1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,437 >> Funding for "Overheard" with Evan Smith is provided in part 2 00:00:03,437 --> 00:00:08,041 by MFI Foundation, improving the quality of life within our 3 00:00:08,041 --> 00:00:09,576 community. 4 00:00:09,576 --> 00:00:12,412 And from the Texas Board of Legal Specialization, 5 00:00:12,412 --> 00:00:15,048 board certified attorneys in your community. 6 00:00:15,048 --> 00:00:18,519 Experienced, respected, and tested. 7 00:00:18,519 --> 00:00:22,856 Also by Hillco Partners, a Texas Government Affairs consultancy. 8 00:00:22,856 --> 00:00:26,727 And by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation. 9 00:00:26,727 --> 00:00:28,762 And viewers like you. 10 00:00:28,762 --> 00:00:30,597 Thank you. 11 00:00:30,597 --> 00:00:31,598 >> I'm Evan Smith. 12 00:00:31,598 --> 00:00:34,835 He spent 32 years representing Massachusetts' 4th Congressional 13 00:00:34,835 --> 00:00:35,936 District in the U.S. 14 00:00:35,936 --> 00:00:38,038 House retiring in 2013. 15 00:00:38,038 --> 00:00:41,208 His just published memoir "Frank" is a "New York Times" 16 00:00:41,208 --> 00:00:42,209 bestseller. 17 00:00:42,209 --> 00:00:43,510 He's Barney Frank. 18 00:00:43,510 --> 00:00:45,512 This is "Overheard." 19 00:00:45,512 --> 00:00:49,483 >> Actually, there are not two sides to every issue. 20 00:00:49,483 --> 00:00:50,817 >> So I guess we can't fire him now. 21 00:00:50,817 --> 00:00:54,021 >> I guess we can't fire him now. 22 00:00:54,021 --> 00:00:55,656 The night that I win the Emmy. 23 00:00:55,656 --> 00:00:59,426 >> Being on the Supreme Court was an improbable dream. 24 00:00:59,426 --> 00:01:01,495 >> It's hard work and it's controversial. 25 00:01:01,495 --> 00:01:03,931 >> Without information there is no freedom and it's journalists 26 00:01:03,931 --> 00:01:05,799 who provide that information. 27 00:01:05,799 --> 00:01:07,601 >> Window rolls down and this guy says, hey, 28 00:01:07,601 --> 00:01:09,569 he goes until 11:00. 29 00:01:09,569 --> 00:01:10,470 [Laughter] 30 00:01:17,511 --> 00:01:18,845 >> Congressman Frank, nice to meet you. 31 00:01:18,845 --> 00:01:19,646 >> Thank you. 32 00:01:19,646 --> 00:01:21,748 >> Nice to see you and congratulations on the book. 33 00:01:21,748 --> 00:01:22,683 >> Apprciate it. Thanks. 34 00:01:22,683 --> 00:01:25,752 >> Could you have imagined all those years ago in Bayonne or in 35 00:01:25,752 --> 00:01:29,556 Boston as you were in school and getting your start in politics 36 00:01:29,556 --> 00:01:32,926 that being a member of Congress might make you more unpopular 37 00:01:32,926 --> 00:01:35,095 than being openly gay? 38 00:01:35,095 --> 00:01:36,330 Hasn't the world changed? 39 00:01:36,330 --> 00:01:37,164 [Laughter] 40 00:01:37,164 --> 00:01:37,998 >> Oh, absolutely. 41 00:01:37,998 --> 00:01:39,499 As I sat down to write the book I realized, 42 00:01:39,499 --> 00:01:45,138 as I said in my last years when people polled, 43 00:01:45,138 --> 00:01:48,942 I reassured my husband -- I did not do this polling myself -- 44 00:01:48,942 --> 00:01:52,946 but the poll results were that my marrying Jim, 45 00:01:52,946 --> 00:01:56,416 as a member of Congress -- still the only same-sex marriage from 46 00:01:56,416 --> 00:01:59,853 a member of Congress, received much more public approval than 47 00:01:59,853 --> 00:02:02,155 my chairmanship of the Financial Services Committee. 48 00:02:02,155 --> 00:02:03,757 [Laughter] 49 00:02:03,757 --> 00:02:04,725 >> Right, they would much rather, yeah. 50 00:02:04,725 --> 00:02:10,097 >> And people said, well, did you think, even in 2005 51 00:02:10,097 --> 00:02:11,932 when Massachusetts just same sex marriage -- 52 00:02:11,932 --> 00:02:13,600 >> Recently, relatively. 53 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,670 >> Ten years ago I would have thought it would have been very 54 00:02:16,670 --> 00:02:18,305 controversial for me to get married while I was still in 55 00:02:18,305 --> 00:02:19,406 Congress. 56 00:02:19,406 --> 00:02:20,474 And here it turned out I was right. 57 00:02:20,474 --> 00:02:22,476 There was a great deal of controversy about my getting 58 00:02:22,476 --> 00:02:24,277 married. 59 00:02:24,277 --> 00:02:26,213 A lot of my colleagues were very angry that I didn't invite them. 60 00:02:26,213 --> 00:02:27,314 >> Invite them to the wedding, yeah. 61 00:02:27,314 --> 00:02:28,548 [Laughter] 62 00:02:28,548 --> 00:02:30,651 >> You know, you have to draw the line somewhere. 63 00:02:30,651 --> 00:02:32,853 >> And in the world of today or of two years ago when you got 64 00:02:32,853 --> 00:02:35,022 out of Congress, the fact is your spouse was accepted as a 65 00:02:35,022 --> 00:02:36,723 Congressional spouse no different from any other 66 00:02:36,723 --> 00:02:37,557 Congressional spouse. 67 00:02:37,557 --> 00:02:38,992 >> No, we made that rule. 68 00:02:38,992 --> 00:02:42,429 I treat -- you know, I read a couple of books through my 69 00:02:42,429 --> 00:02:44,464 career, which were manuals. 70 00:02:44,464 --> 00:02:47,801 And one was a biography of Adam Clayton Powell. 71 00:02:47,801 --> 00:02:51,571 When Adam Clayton Powell came to Congress from Harlem in 1943, 72 00:02:51,571 --> 00:02:54,107 he was only the third African-American in this century 73 00:02:54,107 --> 00:02:55,042 post Reconstruction. 74 00:02:55,042 --> 00:02:55,776 >> Right. 75 00:02:55,776 --> 00:02:58,445 >> The other two had been fairly docile people from Chicago. 76 00:02:58,445 --> 00:03:01,181 So when he got to Congress he was told as a black man that he 77 00:03:01,181 --> 00:03:05,819 could not use the House barber shop, the House swimming pool. 78 00:03:05,819 --> 00:03:08,221 The black maitre d' of the House restaurant told him he was not 79 00:03:08,221 --> 00:03:09,189 allowed to eat there. 80 00:03:09,189 --> 00:03:10,023 >> Right. 81 00:03:10,023 --> 00:03:11,124 >> And Powell said, the hell I'm not. 82 00:03:11,124 --> 00:03:12,292 And he did it. 83 00:03:12,292 --> 00:03:17,698 >> I came out voluntarily in 1987 and began dating. 84 00:03:17,698 --> 00:03:21,601 And I read Powell's stuff so I said here's our rule. 85 00:03:21,601 --> 00:03:24,571 We are not going to do anything just to make a point, 86 00:03:24,571 --> 00:03:27,607 but we're not going to not do anything because somebody else 87 00:03:27,607 --> 00:03:28,642 wants to make a point. 88 00:03:28,642 --> 00:03:30,577 So from the beginning I insist on that. 89 00:03:30,577 --> 00:03:32,446 And Jim's a natural. 90 00:03:32,446 --> 00:03:34,881 He's a guy that people like. 91 00:03:34,881 --> 00:03:39,252 So he became -- in fact, in some ways, again, more popular. 92 00:03:39,252 --> 00:03:42,589 He says at one point the senior Republican on the committee I 93 00:03:42,589 --> 00:03:47,360 was dealing with -- and I sometimes get a little cranky -- 94 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:48,428 >> Really? 