WEBVTT 00:01.433 --> 00:02.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Voiceover] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 00:02.600 --> 00:06.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is provided in part by MFI Foundation, 00:06.533 --> 00:10.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% improving the quality of life within our community. 00:10.066 --> 00:12.133 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Also by Hillco Partners, 00:12.133 --> 00:14.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy, 00:14.800 --> 00:18.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation. 00:18.466 --> 00:19.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - I'm Evan Smith. 00:19.600 --> 00:20.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He's an iconic Emmy award winning 00:20.966 --> 00:23.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and Academy Award nominated documentary filmmaker 00:23.800 --> 00:26.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% whose credits include the Civil War, 00:26.566 --> 00:28.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% baseball, and jazz. 00:28.466 --> 00:31.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% His latest film for PBS is Jackie Robinson. 00:31.666 --> 00:32.766 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% He's Ken Burns. 00:32.766 --> 00:34.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% This is Overheard. 00:34.233 --> 00:36.000 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Let's me honest. 00:36.000 --> 00:38.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% This is about the ability to learn about 00:38.433 --> 00:41.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the experience of not having been taught properly. 00:41.200 --> 00:42.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% How would you avoid it? 00:42.600 --> 00:44.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% What has befallen other nations in Africa? 00:44.966 --> 00:46.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And you could say he made his own bed, 00:46.300 --> 00:48.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but you cause him to sleep in it. 00:48.066 --> 00:51.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You saw a problem and over time took it on. 00:51.166 --> 00:54.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 00:54.700 --> 00:55.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Are you gonna run for president? 00:55.933 --> 00:57.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think I just got a F from you actually. 00:57.633 --> 00:59.366 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% This is over. 00:59.366 --> 01:02.966 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (applause) 01:02.966 --> 01:04.133 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Ken Burns, welcome. 01:04.133 --> 01:04.933 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Thank you. 01:04.933 --> 01:05.733 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Honored to meet you, 01:05.733 --> 01:06.500 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% great to have you here. 01:06.500 --> 01:07.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - It's my pleasure. 01:07.700 --> 01:09.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Congratulations on this wonderful project. 01:09.333 --> 01:10.766 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Thank you very much. 01:10.766 --> 01:13.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I should say that's it's the great good fortune of 01:13.000 --> 01:15.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% growing old and public television that I share 01:15.400 --> 01:19.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the authorship of this with Sarah Burns 01:19.066 --> 01:20.333 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and David McMahon. 01:20.333 --> 01:22.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Sarah Burns happens to be my oldest daughter. 01:22.466 --> 01:24.900 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% This is 01:24.900 --> 01:25.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Proud moment for a partent. 01:25.833 --> 01:27.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - We made a film together, 01:27.200 --> 01:28.433 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% the three of us 01:28.433 --> 01:29.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% called the Central Park Five. 01:29.866 --> 01:32.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It came out a few years ago, and when that was done 01:32.100 --> 01:35.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% we were plowing directly into Jackie Robinson, and so 01:35.533 --> 01:37.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% when you say that I've done it, 01:37.900 --> 01:40.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm always aware on every film that is 01:40.500 --> 01:42.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% an unbelievable collaborative effort, but in this case 01:42.400 --> 01:44.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the coproducers and codirectors are 01:44.500 --> 01:46.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Sarah Burns and David McMahon. 01:46.566 --> 01:48.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Look at the generosity of that statement. 01:48.633 --> 01:50.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Ken] Actually it has the extra added virtue of 01:50.833 --> 01:52.300 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% being true. 01:52.300 --> 01:54.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Evan] Is this a race movie or a baseball movie? 01:54.800 --> 01:57.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - It's a good story about one of the most important 01:57.633 --> 02:00.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% people in all of American history. 02:00.733 --> 02:04.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% This is not the first progress in civil rights since 02:04.366 --> 02:07.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the Civil War, but it's the beginning of the modern 02:07.066 --> 02:08.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% era of civil rights. 02:08.833 --> 02:10.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - [Evan] It's a transition point 02:10.100 --> 02:11.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or a reflection point. - When Jackie Robinson 02:11.266 --> 02:14.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% walks out to first base on April 15, 1947, 02:14.733 --> 02:17.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Martin Luther King is a junior at Morehouse College. 02:17.966 --> 02:20.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Harry Truman hasn't integrated the military. 02:20.366 --> 02:22.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Brown versus Board of Education hasn't happened. 02:22.633 --> 02:24.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% There haven't been organized sit ins. 02:24.400 --> 02:26.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Though Jackie did it as a teenager on his own, 02:26.433 --> 02:28.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and Rosa Parks is a decade away from 02:28.266 --> 02:30.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% refusing to give up her seat on a Montgomery, Alabama 02:30.533 --> 02:32.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% bus, something Jackie had done three years earlier 02:32.733 --> 02:35.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% in 44 at Fort Hood in Texas. 02:35.500 --> 02:38.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% What you have in some ways is the beginning 02:38.766 --> 02:40.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% of the modern era. 02:40.233 --> 02:43.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% He's evolved from the A Philip Randolf of the Brotherhood 02:43.500 --> 02:44.666 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% of Sleeping Car Ports, 02:44.666 --> 02:46.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% and WEB to boys 02:46.066 --> 02:49.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and to a lesser extent some of the other leaders 02:49.066 --> 02:50.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% of the earliest 20th century. 02:50.700 --> 02:53.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He's now plowing forward and permitting 02:53.633 --> 02:56.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% these other manifestations to take place. 02:56.033 --> 02:59.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% This is first of all a great story in sports. 02:59.333 --> 03:01.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% He is the most imporant person 03:01.066 --> 03:02.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in the history of baseball, our national pastime. 03:02.933 --> 03:05.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He's not the best player arguably, but he is 03:05.400 --> 03:08.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the most important, and then it is a great American story 03:08.333 --> 03:11.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because it deals with our central subtheme, 03:11.333 --> 03:13.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% after you deal with the nature of freedom, 03:13.633 --> 03:16.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% human freedom, the tension between what I want 03:16.200 --> 03:18.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and our collective needs together, 03:18.333 --> 03:20.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% then race is the central theme, 03:20.300 --> 03:22.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and I think it's a much larger human story about a person 03:22.933 --> 03:25.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% who takes on his shoulders this enormous burden, 03:25.666 --> 03:29.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% turning the other cheek, and so he was a central part 03:29.200 --> 03:31.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of our baseball series that came out in 94 03:31.700 --> 03:34.