1 00:00:01,466 --> 00:00:02,733 - [Narrator] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 2 00:00:02,733 --> 00:00:05,766 is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 3 00:00:05,766 --> 00:00:08,433 a Texas Government Affairs consultancy, 4 00:00:08,433 --> 00:00:10,933 and by Claire and Carl Stuart. 5 00:00:13,066 --> 00:00:14,866 - I'm Evan Smith, he's the publisher of 6 00:00:14,866 --> 00:00:17,566 The Federalist, a conservative online magazine, 7 00:00:17,566 --> 00:00:19,466 and the host of its popular podcast, 8 00:00:19,466 --> 00:00:21,266 the Federalist Radio Hour. 9 00:00:21,266 --> 00:00:23,366 He's Ben Domenech, this is Overheard. 10 00:00:23,366 --> 00:00:24,966 [Montage Opener] 11 00:00:24,966 --> 00:00:27,133 Let's be honest, is this about the ability 12 00:00:27,133 --> 00:00:29,333 to learn, or is this about the experience 13 00:00:29,333 --> 00:00:31,066 of not having been taught properly? 14 00:00:31,066 --> 00:00:33,233 How have you avoided what has befallen 15 00:00:33,233 --> 00:00:34,833 other nations in Africa... 16 00:00:34,833 --> 00:00:36,100 You could say that he made his own bed, 17 00:00:36,100 --> 00:00:38,000 but you caused him to sleep in it. 18 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:39,833 You know, you saw a problem, and 19 00:00:39,833 --> 00:00:41,400 over time, took it on... 20 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,600 Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 21 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:45,900 Are you going to run for president? 22 00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:48,400 I think I just got an F from you actually. 23 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:49,566 [Upbeat Music] 24 00:00:54,233 --> 00:00:55,500 Ben Domenech, welcome. 25 00:00:55,500 --> 00:00:56,933 - Good to be with you. 26 00:00:56,933 --> 00:00:58,166 - Thank you for being here. - Happy to be here. 27 00:00:58,166 --> 00:00:59,466 - We spend a lot of time, in the era 28 00:00:59,466 --> 00:01:01,733 of Donald Trump, asking the broad question, 29 00:01:01,733 --> 00:01:03,833 "Is Donald Trump good for the media business?" 30 00:01:03,833 --> 00:01:06,500 Let me be specific and ask you, if Donald Trump 31 00:01:06,500 --> 00:01:08,933 is good for the conservative media business? 32 00:01:08,933 --> 00:01:10,033 - You know, he's a challenge for the 33 00:01:10,033 --> 00:01:11,100 conservative media business. 34 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:12,300 - Why is that? 35 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:13,466 Maybe cause he's not a conservative? 36 00:01:13,466 --> 00:01:14,200 - That has something to do with it. 37 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:15,033 - Right. 38 00:01:15,033 --> 00:01:16,466 (laughter) 39 00:01:16,466 --> 00:01:18,733 - The reality is that, over the course of the past 40 00:01:18,733 --> 00:01:21,033 half century or so, the conservative media 41 00:01:21,033 --> 00:01:23,566 business and its flagship, National Review Magazine 42 00:01:23,566 --> 00:01:26,400 founded by William F. Buckley, had a particular view 43 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,133 of conservatism that they advocated for. 44 00:01:29,133 --> 00:01:30,766 A view which actually won. 45 00:01:30,766 --> 00:01:32,233 They were originally founded as a magazine 46 00:01:32,233 --> 00:01:34,933 that criticized Eisenhower, that was 47 00:01:34,933 --> 00:01:37,033 very critical at various points of Richard Nixon, 48 00:01:37,033 --> 00:01:39,700 but then saw their fulfillment in Ronald Reagan. 49 00:01:39,700 --> 00:01:42,000 - Ronald Reagan was the apex, right? 50 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,300 - Everything that they really wanted to see 51 00:01:43,300 --> 00:01:45,333 in a candidate, someone who rejected 52 00:01:45,333 --> 00:01:49,100 the Kissingerian, Nixonian view of the world, 53 00:01:49,100 --> 00:01:52,033 who believed that the cold war was something to be won. 54 00:01:52,033 --> 00:01:56,200 In the wake of that, you had this zombie Reaganism, 55 00:01:57,533 --> 00:01:59,333 according to a lot of different conservative thinkers, 56 00:01:59,333 --> 00:02:01,666 which is basically seeing the world 57 00:02:01,666 --> 00:02:06,166 in the same 1980s frame that allowed for fusionism 58 00:02:06,166 --> 00:02:08,200 of social conservatism and fiscal conservatism, 59 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,833 hawkish foreign policy to dictate the direction 60 00:02:11,833 --> 00:02:13,000 for the Republican Party. 61 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,633 A fusionism that really maintained itself 62 00:02:15,633 --> 00:02:17,200 all the way through the George W. Bush years 63 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,766 with Islamic terrorism and that force 64 00:02:19,766 --> 00:02:23,933 as the substitute for the cold war and the Soviets. 65 00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:27,966 That fusionism though, was really decaying, 66 00:02:27,966 --> 00:02:30,600 and it was something that Donald Trump exploited, 67 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,333 to great degree, because it turned out 68 00:02:32,333 --> 00:02:35,066 at the end of the day that the cohort, 69 00:02:35,066 --> 00:02:36,766 the coalition of the right 70 00:02:36,766 --> 00:02:41,166 was not this Buckleyesque, Reaganesque free trade, 71 00:02:41,166 --> 00:02:44,200 importance of maintaining global power, 72 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,800 of supporting our various allies 73 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,533 in all sorts of different ways. 74 00:02:48,533 --> 00:02:50,166 That that was something that actually was not 75 00:02:50,166 --> 00:02:52,533 the animating focus of so many people who 76 00:02:52,533 --> 00:02:54,766 made up the Republican base. 77 00:02:54,766 --> 00:02:56,500 Donald Trump exploited that to great degree 78 00:02:56,500 --> 00:03:00,333 and in part because the Republican Party deluded themselves 79 00:03:00,333 --> 00:03:02,533 into thinking that the war, the conflict 80 00:03:02,533 --> 00:03:05,033 within their ranks was between 81 00:03:05,033 --> 00:03:09,100 moderates, establishment, Chamber of Commerce Republicans, 82 00:03:09,100 --> 00:03:12,166 and conservative Constitutionalists ideologues- 83 00:03:12,166 --> 00:03:13,166 - Right, movement types. 84 00:03:13,166 --> 00:03:15,333 - Ted Cruz and the like. 85 00:03:15,333 --> 00:03:16,833 Ted Cruz ran for President believing 86 00:03:16,833 --> 00:03:18,333 that conservatives were angry, 87 00:03:18,333 --> 00:03:19,833 and what he'd actually discover 88 00:03:19,833 --> 00:03:21,566 and what Donald Trump already knew 89 00:03:21,566 --> 00:03:23,066 was that everyone was angry. 90 00:03:23,066 --> 00:03:25,466 - Yeah, I'm tempted to trot out the old adage 91 00:03:25,466 --> 00:03:27,833 that you can't beat somebody with nobody. 