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[FEMALE ANNOUNCER] Funding for 
"Overheard with Evan Smith"

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is provided in part 
by HillCo Partners,

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a Texas government 
affairs consultancy,

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Claire and Carl Stuart,

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and by Laura and John Beckworth, 
Hobby Family Foundation.

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[EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith,

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he's an award winning 
poet whose memoir,

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"How We Fight For Our Lives" 
has just been published.

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He's Saeed Jones, 
this is "Overheard."

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(upbeat music)

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[SMITH] Let's be honest, is 
this about the ability to learn

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or is this about the experience

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of not having been 
taught properly?

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How have you avoided

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what has befallen other 
nations in Africa?

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You could say that 
he made his own bed,

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but you caused him 
to sleep in it.

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You know, you saw a problem 
and over time, took it on.

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Let's start with the sizzle 
before we get to the steak.

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Are you gonna run for president?

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I think I just got an 
F from you, actually.

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(laughing) 
This is "Overheard."

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(audience applauding)

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[SMITH] Saeed Jones, welcome. 
[SAEED JONES] Thank you, hey!

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[SMITH] And congratulations-- 
[JONES] Thank you so much.

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[SMITH] --on this. I think it's 
an enormous accomplishment.

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[JONES] Thank you. 
[SMITH] Of this book.

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As I shared with you 
before we came out,

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I don't like anything. 
(laughing)

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I'm not moved by anything. 
[JONES] OK.

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[SMITH] I'm totally closed off. 
[JONES] Oh you're Elsa.

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[SMITH] Well, sure OK. 
[JONES] Cold.

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[SMITH] The second time I 
read this book, I got teary.

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Because I really think that 
it is as moving a story,

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even though your story 
is not everybody's story,

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everybody's story 
is not your story.

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I'll come back to 
this in a second,

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the universality of it, 
the fact that we all see

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in ourselves, a 
time in our lives

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when we were trying to 
figure out who we were.

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Because really 
that's what this--

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[JONES] Yes, that is 
it, that's the work.

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[SMITH] That's what 
the book is about.

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Why did you decide to write it?

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Basic question.

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[JONES] I think 
like many writers,

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we write to understand.

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We write because we're 
curious and interested

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in something that happened.

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Something that I struggled with 
though, as I was growing up,

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and you see this 
a bit in the book,

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was that I knew I 
wanted to be a writer.

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I knew.

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But as I was struggling to 
come into an understanding

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of my identity, my 
race, sexuality, gender,

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and really struggling with 
depression and self-hate,

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to be honest, the 
impulses collided.

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And so often when I was 
younger, I would stay

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in dangerous rooms, 
figurative and literal,

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because I was like "Well, 
I can write about this.

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"And doesn't that mean I'm in 
control of what's going on?"

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And so I struggle with that.

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But that's a problem, 
that's a problem.

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And so I realized I 
wanted to write the book

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when I felt I had a 
different intention.

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[SMITH] So are you 
writing yourself

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out of the room essentially?

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[JONES] Writing myself 
out of the room,

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and explaining why 
for other people.

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[SMITH] So it is 
for other people.

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And again, I think 
there's something

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that all of us can 
take from this book.

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But it sounds to me 
like, what I suspected,

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you also wrote this really for 
you as much as for us, right?

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[JONES] Sure, I think 
certainly a memoir, right,

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you're going into your 
own personal history

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and making sense of it.

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And the challenges 
of writing a memoir,

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it's just instructive.

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Because you have to 
fully flesh yourself out

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and other characters, 
and the landscape.

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I can't just say "Yeah 
I grew up in Lewisville"

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and you've got it, most 
people will never be

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in Lewisville, necessarily.

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I have to bring it to life, 
and that creative act,

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you learn from it.

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And then more memories 
start to come.

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Memory is an 
unreliable narrator.

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I think of it as a kind 
of trickster figure.

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You're grappling 
with your memories.

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We incorrectly remember 
things, intentionally

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and unintentionally, 
all the time.

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And so in the

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five years in earnest that 
I was writing the book,

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from the time I sold it 
and then publishing it,

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I'm glad I'm a slow writer.

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Because it allowed 
memories to come up

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and have time to 
really separate--

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[SMITH] You had to 
work through that.

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[JONES] I did. 
[SMITH] You bring up

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a couple of good points 
about writing memoirs.

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First thing is that 
sometimes your own memory

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is unreliable, you're 
an unreliable narrator.

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[JONES] Yes! 
[SMITH] Of your own story.

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[JONES] We are all the 
unreliable narrators.

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[SMITH] How certain are you, 
since this is presented to us

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as your story, how 
certain are you

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that your memories are, by 
the time we read it, reliable?

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[JONES] I think they're 
reliable in the sense

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that I'm pretty straightforward

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in terms of my own reliability.

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And I say there's 
some really important,

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high intensity moments 
in the book and I go,

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"I don't remember 
what happened next.

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"I don't remember what 
she said, I wish I did."

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[SMITH] But the 
conversations recounted,

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at least reflect what happened.

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[JONES] They reflect what 
happened. [SMITH] There are no

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composite characters, right? 
[JONES] Right.

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[SMITH] It's a true 
story. [JONES] Yeah, 
and you know, sure.

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And that's why I 
try to be candid

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about what I don't remember,

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because I'm already asking 
a lot of you as a reader

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in that I'm using 
fictive techniques.

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I'm creating dialogue, right?

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And so I'm trying to do my best.

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But you try to rein it in.

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That's why I try to 
be very intentional

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and sparing with 
dialogue because listen,

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most of us, we're lucky if 
we can remember a few words

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from a specific conversation-- 
[SMITH] That happened today!

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[JONES] Today, this morning. 
[SMITH] Today, right.

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As opposed to going 
back many years.

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[JONES] Years later, totally. 
[SMITH] The other part

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about writing a memoir, that,

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I've not written a 
memoir, and would imagine

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it would be difficult 
for a lot of reasons.

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But at least because you're 
forced to access things

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that you'd just as soon 
not remember, or access.

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So how much 
self-editing did you do

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of the difficult 
parts of your story?

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Having read this book 
a couple of times,

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it doesn't seem like 
you left very much out.

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(laughing)

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Or anything that was difficult, 
let me say it this way,

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that you didn't shy away 
from recounting things

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that were difficult, in fact,

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that almost seems to 
have been the point.

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[JONES] It was the point. 
[SMITH] Right.

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[JONES] The idea of 
difficult subject matter,

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I understand it 
as a reader, I do.

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And I recorded the audiobook 
earlier this summer.

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And I've gotta tell you, 
reading the audiobook

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was a totally 
different experience.