95 00:03:48,428 --> 00:03:50,297 Hadn't seen that. 96 00:03:50,297 --> 00:03:54,201 >> -- at the end of the day. 97 00:03:54,201 --> 00:03:56,536 He ran into the senior Republican on the committee I 98 00:03:56,536 --> 00:03:58,438 was chairman and he was told, oh, 99 00:03:58,438 --> 00:04:00,273 I figured you were in town today. 100 00:04:00,273 --> 00:04:01,675 And Jim said, well how did you know that? 101 00:04:01,675 --> 00:04:02,976 He said, well Barney was nice. 102 00:04:02,976 --> 00:04:04,177 >> He was in a good mood, right, exactly. 103 00:04:04,177 --> 00:04:05,645 How perfect. 104 00:04:05,645 --> 00:04:06,413 [Laughter] 105 00:04:06,413 --> 00:04:08,982 >> What changed in the last ten years, not just in Congress, 106 00:04:08,982 --> 00:04:10,417 but in this country? 107 00:04:10,417 --> 00:04:13,520 We're now at a place where acceptance of gays and lesbians 108 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,056 has got to be at a high point, right? 109 00:04:16,056 --> 00:04:18,558 >> If you had told me even two years ago that when the 110 00:04:18,558 --> 00:04:22,295 conservative Republican governor in the conservative cultural 111 00:04:22,295 --> 00:04:23,864 state of Indiana -- 112 00:04:23,864 --> 00:04:24,564 >> Yeah. 113 00:04:24,564 --> 00:04:27,400 >> -- was going to get his head beat in -- 114 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:28,068 >> Right. 115 00:04:28,068 --> 00:04:30,103 >> -- because he wanted to allow people to discriminate against 116 00:04:30,103 --> 00:04:33,740 us on religious basis, I would have been unbelieving. 117 00:04:33,740 --> 00:04:34,708 >> Yeah. 118 00:04:34,708 --> 00:04:37,444 >> Well, it's the end of a long process -- though I think it 119 00:04:37,444 --> 00:04:38,812 worked. 120 00:04:38,812 --> 00:04:40,747 There are very few things in American history that have 121 00:04:40,747 --> 00:04:44,184 changed so drastically with the begin point. 122 00:04:44,184 --> 00:04:45,318 Stonewall, 1969. 123 00:04:45,318 --> 00:04:46,553 >> Right. 124 00:04:46,553 --> 00:04:47,754 >> And what I learned then -- I filed the first 125 00:04:47,754 --> 00:04:51,291 gay rights bill in Massachusetts in 1972. 126 00:04:51,291 --> 00:04:52,659 By the way, I was still then closeted. 127 00:04:52,659 --> 00:04:54,895 I made a decision early on when I went in the public life -- 128 00:04:54,895 --> 00:04:55,829 >> Right. 129 00:04:55,829 --> 00:04:57,364 And you write about that quite extensively in here. 130 00:04:57,364 --> 00:04:58,598 >> I made two decisions. 131 00:04:58,598 --> 00:05:00,333 First of all, I would be a coward. 132 00:05:00,333 --> 00:05:02,569 I would not be honest about being gay. 133 00:05:02,569 --> 00:05:04,337 Secondly, I would not be a hypocrite. 134 00:05:04,337 --> 00:05:07,174 I would not withhold my support from efforts to treat gay people 135 00:05:07,174 --> 00:05:08,108 fairly. 136 00:05:08,108 --> 00:05:08,642 >> Right. 137 00:05:08,642 --> 00:05:10,811 >> I have only contempt for gay men. 138 00:05:10,811 --> 00:05:12,512 Nobody has had to come out. 139 00:05:12,512 --> 00:05:13,346 >> Right. 140 00:05:13,346 --> 00:05:15,148 >> But to be a gay person or a lesbian, 141 00:05:15,148 --> 00:05:16,283 except the lesbians didn't do that. 142 00:05:16,283 --> 00:05:17,250 It was only the gay guys. 143 00:05:17,250 --> 00:05:18,852 >> In fact, you seem more contemptuous -- I don't mean to 144 00:05:18,852 --> 00:05:19,619 digress. 145 00:05:19,619 --> 00:05:21,888 You seem more contemptuous in this book of hypocrisy than you 146 00:05:21,888 --> 00:05:23,823 do of just straight ahead homophobia. 147 00:05:23,823 --> 00:05:24,591 >> Oh, absolutely, yeah. 148 00:05:24,591 --> 00:05:26,660 Because it's an undermining of democracy. 149 00:05:26,660 --> 00:05:29,496 If you are making rules for other people that you then don't 150 00:05:29,496 --> 00:05:31,431 follow yourself you have undermined the fundamental core 151 00:05:31,431 --> 00:05:33,333 principle of democracy. 152 00:05:33,333 --> 00:05:35,835 That goes back to John Locke's Treatise on Civil Government, 153 00:05:35,835 --> 00:05:40,140 which was a manual for the founding fathers. 154 00:05:40,140 --> 00:05:42,909 What happened was I was late doing it. 155 00:05:42,909 --> 00:05:45,579 We told the world who we were. 156 00:05:45,579 --> 00:05:48,748 I think the reason we have made this progress was it's easy to 157 00:05:48,748 --> 00:05:53,386 be prejudice against a stereotype with no reality. 158 00:05:53,386 --> 00:05:56,723 And essentially what happened was over time we told people who 159 00:05:56,723 --> 00:05:57,591 we were. 160 00:05:57,591 --> 00:05:58,458 >> Right. 161 00:05:58,458 --> 00:06:01,161 >> And our reality ultimately undermined the prejudice. 162 00:06:01,161 --> 00:06:06,700 And you saw this, for example, in the Defense of Marriage Act. 163 00:06:06,700 --> 00:06:08,768 By the time that came along there were people who don't like 164 00:06:08,768 --> 00:06:11,871 gay people or lesbians, but in America it wasn't considered 165 00:06:11,871 --> 00:06:14,241 right to just come out and say I hate those people, 166 00:06:14,241 --> 00:06:15,842 I want them to be unhappy. 167 00:06:15,842 --> 00:06:16,843 >> Right. 168 00:06:16,843 --> 00:06:19,412 >> Originally there was support for that in America. 169 00:06:19,412 --> 00:06:21,748 The Puritan movement, which H.L. 170 00:06:21,748 --> 00:06:24,985 Mencken defined as the haunting fear that someone somewhere 171 00:06:24,985 --> 00:06:26,486 might be having a good time. 172 00:06:26,486 --> 00:06:28,221 [Laughter] 173 00:06:28,221 --> 00:06:29,522 >> That was Puritanism. 174 00:06:29,522 --> 00:06:32,792 And, but, what happened was they didn't want to come right out 175 00:06:32,792 --> 00:06:36,196 and say we don't like one of them so two of them is disgusting. 176 00:06:36,196 --> 00:06:38,598 Instead they said, if they are allowed to marry it will have 177 00:06:38,598 --> 00:06:40,066 negative social consequences. 178 00:06:40,066 --> 00:06:40,667 >> Right. 179 00:06:40,667 --> 00:06:42,869 >> And that was the beginning of our winning. 180 00:06:42,869 --> 00:06:46,172 Because once Massachusetts, thanks to a great Supreme Court 181 00:06:46,172 --> 00:06:49,843 decision in our state, allowed same-sex marriage and none of 182 00:06:49,843 --> 00:06:52,145 the negative consequences came forward. 183 00:06:52,145 --> 00:06:54,281 >> Right. The Apocalypse did not come. 184 00:06:54,281 --> 00:06:55,682 >> So that's basically what happened was they made all these 185 00:06:55,682 --> 00:06:58,018 accusations about us. 186 00:06:58,018 --> 00:06:59,586 We told people who we really were. 187 00:06:59,586 --> 00:07:02,856 And then every time we came forward with an issue, 188 00:07:02,856 --> 00:07:05,692 we allowed gay and lesbian people to serve openly in the 189 00:07:05,692 --> 00:07:07,193 military. 