92 00:03:27,833 --> 00:03:32,533 Trump showed up and the conservative movement in the main 93 00:03:32,533 --> 00:03:35,233 did not really field an adequate candidate 94 00:03:35,233 --> 00:03:38,100 or any candidate to carry the anti-Trump banner, 95 00:03:38,100 --> 00:03:39,566 but you do point out Cruz. 96 00:03:39,566 --> 00:03:43,633 The fact is, you can't get more movement-y than Ted Cruz. 97 00:03:43,633 --> 00:03:45,700 It's not that the conservative wing 98 00:03:45,700 --> 00:03:47,833 of the Republican Party or the movement conservatives 99 00:03:47,833 --> 00:03:49,366 didn't show up for the game. 100 00:03:49,366 --> 00:03:51,600 They just got beat, right? 101 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,466 - Ideas don't run for President, people do. 102 00:03:54,466 --> 00:03:57,766 People have flaws that can be exploited. 103 00:03:57,766 --> 00:03:59,066 - Let's spend a little bit of time. 104 00:03:59,066 --> 00:04:00,800 I don't want you to go all Al Franken on me, 105 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,633 but let's talk about Cruz' flaws. 106 00:04:03,633 --> 00:04:08,266 - Well, I think Ted Cruz is a brilliant individual. 107 00:04:08,266 --> 00:04:10,466 He's an extremely smart person. 108 00:04:10,466 --> 00:04:13,300 But I also think that he is someone who does not necessarily 109 00:04:13,300 --> 00:04:16,166 have the gift for the common touch, 110 00:04:16,166 --> 00:04:17,433 the ability to connect- 111 00:04:17,433 --> 00:04:19,700 (laughter) 112 00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:21,466 - You don't say, you don't think at Princeton 113 00:04:21,466 --> 00:04:23,700 or Harvard, he learned how to be a common person? 114 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:27,100 - There's an anecdote about Richard Nixon 115 00:04:29,300 --> 00:04:30,766 pulling over on the side of the road, 116 00:04:30,766 --> 00:04:33,566 running up to a police officer who's lying on the ground 117 00:04:33,566 --> 00:04:36,566 after a car wreck that he had been sort of affected by 118 00:04:36,566 --> 00:04:38,400 and Nixon runs up to him, puts out his hand, 119 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,466 shakes his hand and says, "Well do you enjoy your job?" 120 00:04:42,466 --> 00:04:44,700 Richard Nixon was someone afflicted by- 121 00:04:44,700 --> 00:04:46,900 - Empathy deficit. 122 00:04:46,900 --> 00:04:49,833 - Exactly, an inability to connect with common people. 123 00:04:49,833 --> 00:04:53,833 I actually think that Ted is a guy who's very smart, 124 00:04:53,833 --> 00:04:57,966 and I think that he will probably become someone, 125 00:04:57,966 --> 00:05:00,633 a figure along the lines of Jesse Helms in the Senate. 126 00:05:00,633 --> 00:05:01,666 Ultimately, someone who- 127 00:05:01,666 --> 00:05:02,933 - You mean that as a compliment? 128 00:05:02,933 --> 00:05:05,433 - Well, I mean that in terms of someone 129 00:05:05,433 --> 00:05:08,433 who will have an out-sized impact on the body. 130 00:05:08,433 --> 00:05:11,233 - So I wanna understand Trump not as a contrast to Cruz 131 00:05:11,233 --> 00:05:14,733 or anybody else, but Trump in his own way. 132 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,666 What is he about really? 133 00:05:17,666 --> 00:05:19,933 Did we see in the campaign the real Trump? 134 00:05:19,933 --> 00:05:24,933 Did we see a reality show version of the real guy, 135 00:05:24,933 --> 00:05:28,466 essentially a hyped up entertainment celebrity 136 00:05:28,466 --> 00:05:30,266 masquerading as a real person? 137 00:05:30,266 --> 00:05:32,900 I've wondered over the last since whatever it is, 138 00:05:32,900 --> 00:05:35,033 June of 2015 when he descended that escalator 139 00:05:35,033 --> 00:05:36,766 and talked about Mexican rapists. 140 00:05:36,766 --> 00:05:39,900 From that day forward, I've wondered 141 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:41,833 who's the real Trump? 142 00:05:41,833 --> 00:05:43,033 What is the real Trump? 143 00:05:43,033 --> 00:05:45,300 Do you have a sense? 144 00:05:45,300 --> 00:05:48,033 - The real Trump is a man who is a traitor to his class 145 00:05:48,033 --> 00:05:49,633 because he has a chip on his shoulder 146 00:05:49,633 --> 00:05:51,800 because he felt that he was never accepted 147 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:53,366 by the New York elite. 148 00:05:53,366 --> 00:05:54,833 There's an alternate history 149 00:05:54,833 --> 00:05:57,633 that you could actually consider within this realm. 150 00:05:57,633 --> 00:06:00,700 The easy way to look at it is actually to look at the 151 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:03,533 attempt by Donald Trump to buy an NFL franchise. 152 00:06:03,533 --> 00:06:05,500 He tried very hard to do that. 153 00:06:05,500 --> 00:06:06,766 He was rejected by the owners, 154 00:06:06,766 --> 00:06:08,033 they have the ability to do that. 155 00:06:08,033 --> 00:06:11,533 His response to that was to buy a USFL franchise 156 00:06:11,533 --> 00:06:14,666 and then sue the NFL to try to force them 157 00:06:14,666 --> 00:06:16,433 to essentially let him in. 158 00:06:16,433 --> 00:06:18,533 He won that case but because everyone on the jury 159 00:06:18,533 --> 00:06:20,033 thought that he was a very rich man, 160 00:06:20,033 --> 00:06:23,833 they awarded him one dollar plus interest in payment. 161 00:06:23,833 --> 00:06:26,433 There is an alternate universe in Earth Two 162 00:06:26,433 --> 00:06:28,433 or what have you, Evan, where Donald Trump 163 00:06:28,433 --> 00:06:30,600 gets that franchise, is accepted by the broader 164 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,433 immediate landscape and New York elite, 165 00:06:32,433 --> 00:06:33,900 and never runs for President 166 00:06:33,900 --> 00:06:36,900 because he has something else to take away his time. 167 00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:39,166 I view Trump as someone who 168 00:06:40,533 --> 00:06:44,633 is a very canny exploiter of cultural trends. 169 00:06:44,633 --> 00:06:46,200 That is what I believe he has done 170 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:47,733 throughout his entire career. 171 00:06:47,733 --> 00:06:50,800 I think that he did that in this most recent election. 172 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,966 He picked certain things as cultural signifiers to people. 173 00:06:56,333 --> 00:06:57,566 He embraced them. 174 00:06:57,566 --> 00:06:59,766 I think more important than anything else, 175 00:06:59,766 --> 00:07:03,766 what he actually did was he changed something significant 176 00:07:03,766 --> 00:07:06,733 about the way that politicians relate to the media. 177 00:07:06,733 --> 00:07:08,000 If you go back a couple of years ago, 178 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,566 I remember this interview 179 00:07:09,566 --> 00:07:12,400 that Marco Rubio gave to BuzzFeed. 180 00:07:13,666 --> 00:07:14,866 He went into the BuzzFeed offices, 181 00:07:14,866 --> 00:07:17,433 obviously this is Marco Rubio post-2012, 182 00:07:17,433 --> 00:07:20,900 setting up his, oh I'm the new hip thing. 183 00:07:20,900 --> 00:07:22,366 - Nascent. 184 00:07:22,366 --> 00:07:24,500 - I have opinions about rap, talk to me about that, 185 00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:25,433 that sort of thing. 186 00:07:25,433 --> 00:07:27,000 I can connect with the children. 187 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,466 - I'm the young candidate. 188 00:07:28,466 --> 00:07:29,666 Yesterday's gone, tomorrow is going, (crosstalk). 189 00:07:29,666 --> 00:07:32,466 - Exactly, he goes into the BuzzFeed offices 190 00:07:32,466 --> 00:07:34,300 and within a few questions of the beginning 191 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:37,600 of the interview, they start asking him questions 192 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,766 about Christianity and creationism and evolution 193 00:07:40,766 --> 00:07:43,233 and all these other things. 194 00:07:43,233 --> 00:07:45,433 Rubio being the polite guy that he is, 195 00:07:45,433 --> 00:07:48,366 is sort of trying to be nice about things. 196 00:07:48,366 --> 00:07:49,833 They're trying to get him to say things 197 00:07:49,833 --> 00:07:52,133 that basically dis his supporters. 198 00:07:52,133 --> 00:07:54,166 I remember sending that around to a group of friends 199 00:07:54,166 --> 00:07:56,733 and having a comment from someone that said, 200 00:07:56,733 --> 00:08:01,033 you know, I wish that his response to this would have been 201 00:08:01,033 --> 00:08:03,633 yes, I believe in a god who created the world, 202 00:08:03,633 --> 00:08:06,366 was born of a virgin, and died for my sins. 203 00:08:06,366 --> 00:08:08,633 Do you have a problem with that? 204 00:08:08,633 --> 00:08:10,633 That's the kind of thing that I think conservatives 205 00:08:10,633 --> 00:08:13,133 wanted to see, they want to see the rejection 206 00:08:13,133 --> 00:08:15,000 of the premise of the question, 207 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,233 that just sort of says, 208 00:08:16,233 --> 00:08:17,900 I should feel bad about believing 209 00:08:17,900 --> 00:08:19,966 what traditional Christians believe about these things. 210 00:08:19,966 --> 00:08:21,933 - Who prevented the conservative movement 211 00:08:21,933 --> 00:08:24,266 from fielding such a candidate in the last election? 212 00:08:24,266 --> 00:08:27,000 I seem to remember a guy named Rubio, actually, 213 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,400 might have been him, but there were 214 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:29,633 a bunch of other people in there. 215 00:08:29,633 --> 00:08:32,233 Again, you go down the list of the 17 who ran. 216 00:08:32,233 --> 00:08:34,233 Let's stipulate Trump is not a traditional conservative, 217 00:08:34,233 --> 00:08:35,666 or maybe even a Republican. 218 00:08:35,666 --> 00:08:37,133 - Yes. 219 00:08:37,133 --> 00:08:38,433 - But of the other 16, there are a bunch in there 220 00:08:38,433 --> 00:08:39,933 who seem like they could have been that person. 221 00:08:39,933 --> 00:08:42,433 - There's a connective thread that runs through the past 222 00:08:42,433 --> 00:08:46,700 several elections that I think we didn't fully appreciate. 223 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:48,600 Pat Buchanan runs for President in '92, 224 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,700 he runs for President in '96. 225 00:08:50,700 --> 00:08:54,866 You have the surprising success of Mike Huckabee in 2008. 226 00:08:56,233 --> 00:08:59,466 You have the surprising success of Rick Santorum in 2012. 227 00:08:59,466 --> 00:09:02,066 What they had all in common was a populist economic message 228 00:09:02,066 --> 00:09:04,833 that broke with Republican orthodoxy on trade, 229 00:09:04,833 --> 00:09:06,533 on a number of other issues related to that, 230 00:09:06,533 --> 00:09:10,500 on unions, but what distracted us about them, of course, 231 00:09:10,500 --> 00:09:12,033 is that they were all Bible-believing 232 00:09:12,033 --> 00:09:14,400 Christians, Catholics, evangelicals. 233 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,000 So the questions they got asked on the trail 234 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,366 typically turned very quickly to abortion, birth control, 235 00:09:20,366 --> 00:09:22,666 all these other sort of cultural issues. 236 00:09:22,666 --> 00:09:24,733 But I think what we did was we underestimated 237 00:09:24,733 --> 00:09:28,166 the power and the appeal of their protectionist, 238 00:09:28,166 --> 00:09:31,000 pro-union, anti-free trade message 239 00:09:32,366 --> 00:09:33,766 within this Republican (crosstalk). 240 00:09:33,766 --> 00:09:35,566 - That was really the gas in the engine. 241 00:09:35,566 --> 00:09:36,400 - Exactly. 242 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:37,833 - It turns out. 243 00:09:37,833 --> 00:09:40,966 - What Trump did was basically he embraced that message 244 00:09:40,966 --> 00:09:42,666 because it's not really all that different from- 245 00:09:42,666 --> 00:09:43,933 - Did he do that consciously? 246 00:09:43,933 --> 00:09:45,200 I mean honestly, I'm hearing you say this 247 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,000 and I'm thinking that's pretty smart. 248 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,833 It's pretty canny and pretty savvy 249 00:09:48,833 --> 00:09:51,033 in a way that he's not been given adequate credit for. 250 00:09:51,033 --> 00:09:53,033 - I will just say, that is probably the thing 251 00:09:53,033 --> 00:09:54,733 he's been the most consistent on. 252 00:09:54,733 --> 00:09:56,833 If you go back and you read what he was saying in the 1980s, 253 00:09:56,833 --> 00:09:58,333 he was still saying that same thing. 254 00:09:58,333 --> 00:10:00,100 - And of course, who else is carrying that flag 255 00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:02,033 and running down the field, Steve Bannon. 256 00:10:02,033 --> 00:10:02,966 - Yes. 257 00:10:02,966 --> 00:10:04,366 - So Steve Bannon comes aboard 258 00:10:04,366 --> 00:10:07,500 and Steve Bannon is affirming with his presence 259 00:10:07,500 --> 00:10:10,100 and his words and deeds, the same economic nationalism 260 00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:11,766 message that Trump is himself 261 00:10:11,766 --> 00:10:13,600 out there carrying the flag for. 262 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,100 It's a match made in heaven. 263 00:10:15,100 --> 00:10:18,200 - Yeah, I mean, look, I do not agree with this message. 264 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,133 I'm as absolutist on free trade 265 00:10:21,133 --> 00:10:23,300 as I think you'd find anybody, 266 00:10:23,300 --> 00:10:26,666 but I am also of the opinion that the case for free trade 267 00:10:26,666 --> 00:10:29,533 has been something that Republican politicians 268 00:10:29,533 --> 00:10:32,966 have failed to make with their own base for decades. 