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[SMITH] Harder or easier? 
[JONES] Harder.

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Reading the audiobook was the 
first time I got choked up.

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[SMITH] Saying the 
words out loud. [JONES] 
Mm hmm, oh my gosh,

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saying what that pastor says. 
[SMITH] Yeah.

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[JONES] Saying things 
my grandmother and I,

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we said to each other. 
That was difficult.

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And the last chapter, 
that was the only time.

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But as a writer, I 
don't feel that way.

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What was difficult was 
writing about my mother,

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she's not alive anymore. 
[SMITH] Right.

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[JONES] So I felt, 
you know, I love her.

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And I want to honor that 
love, and being respectful.

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[SMITH] She passed a while ago.

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[JONES] She passed away in 2011.

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[SMITH] Right, so she's of 
course, not seen the book.

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[JONES] Yeah, yeah, so I 
feel respectful to her.

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[SMITH] What would she 
say about this book?

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How would she feel about it?

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[JONES] Hmm! Interesting.

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[SMITH] Before we came 
out today, we talked about

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the fact that your grandmother

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who's a significant 
character in this book,

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your uncle who is a less 
significant character,

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but is important. 
[JONES] He's there.

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[SMITH] They're 
both still with us.

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[JONES] They're still with 
us. They read the book.

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[SMITH] They've read the book.

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Your mother never got the 
opportunity to read it.

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What would she say about it?

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[JONES] Well she knew that I was

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going to write a book one day.

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When I was in graduate 
school, she called me,

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and she said "I told Grandma 
you're writing a memoir one day

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"and I explained what it was."

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And I was like, "Uh," 
and I froze in my tracks

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on college campus, where 
I was in graduate school

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at Rutgers, and I said 
"What did she say?"

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And she said "Uh oh!" (laughing)

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[SMITH] She said "Uh oh." 
(laughing)

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[JONES] That's what Mildred 
said! Uh oh, that was it.

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So I think my mom was 
aware of my intentions,

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that it was a goal 
down the line.

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You know, it's hard.

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I hope I made her proud.

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One of my goals was to 
make it clear to the reader

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that my mother, my grandmother,

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they are not literary 
devices, they are people.

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[SMITH] Right. 
[JONES] They are women.

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Black women in America 
fighting for their own lives.

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And I wanted to tell the story,

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and of course, they're 
a part of what goes on.

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But I wanted the 
reader to understand

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that they have 
their own stories.

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And if my mom was 
alive, maybe she'd go

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"Oh maybe I'll write 
my own book now."

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[SMITH] Maybe she'll 
tell her own story.

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[JONES] Yeah. 
[SMITH] Well, I think

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you're unsparing 
in your portrayal

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of your mother and grandmother,

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just to stay on this 
point for a second.

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And I don't mean that 
in a negative sense.

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I think that you're 
honest about it.

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You're not cruel to them.

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You're not presenting 
them in a negative light.

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[JONES] Thank you. 
[SMITH] You're presenting them

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as who they are. 
We're all flawed.

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We all have challenges, 
we all deal with them

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the best we can. 
[JONES] Yeah. (laughing)

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[SMITH] Your mother's 
life was extraordinary

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'cause for one 
thing, it gave you,

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as you very clearly 
say in the book,

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you are who you are 
because of who she was.

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[JONES] Yes.

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[SMITH] Late in the book there's 
a line that says something

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to the effect of "Our 
mothers are who we all are."

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Right?

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[JONES] Our mothers 
are why we are here.

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[SMITH] Oh why we're here. 
[JONES] Yeah, yeah.

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[SMITH] We're all 
products of that.

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We're all somebody's kid. 
[JONES] Yeah.

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[SMITH] And I think 
that in that respect,

236
00:07:58,266 --> 00:08:00,366
there's a lot of admiration 
for how she raised you

237
00:08:00,366 --> 00:08:02,933
and who she allowed 
you to become,

238
00:08:02,933 --> 00:08:04,833
and how you became who 
you were because of her.

239
00:08:04,833 --> 00:08:06,733
But at the same time, 
it's an honest portrayal

240
00:08:06,733 --> 00:08:08,800
of the struggles 
that your mother had

241
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,633
and the differences that you 
have with your grandmother

242
00:08:10,633 --> 00:08:12,933
which are material in 
this book, as well.

243
00:08:12,933 --> 00:08:15,633
I think you gotta respect it. 
[JONES] Yeah.

244
00:08:15,633 --> 00:08:17,233
[SMITH] They may be made 
a little uncomfortable

245
00:08:17,233 --> 00:08:19,400
by seeing it on the 
page, but you know.

246
00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:20,933
[JONES] Yeah, I mean, 
it's interesting.

247
00:08:20,933 --> 00:08:24,633
I talked to my grandmother 
a few times about the book

248
00:08:24,633 --> 00:08:26,266
while I was writing it. [SMITH] 
While you were writing it.

249
00:08:26,266 --> 00:08:27,200
[JONES] Mm hmm.

250
00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:28,600
And she's very interesting.

251
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,100
She has never 
attempted to reframe,

252
00:08:32,100 --> 00:08:34,433
make excuses, control the story.

253
00:08:34,433 --> 00:08:35,900
[SMITH] She is who she is. 
[JONES] She's who she is.

254
00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:39,400
And when she read it, the 
first third of the book where,

255
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,033
for my grandmother and I in 
particular, it's really fraught.

256
00:08:42,033 --> 00:08:45,333
I never told my mom about 
what happened that summer

257
00:08:45,333 --> 00:08:47,400
with my grandmother and 
I, and it's intense.

258
00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,833
[SMITH] Say in short, 
for the benefit of people

259
00:08:49,833 --> 00:08:51,033
who have not yet read the book,

260
00:08:51,033 --> 00:08:51,833
explain what we're 
talking about.

261
00:08:51,833 --> 00:08:53,300
[JONES] Sure, sure.

262
00:08:53,300 --> 00:08:54,966
So my mom practiced 
Nichiren Buddhism,

263
00:08:54,966 --> 00:08:56,900
she chanted (speaking 
foreign language)

264
00:08:56,900 --> 00:08:59,533
Tina Turner, you 
might know that,

265
00:08:59,533 --> 00:09:02,133
if you know about 
Tina Turner's life.

266
00:09:02,133 --> 00:09:05,400
And the rest of our 
family super do not

267
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,933
practice Nichiren Buddhism. 
[SMITH] Right.

268
00:09:07,933 --> 00:09:09,800
About the opposite 
end of the spectrum.

269
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,033
[JONES] Yeah, about as far away,

270
00:09:11,033 --> 00:09:15,000
devoutly Christian in 
different denominations.

271
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,133
Some of my earliest memories 
are of my family arguing.

272
00:09:19,133 --> 00:09:21,033
Like me being short enough 
to sit under the table

273
00:09:21,033 --> 00:09:22,500
and I just remember 
seeing everyone

274
00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:25,600
yelling and shouting 
about God and hell.

275
00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,766
And by the time I'm a 
teenager in the book,

276
00:09:28,766 --> 00:09:32,533
you see me go to 
Memphis for the summer,

277
00:09:32,533 --> 00:09:34,533
as my mom, as single 
parent often sent me home.

278
00:09:34,533 --> 00:09:35,900
[SMITH] Where your 
grandmother lives.

279
00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:37,233
[JONES] Where my grandmother 
lived, in Memphis.

280
00:09:37,233 --> 00:09:39,733
We were used to going 
to church every Sunday

281
00:09:39,733 --> 00:09:40,933
and I didn't mind it.

282
00:09:40,933 --> 00:09:43,466
But that summer she 
started going to

283
00:09:43,466 --> 00:09:45,466
an Evangelical 
Pentecostal church

284
00:09:45,466 --> 00:09:48,200
as opposed to the Black 
Baptist church I was used to.

285
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:49,666
That was a change.

286
00:09:49,666 --> 00:09:51,600
And I'm a teenager there.

287
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:56,066
Listen, any caregiver, any 
teacher, mentor, listen,

288
00:09:56,066 --> 00:09:59,033
it is scary, (laughing) 
realizing your kid

289
00:09:59,033 --> 00:10:01,366
is now becoming 
this other entity.

290
00:10:01,366 --> 00:10:03,200
They're getting bold, 
they're talking back,

291
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,366
they're making choices.

292
00:10:04,366 --> 00:10:06,066
It's a lot, in 
America it's a lot.

293
00:10:06,066 --> 00:10:07,733
So I understand her anxiety.

294
00:10:07,733 --> 00:10:10,033
And I think she 
responded to it by saying

295
00:10:10,033 --> 00:10:11,833
"We're gonna get you to 
church as much as possible."

296
00:10:11,833 --> 00:10:13,133
[SMITH] More church 
is the answer.

297
00:10:13,133 --> 00:10:14,566
[JONES] More church 
is the answer.

298
00:10:14,566 --> 00:10:16,566
Yeah and so we were 
going to church suddenly,

299
00:10:16,566 --> 00:10:19,900
three or four nights a week 
not including Sunday mornings.

300
00:10:19,900 --> 00:10:22,733
It was just a lot, I felt 
like it was all we did.

301
00:10:22,733 --> 00:10:25,233
[SMITH] And looking back 
now you don't begrudge her.

302
00:10:25,233 --> 00:10:27,500
[JONES] I don't begrudge 
her, it was a mistake.

303
00:10:27,500 --> 00:10:29,533
It culminates in a 
terrible mistake.

304
00:10:29,533 --> 00:10:32,000
Because at the 
end of the summer,

305
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,500
she takes me to the 
front of the church,

306
00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:37,300
takes me up to this man 
that I did not know.

307
00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:41,066
And I remember thinking about 
that, we've never even spoken.

308
00:10:41,066 --> 00:10:43,233
And she says "This is 
my grandson, Saeed.

309
00:10:43,233 --> 00:10:44,866
"His mother is Buddhist."

310
00:10:44,866 --> 00:10:47,533
And he just nodded like 
that was all the things

311
00:10:47,533 --> 00:10:49,566
he would ever need to know 
about me, and my mother,

312
00:10:49,566 --> 00:10:52,333
who he also absolutely 
had not met, right?

313
00:10:52,333 --> 00:10:53,700
And he just started to pray.

314
00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:56,633
And then he said "God, 
this boy's mother

315
00:10:56,633 --> 00:10:58,900
"has gone down the path of Satan

316
00:10:58,900 --> 00:11:00,966
"and decided to 
drag him down too."

317
00:11:00,966 --> 00:11:03,066
[SMITH] Right. [JONES] 
And speaking of dialogue,

318
00:11:03,066 --> 00:11:04,633
I do remember 
everything he said.

319
00:11:04,633 --> 00:11:06,133
[SMITH] That he said.

320
00:11:06,133 --> 00:11:07,366
[JONES] I will remember it 
for the rest of my life.

321
00:11:07,366 --> 00:11:08,900
I'll be dead and I'll 
still remember it, Evan.

322
00:11:08,900 --> 00:11:11,233
He said "Make her suffer." 
[SMITH] Yeah.

323
00:11:11,233 --> 00:11:13,633
[JONES] And he just goes 
on in this elaborate curse

324
00:11:13,633 --> 00:11:15,500
"Rain your plagues, 
make her sick

325
00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:17,266
"so that she will 
suffer and realize

326
00:11:17,266 --> 00:11:19,866
"she's down the wrong path, 
and come back to the church

327
00:11:19,866 --> 00:11:23,266
"and bring her son 
with her, amen, amen."

328
00:11:23,266 --> 00:11:25,900
That was the prayer, 
which was a curse.

329
00:11:25,900 --> 00:11:28,533
And so I draw that distinction 
because, oh my God,

330
00:11:28,533 --> 00:11:29,933
what cruelty. 
[SMITH] Right.

331
00:11:29,933 --> 00:11:31,733
[JONES] And I don't care 
what you believe in,

332
00:11:31,733 --> 00:11:33,833
but if you're trying 
to persuade someone

333
00:11:33,833 --> 00:11:35,766
about your religion 
or life philosophy,

334
00:11:35,766 --> 00:11:37,233
that's not the way to do it.

335
00:11:37,233 --> 00:11:38,733
[SMITH] My point 
was simply to say

336
00:11:38,733 --> 00:11:39,833
that your grandmother didn't 
wish this on you, herself.

337
00:11:39,833 --> 00:11:41,066
[JONES] She didn't.

338
00:11:41,066 --> 00:11:44,866
I think, and I talk 
about this in the book.

339
00:11:44,866 --> 00:11:48,000
If you had asked her put your 
hand on the bible and testify,

340
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,966
why did you just do that?

341
00:11:49,966 --> 00:11:52,566
I think she would've said 
because I love my grandson.

342
00:11:52,566 --> 00:11:54,366
Because I'm trying 
to save his soul.

343
00:11:54,366 --> 00:11:56,600
That's why that 
part of the book,

344
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,233
there are harrowing, 
terrifying (laughing)

345
00:11:59,233 --> 00:12:00,766
sections in the 
book, but for me,

346
00:12:00,766 --> 00:12:02,566
that's the section 
that is most painful.

347
00:12:02,566 --> 00:12:05,400
Because it's an act of love.

348
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,266
And I think often, and we 
need to talk about this more,

349
00:12:08,266 --> 00:12:11,133
often we hurt, scare,

350
00:12:11,133 --> 00:12:14,033
or harm one another out of love!

351
00:12:14,033 --> 00:12:17,033
[SMITH] In the name of love, 
right. [JONES] Out of concern.

352
00:12:17,033 --> 00:12:18,966
America is scary.

353
00:12:18,966 --> 00:12:22,433
Certainly if you are 
raising a Black kid.

354
00:12:22,433 --> 00:12:23,900
Certainly if you're 
raising a gay kid.

355
00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:28,333
Since I've been doing this book 
tour for the last few weeks,

356
00:12:28,333 --> 00:12:31,366
moms have come up to me and 
they talk about Matthew Shepard

357
00:12:31,366 --> 00:12:34,500
or they talk about Atatiana 
Jefferson, young 28 woman--

358
00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:35,733
[SMITH] In Forth Worth. 
[JONES] In Fort Worth

359
00:12:35,733 --> 00:12:36,666
who was just shot and killed,

360
00:12:36,666 --> 00:12:38,600
and they're like "I am scared."

361
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,700
And sometimes when we're 
scared, like my mother,

362
00:12:41,700 --> 00:12:42,966
we get silent.

363
00:12:42,966 --> 00:12:44,433
My mother and I had a 
vibrant relationship.

364
00:12:44,433 --> 00:12:45,800
But her response, 
I think to fear

365
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:47,400
about having a gay Black son

366
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,666
was that she just couldn't 
talk about sexuality.

367
00:12:49,666 --> 00:12:50,966
That was the one silence.

368
00:12:50,966 --> 00:12:54,366
For my grandmother, her 
response was proactive.

369
00:12:54,366 --> 00:12:56,866
She was like "Oh, OK, 
I will save his soul."

370
00:12:56,866 --> 00:12:58,333
[SMITH] Let's just 
take him to church.

371
00:12:58,333 --> 00:12:59,866
More church is the answer. 
[JONES] More church.

372
00:12:59,866 --> 00:13:03,600
[SMITH] So this book is, in 
essence, a book about you

373
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,600
coming to terms with and better 
understanding who you are.

374
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:07,533
[JONES] Yes. 
[SMITH] Right.

375
00:13:07,533 --> 00:13:08,733
[JONES] When I said earlier

376
00:13:08,733 --> 00:13:10,266
that there was something 
universal about it,

377
00:13:10,266 --> 00:13:11,666
I sit here as a 
straight white man

378
00:13:11,666 --> 00:13:12,933
who grew up in the Northeast.

379
00:13:12,933 --> 00:13:15,033
You're a gay Black man 
who grew up in Texas.

380
00:13:15,033 --> 00:13:17,200
But there is a 
connection between us.

381
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,066
And I connected with 
this book in part

382
00:13:19,066 --> 00:13:22,133
because we've all been 
through the process

383
00:13:22,133 --> 00:13:23,933
of discovering who we are.

384
00:13:23,933 --> 00:13:26,500
And so whether the narrative 
through line in your story

385
00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:28,733
is about sexual orientation, 
or it's about race,

386
00:13:28,733 --> 00:13:30,333
or it's about geography.

387
00:13:30,333 --> 00:13:31,500
[SMITH] Because I think 
geography-- [JONES] 
Place is important.

388
00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:33,466
is really important 
in this book.

389
00:13:33,466 --> 00:13:35,466
Nonetheless, what it's 
fundamentally about

390
00:13:35,466 --> 00:13:37,900
is understanding 
better who you are,

391
00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:39,666
discovering who you are. 
[JONES] True, yeah.

392
00:13:39,666 --> 00:13:41,700
[SMITH] And that really 
is the point of this book.

393
00:13:41,700 --> 00:13:43,566
[JONES] That's why it's 
"How We Fight For Our Lives"

394
00:13:43,566 --> 00:13:44,900
not how I fought for my life. 
[SMITH] How you fought

395
00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:46,600
for your life, right. 
[JONES] Because,

396
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,733
and I'm so glad you 
draw attention to the,

397
00:13:48,733 --> 00:13:50,133
also you're the first 
straight white man

398
00:13:50,133 --> 00:13:51,666
who's gotten to interview 
me for the book.

399
00:13:51,666 --> 00:13:53,000
[SMITH] Is that right? 
[JONES] How's it feel?

400
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,766
Is it good for you? 
(laughing)

401
00:13:56,766 --> 00:14:00,000
Good for you! (laughing)

402
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,500
[SMITH] I'm happy to 
have that superlative.

403
00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:02,766
[JONES] You're welcome, 
you're welcome!

404
00:14:02,766 --> 00:14:03,700
[SMITH] Thank you very 
much, great, yeah.

405
00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:05,000
[JONES] Wear it well!

406
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,733
But that's the 
thing because we all

407
00:14:07,733 --> 00:14:09,166
have gone through this process,

408
00:14:09,166 --> 00:14:11,333
and are still going 
through it, it never ends,

409
00:14:11,333 --> 00:14:13,733
this work of 
understanding who we are

410
00:14:13,733 --> 00:14:14,966
and what we care about.

411
00:14:14,966 --> 00:14:17,266
And so whether you 
know it or not,

412
00:14:17,266 --> 00:14:19,133
you are fighting for your life.

413
00:14:19,133 --> 00:14:21,733
And I would argue that 
if you think you aren't,

414
00:14:21,733 --> 00:14:23,766
you've got a hell of 
a fight yet to come.

415
00:14:23,766 --> 00:14:26,166
[SMITH] And also if you 
think you're ever done--

416
00:14:26,166 --> 00:14:27,533
[JONES] Yeah! 
[SMITH] --with that process

417
00:14:27,533 --> 00:14:29,466
of understanding who 
you are, you're wrong.

418
00:14:29,466 --> 00:14:31,733
Because the fact is, 
the end of this book,

419
00:14:31,733 --> 00:14:34,666
it's not like OK, I'm done. 
[JONES] Work's in progress.

420
00:14:34,666 --> 00:14:36,600
[SMITH] Figured it out, 
it's a work in progress.

421
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,866
So you mentioned 
Matthew Shepard.

422
00:14:38,866 --> 00:14:41,333
You called out Atatiana 
Jefferson, but in the book

423
00:14:41,333 --> 00:14:43,533
you actually talk 
about also James Byrd.

424
00:14:43,533 --> 00:14:45,200
[JONES] Yes.

425
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,300
[SMITH] Two things that 
were, I think, significant,

426
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:49,733
they're mentioned 
in passing, -ish,

427
00:14:49,733 --> 00:14:51,500
but they seem significant 
to me at least

428
00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:53,900
in terms of understanding 
how you are understanding

429
00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:55,300
your environment-- 
[JONES] Absolutely.

430
00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:57,233
[SMITH] --were the dragging 
death of James Byrd

431
00:14:57,233 --> 00:14:59,700
and the murder of 
Matthew Shepard.

432
00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:01,966
[JONES] Yes. 
[SMITH] And understanding how

433
00:15:01,966 --> 00:15:03,933
because you're gay 
you can be killed.

434
00:15:03,933 --> 00:15:06,166
Because you're Black 
you can be killed.

435
00:15:06,166 --> 00:15:08,433
That's just enough. 
[JONES] Uh huh, that's enough.

436
00:15:08,433 --> 00:15:11,433
[SMITH] Talk a little bit 
about those two as backdrops.

437
00:15:11,433 --> 00:15:14,333
[JONES] It's interesting 
because I knew the climax

438
00:15:14,333 --> 00:15:15,933
in Phoenix, Arizona 
which we can talk about,

439
00:15:15,933 --> 00:15:17,900
I knew that's where 
we were going to go

440
00:15:17,900 --> 00:15:19,666
as a writer and reader together.

441
00:15:19,666 --> 00:15:23,333
And just organically, 
truly, I was like okay,

442
00:15:23,333 --> 00:15:25,833
so what are the 
earliest iteration of 
some of these themes

443
00:15:25,833 --> 00:15:27,500
when I started being aware?

444
00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:29,966
And I just started 
writing about the summer.

445
00:15:29,966 --> 00:15:32,133
These specific memories, 
and I looked it up.

446
00:15:32,133 --> 00:15:34,466
And I was like 
"Oh, OK, May 1998.

447
00:15:34,466 --> 00:15:36,833
"OK, huh, what was, oh my gosh!"

448
00:15:36,833 --> 00:15:39,700
James Byrd, Jr., 
that is June of 1998,

449
00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:42,666
that's Jasper, Texas, that is 
four hours from Lewisville--

450
00:15:42,666 --> 00:15:43,866
[SMITH] Lewisville which--

451
00:15:43,866 --> 00:15:45,333
[JONES] --Texas, 
is where I grew up.

452
00:15:45,333 --> 00:15:46,266
[SMITH] Where you grew up, 
which is just north of Dallas.

453
00:15:46,266 --> 00:15:47,333
[JONES] Yep, yep, just up I-35,

454
00:15:47,333 --> 00:15:49,000
right between Denton and Dallas.

455
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,666
So that's where 
we're living when,

456
00:15:51,666 --> 00:15:53,633
I write about us watching 
it on the evening news,

457
00:15:53,633 --> 00:15:54,933
hearing that he was beaten up

458
00:15:54,933 --> 00:15:56,500
and chained to the 
back of a truck

459
00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:59,633
by three white men who offered 
him a ride home from work.

460
00:15:59,633 --> 00:16:01,233
They turned out to be 
white supremacists.

461
00:16:01,233 --> 00:16:03,533
And they dragged him until 
his body was dismembered.

462
00:16:03,533 --> 00:16:05,066
[SMITH] For the 
sin of being Black.

463
00:16:05,066 --> 00:16:06,766
[JONES] For the sin of being 
Black, as they perceived it.

464
00:16:06,766 --> 00:16:10,533
His body actually desegregated 
that cemetery in Jasper.

465
00:16:10,533 --> 00:16:12,633
And much like Emmett 
Till's Memorial,

466
00:16:12,633 --> 00:16:15,533
which was just recently 
replaced, it's been graffitied

467
00:16:15,533 --> 00:16:18,233
and covered in racial 
slurs over and over again.

468
00:16:18,233 --> 00:16:20,333
So that's June, and 
I'm watching that.

469
00:16:20,333 --> 00:16:22,933
I'm like "OK, well that's 
one bit of information."

470
00:16:22,933 --> 00:16:26,733
That October is when Matthew 
Shepard, 21 years ago

471
00:16:26,733 --> 00:16:30,700
in Laramie, Wyoming meets 
two young men at a bar

472
00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:32,533
and they're like "Hey, 
you want to go drinking

473
00:16:32,533 --> 00:16:34,000
"and go hang out?"

474
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,066
And they beat him and leave 
him for dead in a field.

475
00:16:36,066 --> 00:16:38,100
And of course, that 
became a national story.

476
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,400
So it was like,

477
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,433
I'm 12 years old, 
James Byrd, Jr.

478
00:16:43,433 --> 00:16:44,933
I'm 12 years old--

479
00:16:44,933 --> 00:16:46,466
[JONES] Matthew Shepard-- 
[SMITH] Matthew Shepard.

480
00:16:46,466 --> 00:16:47,666
[JONES] I'm 12 years old, 
all of that is happening.

481
00:16:47,666 --> 00:16:48,800
[SMITH] It can't 
help but be context.

482
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,300
[JONES] Yeah!

483
00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,100
And we have to understand 
this about young people.

484
00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:55,266
Well before the age 
of 12, by the way,

485
00:16:55,266 --> 00:16:58,233
young people are always 
reading the American room.

486
00:16:58,233 --> 00:17:00,233
They are always watching us.

487
00:17:00,233 --> 00:17:02,333
And certainly they 
have more media now

488
00:17:02,333 --> 00:17:04,033
than I did as a kid.

489
00:17:04,033 --> 00:17:07,133
So there's a whole 'nother 
level of social media.

490
00:17:07,133 --> 00:17:08,600
But they see what's the news.

491
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,833
They hear what's 
coming on the radio.

492
00:17:10,833 --> 00:17:13,366
And I remember being in the car

493
00:17:13,366 --> 00:17:17,866
and hearing shock jocks say 
homophobic or racist things

494
00:17:17,866 --> 00:17:19,333
and people are laughing.

495
00:17:19,333 --> 00:17:22,000
And you turn around and you 
look, are other people laughing?

496
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,233
Is my mom laughing?

497
00:17:23,233 --> 00:17:24,900
No, OK, thank goodness. 
[SMITH] But remember--

498
00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:26,133
[JONES] You're paying 
attention to that.

499
00:17:26,133 --> 00:17:27,600
[SMITH] You're talking 
about 21 years ago.

500
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:28,866
[JONES] Yeah. 
[SMITH] When Byrd and Shepard

501
00:17:28,866 --> 00:17:31,933
were both killed, 
so 21 years later,

502
00:17:31,933 --> 00:17:35,633
the next generation of 
kids is even more aware.

503
00:17:35,633 --> 00:17:37,166
[JONES] Yes. 
[SMITH] Is even more plugged in,

504
00:17:37,166 --> 00:17:38,366
[JONES] I think so. 
[SMITH] Connected.

505
00:17:38,366 --> 00:17:40,666
[JONES] I think so, some 
things have changed.

506
00:17:40,666 --> 00:17:44,333
When I was 12, the idea 
of getting married one day

507
00:17:44,333 --> 00:17:47,033
to a man that I 
love was a fantasy.

508
00:17:47,033 --> 00:17:48,633
[SMITH] How 'bout a gay 
presidential candidate

509
00:17:48,633 --> 00:17:50,033
campaigning with his husband? 
[JONES] Who knew?

510
00:17:50,033 --> 00:17:52,066
Who I might not even like!

511
00:17:52,066 --> 00:17:53,966
Isn't that great? 
(laughing)

512
00:17:53,966 --> 00:17:56,700
I'm not required 
to agree with him

513
00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:59,433
because of our sexual 
identity, or to agree

514
00:17:59,433 --> 00:18:00,666
with some of the 
other candidates

515
00:18:00,666 --> 00:18:03,400
because of our racial, 
we have options!

516
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,033
So things have 
changed, you know.

517
00:18:05,033 --> 00:18:06,766
Marriage equality is 
a part of our life.

518
00:18:06,766 --> 00:18:08,366
There is more representation. 
[SMITH] In fact,

519
00:18:08,366 --> 00:18:11,033
you talk in the book 
about Obama being elected.

520
00:18:11,033 --> 00:18:13,166
It's not a political 
book as far as it goes,

521
00:18:13,166 --> 00:18:15,166
although it's obviously 
a political book.

522
00:18:15,166 --> 00:18:18,500
One of the moments that is 
more conventionally political

523
00:18:18,500 --> 00:18:20,266
is oh, African 
American president.

524
00:18:20,266 --> 00:18:21,833
[JONES] Right, yeah. 
[SMITH] But again--

525
00:18:21,833 --> 00:18:23,600
[JONES] Deep anxiety. 
[SMITH] Vastly different.

526
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,333
And yet also-- 
[JONES] Yeah, yeah.

527
00:18:25,333 --> 00:18:28,700
Because, by the time I'm a 
senior in college in Kentucky,

528
00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:31,466
I went to Western 
Kentucky University,

529
00:18:31,466 --> 00:18:32,966
in a seminal moment in the book

530
00:18:32,966 --> 00:18:34,233
that collides with his history,

531
00:18:34,233 --> 00:18:36,900
it's right before he 
gets the nomination,

532
00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:38,233
right before Iowa, actually. 
[SMITH] Iowa, yeah.

533
00:18:38,233 --> 00:18:39,500
[JONES] Iowa Caucus.

534
00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:43,733
And every morning I 
woke up terrified--

535
00:18:43,733 --> 00:18:44,666
[SMITH] He would 
be assassinated.

536
00:18:44,666 --> 00:18:46,133
[JONES] That he was gonna be

537
00:18:46,133 --> 00:18:47,500
assassinated, and in fact 
honestly, when he won,

538
00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:49,533
I remember the inauguration 
and they announced

539
00:18:49,533 --> 00:18:51,666
that Michelle Obama 
and Barack Obama

540
00:18:51,666 --> 00:18:53,333
were going to walk 
through the parade.

541
00:18:53,333 --> 00:18:54,900
And I remember thinking, 
please don't do that.

542
00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:56,000
[SMITH] Please don't do it. 
[JONES] Oh my gosh.

543
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,933
Because again, I am a Texas kid.

544
00:18:57,933 --> 00:19:01,033
And every Texas kid has 
been to the Grassy Knoll.

545
00:19:01,033 --> 00:19:02,400
(laughing) We have those 
images, and so I remember.

546
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:03,800
[SMITH] You remember. 
[JONES] Yeah!

547
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,600
So the joy of the 
breakthrough was tempered,

548
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,200
and look at us now!

549
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,866
The years after two terms 
of a Black president.

550
00:19:12,866 --> 00:19:15,766
Look at how America responds 
to these breakthroughs,

551
00:19:15,766 --> 00:19:17,900
it's complicated. 
[SMITH] We seem to be worse

552
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:20,233
than we were before, or 
at least we're saying

553
00:19:20,233 --> 00:19:21,833
the quiet part out loud. 
[JONES] It's almost like

554
00:19:21,833 --> 00:19:23,666
we're being punished 
for the breakthrough.

555
00:19:23,666 --> 00:19:25,800
I think that's how 
some people feel.

556
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,866
[SMITH] Can you talk 
about the South again?

557
00:19:27,866 --> 00:19:30,000
[JONES] Sure! (laughing) [SMITH] 
Sense of place in this book

558
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,733
is so important. If you had 
grown up in Lewisville, Maine,

559
00:19:33,733 --> 00:19:36,633
or Lewisville, Washington State,

560
00:19:36,633 --> 00:19:39,100
would the story be the 
same story, necessarily?

561
00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:41,766
[JONES] No, it 
couldn't, it couldn't.

562
00:19:41,766 --> 00:19:44,466
Something I'm struck by, and 
I was talking with friends

563
00:19:44,466 --> 00:19:48,333
here last night that the 
thing about Texas, of course,

564
00:19:48,333 --> 00:19:50,333
is that it was once a country. 
[SMITH] Right.

565
00:19:50,333 --> 00:19:52,966
[JONES] And so it rightfully

566
00:19:52,966 --> 00:19:54,800
has this outsized 
relationship to history

567
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,200
that most states 
don't have, right?

568
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,566
It has a very different identity

569
00:20:00,566 --> 00:20:04,633
and a sense of 
importance. (laughing)

570
00:20:04,633 --> 00:20:06,033
[SMITH] Importance 
or self-importance?

571
00:20:06,033 --> 00:20:07,433
[JONES] Self-importance, 
and honestly you know

572
00:20:07,433 --> 00:20:08,966
I was reading recently

573
00:20:08,966 --> 00:20:10,533
'cause there are a lot of 
wonderful books right now

574
00:20:10,533 --> 00:20:12,733
about history, and 
the history of Texas.

575
00:20:12,733 --> 00:20:14,466
And I learned recently 
Annette Gordon-Reed,

576
00:20:14,466 --> 00:20:16,033
wonderful historian. 
[SMITH] Yeah, great historian.

577
00:20:16,033 --> 00:20:17,300
[JONES] She wrote 
about this for the

578
00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:18,533
New York Review of Books.

579
00:20:18,533 --> 00:20:20,000
And she noted that an 
outsized proportion

580
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,766
of hugely important Supreme 
Court decisions come from Texas.

581
00:20:23,766 --> 00:20:25,300
[SMITH] Come from Texas. 
[JONES] And she explains that

582
00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:27,566
Lawrence v. Texas 
which I mention at 
some point in the book,

583
00:20:27,566 --> 00:20:30,166
that was the law, my 
junior year of high school,

584
00:20:30,166 --> 00:20:31,666
until my junior 
year of high school

585
00:20:31,666 --> 00:20:34,000
it was still technically 
legal for police officers

586
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,500
to arrest men for having sex 
with men, my junior year!

587
00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:42,200
So I say all of that to say 
I think Texas's identity

588
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,733
in relationship to the rest 
of the country and my desire

589
00:20:46,733 --> 00:20:49,400
to write a book that was 
not just about my story,

590
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,600
but that was very 
self-aware and understanding

591
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,466
that my story is a vital 
element of the American story,

592
00:20:55,466 --> 00:20:58,000
just as Texas is a vital element

593
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,000
of America's identity, right?

594
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,466
And that's complicated.

595
00:21:01,466 --> 00:21:04,933
I think that's where 
I got that from.

596
00:21:04,933 --> 00:21:07,100
When you're growing up in 
Texas, and you're just living,

597
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:10,366
you're always being 
reminded of the identity.

598
00:21:10,366 --> 00:21:13,533
[SMITH] But don't you think 
though, that your story

599
00:21:13,533 --> 00:21:15,766
is part of the American 
story but the reason

600
00:21:15,766 --> 00:21:18,933
that it hasn't been told is 
because people haven't told it.

601
00:21:18,933 --> 00:21:21,300
You've stepped up to tell it.

602
00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:23,066
There are Saeed 
Jonses other places.

603
00:21:23,066 --> 00:21:24,933
[JONES] True. 
[SMITH] Who had similar stories

604
00:21:24,933 --> 00:21:28,100
and who have not had the 
platform or the gumption.

605
00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:29,333
[JONES] Yeah.

606
00:21:29,333 --> 00:21:30,533
And that's an 
important distinction.

607
00:21:30,533 --> 00:21:32,066
People have been 
telling this story.

608
00:21:32,066 --> 00:21:33,933
People are doing 
tremendous work.

609
00:21:33,933 --> 00:21:35,566
I don't believe that 
people are voiceless.

610
00:21:35,566 --> 00:21:38,900
I think people in positions 
of power don't wanna listen.

611
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:40,633
Or they're willfully-- 
[SMITH] It's about platforming.

612
00:21:40,633 --> 00:21:42,166
[JONES] --silencing. 
[SMITH] Of course.

613
00:21:42,166 --> 00:21:45,733
I think I'm very fortunate 
that for a book to resonate

614
00:21:45,733 --> 00:21:47,766
and reach an audience, it's 
not just about the book,

615
00:21:47,766 --> 00:21:49,500
it's about the time, 
it's about the place,

616
00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:50,900
it's about the culture.

617
00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:53,900
And the stars do 
kinda have to align.

618
00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:56,200
But yeah, I think, and I 
mention this at one point

619
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:01,166
in the book, I'm often struck 
by how many Black gay artists

620
00:22:02,033 --> 00:22:03,433
and poets, in particular,

621
00:22:03,433 --> 00:22:06,666
who I think of as 
teachers on the page,

622
00:22:06,666 --> 00:22:09,866
died of HIV, AIDS, or poverty,

623
00:22:09,866 --> 00:22:12,466
or violence in their 20s,

624
00:22:12,466 --> 00:22:14,733
who didn't make it 
to their early 30s.

625
00:22:14,733 --> 00:22:16,933
I'm 33 years old.

626
00:22:16,933 --> 00:22:18,200
They were doing the work.

627
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,233
And I trust that they 
would still be writing

628
00:22:20,233 --> 00:22:23,066
and contributing 
to our culture now.

629
00:22:23,066 --> 00:22:24,766
I want to honor them.

630
00:22:24,766 --> 00:22:27,233
And certainly, I am a gay man.

631
00:22:27,233 --> 00:22:31,866
But I have family members 
that identify as LGBT.

632
00:22:31,866 --> 00:22:34,500
I have a cousin who 
came out as trans.

633
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:37,933
And she has happily and 
fiercely lived her life

634
00:22:37,933 --> 00:22:41,800
in Dallas, Texas in the DFW 
area, as long as I've known her,

635
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,766
since she was babysitting 
me when I was a kid.

636
00:22:43,766 --> 00:22:48,033
And so I think it is 
important for me, and readers

637
00:22:48,033 --> 00:22:50,366
to understand my story 
and appreciate it.

638
00:22:50,366 --> 00:22:52,233
But understand it's just 
a part of a bigger story.

639
00:22:52,233 --> 00:22:54,233
[SMITH] And the fact is, 
because you told your story

640
00:22:54,233 --> 00:22:57,366
and have told it in a way 
that has been so celebrated

641
00:22:57,366 --> 00:22:59,100
and so visible, there 
are probably people

642
00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:02,366
in the generation behind you 
who are gonna feel empowered--

643
00:23:02,366 --> 00:23:03,933
[JONES] Yeah, I hope so. [SMITH] 
--now to tell their story.

644
00:23:03,933 --> 00:23:05,466
In that way, you're 
paying it forward.

645
00:23:05,466 --> 00:23:08,200
[JONES] Absolutely, absolutely. 
[SMITH] Aren't you?

646
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:09,133
We have just a 
couple minutes left.

647
00:23:09,133 --> 00:23:10,733
So you self-identify as a poet.

648
00:23:10,733 --> 00:23:12,200
[JONES] Yeah! 
[SMITH] Right.

649
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,466
[JONES] It's a worldview. 
[SMITH] Are you still a poet?

650
00:23:14,466 --> 00:23:16,566
[JONES] Yeah, I have to admit--

651
00:23:16,566 --> 00:23:18,066
[SMITH] Because this 
is long form writing.

652
00:23:18,066 --> 00:23:19,666
[JONES] It sure is, for me. 
[SMITH] It is very different.

653
00:23:19,666 --> 00:23:22,266
As successful as 
you were before,

654
00:23:22,266 --> 00:23:27,266
two previously published books 
of poetry, award-winning.

655
00:23:27,266 --> 00:23:31,200
You do this, sort of a little 
bit of a dog leg, right?

656
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,033
Do you simply go back to that?

657
00:23:33,033 --> 00:23:35,266
How do you view 
your writing life

658
00:23:35,266 --> 00:23:37,333
and your creative 
output now, after this?

659
00:23:37,333 --> 00:23:41,866
[JONES] I think of 
poet as a worldview.

660
00:23:41,866 --> 00:23:43,800
Image, and language

661
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,100
are my two main 
lenses to the world.

662
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:48,800
Everything else 
goes through that.

663
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,200
And that comes from poetry.

664
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,433
I will take poetry 
to whatever I do.

665
00:23:53,433 --> 00:23:56,333
I think it informs 
the way I play

666
00:23:56,333 --> 00:23:58,633
and think on Twitter, 
in my essays.

667
00:23:58,633 --> 00:23:59,966
In the book there is lyricism.

668
00:23:59,966 --> 00:24:01,600
There is a poem 
that opens the book.

669
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,333
And I wanted to use what 
I learned from poetry

670
00:24:04,333 --> 00:24:07,566
to color the emotional 
nuances of what's going on.

671
00:24:07,566 --> 00:24:10,433
Because my prose is actually 
pretty matter-of-fact, right?

672
00:24:10,433 --> 00:24:12,366
The lyricism allows 
me to, I think,

673
00:24:12,366 --> 00:24:16,100
give you some 
emotional information.

674
00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:18,100
And then beyond that, I think--

675
00:24:18,100 --> 00:24:20,033
[SMITH] You didn't write 
your memoir as a long poem.

676
00:24:20,033 --> 00:24:21,300
There's a reason-- [JONES] 
I sure didn't, my goodness.

677
00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:23,666
[SMITH] Well, the point 
I make is that sometimes

678
00:24:23,666 --> 00:24:26,166
form follows function. 
[JONES] Form follows function.

679
00:24:26,166 --> 00:24:27,400
I mean that's it. 
[JONES] Yes, yes.

680
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,166
[SMITH] In this case, 
the long form Saeed

681
00:24:30,166 --> 00:24:32,666
has a bigger impact, right--

682
00:24:32,666 --> 00:24:34,166
[JONES] Thank you. 
[SMITH] --than short form Saeed.

683
00:24:34,166 --> 00:24:35,766
[JONES] Yeah, and I think,

684
00:24:35,766 --> 00:24:38,733
the weird thing about 
universality is that I think

685
00:24:38,733 --> 00:24:41,966
it's directly connected 
to specificity.

686
00:24:41,966 --> 00:24:45,133
And I think with poetry because 
you're emphasizing sound

687
00:24:45,133 --> 00:24:47,466
and image, you 
can't just be like,

688
00:24:47,466 --> 00:24:49,833
oh, and let me explain the 
pragmatic, the details.

689
00:24:49,833 --> 00:24:52,500
You begin to have to 
kind of tighten the lens.

690
00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:53,966
And so I wanted to open up.

691
00:24:53,966 --> 00:24:55,800
I wanted to be able to 
kinda flesh out this world

692
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,100
in a way that prose allows me.

693
00:24:58,100 --> 00:24:59,300
[SMITH] So what do you do next?

694
00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:01,066
[JONES] I don't know!

695
00:25:01,066 --> 00:25:05,166
One, I think attention 
is wonderful.

696
00:25:05,166 --> 00:25:07,633
And it's bright, 
and I'm so honored.

697
00:25:07,633 --> 00:25:09,133
[SMITH] Also, as you 
know, it's fleeting.

698
00:25:09,133 --> 00:25:12,466
[JONES] It's fleeting, and 
it's loud! It's distracting!

699
00:25:12,466 --> 00:25:13,400
[SMITH] Yeah.

700
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,533
[JONES] You do your best work

701
00:25:15,533 --> 00:25:17,333
when people aren't 
paying attention.

702
00:25:17,333 --> 00:25:20,533
And when what you are writing 
just matters so much to you

703
00:25:20,533 --> 00:25:22,000
that you'd be writing it anyway.

704
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,366
No one is ever, I hope, 
gonna hold a gun to my head

705
00:25:24,366 --> 00:25:26,666
and say we need another poem!

706
00:25:26,666 --> 00:25:29,033
The poems come because 
I need them here.

707
00:25:29,033 --> 00:25:30,966
[SMITH] Got it. 
[JONES] So whatever comes next,

708
00:25:30,966 --> 00:25:33,633
things are gonna 
have to quiet down.

709
00:25:33,633 --> 00:25:34,866
And I'll write again,

710
00:25:34,866 --> 00:25:37,566
in whatever privacy 
I'm able to construct.

711
00:25:37,566 --> 00:25:39,733
[SMITH] I thinks someone should 
make a movie of this book.

712
00:25:39,733 --> 00:25:41,766
[JONES] OK! 
[SMITH] That was my reaction.

713
00:25:41,766 --> 00:25:43,033
[JONES] Well-- 
[SMITH] So let's end

714
00:25:43,033 --> 00:25:44,633
with a cliffhanger. 
[JONES] OK! (laughing)

715
00:25:44,633 --> 00:25:46,100
[SMITH] Let's see if that jams. 
(laughing)

716
00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:47,033
Congratulations Saeed, 
thank you so much.

717
00:25:47,033 --> 00:25:48,533
[JONES] Thank you so much.

718
00:25:48,533 --> 00:25:49,866
[SMITH] Saeed Jones, give him 
a big hand. Good, thank you.

719
00:25:49,866 --> 00:25:52,700
(applauding)

720
00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:55,066
[SMITH] We'd love to have 
you join us in the studio.

721
00:25:55,066 --> 00:25:59,133
Visit our website at 
klru.org/overheard

722
00:25:59,133 --> 00:26:01,333
to find invitations 
to interviews,

723
00:26:01,333 --> 00:26:03,366
Q&As with our 
audience and guests,

724
00:26:03,366 --> 00:26:06,200
and an archive of past episodes.

725
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,100
[JONES] So for six years, 
I worked at BuzzFeed News

726
00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:13,000
in New York City where 
I lived until recently.

727
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,433
I edited, I ran a 
fellowship program.

728
00:26:16,433 --> 00:26:18,500
I was the first 
LGBT editor there.

729
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:20,933
I started in January 2013 
so it was right before

730
00:26:20,933 --> 00:26:22,800
those crucial Supreme 
Court decisions,

731
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,233
so I did all of that, I 
was editing, assigning,

732
00:26:25,233 --> 00:26:26,866
reporting, writing. 
[SMITH] Yeah.

733
00:26:26,866 --> 00:26:28,933
[ANNOUNCER] Funding for 
"Overheard with Evan Smith"

734
00:26:28,933 --> 00:26:32,200
is provided in part 
by HillCo Partners,

735
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,933
a Texas government 
affairs consultancy,

736
00:26:34,933 --> 00:26:37,100
Claire and Carl Stuart,

737
00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:40,933
and by Laura and John Beckworth, 
Hobby Family Foundation.

738
00:26:43,866 --> 00:26:45,900
(bright music)