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in almost every episode and we thought we done him, 03:34.400 --> 03:37.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but the chance to do a stand alone prompted by his widow 03:37.833 --> 03:40.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Rachel who's 93, with all of her marbles 03:40.100 --> 03:43.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and some of mine, and I want them back. 03:43.300 --> 03:44.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (laughter) 03:44.066 --> 03:45.266 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I want them back. 03:45.266 --> 03:48.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We were able to do a deeper, deeper dive, 03:48.866 --> 03:50.266 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and to help shed, 03:50.266 --> 03:52.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% you know, what happens when you have a mythological 03:52.066 --> 03:54.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% figure is that mythology gets in the way of really 03:54.233 --> 03:55.433 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% understanding. 03:55.433 --> 03:57.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The barnacles of sentimentality across 03:57.466 --> 03:59.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - We think we know Jackie Robinson as we 03:59.366 --> 04:01.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% think we know many of the subjects 04:01.000 --> 04:02.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Look at George Washington 04:02.400 --> 04:04.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who we say wooden teeth, never had wooden teeth. 04:04.866 --> 04:08.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Threw a dollar coin across the Petomic, couldn't happen. 04:08.133 --> 04:09.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Never told a lie. 04:09.700 --> 04:10.766 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Everybody lies. 04:10.766 --> 04:11.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Chopped down a cherry tree. 04:11.833 --> 04:13.033 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% None of this happens. 04:13.033 --> 04:14.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% This was invented in the after math 04:14.633 --> 04:17.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to help glorify him and make him palatable to schools. 04:17.233 --> 04:18.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - [Evan] What about Jackie Robinson? 04:18.633 --> 04:20.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I'm interested in this because I did think to myself 04:20.533 --> 04:22.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and looking at this film 04:22.833 --> 04:24.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% there was a lot that I didn't know. 04:24.066 --> 04:26.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% There was a lot about him as a personality 04:26.166 --> 04:27.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and his disposition toward the world 04:27.833 --> 04:29.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that I don't know that I knew or that 04:29.400 --> 04:31.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I hadn't been told or maybe I had been told, 04:31.500 --> 04:34.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but idealized it or romantisized it. 04:34.733 --> 04:35.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - That's exactly right. 04:35.833 --> 04:37.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - What do you think we don't know? 04:37.533 --> 04:40.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And why don't we know it about Jackie Robinson? 04:40.100 --> 04:42.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I know why we don't know it first of all, 04:42.666 --> 04:45.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% which is we live in a media culture which we are 04:45.333 --> 04:47.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% buried in a tsunami of informaiton 04:47.300 --> 04:48.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% so what tends to happen - Some of even true. 04:48.866 --> 04:50.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - A few things are true, 04:50.233 --> 04:53.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and what we have is a kind of superficial 04:53.000 --> 04:55.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% conventional wisdom that then accrues, 04:55.000 --> 04:56.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think I know who Jackie Robinson is. 04:56.933 --> 04:58.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He turned the other cheek for three years, 04:58.433 --> 04:59.400 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% all this stuff. 04:59.400 --> 05:00.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Maybe know a little bit more, 05:00.866 --> 05:03.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Branch Ricky is God who bestows points like Michael 05:03.500 --> 05:05.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Angelo's finger and bestows his son. 05:05.433 --> 05:08.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% This real story is so much more complicated that 05:08.166 --> 05:10.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% everything changes, and what's so nice is that the 05:10.766 --> 05:13.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% complexity doesn't diminish him, 05:13.133 --> 05:16.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and this isn't revisionism where the pendulum swings to 05:16.300 --> 05:17.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% where we're not throwing him out 05:17.533 --> 05:18.800 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% because he's. 05:18.800 --> 05:21.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - We understand he's a demential human being. 05:21.066 --> 05:24.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% This is a multi-generational portrait of an African American 05:24.500 --> 05:26.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% family, which you don't get very often. 05:26.533 --> 05:28.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% This is an extraordinary love story between 05:28.933 --> 05:30.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% two people who loved each other but not without 05:30.966 --> 05:32.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it's tensions and it's flash points. 05:32.866 --> 05:34.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% There's a wonderful story, and she's there 05:34.700 --> 05:37.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to narrate us through incredibly difficult, incredibly 05:37.466 --> 05:39.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% pointy and incredibly moving, 05:39.166 --> 05:41.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and incredibly dramatic moments not only her 05:41.500 --> 05:44.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and their life, but in the history of the United States 05:44.700 --> 05:47.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and so what happens is it permits us to at every juncture 05:47.966 --> 05:51.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to say, "The familiar tropes of the old story, 05:51.533 --> 05:54.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "the children's books don't work here." 05:54.333 --> 05:56.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% What we're suggesting is something great. 05:56.633 --> 05:57.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I'll give you an example, 05:57.800 --> 05:59.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% not with Jackie, but in a larger sense 05:59.366 --> 06:01.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% which is we lament that there are no heroes today, 06:01.666 --> 06:04.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and that's because in that same superficial conventional 06:04.133 --> 06:06.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% media that we have, conventional wisdom 06:06.800 --> 06:09.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is that we think heroes are perfect, 06:09.566 --> 06:13.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and the greeks who invented the notion of heroism told us 06:13.333 --> 06:16.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% thousands of years ago that heroism isn't perfection, 06:16.566 --> 06:18.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it's in fact a very delicate negotiation, 06:18.566 --> 06:21.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% sometimes a war between a person's obvious strengths 06:21.400 --> 06:24.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and their not so obvious, but perhaps equal weaknesses, 06:24.533 --> 06:26.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and it is that negotiation and that tension 06:26.833 --> 06:29.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that sometimes that war that defines heroism. 06:29.966 --> 06:33.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% What happens is we have the unfortunate tendency 06:33.566 --> 06:35.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in a media culture to throw somebody out when 06:35.700 --> 06:39.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% we find the slightest bit of lack of perfection 06:39.433 --> 06:42.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and say, we so sorry we have no heroes. 06:42.033 --> 06:43.266 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% There are thousands of 06:43.266 --> 06:45.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% heroes, because it's how you negotiate with 06:45.400 --> 06:47.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the bad stuff, both your own flaws 06:47.933 --> 06:50.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% as well as the stuff that happens to you 06:50.400 --> 06:51.766 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% that defines heroism. 06:51.766 --> 06:53.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I would say that's absolutely true, 06:53.433 --> 06:55.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but another thing that happens is that we carve away 06:55.333 --> 06:57.