1 00:00:01,433 --> 00:00:02,600 - [Voiceover] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,533 is provided in part by MFI Foundation, 3 00:00:06,533 --> 00:00:10,066 improving the quality of life within our community. 4 00:00:10,066 --> 00:00:12,133 Also by Hillco Partners, 5 00:00:12,133 --> 00:00:14,800 a Texas government affairs consultancy, 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,466 and by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation. 7 00:00:18,466 --> 00:00:19,600 - I'm Evan Smith. 8 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:20,966 He's an iconic Emmy award winning 9 00:00:20,966 --> 00:00:23,800 and Academy Award nominated documentary filmmaker 10 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,566 whose credits include the Civil War, 11 00:00:26,566 --> 00:00:28,466 baseball, and jazz. 12 00:00:28,466 --> 00:00:31,666 His latest film for PBS is Jackie Robinson. 13 00:00:31,666 --> 00:00:32,766 He's Ken Burns. 14 00:00:32,766 --> 00:00:34,233 This is Overheard. 15 00:00:34,233 --> 00:00:36,000 Let's me honest. 16 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,433 This is about the ability to learn about 17 00:00:38,433 --> 00:00:41,200 the experience of not having been taught properly. 18 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,600 How would you avoid it? 19 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,966 What has befallen other nations in Africa? 20 00:00:44,966 --> 00:00:46,300 And you could say he made his own bed, 21 00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:48,066 but you cause him to sleep in it. 22 00:00:48,066 --> 00:00:51,166 You saw a problem and over time took it on. 23 00:00:51,166 --> 00:00:54,700 Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 24 00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:55,933 Are you gonna run for president? 25 00:00:55,933 --> 00:00:57,633 I think I just got a F from you actually. 26 00:00:57,633 --> 00:00:59,366 This is over. 27 00:00:59,366 --> 00:01:02,966 (applause) 28 00:01:02,966 --> 00:01:04,133 Ken Burns, welcome. 29 00:01:04,133 --> 00:01:04,933 - Thank you. 30 00:01:04,933 --> 00:01:05,733 - Honored to meet you, 31 00:01:05,733 --> 00:01:06,500 great to have you here. 32 00:01:06,500 --> 00:01:07,700 - It's my pleasure. 33 00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:09,333 - Congratulations on this wonderful project. 34 00:01:09,333 --> 00:01:10,766 - Thank you very much. 35 00:01:10,766 --> 00:01:13,000 I should say that's it's the great good fortune of 36 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,400 growing old and public television that I share 37 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,066 the authorship of this with Sarah Burns 38 00:01:19,066 --> 00:01:20,333 and David McMahon. 39 00:01:20,333 --> 00:01:22,466 Sarah Burns happens to be my oldest daughter. 40 00:01:22,466 --> 00:01:24,900 This is 41 00:01:24,900 --> 00:01:25,833 - Proud moment for a partent. 42 00:01:25,833 --> 00:01:27,200 - We made a film together, 43 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:28,433 the three of us 44 00:01:28,433 --> 00:01:29,866 called the Central Park Five. 45 00:01:29,866 --> 00:01:32,100 It came out a few years ago, and when that was done 46 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:35,533 we were plowing directly into Jackie Robinson, and so 47 00:01:35,533 --> 00:01:37,900 when you say that I've done it, 48 00:01:37,900 --> 00:01:40,500 I'm always aware on every film that is 49 00:01:40,500 --> 00:01:42,400 an unbelievable collaborative effort, but in this case 50 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,500 the coproducers and codirectors are 51 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:46,566 Sarah Burns and David McMahon. 52 00:01:46,566 --> 00:01:48,633 - Look at the generosity of that statement. 53 00:01:48,633 --> 00:01:50,833 - [Ken] Actually it has the extra added virtue of 54 00:01:50,833 --> 00:01:52,300 being true. 55 00:01:52,300 --> 00:01:54,800 - [Evan] Is this a race movie or a baseball movie? 56 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,633 - It's a good story about one of the most important 57 00:01:57,633 --> 00:02:00,733 people in all of American history. 58 00:02:00,733 --> 00:02:04,366 This is not the first progress in civil rights since 59 00:02:04,366 --> 00:02:07,066 the Civil War, but it's the beginning of the modern 60 00:02:07,066 --> 00:02:08,833 era of civil rights. 61 00:02:08,833 --> 00:02:10,100 - [Evan] It's a transition point 62 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:11,266 or a reflection point. - When Jackie Robinson 63 00:02:11,266 --> 00:02:14,733 walks out to first base on April 15, 1947, 64 00:02:14,733 --> 00:02:17,966 Martin Luther King is a junior at Morehouse College. 65 00:02:17,966 --> 00:02:20,366 Harry Truman hasn't integrated the military. 66 00:02:20,366 --> 00:02:22,633 Brown versus Board of Education hasn't happened. 67 00:02:22,633 --> 00:02:24,400 There haven't been organized sit ins. 68 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,433 Though Jackie did it as a teenager on his own, 69 00:02:26,433 --> 00:02:28,266 and Rosa Parks is a decade away from 70 00:02:28,266 --> 00:02:30,533 refusing to give up her seat on a Montgomery, Alabama 71 00:02:30,533 --> 00:02:32,733 bus, something Jackie had done three years earlier 72 00:02:32,733 --> 00:02:35,500 in 44 at Fort Hood in Texas. 73 00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:38,766 What you have in some ways is the beginning 74 00:02:38,766 --> 00:02:40,233 of the modern era. 75 00:02:40,233 --> 00:02:43,500 He's evolved from the A Philip Randolf of the Brotherhood 76 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:44,666 of Sleeping Car Ports, 77 00:02:44,666 --> 00:02:46,066 and WEB to boys 78 00:02:46,066 --> 00:02:49,066 and to a lesser extent some of the other leaders 79 00:02:49,066 --> 00:02:50,700 of the earliest 20th century. 80 00:02:50,700 --> 00:02:53,633 He's now plowing forward and permitting 81 00:02:53,633 --> 00:02:56,033 these other manifestations to take place. 82 00:02:56,033 --> 00:02:59,333 This is first of all a great story in sports. 83 00:02:59,333 --> 00:03:01,066 He is the most imporant person 84 00:03:01,066 --> 00:03:02,933 in the history of baseball, our national pastime. 85 00:03:02,933 --> 00:03:05,400 He's not the best player arguably, but he is 86 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,333 the most important, and then it is a great American story 87 00:03:08,333 --> 00:03:11,333 because it deals with our central subtheme, 88 00:03:11,333 --> 00:03:13,633 after you deal with the nature of freedom, 89 00:03:13,633 --> 00:03:16,200 human freedom, the tension between what I want 90 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,333 and our collective needs together, 91 00:03:18,333 --> 00:03:20,300 then race is the central theme, 92 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:22,933 and I think it's a much larger human story about a person 93 00:03:22,933 --> 00:03:25,666 who takes on his shoulders this enormous burden, 94 00:03:25,666 --> 00:03:29,200 turning the other cheek, and so he was a central part 95 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,700 of our baseball series that came out in 94 96 00:03:31,700 --> 00:03:34,400 in almost every episode and we thought we done him, 97 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,833 but the chance to do a stand alone prompted by his widow 98 00:03:37,833 --> 00:03:40,100 Rachel who's 93, with all of her marbles 99 00:03:40,100 --> 00:03:43,300 and some of mine, and I want them back. 100 00:03:43,300 --> 00:03:44,066 (laughter) 101 00:03:44,066 --> 00:03:45,266 I want them back. 102 00:03:45,266 --> 00:03:48,866 We were able to do a deeper, deeper dive, 103 00:03:48,866 --> 00:03:50,266 and to help shed, 104 00:03:50,266 --> 00:03:52,066 you know, what happens when you have a mythological 105 00:03:52,066 --> 00:03:54,233 figure is that mythology gets in the way of really 106 00:03:54,233 --> 00:03:55,433 understanding. 