190 00:07:07,193 --> 00:07:09,029 Most people in the military have forgotten that. 191 00:07:09,029 --> 00:07:11,164 Go back and I wish one of the things people would do, 192 00:07:11,164 --> 00:07:13,967 when people make these predictions that there's going 193 00:07:13,967 --> 00:07:16,369 to be gloom and doom, hold them to them. 194 00:07:16,369 --> 00:07:17,270 Wait and see what happens -- 195 00:07:17,270 --> 00:07:17,937 >> Right. 196 00:07:17,937 --> 00:07:19,172 And remind them what they said. 197 00:07:19,172 --> 00:07:19,839 >> Exactly. 198 00:07:19,839 --> 00:07:21,241 >> Because you talk a lot about the repeal of 199 00:07:21,241 --> 00:07:22,342 Don't Ask Don't Tell. 200 00:07:22,342 --> 00:07:25,312 The Clinton years is essentially a study, 201 00:07:25,312 --> 00:07:27,247 and everybody working this out in realtime. 202 00:07:27,247 --> 00:07:28,248 >> Absolutely. 203 00:07:28,248 --> 00:07:30,016 >> You talk a lot about that in this book and the reality is 204 00:07:30,016 --> 00:07:33,019 that's barely 20 years ago that we're talking about and yet the 205 00:07:33,019 --> 00:07:35,355 world has completely changed to the point that we forgot there 206 00:07:35,355 --> 00:07:36,389 was a time. 207 00:07:36,389 --> 00:07:37,023 >> No question. 208 00:07:37,023 --> 00:07:40,293 Bill Clinton, to his credit, tried to get rid of the ban on 209 00:07:40,293 --> 00:07:42,295 gays serving in the military. 210 00:07:42,295 --> 00:07:42,996 >> Right. 211 00:07:42,996 --> 00:07:45,265 >> And -- 212 00:07:45,265 --> 00:07:46,700 >> The security clearance question. 213 00:07:46,700 --> 00:07:50,470 >> Yeah, well, Clinton tried to do that and he was foiled by a 214 00:07:50,470 --> 00:07:52,172 combination of Bob Dole and Sam Nunn. 215 00:07:52,172 --> 00:07:53,173 >> Sam Nunn, right, yeah. 216 00:07:53,173 --> 00:07:54,040 >> Politics at the time. 217 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:55,842 But also, as I say in the book, part of the problem was this, 218 00:07:55,842 --> 00:07:58,578 and I've spent a lot of my time arguing the substance with my 219 00:07:58,578 --> 00:08:03,817 Conservative opponents, but arguing procedure with my 220 00:08:03,817 --> 00:08:05,085 Liberal allies. 221 00:08:05,085 --> 00:08:07,854 Because there has been this tendency for people on the left 222 00:08:07,854 --> 00:08:11,191 to engage in expressive politics. 223 00:08:11,191 --> 00:08:13,426 Let's demonstrate, let's march, let's rally. 224 00:08:13,426 --> 00:08:14,160 >> Right. 225 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:15,161 >> None of which does you any good. 226 00:08:15,161 --> 00:08:15,695 >> Right. 227 00:08:15,695 --> 00:08:17,163 >> It's mostly talking to each other. 228 00:08:17,163 --> 00:08:19,065 As I said, one of my frustrations has been over the 229 00:08:19,065 --> 00:08:21,868 time when the right gets mad they vote. 230 00:08:21,868 --> 00:08:23,503 When the left gets mad they march. 231 00:08:23,503 --> 00:08:24,604 Voting beats marching. 232 00:08:24,604 --> 00:08:25,972 >> Voting ends up being -- 233 00:08:25,972 --> 00:08:29,142 >> That's why the Tea Party, to my regret, 234 00:08:29,142 --> 00:08:31,811 had much more impact on public policy than the Occupy movement. 235 00:08:31,811 --> 00:08:34,114 >> Well, the old cliche elections have consequences -- 236 00:08:34,114 --> 00:08:35,048 >> That's absolutely right. 237 00:08:35,048 --> 00:08:36,583 >> It's a cliche because it's true. 238 00:08:36,583 --> 00:08:37,183 >> That's a good point. 239 00:08:37,183 --> 00:08:39,552 Most cliches are true. 240 00:08:39,552 --> 00:08:41,254 The problem with the cliche is not that it's not true, 241 00:08:41,254 --> 00:08:41,921 it's boring. 242 00:08:41,921 --> 00:08:42,555 >> It's boring. 243 00:08:42,555 --> 00:08:44,657 >> You have to be true to become a cliche. 244 00:08:44,657 --> 00:08:48,161 >> So I'm remembering an account you give in the book of a very 245 00:08:48,161 --> 00:08:54,200 large march or rally in 1993 when somebody got up and said, 246 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,669 made a comment about wanting to have sex with Hillary Clinton. 247 00:08:56,669 --> 00:08:57,637 It was actually a -- 248 00:08:57,637 --> 00:08:59,406 >> It was a woman, of course. 249 00:08:59,406 --> 00:09:00,840 It was the LGBT. 250 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,609 >> I would like to have sex with Hillary Clinton, and, in fact, 251 00:09:02,609 --> 00:09:04,577 it was said a little bit differently than I just said it. 252 00:09:04,577 --> 00:09:06,446 Couldn't say it on public television. 253 00:09:06,446 --> 00:09:08,381 >> Wouldn't it be great that there's now a first lady I'd 254 00:09:08,381 --> 00:09:09,549 like to bleep. 255 00:09:09,549 --> 00:09:10,650 >> To blank, right. 256 00:09:10,650 --> 00:09:12,485 And your point was that kind of conduct -- 257 00:09:12,485 --> 00:09:14,087 >> Because you want to bleep her, not blank her. 258 00:09:14,087 --> 00:09:14,921 >> Bleep her. 259 00:09:14,921 --> 00:09:16,022 Bleep her. 260 00:09:16,022 --> 00:09:16,790 [Laughter] 261 00:09:16,790 --> 00:09:20,660 >> That's sort of a statement where you tell the story of a 262 00:09:20,660 --> 00:09:22,695 bunch of soldiers who were emulating kicks like the 263 00:09:22,695 --> 00:09:24,264 Rockettes, your point was -- 264 00:09:24,264 --> 00:09:26,433 >> Yeah, these are gay men who have been kicked out of the 265 00:09:26,433 --> 00:09:29,135 military whom were trying to say, look, this is ridiculous. 266 00:09:29,135 --> 00:09:30,336 They will be soldiers like anybody else. 267 00:09:30,336 --> 00:09:34,074 And some organizer -- and the focus is let's play to each 268 00:09:34,074 --> 00:09:37,010 other's emotions. 269 00:09:37,010 --> 00:09:40,013 Let's forget that we're trying to persuade others. 270 00:09:40,013 --> 00:09:44,384 So he had them lined up ready to do a kick routine like the 271 00:09:44,384 --> 00:09:45,452 Rockettes. 272 00:09:45,452 --> 00:09:48,021 And I said no and people got very angry at me. 273 00:09:48,021 --> 00:09:51,157 >> But your point was use the time you have in the public eye 274 00:09:51,157 --> 00:09:54,427 to be successful at politics, not at theater. 275 00:09:54,427 --> 00:09:54,961 >> Yeah. 276 00:09:54,961 --> 00:09:56,963 And some of my friends say, well, 277 00:09:56,963 --> 00:09:58,565 we got to be like the African-American movement. 278 00:09:58,565 --> 00:10:00,467 And they say that and they're right. 279 00:10:00,467 --> 00:10:01,534 We should be. 280 00:10:01,534 --> 00:10:02,569 They misunderstand it. 281 00:10:02,569 --> 00:10:04,204 Martin Luther King was a very clever, 282 00:10:04,204 --> 00:10:05,672 thoughtful strategist as well as a -- 283 00:10:05,672 --> 00:10:06,739 >> A tactician. 284 00:10:06,739 --> 00:10:07,574 >> -- great moral leader. 285 00:10:07,574 --> 00:10:08,408 >> Right, yeah. 286 00:10:08,408 --> 00:10:12,078 >> And I contrast the march on Washington in 1964 with its 287 00:10:12,078 --> 00:10:13,379 tight discipline. 288 00:10:13,379 --> 00:10:16,182 It's saying we're going to send this message to white America. 289 00:10:16,182 --> 00:10:19,018 With the self-indulgence of our march in '93, 290 00:10:19,018 --> 00:10:22,856 the best example is one of the great moral heroes of my time or 291 00:10:22,856 --> 00:10:24,424 of any time, John Lewis. 292 00:10:24,424 --> 00:10:25,758 A man who literally risked his life -- 293 00:10:25,758 --> 00:10:26,292 >> Yeah. 294 00:10:26,292 --> 00:10:28,828 >> -- for this principle. 295 00:10:28,828 --> 00:10:31,264 John said, he says in his own book, 296 00:10:31,264 --> 00:10:32,599 I have talked to him about it. 297 00:10:32,599 --> 00:10:35,235 He was asked to speak at the march on Washington, 298 00:10:35,235 --> 00:10:37,637 this representative of young people. 299 00:10:37,637 --> 00:10:40,907 He had to submit something like five drafts of his speech to 300 00:10:40,907 --> 00:10:43,409 A. Phillip Randolph's agent, Bayard Rustin. 301 00:10:43,409 --> 00:10:46,312 And each time he was told, John, that's too radical. 302 00:10:46,312 --> 00:10:48,248 At one point he said in his speech, 303 00:10:48,248 --> 00:10:50,116 he remembered him telling this, the people demand. 304 00:10:50,116 --> 00:10:51,017 They said no, no. 305 00:10:51,017 --> 00:10:53,686 That's going to make people nervous, so make your pick. 306 00:10:53,686 --> 00:10:57,690 So the contrast between the two is what I was hoping 307 00:10:57,690 --> 00:11:01,094 to get our my eyes and the LGBT movement -- 308 00:11:01,094 --> 00:11:03,096 >> Well, there's no question that one of the interesting 309 00:11:03,096 --> 00:11:05,231 takeaways of this book is that you are as critical of your own 310 00:11:05,231 --> 00:11:07,300 side, in some respects, as you are of the other side. 311 00:11:07,300 --> 00:11:07,934 >> Procedurally. 312 00:11:07,934 --> 00:11:08,968 >> Procedurally. 313 00:11:08,968 --> 00:11:10,470 >> And the other point I want to make is this. 314 00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:14,841 One of the things I get really bothered by are my colleagues 315 00:11:14,841 --> 00:11:17,677 who beat their chest about how brave they are by standing up to 316 00:11:17,677 --> 00:11:19,179 their opponents. 317 00:11:19,179 --> 00:11:20,413 I tell the right wing this. 318 00:11:20,413 --> 00:11:21,681 I tell the right wing that. 319 00:11:21,681 --> 00:11:23,850 Well, the fact is that, you know, 320 00:11:23,850 --> 00:11:25,852 if you're barely picking on people who are never going to be 321 00:11:25,852 --> 00:11:28,922 with you, that's very useful because it just builds up your 322 00:11:28,922 --> 00:11:30,323 campaign contributions. 323 00:11:30,323 --> 00:11:30,924 >> Right. 324 00:11:30,924 --> 00:11:33,259 >> But Ted Kennedy and Jesse Helms probably raised 325 00:11:33,259 --> 00:11:35,328 $100 million each for the other. 326 00:11:35,328 --> 00:11:37,864 One would criticize and then the other one would send out that 327 00:11:37,864 --> 00:11:38,965 criticism and vice versa. 328 00:11:38,965 --> 00:11:39,899 >> Right. 329 00:11:39,899 --> 00:11:41,935 >> The hardest thing in politics is to stand up to your friends 330 00:11:41,935 --> 00:11:44,871 and tell your friends that you disagree with them. 331 00:11:44,871 --> 00:11:45,605 >> Right. 332 00:11:45,605 --> 00:11:47,774 >> In my case, as I said, it was almost always about -- it was 333 00:11:47,774 --> 00:11:50,276 always about procedure and not substance, 334 00:11:50,276 --> 00:11:51,644 but there's not enough of that. 335 00:11:51,644 --> 00:11:54,881 There's not enough telling the people close to you when you 336 00:11:54,881 --> 00:11:55,615 think they're wrong. 337 00:11:55,615 --> 00:11:56,149 >> Right. 338 00:11:56,149 --> 00:11:57,383 So we have openly gay athletes now. 339 00:11:57,383 --> 00:11:58,117 >> Yes. 340 00:11:58,117 --> 00:12:01,321 >> We have openly gay people in the service, as you say. 341 00:12:01,321 --> 00:12:04,958 We have, I believe, seven openly gay or lesbian or bisexual -- 342 00:12:04,958 --> 00:12:06,326 >> One senator and six representatives. 343 00:12:06,326 --> 00:12:07,093 >> -- members of Congress. 344 00:12:07,093 --> 00:12:08,595 We have an openly bisexual governor of Oregon. 345 00:12:08,595 --> 00:12:09,395 >> Yep. 346 00:12:09,395 --> 00:12:13,967 >> And yet have the politics of this country adequately changed 347 00:12:13,967 --> 00:12:15,101 to your satisfaction? 348 00:12:15,101 --> 00:12:16,202 I'm guessing the answer is no. 349 00:12:16,202 --> 00:12:17,237 >> No, pretty much they have. 350 00:12:17,237 --> 00:12:18,705 But here's the deal. 351 00:12:18,705 --> 00:12:21,541 Every one of the people you named is a Democrat. 352 00:12:21,541 --> 00:12:25,278 >> Right, there are no Republicans serving in Congress 353 00:12:25,278 --> 00:12:26,079 who are openly gay. 354 00:12:26,079 --> 00:12:27,947 >> You go back to 1976, which I remember, 355 00:12:27,947 --> 00:12:32,452 and Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford were both beginning to be 356 00:12:32,452 --> 00:12:37,323 supportive of equal treatment for lesbian and gay people. 357 00:12:37,323 --> 00:12:43,162 And then -- and since then there have been three trend lines in 358 00:12:43,162 --> 00:12:44,731 American politics about LGBT issues. 359 00:12:44,731 --> 00:12:47,467 The country as a whole has been getting better at an 360 00:12:47,467 --> 00:12:49,135 increasingly good rate. 361 00:12:49,135 --> 00:12:51,738 The Democrats have been getting better at an even faster rate 362 00:12:51,738 --> 00:12:54,107 and the Republicans had been getting worse. 363 00:12:54,107 --> 00:12:55,675 Until recently they were actually getting worse. 364 00:12:55,675 --> 00:12:59,879 Now the Republicans are in a situation which troubles them. 365 00:12:59,879 --> 00:13:01,848 It used to be the one that had the Democrats in. 366 00:13:01,848 --> 00:13:05,018 That is, there was a split on LGBT issues between their 367 00:13:05,018 --> 00:13:07,520 political base, the people who vote in primaries, 368 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:08,955 and the general electorate. 369 00:13:08,955 --> 00:13:10,290 >> Right. 370 00:13:10,290 --> 00:13:12,558 >> And so they are moderating the ferocity of their attacks on 371 00:13:12,558 --> 00:13:13,259 us -- 372 00:13:13,259 --> 00:13:13,993 >> Right. 373 00:13:13,993 --> 00:13:16,696 >> But you still predict now, not too much, 374 00:13:16,696 --> 00:13:19,565 the Republican platform will be very critical of LGBT movement 375 00:13:19,565 --> 00:13:23,336 next time and there'll be no Republican presidential 376 00:13:23,336 --> 00:13:24,937 candidate will be supportive. 377 00:13:24,937 --> 00:13:26,673 So the country, as a whole, is moving. 378 00:13:26,673 --> 00:13:28,508 What's changed in the last month was -- 379 00:13:28,508 --> 00:13:29,642 >> Yeah. 380 00:13:29,642 --> 00:13:31,477 >> -- Indiana and then Arkansas. 381 00:13:31,477 --> 00:13:36,282 Because a critical block has moved into this fight, 382 00:13:36,282 --> 00:13:38,918 and it's the business community. 383 00:13:38,918 --> 00:13:39,519 It's very good to win an issue -- 384 00:13:39,519 --> 00:13:40,586 >> Right. 385 00:13:40,586 --> 00:13:42,321 >> -- because you have morality on your side. 386 00:13:42,321 --> 00:13:44,891 But it helps in America if the profit motive weighs in. 387 00:13:44,891 --> 00:13:46,192 [Laughter] 388 00:13:46,192 --> 00:13:48,361 >> And essentially what you now have is the business community 389 00:13:48,361 --> 00:13:51,330 saying to the bigots, will you please knock it off, 390 00:13:51,330 --> 00:13:52,899 you are interfering with our ability -- 391 00:13:52,899 --> 00:13:54,033 >> To make a buck. 392 00:13:54,033 --> 00:13:55,468 >> -- to ruin the economy and make money. 393 00:13:55,468 --> 00:13:56,703 And that, I believe -- 394 00:13:56,703 --> 00:13:58,738 >> At the end of the day that's going to trump everything else. 395 00:13:58,738 --> 00:14:00,606 >> Well, you know, Adlai Stevenson. 396 00:14:00,606 --> 00:14:04,110 I recorded Adlai Stevenson in a remark that showed his humor and 397 00:14:04,110 --> 00:14:07,013 his political misjudgment sometimes. 398 00:14:07,013 --> 00:14:08,981 He gave a great speech and a woman said, oh, governor. 399 00:14:08,981 --> 00:14:11,284 Your speech was marvelous. 400 00:14:11,284 --> 00:14:13,686 You'll have the votes of all the thinking people. 401 00:14:13,686 --> 00:14:15,421 He said I know, madam, but I need a majority. 402 00:14:15,421 --> 00:14:16,122 >> I need to win, right. 403 00:14:16,122 --> 00:14:17,090 Yeah. 404 00:14:17,090 --> 00:14:17,690 [Laughter] 405 00:14:17,690 --> 00:14:19,692 >> And so that didn't help him win. 406 00:14:19,692 --> 00:14:22,095 But I'm glad to have the support of all the morally driven 407 00:14:22,095 --> 00:14:23,363 people. 408 00:14:23,363 --> 00:14:24,630 But, yeah, to win. 409 00:14:24,630 --> 00:14:26,833 >> Right. 410 00:14:26,833 --> 00:14:27,667 >> And so you have the American businessmen and it's interesting 411 00:14:27,667 --> 00:14:28,935 what they're saying, and they're saying this, 412 00:14:28,935 --> 00:14:31,370 do not give us the right to discriminate. 413 00:14:31,370 --> 00:14:33,206 You are giving me something I didn't ask for. 414 00:14:33,206 --> 00:14:37,343 Because if a business has the legal and moral obligation to 415 00:14:37,343 --> 00:14:39,445 serve everybody, no controversy. 416 00:14:39,445 --> 00:14:41,714 But if you say to them, okay, you can pick and choose, 417 00:14:41,714 --> 00:14:43,583 then once they start picking and choosing, 418 00:14:43,583 --> 00:14:45,118 somebody is going to be mad at them. 419 00:14:45,118 --> 00:14:48,254 Either they'll be too kind to gay people or not kind enough. 420 00:14:48,254 --> 00:14:49,388 >> In either case they'll be boycotted. 421 00:14:49,388 --> 00:14:54,627 >> Yeah, so the good of the properly understood and there's 422 00:14:54,627 --> 00:14:56,095 a great legal distinction. 423 00:14:56,095 --> 00:14:57,330 I don't like metaphors, generally. 424 00:14:57,330 --> 00:14:59,699 But between the shield and the sword, 425 00:14:59,699 --> 00:15:02,902 a shield is a legal concept that protects you from other people 426 00:15:02,902 --> 00:15:04,337 intruding on your life. 427 00:15:04,337 --> 00:15:05,104 >> Right. 428 00:15:05,104 --> 00:15:08,107 >> So that I can wear a yarmulke if I want to. 429 00:15:08,107 --> 00:15:10,777 The Native Americans can smoke peyote. 430 00:15:10,777 --> 00:15:13,279 Although as far as I'm concerned anybody who wants to smoke 431 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:14,580 peyote ought to smoke it. 432 00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:15,448 [Laughter] 433 00:15:15,448 --> 00:15:16,916 >> But we said you cannot interfere with my religious 434 00:15:16,916 --> 00:15:17,817 freedom. 435 00:15:17,817 --> 00:15:20,620 The sword is when I take that concept and I interfere with 436 00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:21,554 you. 437 00:15:21,554 --> 00:15:22,255 >> Right. 438 00:15:22,255 --> 00:15:24,390 >> And what happened was we originally saw the Religious 439 00:15:24,390 --> 00:15:27,160 Freedom acts as a shield against you being told you couldn't 440 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,129 practice your religion, even if it didn't bother anybody else. 441 00:15:30,129 --> 00:15:32,799 And then it was converted into an active way for you to hurt 442 00:15:32,799 --> 00:15:33,900 other people. 443 00:15:33,900 --> 00:15:35,635 And it's going to get retracted back to that shield, 444 00:15:35,635 --> 00:15:36,235 and that's fine. 445 00:15:36,235 --> 00:15:37,036 >> Yeah. 446 00:15:37,036 --> 00:15:38,738 On gay marriage, which is another half, 447 00:15:38,738 --> 00:15:42,408 or the other half of this issue we were visiting before we came 448 00:15:42,408 --> 00:15:45,111 out on stage today that in some respect there may be some 449 00:15:45,111 --> 00:15:47,647 Republicans who are secretly hoping that the Supreme Court 450 00:15:47,647 --> 00:15:50,316 weighs in in favor of gay marriage so that sharp object is 451 00:15:50,316 --> 00:15:51,384 taken off the table. 452 00:15:51,384 --> 00:15:52,852 >> I mean, it's an absolute analogy in the business 453 00:15:52,852 --> 00:15:53,786 community. 454 00:15:53,786 --> 00:15:56,088 Right now a Republican has the choice of being for or against 455 00:15:56,088 --> 00:15:57,423 same-sex marriage. 456 00:15:57,423 --> 00:16:01,227 And if he or she is against it then you have problems in 457 00:16:01,227 --> 00:16:01,994 November. 458 00:16:01,994 --> 00:16:04,263 But if you're for it then you have problems with your base. 459 00:16:04,263 --> 00:16:08,968 If the Supreme Court says is it -- and I correct myself. 460 00:16:08,968 --> 00:16:11,037 If the Supreme Court says that it's a constitutional right 461 00:16:11,037 --> 00:16:13,439 maybe then they can keep it out of the platform because they can 462 00:16:13,439 --> 00:16:15,308 say, well, that's what the Supreme Court said. 463 00:16:15,308 --> 00:16:18,845 >> Well, abortion is legal in this country last time I looked 464 00:16:18,845 --> 00:16:20,012 thanks to the Supreme Court. 465 00:16:20,012 --> 00:16:22,048 And yet I think there's probably anti-abortion language in the 466 00:16:22,048 --> 00:16:23,216 Republican Party platform too. 467 00:16:23,216 --> 00:16:23,983 >> Well, that's true. 468 00:16:23,983 --> 00:16:25,117 That's a fair point and, in fact, 469 00:16:25,117 --> 00:16:29,956 people should understand abortion is now legal by about 470 00:16:29,956 --> 00:16:32,658 four and three quarters to four and a quarter of the Supreme 471 00:16:32,658 --> 00:16:33,559 Court. 472 00:16:33,559 --> 00:16:34,794 I mean, there were four who were for it, 473 00:16:34,794 --> 00:16:35,862 four who were against it. 474 00:16:35,862 --> 00:16:37,663 And Justice Kennedy is finding a lot of ways to go for 475 00:16:37,663 --> 00:16:39,398 restrictions. 476 00:16:39,398 --> 00:16:43,002 Sandra Day O'Connor, who resigned from the Supreme Court, 477 00:16:43,002 --> 00:16:45,771 timing it so that George W. Bush could replace her 478 00:16:45,771 --> 00:16:49,342 now appears to have resigner's remorse because she's upset -- 479 00:16:49,342 --> 00:16:49,976 >> Right. 