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the parts that we don't wanna see. 06:57.100 --> 06:58.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - [Ken] That's exactly right. 06:58.266 --> 06:59.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - So that when we present Jackie Robinson, 06:59.400 --> 07:01.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the image that comes to my mind's eye 07:01.533 --> 07:05.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is of him sliding and then you quickly go to a shot 07:05.433 --> 07:07.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of him with Branch Ricky or him with other 07:07.900 --> 07:11.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% white executives of baseball at the time, 07:11.000 --> 07:13.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and the heroism of his having been the first. 07:13.200 --> 07:15.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He's kind of the beginning, the middle, 07:15.433 --> 07:16.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and the end of the story. 07:16.833 --> 07:18.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% One of the things I loved most about this movie 07:18.933 --> 07:21.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% was the juxtaposition of Jackie Robinson later 07:21.800 --> 07:25.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in life with Muhammad Ali an with Jim Brown, 07:25.000 --> 07:26.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and the idea that somehow Jackie Robinson, 07:26.866 --> 07:28.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% who had been the first, 07:28.400 --> 07:30.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% without whom none of this other stuff would have happened. 07:30.400 --> 07:32.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Jackie Robinson is now being put in the position of 07:32.300 --> 07:34.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% being too much of an accommodationist 07:34.566 --> 07:35.966 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - An uncle Tom. 07:35.966 --> 07:38.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And Muhammad Ali and Jim Brown are representing 07:38.100 --> 07:39.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the militancy of the time, 07:39.500 --> 07:42.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and Jackie Robinson is being criticized for not being 07:42.100 --> 07:44.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% sufficiently an advocate for this position. 07:44.900 --> 07:46.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And he had been the most radical 07:46.366 --> 07:47.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - How could you have been more radical? 07:47.666 --> 07:49.033 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Exactly. 07:49.033 --> 07:51.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There's a wonderful historian, Yura Williams, 07:51.200 --> 07:54.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who says the definition in the 1940s 07:54.000 --> 07:56.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of black masculinity is Jackie Robinson, 07:56.800 --> 08:00.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% but by the 1960s that has tired, 08:00.333 --> 08:03.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and so you have a Muhammad Ali and a Jim Brown, 08:03.533 --> 08:07.300 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% and Carlos Smith at the Olympics. 08:07.300 --> 08:08.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - At the olympics, right, 08:08.866 --> 08:10.000 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% fist in the air. - That becomes 08:10.000 --> 08:11.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and some of the more radical folks, 08:11.600 --> 08:14.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% at the same time our laws are being transformed 08:14.233 --> 08:17.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in Civil Rights acts by Lyndon Johnson. 08:17.666 --> 08:19.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There's a kind of impatience that it's not really working, 08:19.900 --> 08:22.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and it's not happening fast enough. 08:22.300 --> 08:24.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There are a lot of people who migrate to a more 08:24.300 --> 08:26.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% violent posture, a more militant posture, 08:26.933 --> 08:29.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and so we're trying to understand it, 08:29.300 --> 08:31.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and Jackie got caught up in that, just as Dr. King did. 08:31.566 --> 08:34.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He was often there's some very pointed 08:34.400 --> 08:38.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% comments by Malcolm X talking about passive ministers 08:38.433 --> 08:40.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and there can be only one passive minister that 08:40.500 --> 08:41.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% he's thinking about. - But Jackie 08:41.500 --> 08:43.733 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Robinson did not shrink. 08:43.733 --> 08:45.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% What I loved about him, 08:45.000 --> 08:46.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the first part I loved was the juxtaposition. 08:46.500 --> 08:48.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The second part that I loved was Jackie Robinson basically 08:48.233 --> 08:49.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% going back at these guys. 08:49.733 --> 08:51.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% You're wrong here. 08:51.233 --> 08:53.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He wrote a column, newspaper column, 08:53.366 --> 08:55.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I remember once specifically that you cited 08:55.000 --> 08:57.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in which he took Malcolm X on directly. 08:57.233 --> 09:00.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yes, but also criticized the NAACP 09:00.933 --> 09:03.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% for not advancing younger leaders more quickly. 09:03.000 --> 09:04.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% What you have is somebody, 09:04.600 --> 09:07.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% this is some ways a existential story. 09:07.066 --> 09:08.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% A lot of people talk the talk. 09:08.533 --> 09:10.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Do you walk the walk? 09:10.000 --> 09:11.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And Jackie Robinson got up everyday 09:11.900 --> 09:14.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to try to improve the lives of other people 09:14.333 --> 09:17.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and one of the stories that we can sort of disengage 09:17.433 --> 09:19.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% ourselves from because it's too convenient 09:19.133 --> 09:21.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and it's the subject of children's books and statues is 09:21.366 --> 09:23.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the famous saying where in that first season, 09:23.466 --> 09:26.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% 1947, they have gone to Crosley Field, 09:26.233 --> 09:27.800 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% incredibly racist. 09:27.800 --> 09:30.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The tuperative comments are being hurled at Jackie, 09:30.166 --> 09:32.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and Pee Wee Rease walks over and puts his 09:32.800 --> 09:34.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% arm around him. 09:34.066 --> 09:35.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That's one of the great moments in the mythology 09:35.033 --> 09:36.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% of Jackie Robinson. 09:36.000 --> 09:37.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% It didn't happen. 09:37.400 --> 09:38.533 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Another thing that we 09:38.533 --> 09:40.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - There's a statue outside of the 09:40.400 --> 09:42.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Great American Ballpark in Cincinnati 09:42.400 --> 09:43.600 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% that shows this. 09:43.600 --> 09:44.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% There's children's books about this. 09:44.600 --> 09:45.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% But it didn't happen. 09:45.833 --> 09:48.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's not in Jackie's autobiography. 09:48.300 --> 09:49.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% It's not in the white press. 09:49.566 --> 09:50.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's not in the black press which would have 09:50.800 --> 09:52.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% done 15 related articles. 09:52.733 --> 09:54.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Also that first year Jackie played first 09:54.100 --> 09:55.766 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and Pee Wee is at short. 09:55.766 --> 09:57.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You would have to go across the diamond 09:57.666 --> 09:59.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% which never happens before. 09:59.666 --> 10:02.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Maybe later years, and what happened is they probably 10:02.300 --> 10:04.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% did, after many years they were together 10:04.333 --> 10:05.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and they threw their arm around her, 10:05.600 --> 10:07.133 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% had a conversation, 10:07.133 --> 10:09.