107 00:03:55,433 --> 00:03:57,466 The barnacles of sentimentality across 108 00:03:57,466 --> 00:03:59,366 - We think we know Jackie Robinson as we 109 00:03:59,366 --> 00:04:01,000 think we know many of the subjects 110 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,400 - Look at George Washington 111 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,866 who we say wooden teeth, never had wooden teeth. 112 00:04:04,866 --> 00:04:08,133 Threw a dollar coin across the Petomic, couldn't happen. 113 00:04:08,133 --> 00:04:09,700 Never told a lie. 114 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:10,766 Everybody lies. 115 00:04:10,766 --> 00:04:11,833 Chopped down a cherry tree. 116 00:04:11,833 --> 00:04:13,033 None of this happens. 117 00:04:13,033 --> 00:04:14,633 This was invented in the after math 118 00:04:14,633 --> 00:04:17,233 to help glorify him and make him palatable to schools. 119 00:04:17,233 --> 00:04:18,633 - [Evan] What about Jackie Robinson? 120 00:04:18,633 --> 00:04:20,533 I'm interested in this because I did think to myself 121 00:04:20,533 --> 00:04:22,833 and looking at this film 122 00:04:22,833 --> 00:04:24,066 there was a lot that I didn't know. 123 00:04:24,066 --> 00:04:26,166 There was a lot about him as a personality 124 00:04:26,166 --> 00:04:27,833 and his disposition toward the world 125 00:04:27,833 --> 00:04:29,400 that I don't know that I knew or that 126 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,500 I hadn't been told or maybe I had been told, 127 00:04:31,500 --> 00:04:34,733 but idealized it or romantisized it. 128 00:04:34,733 --> 00:04:35,833 - That's exactly right. 129 00:04:35,833 --> 00:04:37,533 - What do you think we don't know? 130 00:04:37,533 --> 00:04:40,100 And why don't we know it about Jackie Robinson? 131 00:04:40,100 --> 00:04:42,666 - I know why we don't know it first of all, 132 00:04:42,666 --> 00:04:45,333 which is we live in a media culture which we are 133 00:04:45,333 --> 00:04:47,300 buried in a tsunami of informaiton 134 00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:48,866 so what tends to happen - Some of even true. 135 00:04:48,866 --> 00:04:50,233 - A few things are true, 136 00:04:50,233 --> 00:04:53,000 and what we have is a kind of superficial 137 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,000 conventional wisdom that then accrues, 138 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,933 I think I know who Jackie Robinson is. 139 00:04:56,933 --> 00:04:58,433 He turned the other cheek for three years, 140 00:04:58,433 --> 00:04:59,400 all this stuff. 141 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:00,866 Maybe know a little bit more, 142 00:05:00,866 --> 00:05:03,500 Branch Ricky is God who bestows points like Michael 143 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:05,433 Angelo's finger and bestows his son. 144 00:05:05,433 --> 00:05:08,166 This real story is so much more complicated that 145 00:05:08,166 --> 00:05:10,766 everything changes, and what's so nice is that the 146 00:05:10,766 --> 00:05:13,133 complexity doesn't diminish him, 147 00:05:13,133 --> 00:05:16,300 and this isn't revisionism where the pendulum swings to 148 00:05:16,300 --> 00:05:17,533 where we're not throwing him out 149 00:05:17,533 --> 00:05:18,800 because he's. 150 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,066 - We understand he's a demential human being. 151 00:05:21,066 --> 00:05:24,500 This is a multi-generational portrait of an African American 152 00:05:24,500 --> 00:05:26,533 family, which you don't get very often. 153 00:05:26,533 --> 00:05:28,933 This is an extraordinary love story between 154 00:05:28,933 --> 00:05:30,966 two people who loved each other but not without 155 00:05:30,966 --> 00:05:32,866 it's tensions and it's flash points. 156 00:05:32,866 --> 00:05:34,700 There's a wonderful story, and she's there 157 00:05:34,700 --> 00:05:37,466 to narrate us through incredibly difficult, incredibly 158 00:05:37,466 --> 00:05:39,166 pointy and incredibly moving, 159 00:05:39,166 --> 00:05:41,500 and incredibly dramatic moments not only her 160 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:44,700 and their life, but in the history of the United States 161 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:47,966 and so what happens is it permits us to at every juncture 162 00:05:47,966 --> 00:05:51,533 to say, "The familiar tropes of the old story, 163 00:05:51,533 --> 00:05:54,333 "the children's books don't work here." 164 00:05:54,333 --> 00:05:56,633 What we're suggesting is something great. 165 00:05:56,633 --> 00:05:57,800 I'll give you an example, 166 00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,366 not with Jackie, but in a larger sense 167 00:05:59,366 --> 00:06:01,666 which is we lament that there are no heroes today, 168 00:06:01,666 --> 00:06:04,133 and that's because in that same superficial conventional 169 00:06:04,133 --> 00:06:06,800 media that we have, conventional wisdom 170 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,566 is that we think heroes are perfect, 171 00:06:09,566 --> 00:06:13,333 and the greeks who invented the notion of heroism told us 172 00:06:13,333 --> 00:06:16,566 thousands of years ago that heroism isn't perfection, 173 00:06:16,566 --> 00:06:18,566 it's in fact a very delicate negotiation, 174 00:06:18,566 --> 00:06:21,400 sometimes a war between a person's obvious strengths 175 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,533 and their not so obvious, but perhaps equal weaknesses, 176 00:06:24,533 --> 00:06:26,833 and it is that negotiation and that tension 177 00:06:26,833 --> 00:06:29,966 that sometimes that war that defines heroism. 178 00:06:29,966 --> 00:06:33,566 What happens is we have the unfortunate tendency 179 00:06:33,566 --> 00:06:35,700 in a media culture to throw somebody out when 180 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:39,433 we find the slightest bit of lack of perfection 181 00:06:39,433 --> 00:06:42,033 and say, we so sorry we have no heroes. 182 00:06:42,033 --> 00:06:43,266 There are thousands of 183 00:06:43,266 --> 00:06:45,400 heroes, because it's how you negotiate with 184 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,933 the bad stuff, both your own flaws 185 00:06:47,933 --> 00:06:50,400 as well as the stuff that happens to you 186 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:51,766 that defines heroism. 187 00:06:51,766 --> 00:06:53,433 - I would say that's absolutely true, 188 00:06:53,433 --> 00:06:55,333 but another thing that happens is that we carve away 189 00:06:55,333 --> 00:06:57,100 the parts that we don't wanna see. 190 00:06:57,100 --> 00:06:58,266 - [Ken] That's exactly right. 191 00:06:58,266 --> 00:06:59,400 - So that when we present Jackie Robinson, 192 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,533 the image that comes to my mind's eye 193 00:07:01,533 --> 00:07:05,433 is of him sliding and then you quickly go to a shot 194 00:07:05,433 --> 00:07:07,900 of him with Branch Ricky or him with other 195 00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:11,000 white executives of baseball at the time, 196 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,200 and the heroism of his having been the first. 197 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,433 He's kind of the beginning, the middle, 198 00:07:15,433 --> 00:07:16,833 and the end of the story. 199 00:07:16,833 --> 00:07:18,933 One of the things I loved most about this movie 200 00:07:18,933 --> 00:07:21,800 was the juxtaposition of Jackie Robinson later 201 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,000 in life with Muhammad Ali an with Jim Brown, 202 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,866 and the idea that somehow Jackie Robinson, 203 00:07:26,866 --> 00:07:28,400 who had been the first, 204 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,400 without whom none of this other stuff would have happened. 205 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,300 Jackie Robinson is now being put in the position of 206 00:07:32,300 --> 00:07:34,566 being too much of an accommodationist 207 00:07:34,566 --> 00:07:35,966 - An uncle Tom. 208 00:07:35,966 --> 00:07:38,100 - And Muhammad Ali and Jim Brown are representing 209 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:39,500 the militancy of the time, 210 00:07:39,500 --> 00:07:42,100 and Jackie Robinson is being criticized for not being 211 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:44,900 sufficiently an advocate for this position. 212 00:07:44,900 --> 00:07:46,366 - And he had been the most radical 213 00:07:46,366 --> 00:07:47,666 - How could you have been more radical? 214 00:07:47,666 --> 00:07:49,033 - Exactly. 215 00:07:49,033 --> 00:07:51,200 There's a wonderful historian, Yura Williams, 216 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,000 who says the definition in the 1940s 217 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,800 of black masculinity is Jackie Robinson, 218 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,333 but by the 1960s that has tired, 219 00:08:00,333 --> 00:08:03,533 and so you have a Muhammad Ali and a Jim Brown, 220 00:08:03,533 --> 00:08:07,300 and Carlos Smith at the Olympics. 221 00:08:07,300 --> 00:08:08,866 - At the olympics, right, 222 00:08:08,866 --> 00:08:10,000 fist in the air. - That becomes 223 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,600 and some of the more radical folks, 224 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,233 at the same time our laws are being transformed 225 00:08:14,233 --> 00:08:17,666 in Civil Rights acts by Lyndon Johnson. 226 00:08:17,666 --> 00:08:19,900 There's a kind of impatience that it's not really working, 227 00:08:19,900 --> 00:08:22,300 and it's not happening fast enough. 228 00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:24,300 There are a lot of people who migrate to a more 229 00:08:24,300 --> 00:08:26,933 violent posture, a more militant posture, 230 00:08:26,933 --> 00:08:29,300 and so we're trying to understand it, 231 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:31,566 and Jackie got caught up in that, just as Dr. King did. 232 00:08:31,566 --> 00:08:34,400 He was often there's some very pointed 233 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,433 comments by Malcolm X talking about passive ministers 234 00:08:38,433 --> 00:08:40,500 and there can be only one passive minister that 235 00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:41,500 he's thinking about. - But Jackie 236 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:43,733 Robinson did not shrink. 237 00:08:43,733 --> 00:08:45,000 What I loved about him, 238 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,500 the first part I loved was the juxtaposition. 239 00:08:46,500 --> 00:08:48,233 The second part that I loved was Jackie Robinson basically 240 00:08:48,233 --> 00:08:49,733 going back at these guys. 241 00:08:49,733 --> 00:08:51,233 You're wrong here. 242 00:08:51,233 --> 00:08:53,366 He wrote a column, newspaper column, 243 00:08:53,366 --> 00:08:55,000 I remember once specifically that you cited 244 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,233 in which he took Malcolm X on directly. 245 00:08:57,233 --> 00:09:00,933 - Yes, but also criticized the NAACP 246 00:09:00,933 --> 00:09:03,000 for not advancing younger leaders more quickly. 247 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:04,600 What you have is somebody, 248 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,066 this is some ways a existential story. 249 00:09:07,066 --> 00:09:08,533 A lot of people talk the talk. 250 00:09:08,533 --> 00:09:10,000 Do you walk the walk? 251 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,900 And Jackie Robinson got up everyday 252 00:09:11,900 --> 00:09:14,333 to try to improve the lives of other people 253 00:09:14,333 --> 00:09:17,433 and one of the stories that we can sort of disengage 254 00:09:17,433 --> 00:09:19,133 ourselves from because it's too convenient 255 00:09:19,133 --> 00:09:21,366 and it's the subject of children's books and statues is 256 00:09:21,366 --> 00:09:23,466 the famous saying where in that first season, 257 00:09:23,466 --> 00:09:26,233 1947, they have gone to Crosley Field, 258 00:09:26,233 --> 00:09:27,800 incredibly racist. 259 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,166 The tuperative comments are being hurled at Jackie, 260 00:09:30,166 --> 00:09:32,800 and Pee Wee Rease walks over and puts his 261 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:34,066 arm around him. 262 00:09:34,066 --> 00:09:35,033 That's one of the great moments in the mythology 263 00:09:35,033 --> 00:09:36,000 of Jackie Robinson. 264 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,400 It didn't happen. 265 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:38,533 - Another thing that we 266 00:09:38,533 --> 00:09:40,400 - There's a statue outside of the 267 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,400 Great American Ballpark in Cincinnati 268 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:43,600 that shows this. 269 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:44,600 There's children's books about this. 270 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:45,833 But it didn't happen. 271 00:09:45,833 --> 00:09:48,300 It's not in Jackie's autobiography. 272 00:09:48,300 --> 00:09:49,566 It's not in the white press. 273 00:09:49,566 --> 00:09:50,800 It's not in the black press which would have 274 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,733 done 15 related articles. 275 00:09:52,733 --> 00:09:54,100 Also that first year Jackie played first 276 00:09:54,100 --> 00:09:55,766 and Pee Wee is at short. 277 00:09:55,766 --> 00:09:57,666 You would have to go across the diamond 278 00:09:57,666 --> 00:09:59,666 which never happens before. 279 00:09:59,666 --> 00:10:02,300 Maybe later years, and what happened is they probably 280 00:10:02,300 --> 00:10:04,333 did, after many years they were together 281 00:10:04,333 --> 00:10:05,600 and they threw their arm around her, 282 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,133 had a conversation, 283 00:10:07,133 --> 00:10:09,533 and that migrated back in time to that first season, because 284 00:10:09,533 --> 00:10:11,766 no pun intended, we white people 285 00:10:11,766 --> 00:10:13,666 wanted to have skin in the game. 286 00:10:13,666 --> 00:10:15,933 We wanted to feel like we were good 287 00:10:15,933 --> 00:10:19,700 and that we were capable of participating this 288 00:10:19,700 --> 00:10:20,700 and supporting it. 289 00:10:20,700 --> 00:10:22,900 Another thing is we always invest 290 00:10:22,900 --> 00:10:25,433 Branch Ricky with much more authorship of this moment 291 00:10:25,433 --> 00:10:27,166 than before, as if he said 292 00:10:27,166 --> 00:10:29,233 my conscience is stirring, 293 00:10:29,233 --> 00:10:30,900 and we pointed out in our baseball series that 294 00:10:30,900 --> 00:10:33,200 he was also a good businessman, and he knew he could 295 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:34,466 put African American seats, 296 00:10:34,466 --> 00:10:36,133 fill African American 297 00:10:36,133 --> 00:10:37,433 - Seats in the stadiums. 298 00:10:37,433 --> 00:10:38,700 - In Ebbet's Field, but 299 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:40,666 and it's true he had this great conscience. 300 00:10:40,666 --> 00:10:42,766 He was a very, very amazing human being, 301 00:10:42,766 --> 00:10:44,666 but the African American press have been pushing 302 00:10:44,666 --> 00:10:46,066 for this for decades, 303 00:10:46,066 --> 00:10:49,933 so had the left wing press in the United States 304 00:10:49,933 --> 00:10:51,366 including the communist press. 305 00:10:51,366 --> 00:10:52,566 Oh, I don't wanna hear about the Communist press. 306 00:10:52,566 --> 00:10:54,200 The Daily Worker, right. 307 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,766 So had the left leaning 308 00:10:56,766 --> 00:10:58,033 Republican, 309 00:10:58,033 --> 00:11:00,433 I have not lost my mind, left leaning 310 00:11:00,433 --> 00:11:04,900 Republican mayor of New York City, Firlia Auglaria. 311 00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:07,400 There were state commissions that were investigating 312 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,266 discriminatory hiring practices. 313 00:11:09,266 --> 00:11:10,833 There was lots of pressure on Branch Ricky, 314 00:11:10,833 --> 00:11:14,366 and he had planned not to have one single son 315 00:11:14,366 --> 00:11:16,066 that he would bestow, 316 00:11:16,066 --> 00:11:17,966 but to bring up a handful of African Americans, 317 00:11:17,966 --> 00:11:19,900 but because of all this pressure and this failure, 318 00:11:19,900 --> 00:11:22,800 his anxiety that maybe he was gonna lose control 319 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,800 of the moment, he hears about Jackie 320 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,833 from an African American reporter who 321 00:11:26,833 --> 00:11:29,466 he's in touch with who had a good try out, 322 00:11:29,466 --> 00:11:31,366 and he said, "Oh yes I remember him. 323 00:11:31,366 --> 00:11:32,600 "He's the great football star, and the guy 324 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,666 "you refuse to give up is at Fort Hood," 325 00:11:34,666 --> 00:11:36,066 and blah blah blah. 326 00:11:36,066 --> 00:11:39,600 It all plows accidentially as well as on purpose 327 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,466 towards Jackie, and not this sense that it was all 328 00:11:42,466 --> 00:11:43,833 set out to be. 329 00:11:43,833 --> 00:11:46,066 Angels arrived, annouced the virgin birth, 330 00:11:46,066 --> 00:11:47,800 this happened (laughter) 331 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,366 - It's a lot messier than it seems. 332 00:11:49,366 --> 00:11:51,833 - Here's the other thing that is perhaps even more important 333 00:11:51,833 --> 00:11:54,900 as you get to know how competitive, how fiercely competitive 334 00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:57,200 Jackie is, you begin to understand the the turning 335 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,500 of the other cheek is unbelievably 336 00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:01,766 it's a tough thing to do. 337 00:12:01,766 --> 00:12:03,666 He's gonna turn the other cheek for three years, 338 00:12:03,666 --> 00:12:06,200 one in the minors and two in the majors 339 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,266 is not like his character. 340 00:12:08,266 --> 00:12:11,466 He's actually going against who he is 341 00:12:11,466 --> 00:12:14,233 in order to make sure that this experiment succeeds. 342 00:12:14,233 --> 00:12:15,166 - Amazing. 343 00:12:15,166 --> 00:12:16,366 - It's one of the great stories. 344 00:12:16,366 --> 00:12:17,600 - [Evan] One of the things I loved also, 345 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:18,900 another part of this that I really enjoyed 346 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:21,100 was the story that Rachel Robinson tells. 347 00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:23,633 They get married and instead of going on a traditional 348 00:12:23,633 --> 00:12:25,533 honeymoon, the honeymoon is we're gonna go 349 00:12:25,533 --> 00:12:26,733 to spring training. 350 00:12:26,733 --> 00:12:29,633 They get on, they attempt to get on 351 00:12:29,633 --> 00:12:30,866 the plane. - A series of planes 352 00:12:30,866 --> 00:12:33,500 that are gonna take them from Los Angeles 353 00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:35,333 to Florida for the spring training. 354 00:12:35,333 --> 00:12:38,366 He's joining the Royals which is the triple A 355 00:12:38,366 --> 00:12:40,266 baseball team of the Dodgers, 356 00:12:40,266 --> 00:12:42,533 and Ricky's picked it so he can go and be 357 00:12:42,533 --> 00:12:45,600 in Montreal where it's a better environment for him, 358 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,500 but they got spring training in Florida 359 00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:48,733 which is not the greatest. 360 00:12:48,733 --> 00:12:50,733 - They attempt to board planes with the team 361 00:12:50,733 --> 00:12:55,066 and they're bunked for white travelers 362 00:12:55,066 --> 00:12:58,000 once, twice, and eventually 363 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,033 they have to ride a bus because they cannot get a flight. 364 00:13:02,033 --> 00:13:04,000 They will not get a flight. 365 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,400 Rachel Robinson in fact tells this story. 366 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:06,300 She's sort of distraught. 367 00:13:06,300 --> 00:13:07,533 This is my honeymoon, this 368 00:13:07,533 --> 00:13:08,933 her moment. - Her mother in law comes 369 00:13:08,933 --> 00:13:10,566 as they're about to leave Los Angeles and brings 370 00:13:10,566 --> 00:13:12,533 them a shoe box full of fried chicken, 371 00:13:12,533 --> 00:13:15,966 and she's embarrassed, but Mallie Robinson, Jackie's mother 372 00:13:15,966 --> 00:13:17,733 knows of the world. 373 00:13:17,733 --> 00:13:21,800 She's brought him from Jim Crow, Southern Georgia, 374 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,933 K Row Georgia where African Americans are being 375 00:13:23,933 --> 00:13:26,500 lidged all the time, and guests in Pasadena 376 00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:28,400 where they have to deal with a new form of 377 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,366 sometimes overt, sometimes covert racism. 