269 00:10:32,966 --> 00:10:34,366 It's one that I think really caught up 270 00:10:34,366 --> 00:10:35,633 with them in this election. 271 00:10:35,633 --> 00:10:38,166 The truth is, if you look at Bannon 272 00:10:38,166 --> 00:10:40,900 and if you look at this connective tissue, 273 00:10:40,900 --> 00:10:42,166 there are a lot of things 274 00:10:42,166 --> 00:10:43,466 he has in common with Pat Buchanan. 275 00:10:43,466 --> 00:10:47,100 It turned out that that thread of populist 276 00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:51,300 pro-union, anti-free trade sort of things 277 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:52,900 really had a lot of power. 278 00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:55,066 I remember being in Cleveland and expecting 279 00:10:55,066 --> 00:10:56,433 that there would be all sorts of protests. 280 00:10:56,433 --> 00:10:59,000 I was at the convention in 2008 281 00:11:00,266 --> 00:11:02,466 and got tear gassed along with some of 282 00:11:02,466 --> 00:11:05,033 the anti-globalist protestors 283 00:11:05,033 --> 00:11:06,800 that were outside of that convention. 284 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,500 I expected something along those lines. 285 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:10,733 - But it turns out that the protests against globalism 286 00:11:10,733 --> 00:11:11,733 were in the hall. 287 00:11:11,733 --> 00:11:13,333 - Exactly, that's the thing. 288 00:11:13,333 --> 00:11:16,166 What was so notable was the unions weren't there. 289 00:11:16,166 --> 00:11:18,366 There was no real powerful (crosstalk). 290 00:11:18,366 --> 00:11:20,233 - Let me ask you about this idea of globalism. 291 00:11:20,233 --> 00:11:23,466 Globalism is often viewed as a code word for anti-Semitism. 292 00:11:23,466 --> 00:11:27,866 So when Breitbart writes about economic nationalism- 293 00:11:27,866 --> 00:11:29,033 - It puts those little globes. 294 00:11:29,033 --> 00:11:30,566 - They put little globes around the name. 295 00:11:30,566 --> 00:11:32,300 You know, they write about Gary Cohn 296 00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:34,000 and they write about other people in the administration 297 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,100 in a way that causes people, fairly or unfairly, 298 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:39,100 to think that it's a short walk from economic nationalism 299 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:41,500 to globalism to anti-Semitism. 300 00:11:41,500 --> 00:11:42,766 Is that a fair knock? 301 00:11:42,766 --> 00:11:44,100 - I don't think it's a fair knock 302 00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:46,066 but I also understand why people would see it. 303 00:11:46,066 --> 00:11:47,566 I certainly don't know the people 304 00:11:47,566 --> 00:11:49,100 who are writing those pieces well enough 305 00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:52,833 to tell whether they actually hold those views or not. 306 00:11:52,833 --> 00:11:54,766 The fact is, that the revolt against globalism 307 00:11:54,766 --> 00:11:56,733 is not unique to America. 308 00:11:56,733 --> 00:11:58,333 It's something that we see in Brexit. 309 00:11:58,333 --> 00:11:59,833 It's something that we see in Spain right now 310 00:11:59,833 --> 00:12:02,166 in the Catalonian sort of difficulties. 311 00:12:02,166 --> 00:12:04,066 It's something that we've seen in the backlash 312 00:12:04,066 --> 00:12:06,733 against the kind of EU project 313 00:12:06,733 --> 00:12:10,600 that has led to a significant degree of stability. 314 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,300 It's a little impolitic but the fact is that the EU 315 00:12:13,300 --> 00:12:15,900 is about allowing Germany to run Europe 316 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:18,166 without actually fighting a war (crosstalk). 317 00:12:18,166 --> 00:12:21,500 - But Ben, is it realistic though to expect 318 00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:22,966 that in a world that's increasingly global 319 00:12:22,966 --> 00:12:24,766 and increasingly inter-connected, 320 00:12:24,766 --> 00:12:27,133 where borders are coming down not going up, 321 00:12:27,133 --> 00:12:30,866 that we're now going to retreat like an old Italian town 322 00:12:30,866 --> 00:12:34,400 behind high walls with people atop and boiling oil 323 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,800 that they're going to pour on the invading hordes. 324 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,466 We're turning into San Gimignano (crosstalk). 325 00:12:39,466 --> 00:12:40,400 I mean, we're really are. 326 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:41,366 It sounds like what we're doing 327 00:12:41,366 --> 00:12:43,800 is going back to a time long ago 328 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:45,133 when the world was a different place 329 00:12:45,133 --> 00:12:48,466 and we were a different piece of that puzzle. 330 00:12:48,466 --> 00:12:51,666 That's the pushback often against this view. 331 00:12:51,666 --> 00:12:53,866 - The most powerful motivation I think 332 00:12:53,866 --> 00:12:56,266 in American life is nostalgia. 333 00:12:56,266 --> 00:12:58,900 The truth is that nostalgia fools you. 334 00:12:58,900 --> 00:13:00,466 You forget the fact that you know, 335 00:13:00,466 --> 00:13:03,000 even if you had this sort of false sense of stability, 336 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,633 when you were a child in the 50s or 60s 337 00:13:05,633 --> 00:13:08,800 and there was this trust in great institutions 338 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,166 and corporations, et cetera. 339 00:13:10,166 --> 00:13:11,633 You forget the fact that your parents 340 00:13:11,633 --> 00:13:14,966 had to save money for a year to buy a refrigerator. 341 00:13:14,966 --> 00:13:17,866 We live in a time now where you cannot 342 00:13:17,866 --> 00:13:18,966 unring that globalist bell. 343 00:13:18,966 --> 00:13:20,333 - Or honestly, it's fake, 344 00:13:20,333 --> 00:13:22,666 I refer to this as a restoration hardware problem. 345 00:13:22,666 --> 00:13:25,433 We're all nostalgic for a time that never existed, right. 346 00:13:25,433 --> 00:13:26,866 - This is true, but think- 347 00:13:26,866 --> 00:13:29,500 - But that fake nostalgia actually is nonetheless fueling 348 00:13:29,500 --> 00:13:31,333 these decisions that we make politically. 349 00:13:31,333 --> 00:13:32,533 - But think about the experience 350 00:13:32,533 --> 00:13:34,033 of someone in America today. 351 00:13:34,033 --> 00:13:37,466 We have more working-age males in America 352 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,666 who are out of the workforce 353 00:13:40,666 --> 00:13:42,700 then at any time since the end of the Great Depression. 354 00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:45,200 Okay, these are people who have 355 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,166 more than anything else, gotten onto the disability system 356 00:13:48,166 --> 00:13:49,666 as a substitute for unemployment. 357 00:13:49,666 --> 00:13:53,666 They are subsisting on essentially $1200 a month, 358 00:13:53,666 --> 00:13:56,400 which gives you the ability to self-medicate 359 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,100 with either alcohol or opioids or something else. 360 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:02,433 You sit on a couch and you watch TV, 361 00:14:02,433 --> 00:14:04,500 and this golden-haired man comes on. 362 00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:07,300 He tells you it's not your fault that your life sucks. 363 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:09,066 It's not your fault that you're sitting there 364 00:14:09,066 --> 00:14:10,266 and you're viewing all these celebrities 365 00:14:10,266 --> 00:14:11,866 whose lives you can never aspire to. 366 00:14:11,866 --> 00:14:13,200 It's the fault of immigrants, 367 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:14,833 it's the fault of politicians, 368 00:14:14,833 --> 00:14:18,566 it's the fault of bad trade deals and wars based on lies. 369 00:14:18,566 --> 00:14:21,766 He says, that's okay, I can fix it. 370 00:14:21,766 --> 00:14:25,900 I alone can fix it, okay, and you listen. 371 00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:27,733 - I want to walk over from economic nationalism 372 00:14:27,733 --> 00:14:30,366 to white nationalism, because to the degree 373 00:14:30,366 --> 00:14:32,400 that economic nationalism has been a narrative thread 374 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,466 of the last nine months, so in a more recent sense 375 00:14:35,466 --> 00:14:37,066 has white nationalism been. 376 00:14:37,066 --> 00:14:40,600 Do you think that the country has suddenly become racist, 377 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,666 or that elements of the country have become racist, 378 00:14:42,666 --> 00:14:44,100 you know, as the knock, 379 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:47,166 or that it was always there sub rosa, 380 00:14:47,166 --> 00:14:50,233 and that Donald Trump through his actions and words 381 00:14:50,233 --> 00:14:53,000 has given license for those who believe things 382 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,300 that were not said out loud, to now say them out loud 383 00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:57,100 and so we're more aware of it? 384 00:14:57,100 --> 00:14:59,933 - I think as, first off let me just say, 385 00:14:59,933 --> 00:15:03,333 I'm Puerto Rican and I've written in public 386 00:15:03,333 --> 00:15:06,366 for quite some time, and if you are Hispanic 387 00:15:06,366 --> 00:15:08,133 or you have any Hispanic tendencies, 388 00:15:08,133 --> 00:15:10,966 then you are very familiar with the racists on the right. 389 00:15:10,966 --> 00:15:13,566 So I knew about Richard Spencer and all these other folks 390 00:15:13,566 --> 00:15:17,466 10 years ago, because that was when they were writing about 391 00:15:17,466 --> 00:15:20,100 me and my family and the Hispanic employees that I have 392 00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:22,833 in ways that were nasty and awful. 393 00:15:22,833 --> 00:15:25,233 I think we just frankly pay a lot more attention to it now. 394 00:15:25,233 --> 00:15:26,633 I think they were always there. 395 00:15:26,633 --> 00:15:28,500 It's just that before we never connected it 396 00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:30,800 to a broader movement that was having an impact 397 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,100 on the way that we lived, 398 00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:33,533 or certainly who was in the White House. 399 00:15:33,533 --> 00:15:35,333 I think that instead, now people are saying, 400 00:15:35,333 --> 00:15:38,433 well this is of the same, or this is the same piece. 401 00:15:38,433 --> 00:15:40,933 The danger of course there, is the fact is 402 00:15:40,933 --> 00:15:42,666 that Donald Trump has more than 403 00:15:42,666 --> 00:15:44,566 60 million people who voted for him. 404 00:15:44,566 --> 00:15:46,466 Those people are not white supremacists. 405 00:15:46,466 --> 00:15:47,666 They are not all white supremacists, 406 00:15:47,666 --> 00:15:49,166 they are not all white nationalists. 407 00:15:49,166 --> 00:15:50,933 They did not vote for him for that reason. 408 00:15:50,933 --> 00:15:52,300 White college-educated women 409 00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:54,066 did not vote for him for that reason. 410 00:15:54,066 --> 00:15:58,600 The fact is that he won votes from more black Americans 411 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,933 and more Hispanic Americans than Mitt Romney did, 412 00:16:00,933 --> 00:16:02,200 but he didn't do that 413 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,033 because of the appeal of white nationalism. 414 00:16:04,033 --> 00:16:07,033 I think the fact is that these people were always there, 415 00:16:07,033 --> 00:16:08,766 but now we're connecting them 416 00:16:08,766 --> 00:16:10,700 with a broader trend in American society, 417 00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:12,933 which is very dangerous, and which I think 418 00:16:12,933 --> 00:16:15,933 deserves the kind of criticism that it's getting. 419 00:16:15,933 --> 00:16:18,800 But then it's leading us to make the false conclusion 420 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,166 that those people are connected 421 00:16:20,166 --> 00:16:22,066 with the rest of the President's base 422 00:16:22,066 --> 00:16:23,700 in a way that I think unfortunately, 423 00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:25,666 smears a lot of Americans. 424 00:16:25,666 --> 00:16:27,666 - It's a subset, but it's a subset over here. 425 00:16:27,666 --> 00:16:29,733 It's not co-mingled with (crosstalk). 426 00:16:29,733 --> 00:16:31,066 - It's an extremist subset. 427 00:16:31,066 --> 00:16:32,733 I mean, I connected him to Pat Buchanan 428 00:16:32,733 --> 00:16:35,200 and certainly there's a subset of anti-Semites 429 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,433 who supported Pat Buchanan. 430 00:16:36,433 --> 00:16:37,633 - You remember the old Molly Ivins line 431 00:16:37,633 --> 00:16:39,500 about the Buchanan speech in '92, 432 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:41,566 it was better in the original German, remember that? 433 00:16:41,566 --> 00:16:43,500 - I do remember that line. 434 00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:46,333 I do remember that line, but I would also urge you 435 00:16:46,333 --> 00:16:48,200 to go back and watch that speech again. 436 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,400 Because I would suggest to you that what he is actually 437 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,600 sort of saying is something that played out 438 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,166 over the next two decades. 439 00:16:57,166 --> 00:17:00,700 - It was the lead up, the run up to the culture war 440 00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:02,200 which was then the run up to this. 441 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,366 - Yes, and what both he and Huckabee to a degree, 442 00:17:05,366 --> 00:17:08,600 but Santorum certainly, argued through their whole careers 443 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,133 was we are on the slippery slope 444 00:17:11,133 --> 00:17:14,866 that is going to lead us to a point where America rejects 445 00:17:14,866 --> 00:17:18,133 Christianity and the founding and our history 446 00:17:18,133 --> 00:17:20,700 and views them all as being affected by 447 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:23,100 an original sin of racism and bigotry 448 00:17:23,100 --> 00:17:24,633 and all of these other things. 449 00:17:24,633 --> 00:17:27,166 That's going to lead people to try to destroy the past, 450 00:17:27,166 --> 00:17:30,266 knock down monuments, and rip up the Constitution. 451 00:17:30,266 --> 00:17:33,233 Basically, that's the subset of what they've been arguing. 452 00:17:33,233 --> 00:17:34,333 - And like hey. 453 00:17:34,333 --> 00:17:35,833 - And they feel vindicated now. 454 00:17:35,833 --> 00:17:36,966 They feel vindicated. 455 00:17:36,966 --> 00:17:38,366 - On the subject of race, 456 00:17:38,366 --> 00:17:40,333 a question very much of the moment, 457 00:17:40,333 --> 00:17:42,766 is Colin Kaepernick is a son of a bitch? 458 00:17:42,766 --> 00:17:46,033 - (laughs) No, I think he has a very nice family. 459 00:17:46,033 --> 00:17:48,600 - Well, you know, Mrs. Kaepernick objected enormously 460 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,533 to the President's characterization. 461 00:17:50,533 --> 00:17:51,800 - I will just say- 462 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,400 - Because everyone's on Twitter, she tweeted it. 463 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,000 - I actually like Colin Kaepernick. 464 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,600 I paid a lot of attention to him coming out 465 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,966 because I actually wanted my own home team, 466 00:17:59,966 --> 00:18:02,033 the Washington R-Words, to draft him. 467 00:18:02,033 --> 00:18:06,433 But I think that the truth is, when I look at Kaepernick, 468 00:18:06,433 --> 00:18:10,800 I see a guy who I think has made an error of judgment. 469 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,433 The reason is that I think that his expression of protest 470 00:18:15,433 --> 00:18:17,833 sends a message that he doesn't intend it to send. 471 00:18:17,833 --> 00:18:21,033 I think that he wants to protest because of what he sees 472 00:18:21,033 --> 00:18:24,533 as a problem of police action and violence 473 00:18:26,733 --> 00:18:29,166 and danger to black Americans. 474 00:18:29,166 --> 00:18:30,833 - Are you sympathetic to that? 475 00:18:30,833 --> 00:18:31,766 - I am sympathetic. 476 00:18:31,766 --> 00:18:32,933 - You're a criminal justice guy. 477 00:18:32,933 --> 00:18:35,933 This is of particular interest, yeah. 478 00:18:35,933 --> 00:18:39,466 - I think the truth is that the cops we have, 479 00:18:39,466 --> 00:18:41,200 I think try to do a good job 480 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,000 but many of them are not trained 481 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,433 to the degree they need to be. 482 00:18:44,433 --> 00:18:46,133 They certainly do not practice with their weapons 483 00:18:46,133 --> 00:18:47,633 to the degree they need to be, 484 00:18:47,633 --> 00:18:50,933 and are way too quick to pull I think on a lot of people, 485 00:18:50,933 --> 00:18:53,633 that otherwise might survive if they behaved 486 00:18:53,633 --> 00:18:56,000 with more of an approach to 487 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,133 trying to de-escalate a situation. 488 00:18:58,133 --> 00:19:01,033 I also think frankly, we have far too many laws. 489 00:19:01,033 --> 00:19:04,200 There's too much opportunity for a cop 490 00:19:05,566 --> 00:19:07,866 to come in conflict with someone today. 491 00:19:07,866 --> 00:19:09,466 I think particularly of the situation 492 00:19:09,466 --> 00:19:11,300 in Baltimore with Freddie Gray. 493 00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:15,233 I happen to carry a knife typically in my pocket. 494 00:19:15,233 --> 00:19:16,700 - Well it's good because here in Texas now, 495 00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:20,800 as of September 1st, you can open-carry knives. 496 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,466 Just take it out, just put it on the table. 497 00:19:23,466 --> 00:19:24,666 - It's in my bag unfortunately 498 00:19:24,666 --> 00:19:28,266 because I didn't expect to have this out but 499 00:19:30,766 --> 00:19:32,666 I was very upset to learn that frankly, 500 00:19:32,666 --> 00:19:34,766 that the type of knife that I carry 501 00:19:34,766 --> 00:19:36,533 was very close to the same type of knife 502 00:19:36,533 --> 00:19:38,066 that Freddie Gray carried. 503 00:19:38,066 --> 00:19:40,100 He should not have even been arrested for carrying that. 504 00:19:40,100 --> 00:19:41,500 It was actually legal for him to carry. 505 00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:43,400 But because it was carried- 506 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:44,800 - So you're sympathetic in a general sense 507 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,433 to the Kaepernick argument that (crosstalk). 508 00:19:47,433 --> 00:19:50,466 - The problem is, and I think particularly 509 00:19:50,466 --> 00:19:55,100 you can look at Martin Luther King's speech on this. 510 00:19:55,100 --> 00:19:58,966 MLK's speech did not criticize America 511 00:19:58,966 --> 00:20:00,733 for its founding or for its principles. 512 00:20:00,733 --> 00:20:04,366 What it said is, America is great. 513 00:20:04,366 --> 00:20:06,266 I would like to be included in that 514 00:20:06,266 --> 00:20:08,066 and I have not been to this point. 515 00:20:08,066 --> 00:20:09,933 I think that is a much more convincing, 516 00:20:09,933 --> 00:20:11,633 and if you look back at most civil rights leaders, 517 00:20:11,633 --> 00:20:13,166 the ones who've been most successful, 518 00:20:13,166 --> 00:20:16,366 have been the ones who don't say America is a bad place, 519 00:20:16,366 --> 00:20:19,733 it's terrible, that you need to feel guilty about it, 520 00:20:19,733 --> 00:20:21,800 et cetera, and there's nothing that can be done 521 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,300 to really assuage that. 522 00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:26,333 Instead they say, we want to be fully included in it. 523 00:20:26,333 --> 00:20:28,233 I think that's something that Kaepernick 524 00:20:28,233 --> 00:20:29,833 could have done in a lot of different ways. 525 00:20:29,833 --> 00:20:32,333 Instead, it reads to so many different NFL fans 526 00:20:32,333 --> 00:20:33,600 who don't pay attention to what he says 527 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,966 or what he does off the field. 528 00:20:35,966 --> 00:20:37,233 They just look at it and say, 529 00:20:37,233 --> 00:20:38,766 why does this guy hate my country? 530 00:20:38,766 --> 00:20:40,666 - Well there is of course this additional question 531 00:20:40,666 --> 00:20:43,533 of conservatives being in favor of small government 532 00:20:43,533 --> 00:20:46,166 and leaving business alone. 533 00:20:46,166 --> 00:20:48,966 The President deciding that because of the offense 534 00:20:48,966 --> 00:20:50,366 he's taken at Colin Kaepernick, 535 00:20:50,366 --> 00:20:52,033 saying on Twitter and elsewhere, 536 00:20:52,033 --> 00:20:55,100 I think that the NFL owners should fire players 537 00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:58,366 who take a knee, and who dishonor our flag, 538 00:20:58,366 --> 00:21:00,266 and I think that this person should be fired. 539 00:21:00,266 --> 00:21:02,000 In the same way that a couple weeks ago, 540 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,800 we had an ESPN on-air personality 541 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,000 who made comments that were disparaging of the President, 542 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,366 in response to comments that he made 543 00:21:10,366 --> 00:21:13,400 disparaging of her race, she believed. 544 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,200 The Press Secretary for the White House, 545 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,933 Sarah Huckabee Sanders, came out and said, 546 00:21:16,933 --> 00:21:19,133 we believe that ESPN should fire this person. 547 00:21:19,133 --> 00:21:22,400 Is there a conflict, you're a small government conservative. 548 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:23,933 Do you want the President and the White House 549 00:21:23,933 --> 00:21:26,566 dictating to private businesses who they can employ? 550 00:21:26,566 --> 00:21:28,066 - Of course not. 551 00:21:28,066 --> 00:21:29,833 - The First Amendment gives you the right to be wrong 552 00:21:29,833 --> 00:21:31,366 or to be a jackass, doesn't it. 553 00:21:31,366 --> 00:21:32,933 - Of course it does. 554 00:21:32,933 --> 00:21:36,500 I will just say I'm not a big fan of Jemele Hill, 555 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:40,000 not because of what she said about the President 556 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,966 in her view being a white supremacist, 557 00:21:41,966 --> 00:21:45,566 but simply that her hour is down 20% in the ratings. 558 00:21:45,566 --> 00:21:48,200 That's I think the bigger problem for ESPN. 559 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:49,600 - In the end, it's all about the ratings. 560 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,333 To that point, let me take a short walk 561 00:21:51,333 --> 00:21:53,033 over to the President's own ratings. 562 00:21:53,033 --> 00:21:54,866 There's a Washington Post/ABC News poll 563 00:21:54,866 --> 00:21:56,766 out this very day that has the President 564 00:21:56,766 --> 00:22:00,866 at 39% approval, which is the lowest point in 71 years 565 00:22:00,866 --> 00:22:04,733 for a President at this point in his presidency. 566 00:22:04,733 --> 00:22:06,033 And yet. 567 00:22:06,033 --> 00:22:07,633 - And yet. 568 00:22:07,633 --> 00:22:09,633 - And yet, there's absolutely no sign 569 00:22:09,633 --> 00:22:12,400 that the base that elected him is deserting him in droves. 570 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,633 There's no sign that the members of Congress, 571 00:22:15,633 --> 00:22:16,733 particularly of his party, 572 00:22:16,733 --> 00:22:19,766 are in any way empowered to thwart him. 573 00:22:19,766 --> 00:22:24,400 In fact, if anything, they seem to be cowering. 574 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:25,900 He's making deals with Chuck and Nancy. 575 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:27,900 - Yes, well he likes Chuck. 576 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:29,766 They're from the boroughs. - America's fun couple. 577 00:22:29,766 --> 00:22:31,200 - He gave Chuck money for years. 578 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,900 - Right, they're from the crappy boroughs, in fact, right. 579 00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:35,233 It's even better, and as someone 580 00:22:35,233 --> 00:22:39,000 who is from a crappy borough, I can say that. 581 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:42,766 I'm a self-hating crappy borough native. 582 00:22:42,766 --> 00:22:43,966 (laughter) 583 00:22:43,966 --> 00:22:45,466 No, no, but the point is, I mean really, 584 00:22:45,466 --> 00:22:48,000 what's remarkable is the polls are as bad as they are, 585 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,000 and everyone's mad at him and up in his grill, 586 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,900 and he's just blithely doing his thing. 587 00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:54,433 - You know, the funny thing is, Evan, 588 00:22:54,433 --> 00:22:55,533 and I don't know that this was actually his rating 589 00:22:55,533 --> 00:22:56,933 in the Washington Post/ABC poll, 590 00:22:56,933 --> 00:22:59,333 but his rating in a number of other polls 591 00:22:59,333 --> 00:23:02,866 on election day was 39%, in terms of his own approval. 592 00:23:02,866 --> 00:23:05,100 - So maybe that's the low end of his base. 593 00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:06,900 - So here's the thing that I think 594 00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:09,066 is very interesting about this moment. 595 00:23:09,066 --> 00:23:11,733 Imagine if the Russia investigation had not 596 00:23:11,733 --> 00:23:16,000 created a toxic environment for Donald Trump from day one. 597 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,900 Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, they come into the White House 598 00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:19,166 and they had told him, 599 00:23:19,166 --> 00:23:20,466 they know according to multiple reports, 600 00:23:20,466 --> 00:23:24,433 they said, you will have a repeal bill by Easter, 601 00:23:24,433 --> 00:23:26,833 you will have a tax bill by August, 602 00:23:26,833 --> 00:23:29,166 and you will have an infrastructure bill by Christmas. 603 00:23:29,166 --> 00:23:30,400 That's what they said to him. 604 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:31,866 Donald Trump has no experience in politics, 605 00:23:31,866 --> 00:23:33,100 this is new to him 606 00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:34,366 he says okay, fine. - He believes it, 607 00:23:34,366 --> 00:23:35,300 He's like, great. - He believes it. 608 00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:36,566 And then August rolls around, 609 00:23:36,566 --> 00:23:38,066 he's got nothing, okay, and he says, 610 00:23:38,066 --> 00:23:41,600 I trusted you, I gave you, I said I would sign anything 611 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,966 you pass, and you haven't passed it. 612 00:23:43,966 --> 00:23:46,133 So now, here's what's going to happen. 613 00:23:46,133 --> 00:23:48,300 I'm going to start dealing with the other side. 614 00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:52,833 He has the ability to reach to Chuck Schumer in particular 615 00:23:52,833 --> 00:23:56,333 and say, I will give you this in exchange for this. 616 00:23:56,333 --> 00:23:58,700 I know there will be enough feckless Republicans 617 00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:01,166 who just come along with me because I am their party, 618 00:24:01,166 --> 00:24:04,133 and they still have this illusion that I'm the leader of it. 619 00:24:04,133 --> 00:24:05,300 (laughter) 620 00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:06,766 To go along with it. 621 00:24:06,766 --> 00:24:09,733 Here's the very interesting thing that he could do. 622 00:24:09,733 --> 00:24:10,966 I wrote a piece back in May 623 00:24:10,966 --> 00:24:11,933 saying that Trump needed to pivot 624 00:24:11,933 --> 00:24:13,733 to working with the Democrats 625 00:24:13,733 --> 00:24:17,900 in order to forestall an impeachment election, effectively. 626 00:24:18,933 --> 00:24:19,766 Here's the type- 627 00:24:19,766 --> 00:24:21,300 - Let me stop you. 628 00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:22,766 Impeachment election in the sense that if you don't work 629 00:24:22,766 --> 00:24:23,933 with Democrats, you're going to get nothing done. 630 00:24:23,933 --> 00:24:24,866 - Yes. 631 00:24:24,866 --> 00:24:25,800 - 2018's going to come around, 632 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:26,966 Democrats take back the House, 633 00:24:26,966 --> 00:24:28,666 and the pre-condition to impeachment 634 00:24:28,666 --> 00:24:30,200 is the Democrats taking back the House. 635 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,000 So you hold off the possibility by virtue of accomplishments 636 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,233 that the Democrats take it back. 637 00:24:34,233 --> 00:24:37,533 - Imagine that tomorrow Donald Trump proposes 638 00:24:37,533 --> 00:24:40,466 to the folks on Capitol Hill, 639 00:24:40,466 --> 00:24:44,466 I will pass, I will sign a minimum wage increase 640 00:24:46,466 --> 00:24:50,766 in exchange for work requirements for every welfare policy. 641 00:24:50,766 --> 00:24:53,700 How do Republicans vote against that? 642 00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:55,533 - [Together] How do Democrats vote against that? 643 00:24:55,533 --> 00:24:56,933 - I'm thinking how do Democrats vote against that. 644 00:24:56,933 --> 00:24:58,666 - That's the thing, what you end up with is, 645 00:24:58,666 --> 00:25:01,566 Donald Trump, he's basically with Democrats 646 00:25:01,566 --> 00:25:02,500 on the minimum wage. 647 00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:03,966 He said all sorts of things 648 00:25:03,966 --> 00:25:05,500 about raising the minimum wage over his career. 649 00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:07,066 He is the only Republican you could effectively have 650 00:25:07,066 --> 00:25:09,900 in that job that would say, sure, 15 bucks. 651 00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:11,766 - This gets back, we're just about out of time, 652 00:25:11,766 --> 00:25:14,000 this gets back to this idea that he's somehow figured out 653 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,100 that the Buchanan/Santorum/Huckabee version 654 00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:18,433 of economic nationalism was the right course to pursue. 655 00:25:18,433 --> 00:25:20,366 This gives Trump a ton of credit. 656 00:25:20,366 --> 00:25:23,666 If Trump is smart enough to figure this out, 657 00:25:23,666 --> 00:25:25,133 then maybe he's smart enough to get re-elected 658 00:25:25,133 --> 00:25:27,600 or hold off being removed. 659 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,066 - He uses the country's tribalism to his benefit 660 00:25:31,066 --> 00:25:33,100 over and over and over again. 661 00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:34,333 - It's amazing. 662 00:25:34,333 --> 00:25:36,200 - Because he has the capability to sort of 663 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,500 look at these things and not behave 664 00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:40,066 like the polite politician, 665 00:25:40,066 --> 00:25:42,600 instead to just wrap his arms around these things. 666 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,133 - Well, we're done. 667 00:25:44,133 --> 00:25:46,133 We're going to wrap our arms around the end of our show. 668 00:25:46,133 --> 00:25:47,766 Ben Domenech, so much fun to talk to you 669 00:25:47,766 --> 00:25:49,400 and learn so much, thank you very much. 670 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,333 - Great to be here. 671 00:25:50,333 --> 00:25:51,066 - Ben Domenech, thank you. 672 00:25:51,066 --> 00:25:53,733 (applause) 673 00:25:53,733 --> 00:25:55,800 We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 674 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,166 Visit our website at klru.org/overheard 675 00:26:00,166 --> 00:26:02,233 to find invitations to interviews, 676 00:26:02,233 --> 00:26:04,400 Q and As with our audience and guests, 677 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,366 and an archive of past episodes. 678 00:26:07,366 --> 00:26:09,733 - I will concede that I'm an emphatic supporter 679 00:26:09,733 --> 00:26:12,966 of significant reform to our educational system. 680 00:26:12,966 --> 00:26:14,300 I think it's actually the biggest problem 681 00:26:14,300 --> 00:26:15,733 that we've had in the United States 682 00:26:15,733 --> 00:26:17,433 for the past decade and a half, 683 00:26:17,433 --> 00:26:19,200 and perhaps even beyond that. 684 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,266 We have not devoted the kind, 685 00:26:21,266 --> 00:26:23,500 I actually think that one of the biggest travesties 686 00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:26,833 of the Bush administration was No Child Left Behind. 687 00:26:26,833 --> 00:26:29,700 I think it did not work the way they intended it to work. 688 00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:31,700 - [Narrator] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 689 00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:34,766 is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 690 00:26:34,766 --> 00:26:37,333 a Texas Government Affairs consultancy, 691 00:26:37,333 --> 00:26:39,833 and by Claire and Carl Stuart.