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and that migrated back in time to that first season, because 10:09.533 --> 10:11.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% no pun intended, we white people 10:11.766 --> 10:13.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% wanted to have skin in the game. 10:13.666 --> 10:15.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We wanted to feel like we were good 10:15.933 --> 10:19.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and that we were capable of participating this 10:19.700 --> 10:20.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and supporting it. 10:20.700 --> 10:22.900 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% Another thing is we always invest 10:22.900 --> 10:25.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Branch Ricky with much more authorship of this moment 10:25.433 --> 10:27.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% than before, as if he said 10:27.166 --> 10:29.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% my conscience is stirring, 10:29.233 --> 10:30.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and we pointed out in our baseball series that 10:30.900 --> 10:33.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% he was also a good businessman, and he knew he could 10:33.200 --> 10:34.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% put African American seats, 10:34.466 --> 10:36.133 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% fill African American 10:36.133 --> 10:37.433 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Seats in the stadiums. 10:37.433 --> 10:38.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - In Ebbet's Field, but 10:38.700 --> 10:40.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and it's true he had this great conscience. 10:40.666 --> 10:42.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He was a very, very amazing human being, 10:42.766 --> 10:44.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but the African American press have been pushing 10:44.666 --> 10:46.066 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% for this for decades, 10:46.066 --> 10:49.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% so had the left wing press in the United States 10:49.933 --> 10:51.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% including the communist press. 10:51.366 --> 10:52.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Oh, I don't wanna hear about the Communist press. 10:52.566 --> 10:54.200 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% The Daily Worker, right. 10:54.200 --> 10:56.766 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% So had the left leaning 10:56.766 --> 10:58.033 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Republican, 10:58.033 --> 11:00.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I have not lost my mind, left leaning 11:00.433 --> 11:04.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Republican mayor of New York City, Firlia Auglaria. 11:04.900 --> 11:07.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There were state commissions that were investigating 11:07.400 --> 11:09.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% discriminatory hiring practices. 11:09.266 --> 11:10.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There was lots of pressure on Branch Ricky, 11:10.833 --> 11:14.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and he had planned not to have one single son 11:14.366 --> 11:16.066 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% that he would bestow, 11:16.066 --> 11:17.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but to bring up a handful of African Americans, 11:17.966 --> 11:19.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but because of all this pressure and this failure, 11:19.900 --> 11:22.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% his anxiety that maybe he was gonna lose control 11:22.800 --> 11:24.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of the moment, he hears about Jackie 11:24.800 --> 11:26.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% from an African American reporter who 11:26.833 --> 11:29.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% he's in touch with who had a good try out, 11:29.466 --> 11:31.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and he said, "Oh yes I remember him. 11:31.366 --> 11:32.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "He's the great football star, and the guy 11:32.600 --> 11:34.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "you refuse to give up is at Fort Hood," 11:34.666 --> 11:36.066 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and blah blah blah. 11:36.066 --> 11:39.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It all plows accidentially as well as on purpose 11:39.600 --> 11:42.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% towards Jackie, and not this sense that it was all 11:42.466 --> 11:43.833 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% set out to be. 11:43.833 --> 11:46.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Angels arrived, annouced the virgin birth, 11:46.066 --> 11:47.800 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% this happened (laughter) 11:47.800 --> 11:49.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It's a lot messier than it seems. 11:49.366 --> 11:51.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Here's the other thing that is perhaps even more important 11:51.833 --> 11:54.900 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% as you get to know how competitive, how fiercely competitive 11:54.900 --> 11:57.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Jackie is, you begin to understand the the turning 11:57.200 --> 11:59.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of the other cheek is unbelievably 11:59.500 --> 12:01.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% it's a tough thing to do. 12:01.766 --> 12:03.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% He's gonna turn the other cheek for three years, 12:03.666 --> 12:06.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% one in the minors and two in the majors 12:06.200 --> 12:08.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% is not like his character. 12:08.266 --> 12:11.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He's actually going against who he is 12:11.466 --> 12:14.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in order to make sure that this experiment succeeds. 12:14.233 --> 12:15.166 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Amazing. 12:15.166 --> 12:16.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - It's one of the great stories. 12:16.366 --> 12:17.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - [Evan] One of the things I loved also, 12:17.600 --> 12:18.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% another part of this that I really enjoyed 12:18.900 --> 12:21.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% was the story that Rachel Robinson tells. 12:21.100 --> 12:23.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They get married and instead of going on a traditional 12:23.633 --> 12:25.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% honeymoon, the honeymoon is we're gonna go 12:25.533 --> 12:26.733 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% to spring training. 12:26.733 --> 12:29.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They get on, they attempt to get on 12:29.633 --> 12:30.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the plane. - A series of planes 12:30.866 --> 12:33.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that are gonna take them from Los Angeles 12:33.500 --> 12:35.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to Florida for the spring training. 12:35.333 --> 12:38.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He's joining the Royals which is the triple A 12:38.366 --> 12:40.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% baseball team of the Dodgers, 12:40.266 --> 12:42.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and Ricky's picked it so he can go and be 12:42.533 --> 12:45.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in Montreal where it's a better environment for him, 12:45.600 --> 12:47.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but they got spring training in Florida 12:47.500 --> 12:48.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% which is not the greatest. 12:48.733 --> 12:50.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - They attempt to board planes with the team 12:50.733 --> 12:55.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and they're bunked for white travelers 12:55.066 --> 12:58.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% once, twice, and eventually 12:58.000 --> 13:02.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% they have to ride a bus because they cannot get a flight. 13:02.033 --> 13:04.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% They will not get a flight. 13:04.000 --> 13:05.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Rachel Robinson in fact tells this story. 13:05.400 --> 13:06.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% She's sort of distraught. 13:06.300 --> 13:07.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% This is my honeymoon, this 13:07.533 --> 13:08.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% her moment. - Her mother in law comes 13:08.933 --> 13:10.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% as they're about to leave Los Angeles and brings 13:10.566 --> 13:12.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% them a shoe box full of fried chicken, 13:12.533 --> 13:15.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and she's embarrassed, but Mallie Robinson, Jackie's mother 13:15.966 --> 13:17.733 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% knows of the world. 13:17.733 --> 13:21.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% She's brought him from Jim Crow, Southern Georgia, 13:21.800 --> 13:23.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% K Row Georgia where African Americans are being 13:23.933 --> 13:26.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% lidged all the time, and guests in Pasadena 13:26.500 --> 13:28.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% where they have to deal with a new form of 13:28.400 --> 13:31.