378 00:13:31,366 --> 00:13:34,800 She understands and Rachel has never even seen 379 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,000 bathrooms more colored and so she goes into the white 380 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,766 ladies bathroom to sort of compose herself, 381 00:13:39,766 --> 00:13:41,900 and as she says, do what she had to do, 382 00:13:41,900 --> 00:13:43,133 and then walk out and all these women 383 00:13:43,133 --> 00:13:45,000 are looking at her, but there's this moment of 384 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,166 unbelievable shame and then Rachel comes 385 00:13:47,166 --> 00:13:50,166 back and says fiercely, "The fried chicken was great." 386 00:13:50,166 --> 00:13:52,633 They started off with embarrassment at 387 00:13:52,633 --> 00:13:54,366 this gesture from the older generation, 388 00:13:54,366 --> 00:13:57,000 and suddenly understood that the accommodation 389 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,666 was gonna have to be a part of their lives yet again. 390 00:14:00,666 --> 00:14:01,966 - I asked you if this was a movie about baseball 391 00:14:01,966 --> 00:14:03,400 or race. 392 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,900 Really the better question is, is it a movie about 393 00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:07,766 Jackie or is it a movie about Rachel, 394 00:14:07,766 --> 00:14:10,366 because on some levels it really is Rachel's story, 395 00:14:10,366 --> 00:14:12,466 and as you say, Rachel is in the movie, 396 00:14:12,466 --> 00:14:15,100 present, narrating, telling stories, 397 00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:16,566 and she was in fact the one 398 00:14:16,566 --> 00:14:19,433 going back to the decision to do the story 399 00:14:19,433 --> 00:14:20,600 to begin with. - She called me up 400 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,500 after the baseball series and just lobbied 401 00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:23,633 for an awfully long time, 402 00:14:23,633 --> 00:14:25,100 and finally I saw some daylight, 403 00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:26,666 and I said, before that, I said, "Rachel, if you find 404 00:14:26,666 --> 00:14:28,866 "somebody else to do it, he deserves a stand alone, 405 00:14:28,866 --> 00:14:30,133 "but do it." 406 00:14:30,133 --> 00:14:30,933 She says, "No, no, no, I'm waiting for you." 407 00:14:30,933 --> 00:14:33,600 - Her dignity and her, 408 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,900 her dignity in this movie on camera is remarkable. 409 00:14:35,900 --> 00:14:38,266 - We had the opportunity as you did yesterday 410 00:14:38,266 --> 00:14:39,666 to interview not only the president, 411 00:14:39,666 --> 00:14:43,000 but the first lady as well and these are four 412 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,833 people, hurdling through space and time, 413 00:14:44,833 --> 00:14:48,200 two couples and they're very similar. 414 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,700 Jackie is walking through a door that no one has 415 00:14:51,700 --> 00:14:54,633 walked through before and he probably can't 416 00:14:54,633 --> 00:14:58,633 do it without her, most definitely can't do it without her, 417 00:14:58,633 --> 00:14:59,900 and the president walked through the door 418 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:01,666 no one had ever walked through before 419 00:15:01,666 --> 00:15:03,833 as an African American, and he probably couldn't 420 00:15:03,833 --> 00:15:05,100 do it without Michelle, 421 00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:06,833 and it's interesting to hear Jackie's there 422 00:15:06,833 --> 00:15:10,100 and voice and spirit and Rachel 423 00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:12,366 is resurrecting him, but they're both there 424 00:15:12,366 --> 00:15:14,833 talking about what you need to come home 425 00:15:14,833 --> 00:15:16,500 when the opprobrium of the world has been 426 00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:20,133 heaped on you, not because of the content of your 427 00:15:20,133 --> 00:15:22,033 character, but because of the color of your skin, 428 00:15:22,033 --> 00:15:24,300 and the president says so movingly, it's so great to 429 00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:26,366 come home to find someone who loves you 430 00:15:26,366 --> 00:15:29,000 and has your back, which is exactly what Rachel is saying 431 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,533 and you suddenly realize this an old trope 432 00:15:31,533 --> 00:15:32,633 in American history. 433 00:15:32,633 --> 00:15:34,833 - We haven't mvoed an inch. 434 00:15:34,833 --> 00:15:37,900 - Well we have because I got to interview 435 00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:39,833 an African American president and first lady 436 00:15:39,833 --> 00:15:42,333 about the first baseball player. 437 00:15:42,333 --> 00:15:44,733 - Right but at the same time, the same 438 00:15:44,733 --> 00:15:46,700 thing about the president was said about Jackie Robinson. 439 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:48,300 Maybe he's not black enough. 440 00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:49,833 - Our film 441 00:15:49,833 --> 00:15:53,500 is got issues of the confederate flag and integrated 442 00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:56,766 swimming pools and driving while black 443 00:15:56,766 --> 00:15:58,233 and stop and frisk, and all sorts of stuff. 444 00:15:58,233 --> 00:16:01,633 The tropes that are going on now, so you do feel 445 00:16:01,633 --> 00:16:04,800 the pessimist could feel that the more things change 446 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,200 the more they stay the same, but to me 447 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,966 what I've understood from doing this for 40 years is 448 00:16:09,966 --> 00:16:12,933 from Ecclesiastes, "What has been will be again. 449 00:16:12,933 --> 00:16:14,633 "What has been done will be done again. 450 00:16:14,633 --> 00:16:16,166 "There's nothing new under the sun." 451 00:16:16,166 --> 00:16:17,600 There's no cycles of history. 452 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,600 We're not condemned to repeat what we don't remember, 453 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,033 that's very convenient, 454 00:16:21,033 --> 00:16:24,633 but human nature repeats itself and superimposes itself 455 00:16:24,633 --> 00:16:28,400 over the seemingly random chaos events and we can perceive 456 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,100 patterns and themes. 457 00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:32,533 Mark Twain is supposed to have said that history 458 00:16:32,533 --> 00:16:34,166 doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. 459 00:16:34,166 --> 00:16:37,100 My job is to listen to those rhymes 460 00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:38,533 and to try to hear somethings. 461 00:16:38,533 --> 00:16:41,333 I think we can, the pessimist can say, 462 00:16:41,333 --> 00:16:43,433 this is a glass half empty, 463 00:16:43,433 --> 00:16:45,333 but at the same time you can understand that progress 464 00:16:45,333 --> 00:16:46,600 has been made. 465 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,766 What you can't do is let up on the accelerator. 466 00:16:48,766 --> 00:16:50,200 What you can't do, and this is what Jackie understood, 467 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,166 that life is measured only by the way it affects other 468 00:16:54,166 --> 00:16:55,466 people's lives. 469 00:16:55,466 --> 00:16:57,233 It says on his gravestone, and that is what 470 00:16:57,233 --> 00:16:59,166 this is about, that's why it's an existential story. 471 00:16:59,166 --> 00:17:02,066 You get every morning to improve the lives of others 472 00:17:02,066 --> 00:17:04,200 you are walking the walk. 473 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,466 - You are the Ecclesiastes of documentary filmmakers 474 00:17:06,466 --> 00:17:08,500 in the sense that the way you've approached 475 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:10,833 filmmaking over time, different films, 476 00:17:10,833 --> 00:17:13,833 but what has always been is still the case. 477 00:17:13,833 --> 00:17:16,600 You tackle a subject thoroughly, 478 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,833 you tend to tackle institutions which I think really hard, 479 00:17:20,833 --> 00:17:23,233 how do you make a nine episode series 480 00:17:23,233 --> 00:17:24,666 about the Civil War 481 00:17:24,666 --> 00:17:27,266 or a nine episode or 10 episode series about baseball. 482 00:17:27,266 --> 00:17:29,566 These are institutions that are so large and so difficult 483 00:17:29,566 --> 00:17:31,933 to get your arms around, but your approach has 484 00:17:31,933 --> 00:17:34,366 been similar, and I think there's something comforting 485 00:17:34,366 --> 00:17:38,133 about a Ken Burns project, because you know going into it 486 00:17:38,133 --> 00:17:40,100 that there are gonna be certain standards, and certain 487 00:17:40,100 --> 00:17:44,066 visual cues and audio cues, and you know what you're getting 488 00:17:44,066 --> 00:17:45,700 even though the subject is different. 489 00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:47,933 That has been a deliberate decision on your part. 490 00:17:47,933 --> 00:17:48,866 - It has been deliberate. 491 00:17:48,866 --> 00:17:50,266 I mean style is, you could say, 492 00:17:50,266 --> 00:17:53,033 is just the authentic application of techniques. 493 00:17:53,033 --> 00:17:55,033 All craftsmen, all artists have lots of techniques 494 00:17:55,033 --> 00:17:57,366 at their disposal, but if you 495 00:17:57,366 --> 00:17:58,866 - But it evolves. 496 00:17:58,866 --> 00:18:01,533 - And it evolves, but if it's done organically, 497 00:18:01,533 --> 00:18:03,233 honorably, then people recognize. 498 00:18:03,233 --> 00:18:04,900 This is why you can go into a gallery 499 00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:06,833 and there are all paintings. 500 00:18:06,833 --> 00:18:07,766 You go, "Oh, man. 501 00:18:07,766 --> 00:18:08,866 "I get it, that's all De Gah." 502 00:18:08,866 --> 00:18:11,033 I've tried to live that way, 503 00:18:11,033 --> 00:18:13,800 to not let technology be a tail that wags the dog 504 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,800 but rather control the technology to serve something 505 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,666 that's not glamorous, but to serve a complicated story 506 00:18:19,666 --> 00:18:22,200 and we're always not trying to tell you 507 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:23,566 what we already know, 508 00:18:23,566 --> 00:18:25,233 as some documentary filmmakers do, 509 00:18:25,233 --> 00:18:27,100 and the last time I checked that's called homework, 510 00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:29,933 but share with you our process of discovery, 511 00:18:29,933 --> 00:18:31,066 and that's huge. 512 00:18:31,066 --> 00:18:34,266 Each film is saying who are we? 513 00:18:34,266 --> 00:18:36,600 Who are these strange and complicated people 514 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,200 who like to call themselves Americans? 515 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,500 What does an investigation of the past tell 516 00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:42,100 us about not only where we were but where we are 517 00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:44,366 and where we may be going. 518 00:18:44,366 --> 00:18:46,766 History, if you know it, it's a kind of armor, 519 00:18:46,766 --> 00:18:48,066 and I'll give you one simple, 520 00:18:48,066 --> 00:18:49,666 very quick example. 521 00:18:49,666 --> 00:18:52,133 When the '08, '09 meltdown happened, 522 00:18:52,133 --> 00:18:54,166 friends of mine, even in the financial industry said, 523 00:18:54,166 --> 00:18:55,233 "This is like the depression." 524 00:18:55,233 --> 00:18:56,466 I said, "No, it's not." 525 00:18:56,466 --> 00:18:58,533 In the depression, in some cities, the animals 526 00:18:58,533 --> 00:19:01,266 in the zoo were shot and the meat was distributed 527 00:19:01,266 --> 00:19:02,633 to the poor. 528 00:19:02,633 --> 00:19:04,233 When that happens I'll admit we're in a depression, 529 00:19:04,233 --> 00:19:06,966 and then all of a sudden that gives you a kind of 530 00:19:06,966 --> 00:19:08,866 perspective to sort of deal with things 531 00:19:08,866 --> 00:19:10,366 on a different level. 532 00:19:10,366 --> 00:19:12,466 You don't have to chicken little, the sky is falling, 533 00:19:12,466 --> 00:19:15,233 and you can also say let's take this seriously 534 00:19:15,233 --> 00:19:16,900 but let's not over do it. 535 00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:18,333 Let's not invest it. 536 00:19:18,333 --> 00:19:20,033 - We tend to romanticize in the positive direction 537 00:19:20,033 --> 00:19:21,966 and we also romanticize in the negative direction. 538 00:19:21,966 --> 00:19:23,233 It's never as good as it seems to me 539 00:19:23,233 --> 00:19:24,400 and never as bad. 540 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,300 If I went back and looked, as I understand 541 00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:29,033 the story, your first film was a documentary 542 00:19:29,033 --> 00:19:30,400 you made in Anarbor. 543 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,066 Is that right? 544 00:19:31,066 --> 00:19:32,200 - No, everybody 545 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:33,466 - Was that a film? 546 00:19:33,466 --> 00:19:35,000 - No, my dad gave me a camera and I went out 547 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,433 and shot different things there. 548 00:19:37,433 --> 00:19:39,133 My first film that I signed 549 00:19:39,133 --> 00:19:43,433 is one that is the first one for PBS on the Brooklyn Bridge. 550 00:19:43,433 --> 00:19:45,000 That was the film. - Based on the McCaloh book. 551 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:48,800 - The construction, he had done a book on 552 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,033 the construction of it and half the film is about 553 00:19:50,033 --> 00:19:51,366 the construction the other half was 554 00:19:51,366 --> 00:19:53,066 - More of your project than 555 00:19:53,066 --> 00:19:55,133 - Yeah, and then I brought David to be the narrator, 556 00:19:55,133 --> 00:19:57,000 because he knew the story as well as any 557 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,433 and that was taboo in those days. 558 00:19:58,433 --> 00:20:00,666 Your narrator was Alexander Scorbi or 559 00:20:00,666 --> 00:20:03,733 Orsten Wells, and you got. 560 00:20:03,733 --> 00:20:05,166 I thought why? 561 00:20:05,166 --> 00:20:06,533 Why would you groom somebody who understood the story? 562 00:20:06,533 --> 00:20:08,000 - If I went back and looked at Brooklyn bridge 563 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,266 or I went back and looked even before that at the stuff 564 00:20:09,266 --> 00:20:10,866 that you were shooting more casually back in 565 00:20:10,866 --> 00:20:12,733 Anarbor, would I see in those productions 566 00:20:12,733 --> 00:20:15,933 elements that I would recognize instantly as the Ken Burns. 