480 00:16:49,976 --> 00:16:51,744 >> -- that some of the decisions she made, 481 00:16:51,744 --> 00:16:54,513 both in campaign finance and affirmative action, 482 00:16:54,513 --> 00:16:56,415 but also on abortion are being overturned. 483 00:16:56,415 --> 00:16:58,517 But she should have thought of that when she let him appoint 484 00:16:58,517 --> 00:17:00,119 these guys. 485 00:17:00,119 --> 00:17:00,987 >> Come back to what I said earlier, 486 00:17:00,987 --> 00:17:01,988 elections have consequences. 487 00:17:01,988 --> 00:17:03,022 >> Absolutely right. 488 00:17:03,022 --> 00:17:06,726 And of 2016, and I say this to, you know, all the people, 489 00:17:06,726 --> 00:17:09,629 there's no difference. 490 00:17:09,629 --> 00:17:12,398 2016 is going to decide whether or not the federal government 491 00:17:12,398 --> 00:17:13,266 does anything about climate change. 492 00:17:13,266 --> 00:17:13,933 >> Yeah. 493 00:17:13,933 --> 00:17:16,402 >> It will decide whether or not we preserve financial reform, 494 00:17:16,402 --> 00:17:17,703 which obviously I'm invested in. 495 00:17:17,703 --> 00:17:19,338 >> You have a certain amount of named -- you have naming rights 496 00:17:19,338 --> 00:17:20,306 on that, right. 497 00:17:20,306 --> 00:17:22,375 >> If the Republicans win, they will repeal it. 498 00:17:22,375 --> 00:17:23,309 They all voted against it. 499 00:17:23,309 --> 00:17:26,946 And abortion will turn around. 500 00:17:26,946 --> 00:17:29,749 On the other hand, I believe if the Democrats win and the 501 00:17:29,749 --> 00:17:32,051 president gets to appoint somebody, 502 00:17:32,051 --> 00:17:34,620 her appointee will be someone who will -- 503 00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:36,088 [Laughter] 504 00:17:36,088 --> 00:17:39,358 >> You mean Elizabeth Warren? 505 00:17:39,358 --> 00:17:40,026 [Laughter] 506 00:17:40,026 --> 00:17:42,395 >> No, people have asked me. 507 00:17:42,395 --> 00:17:44,664 I support Elizabeth Warren in her -- 508 00:17:44,664 --> 00:17:46,432 >> Senate race. 509 00:17:46,432 --> 00:17:49,735 >> No, and I also support her in 2016, 510 00:17:49,735 --> 00:17:52,038 namely her very sensible declaration that she is not 511 00:17:52,038 --> 00:17:53,839 running for president. 512 00:17:53,839 --> 00:17:55,408 She is an enormous force for good. 513 00:17:55,408 --> 00:18:00,212 And the day she began to hint at running for president the media 514 00:18:00,212 --> 00:18:02,949 would then start picking apart everything she did and she would 515 00:18:02,949 --> 00:18:05,184 lose a lot of that credibility. 516 00:18:05,184 --> 00:18:07,019 And I know some of my friends on the left think, 517 00:18:07,019 --> 00:18:10,990 well why don't we have this really nice brawl for president? 518 00:18:10,990 --> 00:18:14,427 And my answer is, well, were they out of the country during 519 00:18:14,427 --> 00:18:17,530 2012 when the Republicans did themselves a lot of damage by 520 00:18:17,530 --> 00:18:18,864 throwing pies at each other? 521 00:18:18,864 --> 00:18:19,832 >> But of course you know, Congressman, 522 00:18:19,832 --> 00:18:22,134 that the opposite argument is being made by some Democrats. 523 00:18:22,134 --> 00:18:25,504 That if Secretary Clinton gets a glide path to the nomination, 524 00:18:25,504 --> 00:18:28,774 nominal opposition at best, by the time she gets into the 525 00:18:28,774 --> 00:18:30,776 general election she'll somehow be -- 526 00:18:30,776 --> 00:18:32,545 this is what they say -- out of practice. 527 00:18:32,545 --> 00:18:33,446 >> Yeah. 528 00:18:33,446 --> 00:18:35,982 >> You know, that she's somehow going to be worse for not having 529 00:18:35,982 --> 00:18:37,183 had a primary fight. 530 00:18:37,183 --> 00:18:38,684 >> That's a very dumb argument. 531 00:18:38,684 --> 00:18:39,218 I got to say. 532 00:18:39,218 --> 00:18:40,653 [Laughter] 533 00:18:40,653 --> 00:18:42,989 >> I am distancing myself from dumb arguments. 534 00:18:42,989 --> 00:18:45,524 >> First of all, you know, historically the notion that 535 00:18:45,524 --> 00:18:48,327 people have had an easy path to the nomination lose the 536 00:18:48,327 --> 00:18:51,764 nomination, lose the election, simply isn't empirically true. 537 00:18:51,764 --> 00:18:53,499 Has anybody checked and said, well, you know, 538 00:18:53,499 --> 00:18:55,534 this one had to fight for it, that one had to fight for it? 539 00:18:55,534 --> 00:19:00,473 Somebody it didn't help was Mitt Romney the last time. 540 00:19:00,473 --> 00:19:02,642 George W. Bush had a fairly easy path -- 541 00:19:02,642 --> 00:19:04,910 >> No, he had John McCain beat him in New Hampshire, right? 542 00:19:04,910 --> 00:19:05,845 I mean -- 543 00:19:05,845 --> 00:19:08,881 >> Yeah, but it was over fairly quickly. 544 00:19:08,881 --> 00:19:10,750 But the other point is this. 545 00:19:10,750 --> 00:19:12,952 I don't mean you, but there was a certain presumption for people 546 00:19:12,952 --> 00:19:14,253 who have never run for political office -- 547 00:19:14,253 --> 00:19:15,354 >> Right. 548 00:19:15,354 --> 00:19:17,690 >> -- telling a woman who twice worked with her husband to run 549 00:19:17,690 --> 00:19:20,393 for president, twice was elected to the United States Senate in 550 00:19:20,393 --> 00:19:23,996 New York, and then ran a very tough campaign for president 551 00:19:23,996 --> 00:19:26,198 that she doesn't know how to campaign or that she's going to 552 00:19:26,198 --> 00:19:27,066 forget it. 553 00:19:27,066 --> 00:19:30,236 Well this is not something you forget easily. 554 00:19:30,236 --> 00:19:31,971 No, I don't think they know more than she. 555 00:19:31,971 --> 00:19:34,607 And the other point is this: Yes, it would be nice if you 556 00:19:34,607 --> 00:19:36,442 had a debate purely on the merits -- 557 00:19:36,442 --> 00:19:37,143 >> Right. 558 00:19:37,143 --> 00:19:38,711 >> -- that did not get angry. 559 00:19:38,711 --> 00:19:40,746 Not in this country, not with this media. 560 00:19:40,746 --> 00:19:43,249 There is no way that you would have a primary without people 561 00:19:43,249 --> 00:19:44,283 getting negative. 562 00:19:44,283 --> 00:19:45,918 You can't control the people on your own side. 563 00:19:45,918 --> 00:19:46,585 >> Right. 564 00:19:46,585 --> 00:19:48,354 >> The media likes to make things angry. 565 00:19:48,354 --> 00:19:50,289 >> Well, we're fight promoters, not journalists. 566 00:19:50,289 --> 00:19:51,457 >> That's exactly right. 567 00:19:51,457 --> 00:19:52,458 >> I fully acknowledge that, yeah. 568 00:19:52,458 --> 00:19:55,494 >> And the fact also is that in the Democratic side this time 569 00:19:55,494 --> 00:19:57,463 there was a fairly broad consensus. 570 00:19:57,463 --> 00:20:01,634 Now there was some question on the foreign policy area. 571 00:20:01,634 --> 00:20:03,536 >> Well, in fact, you're a Liberal and unabashedly a 572 00:20:03,536 --> 00:20:04,570 Liberal. 573 00:20:04,570 --> 00:20:06,405 There are people who think that she's not liberal enough. 574 00:20:06,405 --> 00:20:07,473 So people on your side -- 575 00:20:07,473 --> 00:20:09,008 >> But, no, here's the deal. 576 00:20:09,008 --> 00:20:10,443 >> Financial reform. 577 00:20:10,443 --> 00:20:11,343 Too close to Wall Street. 578 00:20:11,343 --> 00:20:12,578 >> Yeah. 579 00:20:12,578 --> 00:20:15,681 She lives physically too close to Wall Street. 580 00:20:15,681 --> 00:20:17,216 From that standpoint -- 581 00:20:17,216 --> 00:20:18,551 >> This is a Mamaroneck problem? 582 00:20:18,551 --> 00:20:19,351 What is that? 583 00:20:19,351 --> 00:20:20,920 >> Well, she's a New York State senator and very few people 584 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,956 totally go to war with their home state entity, 585 00:20:23,956 --> 00:20:26,459 but the point is that when Barack Obama signed a bill that 586 00:20:26,459 --> 00:20:30,296 included a weakening amendment on financial reform, 587 00:20:30,296 --> 00:20:32,965 Hillary Clinton Tweeted that we should not, in any way, 588 00:20:32,965 --> 00:20:35,468 do that again and we should not erode it. 589 00:20:35,468 --> 00:20:39,171 The fact is that they say that but it's based on nothing. 590 00:20:39,171 --> 00:20:42,441 And it's true that she took contributions from the big 591 00:20:42,441 --> 00:20:43,576 financial people. 592 00:20:43,576 --> 00:20:46,112 By the way, so did Barack Obama in 2008. 593 00:20:46,112 --> 00:20:46,979 >> He did. 594 00:20:46,979 --> 00:20:49,415 >> Now by 2012 they weren't giving it -- and they would give 595 00:20:49,415 --> 00:20:50,649 to me too. 596 00:20:50,649 --> 00:20:52,451 I was chairman of committee, they gritted their teeth and 597 00:20:52,451 --> 00:20:53,519 they hated it. 598 00:20:53,519 --> 00:20:55,387 I had one guy, I don't want to embarrass him, 599 00:20:55,387 --> 00:20:57,823 but he's the head of mutual fund in Boston. 600 00:20:57,823 --> 00:21:00,226 So when they were trying to knock me off in 2010, 601 00:21:00,226 --> 00:21:03,195 they were mad over the financial reform bill. 602 00:21:03,195 --> 00:21:04,230 He gave me $10,000. 603 00:21:04,230 --> 00:21:06,499 Then I saw that he gave my opponent $10,000. 604 00:21:06,499 --> 00:21:07,833 So I said to him, well, you know, 605 00:21:07,833 --> 00:21:10,769 you're head of a mutual fund, you're a financial expert. 606 00:21:10,769 --> 00:21:12,938 I'm going to be your financial adviser. 607 00:21:12,938 --> 00:21:14,840 Instead of giving me $10,000 and him $10,000, 608 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,776 don't give any of us anything. 609 00:21:16,776 --> 00:21:17,610 >> Either one. 610 00:21:17,610 --> 00:21:20,513 >> You'll have the same effect and save $20,000. 611 00:21:20,513 --> 00:21:21,714 [Laughter] 612 00:21:21,714 --> 00:21:25,384 >> But I defy anyone to show me any issue on which Hillary 613 00:21:25,384 --> 00:21:26,719 Clinton was weak. 614 00:21:26,719 --> 00:21:29,321 It is true she supported a bankruptcy bill. 615 00:21:29,321 --> 00:21:30,122 >> Right. 616 00:21:30,122 --> 00:21:32,091 >> I voted against it, so did a lot of other Democrats. 617 00:21:32,091 --> 00:21:34,560 And, by the way, the main advocates of the bankruptcy 618 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,428 bill, people forget this. 619 00:21:36,428 --> 00:21:40,866 J.P. Morgan Chase and Goldman Sachs didn't care about that. 620 00:21:40,866 --> 00:21:43,402 The bankruptcy bill was lobbied through by the community bankers 621 00:21:43,402 --> 00:21:46,539 and the credit unions, which is why it was so hard to defeat 622 00:21:46,539 --> 00:21:48,073 because they have a lot of clout. 623 00:21:48,073 --> 00:21:52,411 But if you look at the issues, well let me just quote Paul 624 00:21:52,411 --> 00:21:55,981 Krugman, who was the best liberal -- 625 00:21:55,981 --> 00:21:57,483 >> No one's idea of a conservative. 626 00:21:57,483 --> 00:21:59,618 >> And a great commentator. 627 00:21:59,618 --> 00:22:03,389 Go back and read his columns in 2008 and he documented that she 628 00:22:03,389 --> 00:22:04,256 was the Barack Obama's left -- 629 00:22:04,256 --> 00:22:05,090 >> Left. 630 00:22:05,090 --> 00:22:06,025 >> -- on domestic policy. 631 00:22:06,025 --> 00:22:07,526 I do have some questions about her on foreign policy. 632 00:22:07,526 --> 00:22:08,260 >> Right. 633 00:22:08,260 --> 00:22:09,161 >> Also President Obama. 634 00:22:09,161 --> 00:22:10,596 I think the time has come. 635 00:22:10,596 --> 00:22:13,399 I like the president's initial notion to get out of Iraq and 636 00:22:13,399 --> 00:22:14,500 Afghanistan. 637 00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:16,635 He's getting pressure to go back in. 638 00:22:16,635 --> 00:22:18,137 There's nothing we can do there. 639 00:22:18,137 --> 00:22:19,805 The notion that we can, by military force, 640 00:22:19,805 --> 00:22:21,440 make coherent society -- 641 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:22,141 >> Yeah. 642 00:22:22,141 --> 00:22:24,143 >> -- for the people who are determined to hate each other. 643 00:22:24,143 --> 00:22:26,011 >> And you think her position on those issues is different than 644 00:22:26,011 --> 00:22:27,012 his? 645 00:22:27,012 --> 00:22:29,081 >> No, it's the same as his and I want them both to pull back. 646 00:22:29,081 --> 00:22:29,882 >> And that's your concern. 647 00:22:29,882 --> 00:22:33,419 Wasn't she also late to the party on gay marriage? 648 00:22:33,419 --> 00:22:34,653 >> In a way, Obama was. 649 00:22:34,653 --> 00:22:36,755 >> Yeah, he's not running again, last I looked. 650 00:22:36,755 --> 00:22:37,823 He's not running. 651 00:22:37,823 --> 00:22:40,593 >> No, but he's the one that they sort of hold up. 652 00:22:40,593 --> 00:22:42,528 She came to same-sex marriage -- no, 653 00:22:42,528 --> 00:22:45,831 actually she was before him as a New York senator. 654 00:22:45,831 --> 00:22:49,835 In fact, she came to same-sex marriage before her husband. 655 00:22:49,835 --> 00:22:50,736 >> Right. 656 00:22:50,736 --> 00:22:52,471 >> And, by the way, on same-sex marriage, 657 00:22:52,471 --> 00:22:54,773 she voted against -- and here's the deal. 658 00:22:54,773 --> 00:22:56,408 When it came to voting on same-sex marriage, 659 00:22:56,408 --> 00:23:00,946 she was not in the senate when the vote came on the Defense of 660 00:23:00,946 --> 00:23:01,914 Marriage Act. 661 00:23:01,914 --> 00:23:04,917 But after Massachusetts had a constitutional amendment to 662 00:23:04,917 --> 00:23:08,754 allow marriage, George W. Bush with Karl Rove's urging, 663 00:23:08,754 --> 00:23:11,490 trying to get Congress to adopt an amendment to the 664 00:23:11,490 --> 00:23:14,660 U.S. Constitution that would not only have banned gay marriage 665 00:23:14,660 --> 00:23:17,896 going forward, but would have retroactively abolished the 666 00:23:17,896 --> 00:23:19,832 marriages that had happened in Massachusetts, 667 00:23:19,832 --> 00:23:21,233 because you can do a Constitutional amendment. 668 00:23:21,233 --> 00:23:22,501 And she voted against that. 669 00:23:22,501 --> 00:23:23,302 >> She was opposed to that. 670 00:23:23,302 --> 00:23:25,437 >> A majority of the Senate, a majority of the House voted for 671 00:23:25,437 --> 00:23:26,639 it but they needed two-thirds. 672 00:23:26,639 --> 00:23:28,807 And so she consistently, when it became an issue, 673 00:23:28,807 --> 00:23:31,610 has voted the critical one, to allow it. 674 00:23:31,610 --> 00:23:33,178 Because it goes back to what I said before. 675 00:23:33,178 --> 00:23:35,781 I knew that once we got same-sex marriage anywhere, 676 00:23:35,781 --> 00:23:38,350 established a beachhead, we were going to win that argument 677 00:23:38,350 --> 00:23:40,252 because we had the reality done. 678 00:23:40,252 --> 00:23:42,855 But she was a consistent supporter to protect our right 679 00:23:42,855 --> 00:23:43,956 to do that. 680 00:23:43,956 --> 00:23:45,024 >> All right, so we have two minutes left. 681 00:23:45,024 --> 00:23:46,592 So she's the nominee. 682 00:23:46,592 --> 00:23:47,660 You're comfortable with that. 683 00:23:47,660 --> 00:23:49,762 Who is likely to be the Republican nominee and who would 684 00:23:49,762 --> 00:23:52,798 you like to see your party run against? 685 00:23:52,798 --> 00:23:53,899 >> Oh, Ted Cruz. 686 00:23:53,899 --> 00:23:54,733 [Laughter] 687 00:23:54,733 --> 00:23:56,335 >> No question about that? 688 00:23:56,335 --> 00:23:58,404 [Applause] 689 00:23:58,404 --> 00:24:00,339 >> I don't think you took half a second to answer that. 690 00:24:00,339 --> 00:24:03,876 >> No, I mean, I think I'm a pretty virtuous guy but I 691 00:24:03,876 --> 00:24:07,513 probably have not lived a good enough life for nature to award 692 00:24:07,513 --> 00:24:09,548 me, or God or whatever, with Ted Cruz. 693 00:24:09,548 --> 00:24:10,382 >> With Ted Cruz. 694 00:24:10,382 --> 00:24:13,552 Who do you think will be the nominee? 695 00:24:13,552 --> 00:24:15,421 >> Well, I worry about Scott Walker, you know, 696 00:24:15,421 --> 00:24:17,289 the "New York Times." And I was a little worried about the 697 00:24:17,289 --> 00:24:19,224 trivialization of journalism. 698 00:24:19,224 --> 00:24:21,460 The "New York Times" had a front page story about Scott Walker's 699 00:24:21,460 --> 00:24:24,663 being allergic to dogs and would that be an issue. 700 00:24:24,663 --> 00:24:27,132 And I said, no, why don't you write an article about the fact 701 00:24:27,132 --> 00:24:28,734 that he's allergic to labor unions -- 702 00:24:28,734 --> 00:24:29,601 >> Unions, right. 703 00:24:29,601 --> 00:24:31,003 >> -- and what they mean for working people. 704 00:24:31,003 --> 00:24:32,771 >> So Walker could be dangerous. 705 00:24:32,771 --> 00:24:35,240 He doesn't have the negatives, I think, that Jeb Bush has. 706 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,443 >> He's also run successfully in a blue state and survived a 707 00:24:37,443 --> 00:24:39,011 recall -- 708 00:24:39,011 --> 00:24:42,481 >> Right, although he won that blue state twice in 709 00:24:42,481 --> 00:24:43,282 non-presidential years -- 710 00:24:43,282 --> 00:24:43,982 >> He did. 711 00:24:43,982 --> 00:24:45,384 >> -- which were very good Republican years. 712 00:24:45,384 --> 00:24:48,120 But I'm hoping is, frankly one of the problems I write about 713 00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:50,389 this in the book is that we've had is with white working-class 714 00:24:50,389 --> 00:24:52,324 men who were falling away from the Democrats, 715 00:24:52,324 --> 00:24:54,593 I think because they are frustrated economically. 716 00:24:54,593 --> 00:24:58,931 I would hope that having the meany union buster in America 717 00:24:58,931 --> 00:25:01,800 who's warred on people who work for a living and boasts about 718 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,504 how he reduced the pay of janitors and now supported a 719 00:25:05,504 --> 00:25:08,207 right to work law which undercuts the teamsters and the 720 00:25:08,207 --> 00:25:09,241 construction workers. 721 00:25:09,241 --> 00:25:10,175 >> Right. 722 00:25:10,175 --> 00:25:14,913 >> That he would be -- we could get a better response from white 723 00:25:14,913 --> 00:25:16,482 working-class people than we've gotten in a while. 724 00:25:16,482 --> 00:25:18,183 >> So we're about to be out of time. 725 00:25:18,183 --> 00:25:21,153 You don't miss being in this old job of yours? 726 00:25:21,153 --> 00:25:22,955 >> Oh, I'm very glad to have done it but I just wore out 727 00:25:22,955 --> 00:25:24,056 emotionally. 728 00:25:24,056 --> 00:25:24,957 >> It's done. 729 00:25:24,957 --> 00:25:27,326 >> I got to the point I realized -- the phone rang and I 730 00:25:27,326 --> 00:25:28,193 flinched. 731 00:25:28,193 --> 00:25:29,028 >> Is that right? 732 00:25:29,028 --> 00:25:30,462 Well, the book is great. 733 00:25:30,462 --> 00:25:31,864 It's a reminder of all that you did. 734 00:25:31,864 --> 00:25:33,532 I hope you enjoy your life post Congress. 735 00:25:33,532 --> 00:25:34,700 Thanks so much for coming by. 736 00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:36,001 Congressman Barney Frank. 737 00:25:36,001 --> 00:25:40,339 [Applause] 738 00:25:40,339 --> 00:25:42,474 We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 739 00:25:42,474 --> 00:25:46,545 Visit our website at klru.org/overheard to find 740 00:25:46,545 --> 00:25:49,982 invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience and guests, 741 00:25:49,982 --> 00:25:53,519 and an archive of past episodes. 742 00:25:53,519 --> 00:25:55,087 >> I never pretended to be religious. 743 00:25:55,087 --> 00:25:58,190 When I took the, what they call the oath of office every two 744 00:25:58,190 --> 00:26:00,392 years, I didn't take it as an oath. 745 00:26:00,392 --> 00:26:01,927 I said I affirm. 746 00:26:01,927 --> 00:26:03,462 But in the House of Representatives all of us do it 747 00:26:03,462 --> 00:26:05,264 together so who knew what I was saying? 748 00:26:12,604 --> 00:26:15,474 >> Funding for "Overheard" with Evan Smith is provided in part 749 00:26:15,474 --> 00:26:19,611 by MFI Foundation, improving the quality of life within our 750 00:26:19,611 --> 00:26:21,180 community. 751 00:26:21,180 --> 00:26:23,682 And from the Texas Board of Legal Specialization, 752 00:26:23,682 --> 00:26:26,618 board certified attorneys in your community. 753 00:26:26,618 --> 00:26:29,655 Experienced, respected, and tested. 754 00:26:29,655 --> 00:26:33,692 Also by Hillco Partners, Texas Government Affairs consultancy 755 00:26:33,692 --> 00:26:36,528 and its global healthcare consulting business unit, 756 00:26:36,528 --> 00:26:38,030 Hillco Health. 757 00:26:38,030 --> 00:26:40,866 And by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation. 758 00:26:40,866 --> 00:26:42,334 And viewers like you. 759 00:26:42,334 --> 00:26:43,669 Thank you.