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% sometimes overt, sometimes covert racism. 13:31.366 --> 13:34.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% She understands and Rachel has never even seen 13:34.800 --> 13:37.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% bathrooms more colored and so she goes into the white 13:37.000 --> 13:39.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% ladies bathroom to sort of compose herself, 13:39.766 --> 13:41.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and as she says, do what she had to do, 13:41.900 --> 13:43.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and then walk out and all these women 13:43.133 --> 13:45.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% are looking at her, but there's this moment of 13:45.000 --> 13:47.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% unbelievable shame and then Rachel comes 13:47.166 --> 13:50.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% back and says fiercely, "The fried chicken was great." 13:50.166 --> 13:52.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They started off with embarrassment at 13:52.633 --> 13:54.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% this gesture from the older generation, 13:54.366 --> 13:57.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and suddenly understood that the accommodation 13:57.000 --> 14:00.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% was gonna have to be a part of their lives yet again. 14:00.666 --> 14:01.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I asked you if this was a movie about baseball 14:01.966 --> 14:03.400 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% or race. 14:03.400 --> 14:05.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Really the better question is, is it a movie about 14:05.900 --> 14:07.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Jackie or is it a movie about Rachel, 14:07.766 --> 14:10.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because on some levels it really is Rachel's story, 14:10.366 --> 14:12.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and as you say, Rachel is in the movie, 14:12.466 --> 14:15.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% present, narrating, telling stories, 14:15.100 --> 14:16.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and she was in fact the one 14:16.566 --> 14:19.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% going back to the decision to do the story 14:19.433 --> 14:20.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to begin with. - She called me up 14:20.600 --> 14:22.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% after the baseball series and just lobbied 14:22.500 --> 14:23.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% for an awfully long time, 14:23.633 --> 14:25.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and finally I saw some daylight, 14:25.100 --> 14:26.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and I said, before that, I said, "Rachel, if you find 14:26.666 --> 14:28.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "somebody else to do it, he deserves a stand alone, 14:28.866 --> 14:30.133 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% "but do it." 14:30.133 --> 14:30.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% She says, "No, no, no, I'm waiting for you." 14:30.933 --> 14:33.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Her dignity and her, 14:33.600 --> 14:35.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% her dignity in this movie on camera is remarkable. 14:35.900 --> 14:38.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - We had the opportunity as you did yesterday 14:38.266 --> 14:39.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to interview not only the president, 14:39.666 --> 14:43.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but the first lady as well and these are four 14:43.000 --> 14:44.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% people, hurdling through space and time, 14:44.833 --> 14:48.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% two couples and they're very similar. 14:48.200 --> 14:51.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Jackie is walking through a door that no one has 14:51.700 --> 14:54.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% walked through before and he probably can't 14:54.633 --> 14:58.633 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% do it without her, most definitely can't do it without her, 14:58.633 --> 14:59.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and the president walked through the door 14:59.900 --> 15:01.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% no one had ever walked through before 15:01.666 --> 15:03.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% as an African American, and he probably couldn't 15:03.833 --> 15:05.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% do it without Michelle, 15:05.100 --> 15:06.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and it's interesting to hear Jackie's there 15:06.833 --> 15:10.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and voice and spirit and Rachel 15:10.100 --> 15:12.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is resurrecting him, but they're both there 15:12.366 --> 15:14.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% talking about what you need to come home 15:14.833 --> 15:16.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% when the opprobrium of the world has been 15:16.500 --> 15:20.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% heaped on you, not because of the content of your 15:20.133 --> 15:22.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% character, but because of the color of your skin, 15:22.033 --> 15:24.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and the president says so movingly, it's so great to 15:24.300 --> 15:26.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% come home to find someone who loves you 15:26.366 --> 15:29.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and has your back, which is exactly what Rachel is saying 15:29.000 --> 15:31.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and you suddenly realize this an old trope 15:31.533 --> 15:32.633 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% in American history. 15:32.633 --> 15:34.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - We haven't mvoed an inch. 15:34.833 --> 15:37.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well we have because I got to interview 15:37.900 --> 15:39.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% an African American president and first lady 15:39.833 --> 15:42.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% about the first baseball player. 15:42.333 --> 15:44.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right but at the same time, the same 15:44.733 --> 15:46.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% thing about the president was said about Jackie Robinson. 15:46.700 --> 15:48.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Maybe he's not black enough. 15:48.300 --> 15:49.833 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Our film 15:49.833 --> 15:53.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is got issues of the confederate flag and integrated 15:53.500 --> 15:56.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% swimming pools and driving while black 15:56.766 --> 15:58.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and stop and frisk, and all sorts of stuff. 15:58.233 --> 16:01.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The tropes that are going on now, so you do feel 16:01.633 --> 16:04.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the pessimist could feel that the more things change 16:04.800 --> 16:07.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the more they stay the same, but to me 16:07.200 --> 16:09.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% what I've understood from doing this for 40 years is 16:09.966 --> 16:12.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% from Ecclesiastes, "What has been will be again. 16:12.933 --> 16:14.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "What has been done will be done again. 16:14.633 --> 16:16.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "There's nothing new under the sun." 16:16.166 --> 16:17.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% There's no cycles of history. 16:17.600 --> 16:19.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% We're not condemned to repeat what we don't remember, 16:19.600 --> 16:21.033 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% that's very convenient, 16:21.033 --> 16:24.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but human nature repeats itself and superimposes itself 16:24.633 --> 16:28.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% over the seemingly random chaos events and we can perceive 16:28.400 --> 16:30.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% patterns and themes. 16:30.100 --> 16:32.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Mark Twain is supposed to have said that history 16:32.533 --> 16:34.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. 16:34.166 --> 16:37.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% My job is to listen to those rhymes 16:37.100 --> 16:38.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and to try to hear somethings. 16:38.533 --> 16:41.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think we can, the pessimist can say, 16:41.333 --> 16:43.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% this is a glass half empty, 16:43.433 --> 16:45.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but at the same time you can understand that progress 16:45.333 --> 16:46.600 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% has been made. 16:46.600 --> 16:48.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% What you can't do is let up on the accelerator. 16:48.766 --> 16:50.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% What you can't do, and this is what Jackie understood, 16:50.200 --> 16:54.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that life is measured only by the way it affects other 16:54.166 --> 16:55.466 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% people's lives. 