567 00:20:15,933 --> 00:20:17,866 - You would seen in a film I made as my sort of senior 568 00:20:17,866 --> 00:20:21,333 thesis at Hampshire College in Ameris, Massachusetts 569 00:20:21,333 --> 00:20:23,400 for old Sterburge village which is a living history 570 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,600 museum in New England, the beginnings of that, 571 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,233 and then certainly in Brooklyn bridge you 572 00:20:28,233 --> 00:20:29,866 would see everything that you see today, 573 00:20:29,866 --> 00:20:31,833 and I hope it's evolved but at the same time 574 00:20:31,833 --> 00:20:34,700 that film is still a lovely little film I think 575 00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:36,833 because I was able to just 576 00:20:36,833 --> 00:20:39,766 figure out how to tell a complex story 577 00:20:39,766 --> 00:20:41,066 with those things. 578 00:20:41,066 --> 00:20:43,100 When we talked about techniques, 579 00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:44,500 there four oral. 580 00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:47,666 Not only the third person narrator, 581 00:20:47,666 --> 00:20:50,000 the voice of God, but a first person voice is reading 582 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,133 letters, journals, love letters, military counts, 583 00:20:53,133 --> 00:20:56,233 newspaper counts, complex sound effects 584 00:20:56,233 --> 00:20:57,900 that are willing that old photograph to life 585 00:20:57,900 --> 00:21:01,466 and period music, and on the visual side you have 586 00:21:01,466 --> 00:21:04,233 interviews, you have still photographs. 587 00:21:04,233 --> 00:21:05,700 You have news reels, and you have live 588 00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:07,133 modern cinematography. 589 00:21:07,133 --> 00:21:09,933 There are thousands of other techniques we have, 590 00:21:09,933 --> 00:21:12,833 but if you understand those four visual and four oral 591 00:21:12,833 --> 00:21:14,133 techniques in combination. 592 00:21:14,133 --> 00:21:15,333 Some films have no talking. 593 00:21:15,333 --> 00:21:18,233 Some films have no first person voices. 594 00:21:18,233 --> 00:21:20,633 Some people, like Lewis and Clark, have lots of live 595 00:21:20,633 --> 00:21:22,033 cinematography. 596 00:21:22,033 --> 00:21:25,000 Some like the upcoming films don't have very much 597 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,133 live cinematography because we've got news reels 598 00:21:27,133 --> 00:21:28,400 and photographs. 599 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,466 Everything is calibrated so to me, 600 00:21:30,466 --> 00:21:33,266 each film feels unique and at the same time they're 601 00:21:33,266 --> 00:21:36,933 employing the same we hope honorable relationship 602 00:21:36,933 --> 00:21:40,233 to the subject and that taking the time to do it, 603 00:21:40,233 --> 00:21:41,900 God bless public television, 604 00:21:41,900 --> 00:21:45,433 that permits us to say that this style 605 00:21:45,433 --> 00:21:47,300 can be consistent throughout 606 00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:49,800 and yet each one is it's own set of 607 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,133 a single film is a million, literally, no exaggeration. 608 00:21:54,133 --> 00:21:56,866 A million problems, but I don't see problems in 609 00:21:56,866 --> 00:21:58,366 a pejorative sense. 610 00:21:58,366 --> 00:22:00,100 I see it in a way to try to overcome the necessary 611 00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:03,600 inevitable, lawful friction that comes, like how 612 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:04,400 do you start? 613 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:05,200 Which is the first shot? 614 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:06,433 What's the second shot? 615 00:22:06,433 --> 00:22:07,733 These are all problems that you have to solve. 616 00:22:07,733 --> 00:22:08,900 That's what I love. 617 00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:10,133 That's what gets me up in the morning, 618 00:22:10,133 --> 00:22:12,600 and a series might be 10 million problems, 619 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:13,966 but that's a good thing. 620 00:22:13,966 --> 00:22:16,366 - The Robinson film is 621 00:22:16,366 --> 00:22:18,600 - Two parts, four hours. 622 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:19,700 - Four hours total. 623 00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:21,133 We have just a couple minutes left. 624 00:22:21,133 --> 00:22:22,300 The next things that 625 00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:23,733 the next thing of yours that we'll see 626 00:22:23,733 --> 00:22:26,366 - Your next thing is one called Defying the Nazis, 627 00:22:26,366 --> 00:22:28,633 the Sharp War about a 628 00:22:28,633 --> 00:22:30,366 unitarian minister and his wife that got Jews out of 629 00:22:30,366 --> 00:22:32,333 just on the eve of the Holocaust, 630 00:22:32,333 --> 00:22:35,500 and then the next thing is a big 10 episode, 631 00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:37,733 18 hour history of the war in Vietnam. 632 00:22:37,733 --> 00:22:39,200 - Another big institution. 633 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,533 And you described it to me as maybe your biggest 634 00:22:42,533 --> 00:22:44,133 - Oh, it's most definitely. 635 00:22:44,133 --> 00:22:47,466 It's obviously, it's where a lot of our own 636 00:22:47,466 --> 00:22:49,400 inability to communicate with others, 637 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,966 ourselves, metastasized, 638 00:22:51,966 --> 00:22:53,633 and if you add that to a media culture which 639 00:22:53,633 --> 00:22:55,500 celebrates the independent 640 00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:58,200 free agentness of us all that is to say, 641 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,600 the birthplace of narcissism, 642 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,233 you've got a terrible soup, because we don't listen to 643 00:23:04,233 --> 00:23:05,766 each other, we talk over each other, 644 00:23:05,766 --> 00:23:07,833 and what I try to do is unpack the Vietnam war. 645 00:23:07,833 --> 00:23:09,500 Almost everything you think about 646 00:23:09,500 --> 00:23:11,000 is probably not true. 647 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,733 - I don't want you to ruin the ending for us as a spoiler, 648 00:23:12,733 --> 00:23:13,800 but we lose, right? 649 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:14,366 Is that right? 650 00:23:14,366 --> 00:23:15,000 - We do. 651 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,400 We do. 652 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,100 - Okay good, and then you've got a big country music. 653 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:19,733 - Yep, we just opened our editing room 654 00:23:19,733 --> 00:23:21,633 at the beginning of the year on country music. 655 00:23:21,633 --> 00:23:23,400 We've been filming and it was great to leave 656 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,300 the editing room on Vietnam, waist deep in the deep muddy, 657 00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:28,866 sometimes higher, and to go to Nashville and talk 658 00:23:28,866 --> 00:23:30,100 about country music which is just, 659 00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:32,533 as people say, three quarters of the truth. 660 00:23:32,533 --> 00:23:35,733 If I had my others, I like to have just straight names. 661 00:23:35,733 --> 00:23:37,600 Civil or baseball, jazz, 662 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,766 just to not confuse you about what it is. 663 00:23:39,766 --> 00:23:41,733 - Is Vietnam called Vietnam? 664 00:23:41,733 --> 00:23:42,900 - The Vietnam War, 665 00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:45,633 and I would call this 666 00:23:45,633 --> 00:23:47,700 I can't stop loving you. 667 00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:51,766 This is sort of the epitome 668 00:23:51,766 --> 00:23:53,233 of country music, and it is so much about 669 00:23:53,233 --> 00:23:58,066 the sort of stripped away American values about what 670 00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:59,633 things are. 671 00:23:59,633 --> 00:24:01,266 My last interview was actually with Willie Nelson 672 00:24:01,266 --> 00:24:04,833 in his bus, outside his hotel in Washington D.C. 673 00:24:04,833 --> 00:24:06,433 at rush hour. 674 00:24:06,433 --> 00:24:07,533 - You've obviously cleaned your clothes 675 00:24:07,533 --> 00:24:09,433 since then, because I don't 676 00:24:09,433 --> 00:24:11,600 - Well the first thing everyone asks was 677 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,400 did I leave with a contact high? 678 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,500 We were warned in advance that Willie would be, 679 00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:19,633 as he is, often as notoriously closed lipped. 680 00:24:19,633 --> 00:24:21,366 He was incredibly great, 681 00:24:21,366 --> 00:24:23,133 and wonderful and 682 00:24:23,133 --> 00:24:24,300 help us understand - You went to him. 683 00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:26,233 - some important people in the history, 684 00:24:26,233 --> 00:24:29,600 and he could tell you what it meant to understand 685 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,166 what Hank Williams was going through. 686 00:24:31,166 --> 00:24:33,700 - You go from the early days of country all the way up 687 00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:35,133 through the 688 00:24:35,133 --> 00:24:36,200 - I would say 689 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,066 - The kind of contemporary 690 00:24:37,066 --> 00:24:38,200 - No, we're historians, 691 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:39,700 amateur we may be. 692 00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:40,900 - [Evan] So where do you stop? 693 00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:42,466 - We always wanna stop or at least lift 694 00:24:42,466 --> 00:24:44,566 our foot off the accelerator of sort of definitive 695 00:24:44,566 --> 00:24:47,800 narrative about 25, 30 years out, 696 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,066 because that's the problem of journalism in near history, 697 00:24:52,066 --> 00:24:53,233 and so I imagine 698 00:24:53,233 --> 00:24:56,066 that country music was pronounced dead, 699 00:24:56,066 --> 00:24:58,466 and Johnny Cash was his, 700 00:24:58,466 --> 00:24:59,933 Columbia didn't pick up his contract, 701 00:24:59,933 --> 00:25:01,166 and everybody says he's dead, 702 00:25:01,166 --> 00:25:03,366 and then a year later Garth Brooks 703 00:25:03,366 --> 00:25:04,733 is filling stadiums with 60,000 people. 704 00:25:04,733 --> 00:25:05,733 That's a good place to go. 705 00:25:05,733 --> 00:25:06,900 - So you stop at Garth Brooks. 706 00:25:06,900 --> 00:25:07,900 - We'll see. 707 00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:09,500 We don't really know yet where 708 00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:11,100 and we'll interview. 709 00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:12,833 We've interviewed a lot of people outside 710 00:25:12,833 --> 00:25:14,400 of country music and go up to some folks 711 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:15,833 who are now in country music, but we wanna be, 712 00:25:15,833 --> 00:25:18,933 we got a lot of criticism in baseball and jazz 713 00:25:18,933 --> 00:25:20,233 for not being more definitive, 714 00:25:20,233 --> 00:25:22,566 but you go to somebody and say in jazz, 715 00:25:22,566 --> 00:25:25,333 tell me in the last 25 years who is the equal of Armstrong 716 00:25:25,333 --> 00:25:26,766 and Ellington and Charlie Parker, 717 00:25:26,766 --> 00:25:30,633 Miles Davis, and they'll say, "Well we won't know." 718 00:25:30,633 --> 00:25:32,233 And I go, that rests my case. 719 00:25:32,233 --> 00:25:33,700 - Let me just offer you this. 720 00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:35,500 Any film that is a history of country music in which 721 00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:37,500 Garth Brooks is the point at which it goes black, 722 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:38,366 I'm fine with that. 723 00:25:38,366 --> 00:25:40,100 (laughter) 724 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:42,900 Free advice, do with it what you will. 725 00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:44,566 Ken, what a treat to get to see you, 726 00:25:44,566 --> 00:25:45,966 to talk to you about this stuff. 727 00:25:45,966 --> 00:25:47,133 Thank you for being here. - It's my pleasure. 728 00:25:47,133 --> 00:25:48,166 - [Evan] Ken Burns, thank you so much. 729 00:25:48,166 --> 00:25:49,000 Good luck with the film. 730 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,800 (applause) 731 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,733 - [Voiceover] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 732 00:25:53,733 --> 00:25:58,666 Visit our website at KLRU.org/overheard 733 00:25:58,666 --> 00:26:01,066 to find invitations to interviews, Q and As with our 734 00:26:01,066 --> 00:26:03,333 audience and guests, and an archive 735 00:26:03,333 --> 00:26:05,433 of past episodes. 736 00:26:05,433 --> 00:26:08,233 - Beyond country music which is coming out in 2019, 737 00:26:08,233 --> 00:26:10,433 and in addition to those five or six films 738 00:26:10,433 --> 00:26:11,866 that I've set in motion 739 00:26:11,866 --> 00:26:13,700 where I'm serving as executive producer and I'm trying 740 00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:15,133 to help other filmmakers 741 00:26:15,133 --> 00:26:18,833 help them with fundraising and help them with guidance 742 00:26:18,833 --> 00:26:20,100 and stuff like that. 743 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:21,300 My own stuff that we are already started working 744 00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:22,933 our project on Ernest Hemmingway. 745 00:26:22,933 --> 00:26:24,933 We wanna do a history of crime and punishment. 746 00:26:24,933 --> 00:26:27,566 - [Voiceover] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 747 00:26:27,566 --> 00:26:31,200 is provided in part by MFI Foundation, 748 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,500 improving the quality of life within our community. 749 00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:38,166 Also by Hillco Partners, a Texas government 750 00:26:38,166 --> 00:26:39,733 affairs consultancy, 751 00:26:39,733 --> 00:26:42,833 and by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation.