33.559 --> 16:34.794 I mean, there were four who were for it, 16:34.794 --> 16:35.862 four who were against it. 16:35.862 --> 16:37.663 And Justice Kennedy is finding a lot of ways to go for 16:37.663 --> 16:39.398 restrictions. 16:39.398 --> 16:43.002 Sandra Day O'Connor, who resigned from the Supreme Court, 16:43.002 --> 16:45.771 timing it so that George W. Bush could replace her 16:45.771 --> 16:49.342 now appears to have resigner's remorse because she's upset -- 16:49.342 --> 16:49.976 >> Right. 16:49.976 --> 16:51.744 >> -- that some of the decisions she made, 16:51.744 --> 16:54.513 both in campaign finance and affirmative action, 16:54.513 --> 16:56.415 but also on abortion are being overturned. 16:56.415 --> 16:58.517 But she should have thought of that when she let him appoint 16:58.517 --> 17:00.119 these guys. 17:00.119 --> 17:00.987 >> Come back to what I said earlier, 17:00.987 --> 17:01.988 elections have consequences. 17:01.988 --> 17:03.022 >> Absolutely right. 17:03.022 --> 17:06.726 And of 2016, and I say this to, you know, all the people, 17:06.726 --> 17:09.629 there's no difference. 17:09.629 --> 17:12.398 2016 is going to decide whether or not the federal government 17:12.398 --> 17:13.266 does anything about climate change. 17:13.266 --> 17:13.933 >> Yeah. 17:13.933 --> 17:16.402 >> It will decide whether or not we preserve financial reform, 17:16.402 --> 17:17.703 which obviously I'm invested in. 17:17.703 --> 17:19.338 >> You have a certain amount of named -- you have naming rights 17:19.338 --> 17:20.306 on that, right. 17:20.306 --> 17:22.375 >> If the Republicans win, they will repeal it. 17:22.375 --> 17:23.309 They all voted against it. 17:23.309 --> 17:26.946 And abortion will turn around. 17:26.946 --> 17:29.749 On the other hand, I believe if the Democrats win and the 17:29.749 --> 17:32.051 president gets to appoint somebody, 17:32.051 --> 17:34.620 her appointee will be someone who will -- 17:34.620 --> 17:36.088 [Laughter] 17:36.088 --> 17:39.358 >> You mean Elizabeth Warren? 17:39.358 --> 17:40.026 [Laughter] 17:40.026 --> 17:42.395 >> No, people have asked me. 17:42.395 --> 17:44.664 I support Elizabeth Warren in her -- 17:44.664 --> 17:46.432 >> Senate race. 17:46.432 --> 17:49.735 >> No, and I also support her in 2016, 17:49.735 --> 17:52.038 namely her very sensible declaration that she is not 17:52.038 --> 17:53.839 running for president. 17:53.839 --> 17:55.408 She is an enormous force for good. 17:55.408 --> 18:00.212 And the day she began to hint at running for president the media 18:00.212 --> 18:02.949 would then start picking apart everything she did and she would 18:02.949 --> 18:05.184 lose a lot of that credibility. 18:05.184 --> 18:07.019 And I know some of my friends on the left think, 18:07.019 --> 18:10.990 well why don't we have this really nice brawl for president? 18:10.990 --> 18:14.427 And my answer is, well, were they out of the country during 18:14.427 --> 18:17.530 2012 when the Republicans did themselves a lot of damage by 18:17.530 --> 18:18.864 throwing pies at each other? 18:18.864 --> 18:19.832 >> But of course you know, Congressman, 18:19.832 --> 18:22.134 that the opposite argument is being made by some Democrats. 18:22.134 --> 18:25.504 That if Secretary Clinton gets a glide path to the nomination, 18:25.504 --> 18:28.774 nominal opposition at best, by the time she gets into the 18:28.774 --> 18:30.776 general election she'll somehow be -- 18:30.776 --> 18:32.545 this is what they say -- out of practice. 18:32.545 --> 18:33.446 >> Yeah. 18:33.446 --> 18:35.982 >> You know, that she's somehow going to be worse for not having 18:35.982 --> 18:37.183 had a primary fight. 18:37.183 --> 18:38.684 >> That's a very dumb argument. 18:38.684 --> 18:39.218 I got to say. 18:39.218 --> 18:40.653 [Laughter] 18:40.653 --> 18:42.989 >> I am distancing myself from dumb arguments. 18:42.989 --> 18:45.524 >> First of all, you know, historically the notion that 18:45.524 --> 18:48.327 people have had an easy path to the nomination lose the 18:48.327 --> 18:51.764 nomination, lose the election, simply isn't empirically true. 18:51.764 --> 18:53.499 Has anybody checked and said, well, you know, 18:53.499 --> 18:55.534 this one had to fight for it, that one had to fight for it? 18:55.534 --> 19:00.473 Somebody it didn't help was Mitt Romney the last time. 19:00.473 --> 19:02.642 George W. Bush had a fairly easy path -- 19:02.642 --> 19:04.910 >> No, he had John McCain beat him in New Hampshire, right? 19:04.910 --> 19:05.845 I mean -- 19:05.845 --> 19:08.881 >> Yeah, but it was over fairly quickly. 19:08.881 --> 19:10.750 But the other point is this. 19:10.750 --> 19:12.952 I don't mean you, but there was a certain presumption for people 19:12.952 --> 19:14.253 who have never run for political office -- 19:14.253 --> 19:15.354 >> Right. 19:15.354 --> 19:17.690 >> -- telling a woman who twice worked with her husband to run 19:17.690 --> 19:20.393 for president, twice was elected to the United States Senate in 19:20.393 --> 19:23.996 New York, and then ran a very tough campaign for president 19:23.996 --> 19:26.198 that she doesn't know how to campaign or that she's going to 19:26.198 --> 19:27.066 forget it. 19:27.066 --> 19:30.236 Well this is not something you forget easily. 19:30.236 --> 19:31.971 No, I don't think they know more than she. 19:31.971 --> 19:34.607 And the other point is this: Yes, it would be nice if you 19:34.607 --> 19:36.442 had a debate purely on the merits -- 19:36.442 --> 19:37.143 >> Right. 19:37.143 --> 19:38.711 >> -- that did not get angry. 19:38.711 --> 19:40.746 Not in this country, not with this media. 19:40.746 --> 19:43.249 There is no way that you would have a primary without people 19:43.249 --> 19:44.283 getting negative. 19:44.283 --> 19:45.918 You can't control the people on your own side. 19:45.918 --> 19:46.585 >> Right. 19:46.585 --> 19:48.354 >> The media likes to make things angry. 19:48.354 --> 19:50.289 >> Well, we're fight promoters, not journalists. 19:50.289 --> 19:51.457 >> That's exactly right. 19:51.457 --> 19:52.458 >> I fully acknowledge that, yeah. 19:52.458 --> 19:55.494 >> And the fact also is that in the Democratic side this time 19:55.494 --> 19:57.463 there was a fairly broad consensus. 19:57.463 --> 20:01.634 Now there was some question on the foreign policy area. 20:01.634 --> 20:03.536 >> Well, in fact, you're a Liberal and unabashedly a 20:03.536 --> 20:04.570 Liberal. 20:04.570 --> 20:06.405 There are people who think that she's not liberal enough. 20:06.405 --> 20:07.473 So people on your side -- 20:07.473 --> 20:09.008 >> But, no, here's the deal. 20:09.008 --> 20:10.443 >> Financial reform. 20:10.443 --> 20:11.343 Too close to Wall Street. 20:11.343 --> 20:12.578 >> Yeah. 20:12.578 --> 20:15.681 She lives physically too close to Wall Street. 20:15.681 --> 20:17.216 From that standpoint -- 20:17.216 --> 20:18.551 >> This is a Mamaroneck problem? 20:18.551 --> 20:19.351 What is that? 20:19.351 --> 20:20.920 >> Well, she's a New York State senator and very few people 20:20.920 --> 20:23.956 totally go to war with their home state entity, 20:23.956 --> 20:26.459 but the point is that when Barack Obama signed a bill that 20:26.459 --> 20:30.296 included a weakening amendment on financial reform, 20:30.296 --> 20:32.965 Hillary Clinton Tweeted that we should not, in any way, 20:32.965 --> 20:35.468 do that again and we should not erode it. 20:35.468 --> 20:39.171 The fact is that they say that but it's based on nothing. 20:39.171 --> 20:42.441 And it's true that she took contributions from the big 20:42.441 --> 20:43.576 financial people. 20:43.576 --> 20:46.112 By the way, so did Barack Obama in 2008. 20:46.112 --> 20:46.979 >> He did. 20:46.979 --> 20:49.415 >> Now by 2012 they weren't giving it -- and they would give 20:49.415 --> 20:50.649 to me too. 20:50.649 --> 20:52.451 I was chairman of committee, they gritted their teeth and 20:52.451 --> 20:53.519 they hated it. 20:53.519 --> 20:55.387 I had one guy, I don't want to embarrass him, 20:55.387 --> 20:57.823 but he's the head of mutual fund in Boston. 20:57.823 --> 21:00.226 So when they were trying to knock me off in 2010, 21:00.226 --> 21:03.195 they were mad over the financial reform bill. 21:03.195 --> 21:04.230 He gave me $10,000. 21:04.230 --> 21:06.499 Then I saw that he gave my opponent $10,000. 21:06.499 --> 21:07.833 So I said to him, well, you know, 21:07.833 --> 21:10.769 you're head of a mutual fund, you're a financial expert. 21:10.769 --> 21:12.938 I'm going to be your financial adviser. 21:12.938 --> 21:14.840 Instead of giving me $10,000 and him $10,000, 21:14.840 --> 21:16.776 don't give any of us anything. 21:16.776 --> 21:17.610 >> Either one. 21:17.610 --> 21:20.513 >> You'll have the same effect and save $20,000. 21:20.513 --> 21:21.714 [Laughter] 21:21.714 --> 21:25.384 >> But I defy anyone to show me any issue on which Hillary 21:25.384 --> 21:26.719 Clinton was weak. 21:26.719 --> 21:29.321 It is true she supported a bankruptcy bill. 21:29.321 --> 21:30.122 >> Right. 21:30.122 --> 21:32.091 >> I voted against it, so did a lot of other Democrats. 21:32.091 --> 21:34.560 And, by the way, the main advocates of the bankruptcy 21:34.560 --> 21:36.428 bill, people forget this. 21:36.428 --> 21:40.866 J.P. Morgan Chase and Goldman Sachs didn't care about that. 21:40.866 --> 21:43.402 The bankruptcy bill was lobbied through by the community bankers 21:43.402 --> 21:46.539 and the credit unions, which is why it was so hard to defeat 21:46.539 --> 21:48.073 because they have a lot of clout. 21:48.073 --> 21:52.411 But if you look at the issues, well let me just quote Paul 21:52.411 --> 21:55.981 Krugman, who was the best liberal -- 21:55.981 --> 21:57.483 >> No one's idea of a conservative. 21:57.483 --> 21:59.618 >> And a great commentator. 21:59.618 --> 22:03.389 Go back and read his columns in 2008 and he documented that she 22:03.389 --> 22:04.256 was the Barack Obama's left -- 22:04.256 --> 22:05.090 >> Left. 22:05.090 --> 22:06.025 >> -- on domestic policy. 22:06.025 --> 22:07.526 I do have some questions about her on foreign policy. 22:07.526 --> 22:08.260 >> Right. 22:08.260 --> 22:09.161 >> Also President Obama. 22:09.161 --> 22:10.596 I think the time has come. 22:10.596 --> 22:13.399 I like the president's initial notion to get out of Iraq and 22:13.399 --> 22:14.500 Afghanistan. 22:14.500 --> 22:16.635 He's getting pressure to go back in. 22:16.635 --> 22:18.137 There's nothing we can do there. 22:18.137 --> 22:19.805 The notion that we can, by military force, 22:19.805 --> 22:21.440 make coherent society -- 22:21.440 --> 22:22.141 >> Yeah. 22:22.141 --> 22:24.143 >> -- for the people who are determined to hate each other. 22:24.143 --> 22:26.011 >> And you think her position on those issues is different than 22:26.011 --> 22:27.012 his? 22:27.012 --> 22:29.081 >> No, it's the same as his and I want them both to pull back. 22:29.081 --> 22:29.882 >> And that's your concern. 22:29.882 --> 22:33.419 Wasn't she also late to the party on gay marriage? 22:33.419 --> 22:34.653 >> In a way, Obama was. 22:34.653 --> 22:36.755 >> Yeah, he's not running again, last I looked. 22:36.755 --> 22:37.823 He's not running. 22:37.823 --> 22:40.593 >> No, but he's the one that they sort of hold up. 22:40.593 --> 22:42.528 She came to same-sex marriage -- no, 22:42.528 --> 22:45.831 actually she was before him as a New York senator. 22:45.831 --> 22:49.835 In fact, she came to same-sex marriage before her husband. 22:49.835 --> 22:50.736 >> Right. 22:50.736 --> 22:52.471 >> And, by the way, on same-sex marriage, 22:52.471 --> 22:54.773 she voted against -- and here's the deal. 22:54.773 --> 22:56.408 When it came to voting on same-sex marriage, 22:56.408 --> 23:00.946 she was not in the senate when the vote came on the Defense of 23:00.946 --> 23:01.914 Marriage Act. 23:01.914 --> 23:04.917 But after Massachusetts had a constitutional amendment to 23:04.917 --> 23:08.754 allow marriage, George W. Bush with Karl Rove's urging, 23:08.754 --> 23:11.490 trying to get Congress to adopt an amendment to the 23:11.490 --> 23:14.660 U.S. Constitution that would not only have banned gay marriage 23:14.660 --> 23:17.896 going forward, but would have retroactively abolished the 23:17.896 --> 23:19.832 marriages that had happened in Massachusetts, 23:19.832 --> 23:21.233 because you can do a Constitutional amendment. 23:21.233 --> 23:22.501 And she voted against that. 23:22.501 --> 23:23.302 >> She was opposed to that. 23:23.302 --> 23:25.437 >> A majority of the Senate, a majority of the House voted for 23:25.437 --> 23:26.639 it but they needed two-thirds. 23:26.639 --> 23:28.807 And so she consistently, when it became an issue, 23:28.807 --> 23:31.610 has voted the critical one, to allow it. 23:31.610 --> 23:33.178 Because it goes back to what I said before. 23:33.178 --> 23:35.781 I knew that once we got same-sex marriage anywhere, 23:35.781 --> 23:38.350 established a beachhead, we were going to win that argument 23:38.350 --> 23:40.252 because we had the reality done. 23:40.252 --> 23:42.855 But she was a consistent supporter to protect our right 23:42.855 --> 23:43.956 to do that. 23:43.956 --> 23:45.024 >> All right, so we have two minutes left. 23:45.024 --> 23:46.592 So she's the nominee. 23:46.592 --> 23:47.660 You're comfortable with that. 23:47.660 --> 23:49.762 Who is likely to be the Republican nominee and who would 23:49.762 --> 23:52.798 you like to see your party run against? 23:52.798 --> 23:53.899 >> Oh, Ted Cruz. 23:53.899 --> 23:54.733 [Laughter] 23:54.733 --> 23:56.335 >> No question about that? 23:56.335 --> 23:58.404 [Applause] 23:58.404 --> 24:00.339 >> I don't think you took half a second to answer that. 24:00.339 --> 24:03.876 >> No, I mean, I think I'm a pretty virtuous guy but I 24:03.876 --> 24:07.513 probably have not lived a good enough life for nature to award 24:07.513 --> 24:09.548 me, or God or whatever, with Ted Cruz. 24:09.548 --> 24:10.382 >> With Ted Cruz. 24:10.382 --> 24:13.552 Who do you think will be the nominee? 24:13.552 --> 24:15.421 >> Well, I worry about Scott Walker, you know, 24:15.421 --> 24:17.289 the "New York Times." And I was a little worried about the 24:17.289 --> 24:19.224 trivialization of journalism. 24:19.224 --> 24:21.460 The "New York Times" had a front page story about Scott Walker's 24:21.460 --> 24:24.663 being allergic to dogs and would that be an issue. 24:24.663 --> 24:27.132 And I said, no, why don't you write an article about the fact 24:27.132 --> 24:28.734 that he's allergic to labor unions -- 24:28.734 --> 24:29.601 >> Unions, right. 24:29.601 --> 24:31.003 >> -- and what they mean for working people. 24:31.003 --> 24:32.771 >> So Walker could be dangerous. 24:32.771 --> 24:35.240 He doesn't have the negatives, I think, that Jeb Bush has. 24:35.240 --> 24:37.443 >> He's also run successfully in a blue state and survived a 24:37.443 --> 24:39.011 recall -- 24:39.011 --> 24:42.481 >> Right, although he won that blue state twice in 24:42.481 --> 24:43.282 non-presidential years -- 24:43.282 --> 24:43.982 >> He did. 24:43.982 --> 24:45.384 >> -- which were very good Republican years. 24:45.384 --> 24:48.120 But I'm hoping is, frankly one of the problems I write about 24:48.120 --> 24:50.389 this in the book is that we've had is with white working-class 24:50.389 --> 24:52.324 men who were falling away from the Democrats, 24:52.324 --> 24:54.593 I think because they are frustrated economically. 24:54.593 --> 24:58.931 I would hope that having the meany union buster in America 24:58.931 --> 25:01.800 who's warred on people who work for a living and boasts about 25:01.800 --> 25:05.504 how he reduced the pay of janitors and now supported a 25:05.504 --> 25:08.207 right to work law which undercuts the teamsters and the 25:08.207 --> 25:09.241 construction workers. 25:09.241 --> 25:10.175 >> Right. 25:10.175 --> 25:14.913 >> That he would be -- we could get a better response from white 25:14.913 --> 25:16.482 working-class people than we've gotten in a while. 25:16.482 --> 25:18.183 >> So we're about to be out of time. 25:18.183 --> 25:21.153 You don't miss being in this old job of yours? 25:21.153 --> 25:22.955 >> Oh, I'm very glad to have done it but I just wore out 25:22.955 --> 25:24.056 emotionally. 25:24.056 --> 25:24.957 >> It's done. 25:24.957 --> 25:27.326 >> I got to the point I realized -- the phone rang and I 25:27.326 --> 25:28.193 flinched. 25:28.193 --> 25:29.028 >> Is that right? 25:29.028 --> 25:30.462 Well, the book is great. 25:30.462 --> 25:31.864 It's a reminder of all that you did. 25:31.864 --> 25:33.532 I hope you enjoy your life post Congress. 25:33.532 --> 25:34.700 Thanks so much for coming by. 25:34.700 --> 25:36.001 Congressman Barney Frank. 25:36.001 --> 25:40.339 [Applause] 25:40.339 --> 25:42.474 We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:42.474 --> 25:46.545 Visit our website at klru.org/overheard to find 25:46.545 --> 25:49.982 invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience and guests, 25:49.982 --> 25:53.519 and an archive of past episodes. 25:53.519 --> 25:55.087 >> I never pretended to be religious. 25:55.087 --> 25:58.190 When I took the, what they call the oath of office every two 25:58.190 --> 26:00.392 years, I didn't take it as an oath. 26:00.392 --> 26:01.927 I said I affirm. 26:01.927 --> 26:03.462 But in the House of Representatives all of us do it 26:03.462 --> 26:05.264 together so who knew what I was saying? 26:12.604 --> 26:15.474 >> Funding for "Overheard" with Evan Smith is provided in part 26:15.474 --> 26:19.611 by MFI Foundation, improving the quality of life within our 26:19.611 --> 26:21.180 community. 26:21.180 --> 26:23.682 And from the Texas Board of Legal Specialization, 26:23.682 --> 26:26.618 board certified attorneys in your community. 26:26.618 --> 26:29.655 Experienced, respected, and tested. 26:29.655 --> 26:33.692 Also by Hillco Partners, Texas Government Affairs consultancy 26:33.692 --> 26:36.528 and its global healthcare consulting business unit, 26:36.528 --> 26:38.030 Hillco Health. 26:38.030 --> 26:40.866 And by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation. 26:40.866 --> 26:42.334 And viewers like you. 26:42.334 --> 26:43.669 Thank you.