16:55.466 --> 16:57.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It says on his gravestone, and that is what 16:57.233 --> 16:59.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% this is about, that's why it's an existential story. 16:59.166 --> 17:02.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You get every morning to improve the lives of others 17:02.066 --> 17:04.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% you are walking the walk. 17:04.200 --> 17:06.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - You are the Ecclesiastes of documentary filmmakers 17:06.466 --> 17:08.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in the sense that the way you've approached 17:08.500 --> 17:10.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% filmmaking over time, different films, 17:10.833 --> 17:13.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but what has always been is still the case. 17:13.833 --> 17:16.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% You tackle a subject thoroughly, 17:16.600 --> 17:20.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% you tend to tackle institutions which I think really hard, 17:20.833 --> 17:23.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% how do you make a nine episode series 17:23.233 --> 17:24.666 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% about the Civil War 17:24.666 --> 17:27.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or a nine episode or 10 episode series about baseball. 17:27.266 --> 17:29.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% These are institutions that are so large and so difficult 17:29.566 --> 17:31.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to get your arms around, but your approach has 17:31.933 --> 17:34.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% been similar, and I think there's something comforting 17:34.366 --> 17:38.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% about a Ken Burns project, because you know going into it 17:38.133 --> 17:40.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that there are gonna be certain standards, and certain 17:40.100 --> 17:44.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% visual cues and audio cues, and you know what you're getting 17:44.066 --> 17:45.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% even though the subject is different. 17:45.700 --> 17:47.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% That has been a deliberate decision on your part. 17:47.933 --> 17:48.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - It has been deliberate. 17:48.866 --> 17:50.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I mean style is, you could say, 17:50.266 --> 17:53.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is just the authentic application of techniques. 17:53.033 --> 17:55.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% All craftsmen, all artists have lots of techniques 17:55.033 --> 17:57.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% at their disposal, but if you 17:57.366 --> 17:58.866 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - But it evolves. 17:58.866 --> 18:01.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And it evolves, but if it's done organically, 18:01.533 --> 18:03.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% honorably, then people recognize. 18:03.233 --> 18:04.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% This is why you can go into a gallery 18:04.900 --> 18:06.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and there are all paintings. 18:06.833 --> 18:07.766 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% You go, "Oh, man. 18:07.766 --> 18:08.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "I get it, that's all De Gah." 18:08.866 --> 18:11.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I've tried to live that way, 18:11.033 --> 18:13.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to not let technology be a tail that wags the dog 18:13.800 --> 18:15.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but rather control the technology to serve something 18:15.800 --> 18:19.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that's not glamorous, but to serve a complicated story 18:19.666 --> 18:22.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and we're always not trying to tell you 18:22.200 --> 18:23.566 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% what we already know, 18:23.566 --> 18:25.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% as some documentary filmmakers do, 18:25.233 --> 18:27.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and the last time I checked that's called homework, 18:27.100 --> 18:29.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but share with you our process of discovery, 18:29.933 --> 18:31.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% and that's huge. 18:31.066 --> 18:34.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Each film is saying who are we? 18:34.266 --> 18:36.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Who are these strange and complicated people 18:36.600 --> 18:38.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who like to call themselves Americans? 18:38.200 --> 18:40.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% What does an investigation of the past tell 18:40.500 --> 18:42.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% us about not only where we were but where we are 18:42.100 --> 18:44.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and where we may be going. 18:44.366 --> 18:46.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% History, if you know it, it's a kind of armor, 18:46.766 --> 18:48.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and I'll give you one simple, 18:48.066 --> 18:49.666 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% very quick example. 18:49.666 --> 18:52.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% When the '08, '09 meltdown happened, 18:52.133 --> 18:54.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% friends of mine, even in the financial industry said, 18:54.166 --> 18:55.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "This is like the depression." 18:55.233 --> 18:56.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I said, "No, it's not." 18:56.466 --> 18:58.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% In the depression, in some cities, the animals 18:58.533 --> 19:01.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in the zoo were shot and the meat was distributed 19:01.266 --> 19:02.633 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% to the poor. 19:02.633 --> 19:04.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% When that happens I'll admit we're in a depression, 19:04.233 --> 19:06.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and then all of a sudden that gives you a kind of 19:06.966 --> 19:08.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% perspective to sort of deal with things 19:08.866 --> 19:10.366 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% on a different level. 19:10.366 --> 19:12.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You don't have to chicken little, the sky is falling, 19:12.466 --> 19:15.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and you can also say let's take this seriously 19:15.233 --> 19:16.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% but let's not over do it. 19:16.900 --> 19:18.333 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Let's not invest it. 19:18.333 --> 19:20.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - We tend to romanticize in the positive direction 19:20.033 --> 19:21.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and we also romanticize in the negative direction. 19:21.966 --> 19:23.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's never as good as it seems to me 19:23.233 --> 19:24.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and never as bad. 19:24.400 --> 19:26.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% If I went back and looked, as I understand 19:26.300 --> 19:29.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the story, your first film was a documentary 19:29.033 --> 19:30.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% you made in Anarbor. 19:30.400 --> 19:31.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Is that right? 19:31.066 --> 19:32.200 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - No, everybody 19:32.200 --> 19:33.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Was that a film? 19:33.466 --> 19:35.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - No, my dad gave me a camera and I went out 19:35.000 --> 19:37.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and shot different things there. 19:37.433 --> 19:39.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% My first film that I signed 19:39.133 --> 19:43.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is one that is the first one for PBS on the Brooklyn Bridge. 19:43.433 --> 19:45.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% That was the film. - Based on the McCaloh book. 19:47.400 --> 19:48.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - The construction, he had done a book on 19:48.800 --> 19:50.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the construction of it and half the film is about 19:50.033 --> 19:51.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the construction the other half was 19:51.366 --> 19:53.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - More of your project than 19:53.066 --> 19:55.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, and then I brought David to be the narrator, 19:55.133 --> 19:57.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because he knew the story as well as any 19:57.000 --> 19:58.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and that was taboo in those days. 19:58.433 --> 20:00.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Your narrator was Alexander Scorbi or 20:00.666 --> 20:03.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Orsten Wells, and you got. 20:03.733 --> 20:05.166 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% I thought why? 20:05.166 --> 20:06.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Why would you groom somebody who understood the story? 20:06.533 --> 20:08.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - If I went back and looked at Brooklyn bridge 20:08.000 --> 20:09.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or I went back and looked even before that at the stuff 20:09.266 --> 20:10.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that you were shooting more casually back in 20:10.866 --> 20:12.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Anarbor, would I see in those productions 20:12.733 --> 20:15.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% elements that I would recognize instantly as the Ken Burns. 20:15.933 --> 20:17.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - You would seen in a film I made as my sort of senior 20:17.866 --> 20:21.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% thesis at Hampshire College in Ameris, Massachusetts 20:21.333 --> 20:23.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% for old Sterburge village which is a living history 20:23.400 --> 20:25.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% museum in New England, the beginnings of that, 20:25.600 --> 20:28.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and then certainly in Brooklyn bridge you 20:28.233 --> 20:29.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% would see everything that you see today, 20:29.866 --> 20:31.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and I hope it's evolved but at the same time 20:31.833 --> 20:34.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that film is still a lovely little film I think 20:34.700 --> 20:36.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% because I was able to just 20:36.833 --> 20:39.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% figure out how to tell a complex story 20:39.766 --> 20:41.066 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% with those things. 20:41.066 --> 20:43.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% When we talked about techniques, 20:43.100 --> 20:44.500 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% there four oral. 20:44.500 --> 20:47.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Not only the third person narrator, 20:47.666 --> 20:50.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the voice of God, but a first person voice is reading 20:50.000 --> 20:53.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% letters, journals, love letters, military counts, 20:53.133 --> 20:56.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% newspaper counts, complex sound effects 20:56.233 --> 20:57.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that are willing that old photograph to life 20:57.900 --> 21:01.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and period music, and on the visual side you have 21:01.466 --> 21:04.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% interviews, you have still photographs. 21:04.233 --> 21:05.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You have news reels, and you have live 21:05.700 --> 21:07.133 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% modern cinematography. 21:07.133 --> 21:09.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There are thousands of other techniques we have, 21:09.933 --> 21:12.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but if you understand those four visual and four oral 21:12.833 --> 21:14.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% techniques in combination. 21:14.133 --> 21:15.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Some films have no talking. 21:15.333 --> 21:18.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Some films have no first person voices. 21:18.233 --> 21:20.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Some people, like Lewis and Clark, have lots of live 21:20.633 --> 21:22.033 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% cinematography. 21:22.033 --> 21:25.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Some like the upcoming films don't have very much 21:25.000 --> 21:27.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% live cinematography because we've got news reels 21:27.133 --> 21:28.400 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% and photographs. 21:28.400 --> 21:30.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Everything is calibrated so to me, 21:30.466 --> 21:33.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% each film feels unique and at the same time they're 21:33.266 --> 21:36.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% employing the same we hope honorable relationship 21:36.933 --> 21:40.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to the subject and that taking the time to do it, 21:40.233 --> 21:41.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% God bless public television, 21:41.900 --> 21:45.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that permits us to say that this style 21:45.433 --> 21:47.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% can be consistent throughout 21:47.300 --> 21:49.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and yet each one is it's own set of 21:49.800 --> 21:54.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% a single film is a million, literally, no exaggeration. 21:54.133 --> 21:56.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% A million problems, but I don't see problems in 21:56.866 --> 21:58.366 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% a pejorative sense. 21:58.366 --> 22:00.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I see it in a way to try to overcome the necessary 22:00.100 --> 22:03.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% inevitable, lawful friction that comes, like how 22:03.600 --> 22:04.400 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% do you start? 22:04.400 --> 22:05.200 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Which is the first shot? 22:05.200 --> 22:06.433 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% What's the second shot? 22:06.433 --> 22:07.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% These are all problems that you have to solve. 22:07.733 --> 22:08.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% That's what I love. 22:08.900 --> 22:10.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That's what gets me up in the morning, 22:10.133 --> 22:12.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and a series might be 10 million problems, 22:12.600 --> 22:13.966 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% but that's a good thing. 22:13.966 --> 22:16.366 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - The Robinson film is 22:16.366 --> 22:18.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Two parts, four hours. 22:18.600 --> 22:19.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Four hours total. 22:19.700 --> 22:21.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We have just a couple minutes left. 22:21.133 --> 22:22.300 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% The next things that 22:22.300 --> 22:23.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the next thing of yours that we'll see 22:23.733 --> 22:26.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Your next thing is one called Defying the Nazis, 22:26.366 --> 22:28.633 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% the Sharp War about a 22:28.633 --> 22:30.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% unitarian minister and his wife that got Jews out of 22:30.366 --> 22:32.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% just on the eve of the Holocaust, 22:32.333 --> 22:35.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and then the next thing is a big 10 episode, 22:35.500 --> 22:37.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% 18 hour history of the war in Vietnam. 22:37.733 --> 22:39.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Another big institution. 22:39.200 --> 22:42.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And you described it to me as maybe your biggest 22:42.533 --> 22:44.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Oh, it's most definitely. 22:44.133 --> 22:47.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's obviously, it's where a lot of our own 22:47.466 --> 22:49.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% inability to communicate with others, 22:49.400 --> 22:51.966 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% ourselves, metastasized, 22:51.966 --> 22:53.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and if you add that to a media culture which 22:53.633 --> 22:55.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% celebrates the independent 22:55.500 --> 22:58.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% free agentness of us all that is to say, 22:58.200 --> 23:00.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the birthplace of narcissism, 23:00.600 --> 23:04.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% you've got a terrible soup, because we don't listen to 23:04.233 --> 23:05.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% each other, we talk over each other, 23:05.766 --> 23:07.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and what I try to do is unpack the Vietnam war. 23:07.833 --> 23:09.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Almost everything you think about 23:09.500 --> 23:11.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% is probably not true. 23:11.000 --> 23:12.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I don't want you to ruin the ending for us as a spoiler, 23:12.733 --> 23:13.800 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% but we lose, right? 23:13.800 --> 23:14.366 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Is that right? 23:14.366 --> 23:15.000 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - We do. 23:15.000 --> 23:16.400 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% We do. 23:16.400 --> 23:18.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Okay good, and then you've got a big country music. 23:18.100 --> 23:19.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yep, we just opened our editing room 23:19.733 --> 23:21.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% at the beginning of the year on country music. 23:21.633 --> 23:23.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We've been filming and it was great to leave 23:23.400 --> 23:26.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the editing room on Vietnam, waist deep in the deep muddy, 23:26.300 --> 23:28.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% sometimes higher, and to go to Nashville and talk 23:28.866 --> 23:30.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% about country music which is just, 23:30.100 --> 23:32.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% as people say, three quarters of the truth. 23:32.533 --> 23:35.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% If I had my others, I like to have just straight names. 23:35.733 --> 23:37.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Civil or baseball, jazz, 23:37.600 --> 23:39.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% just to not confuse you about what it is. 23:39.766 --> 23:41.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Is Vietnam called Vietnam? 23:41.733 --> 23:42.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - The Vietnam War, 23:42.900 --> 23:45.633 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and I would call this 23:45.633 --> 23:47.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I can't stop loving you. 23:47.700 --> 23:51.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% This is sort of the epitome 23:51.766 --> 23:53.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of country music, and it is so much about 23:53.233 --> 23:58.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the sort of stripped away American values about what 23:58.200 --> 23:59.633 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% things are. 23:59.633 --> 24:01.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% My last interview was actually with Willie Nelson 24:01.266 --> 24:04.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in his bus, outside his hotel in Washington D.C. 24:04.833 --> 24:06.433 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% at rush hour. 24:06.433 --> 24:07.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - You've obviously cleaned your clothes 24:07.533 --> 24:09.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% since then, because I don't 24:09.433 --> 24:11.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well the first thing everyone asks was 24:11.600 --> 24:14.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% did I leave with a contact high? 24:14.400 --> 24:17.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% We were warned in advance that Willie would be, 24:17.500 --> 24:19.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% as he is, often as notoriously closed lipped. 24:19.633 --> 24:21.366 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% He was incredibly great, 24:21.366 --> 24:23.133 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and wonderful and 24:23.133 --> 24:24.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% help us understand - You went to him. 24:24.300 --> 24:26.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - some important people in the history, 24:26.233 --> 24:29.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and he could tell you what it meant to understand 24:29.600 --> 24:31.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% what Hank Williams was going through. 24:31.166 --> 24:33.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - You go from the early days of country all the way up 24:33.700 --> 24:35.133 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% through the 24:35.133 --> 24:36.200 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - I would say 24:36.200 --> 24:37.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - The kind of contemporary 24:37.066 --> 24:38.200 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - No, we're historians, 24:38.200 --> 24:39.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% amateur we may be. 24:39.700 --> 24:40.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - [Evan] So where do you stop? 24:40.900 --> 24:42.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - We always wanna stop or at least lift 24:42.466 --> 24:44.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% our foot off the accelerator of sort of definitive 24:44.566 --> 24:47.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% narrative about 25, 30 years out, 24:47.800 --> 24:52.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because that's the problem of journalism in near history, 24:52.066 --> 24:53.233 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% and so I imagine 24:53.233 --> 24:56.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that country music was pronounced dead, 24:56.066 --> 24:58.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and Johnny Cash was his, 24:58.466 --> 24:59.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Columbia didn't pick up his contract, 24:59.933 --> 25:01.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and everybody says he's dead, 25:01.166 --> 25:03.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and then a year later Garth Brooks 25:03.366 --> 25:04.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is filling stadiums with 60,000 people. 25:04.733 --> 25:05.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% That's a good place to go. 25:05.733 --> 25:06.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - So you stop at Garth Brooks. 25:06.900 --> 25:07.900 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - We'll see. 25:07.900 --> 25:09.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% We don't really know yet where 25:09.500 --> 25:11.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and we'll interview. 25:11.100 --> 25:12.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We've interviewed a lot of people outside 25:12.833 --> 25:14.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of country music and go up to some folks 25:14.400 --> 25:15.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who are now in country music, but we wanna be, 25:15.833 --> 25:18.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% we got a lot of criticism in baseball and jazz 25:18.933 --> 25:20.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% for not being more definitive, 25:20.233 --> 25:22.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but you go to somebody and say in jazz, 25:22.566 --> 25:25.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% tell me in the last 25 years who is the equal of Armstrong 25:25.333 --> 25:26.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and Ellington and Charlie Parker, 25:26.766 --> 25:30.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Miles Davis, and they'll say, "Well we won't know." 25:30.633 --> 25:32.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And I go, that rests my case. 25:32.233 --> 25:33.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Let me just offer you this. 25:33.700 --> 25:35.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Any film that is a history of country music in which 25:35.500 --> 25:37.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Garth Brooks is the point at which it goes black, 25:37.500 --> 25:38.366 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I'm fine with that. 25:38.366 --> 25:40.100 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (laughter) 25:40.100 --> 25:42.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Free advice, do with it what you will. 25:42.900 --> 25:44.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Ken, what a treat to get to see you, 25:44.566 --> 25:45.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to talk to you about this stuff. 25:45.966 --> 25:47.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Thank you for being here. - It's my pleasure. 25:47.133 --> 25:48.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - [Evan] Ken Burns, thank you so much. 25:48.166 --> 25:49.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Good luck with the film. 25:49.000 --> 25:51.800 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (applause) 25:51.800 --> 25:53.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Voiceover] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:53.733 --> 25:58.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Visit our website at KLRU.org/overheard 25:58.666 --> 26:01.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to find invitations to interviews, Q and As with our 26:01.066 --> 26:03.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% audience and guests, and an archive 26:03.333 --> 26:05.433 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% of past episodes. 26:05.433 --> 26:08.233 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% - Beyond country music which is coming out in 2019, 26:08.233 --> 26:10.433 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% and in addition to those five or six films 26:10.433 --> 26:11.866 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% that I've set in motion 26:11.866 --> 26:13.700 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% where I'm serving as executive producer and I'm trying 26:13.700 --> 26:15.133 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% to help other filmmakers 26:15.133 --> 26:18.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% help them with fundraising and help them with guidance 26:18.833 --> 26:20.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and stuff like that. 26:20.100 --> 26:21.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% My own stuff that we are already started working 26:21.300 --> 26:22.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% our project on Ernest Hemmingway. 26:22.933 --> 26:24.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We wanna do a history of crime and punishment. 26:24.933 --> 26:27.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Voiceover] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 26:27.566 --> 26:31.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is provided in part by MFI Foundation, 26:31.200 --> 26:34.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% improving the quality of life within our community. 26:34.500 --> 26:38.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Also by Hillco Partners, a Texas government 26:38.166 --> 26:39.733 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% affairs consultancy, 26:39.733 --> 26:42.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation.