[FEMALE ANNOUNCER] Funding for
"Overheard with Evan Smith"
is provided in part
by HillCo Partners,
a Texas government
affairs consultancy,
Claire and Carl Stuart,
and by Laura and John Beckworth,
Hobby Family Foundation.
[EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith,
he's an award winning
poet whose memoir,
"How We Fight For Our Lives"
has just been published.
He's Saeed Jones,
this is "Overheard."
(upbeat music)
[SMITH] Let's be honest, is
this about the ability to learn
or is this about the experience
of not having been
taught properly?
How have you avoided
what has befallen other
nations in Africa?
You could say that
he made his own bed,
but you caused him
to sleep in it.
You know, you saw a problem
and over time, took it on.
Let's start with the sizzle
before we get to the steak.
Are you gonna run for president?
I think I just got an
F from you, actually.
(laughing)
This is "Overheard."
(audience applauding)
[SMITH] Saeed Jones, welcome.
[SAEED JONES] Thank you, hey!
[SMITH] And congratulations--
[JONES] Thank you so much.
[SMITH] --on this. I think it's
an enormous accomplishment.
[JONES] Thank you.
[SMITH] Of this book.
As I shared with you
before we came out,
I don't like anything.
(laughing)
I'm not moved by anything.
[JONES] OK.
[SMITH] I'm totally closed off.
[JONES] Oh you're Elsa.
[SMITH] Well, sure OK.
[JONES] Cold.
[SMITH] The second time I
read this book, I got teary.
Because I really think that
it is as moving a story,
even though your story
is not everybody's story,
everybody's story
is not your story.
I'll come back to
this in a second,
the universality of it,
the fact that we all see
in ourselves, a
time in our lives
when we were trying to
figure out who we were.
Because really
that's what this--
[JONES] Yes, that is
it, that's the work.
[SMITH] That's what
the book is about.
Why did you decide to write it?
Basic question.
[JONES] I think
like many writers,
we write to understand.
We write because we're
curious and interested
in something that happened.
Something that I struggled with
though, as I was growing up,
and you see this
a bit in the book,
was that I knew I
wanted to be a writer.
I knew.
But as I was struggling to
come into an understanding
of my identity, my
race, sexuality, gender,
and really struggling with
depression and self-hate,
to be honest, the
impulses collided.
And so often when I was
younger, I would stay
in dangerous rooms,
figurative and literal,
because I was like "Well,
I can write about this.
"And doesn't that mean I'm in
control of what's going on?"
And so I struggle with that.
But that's a problem,
that's a problem.
And so I realized I
wanted to write the book
when I felt I had a
different intention.
[SMITH] So are you
writing yourself
out of the room essentially?
[JONES] Writing myself
out of the room,
and explaining why
for other people.
[SMITH] So it is
for other people.
And again, I think
there's something
that all of us can
take from this book.
But it sounds to me
like, what I suspected,
you also wrote this really for
you as much as for us, right?
[JONES] Sure, I think
certainly a memoir, right,
you're going into your
own personal history
and making sense of it.
And the challenges
of writing a memoir,
it's just instructive.
Because you have to
fully flesh yourself out
and other characters,
and the landscape.
I can't just say "Yeah
I grew up in Lewisville"
and you've got it, most
people will never be
in Lewisville, necessarily.
I have to bring it to life,
and that creative act,
you learn from it.
And then more memories
start to come.
Memory is an
unreliable narrator.
I think of it as a kind
of trickster figure.
You're grappling
with your memories.
We incorrectly remember
things, intentionally
and unintentionally,
all the time.
And so in the
five years in earnest that
I was writing the book,
from the time I sold it
and then publishing it,
I'm glad I'm a slow writer.
Because it allowed
memories to come up
and have time to
really separate--
[SMITH] You had to
work through that.
[JONES] I did.
[SMITH] You bring up
a couple of good points
about writing memoirs.
First thing is that
sometimes your own memory
is unreliable, you're
an unreliable narrator.
[JONES] Yes!
[SMITH] Of your own story.
[JONES] We are all the
unreliable narrators.
[SMITH] How certain are you,
since this is presented to us
as your story, how
certain are you
that your memories are, by
the time we read it, reliable?
[JONES] I think they're
reliable in the sense
that I'm pretty straightforward
in terms of my own reliability.
And I say there's
some really important,
high intensity moments
in the book and I go,
"I don't remember
what happened next.
"I don't remember what
she said, I wish I did."
[SMITH] But the
conversations recounted,
at least reflect what happened.
[JONES] They reflect what
happened. [SMITH] There are no
composite characters, right?
[JONES] Right.
[SMITH] It's a true
story. [JONES] Yeah,
and you know, sure.
And that's why I
try to be candid
about what I don't remember,
because I'm already asking
a lot of you as a reader
in that I'm using
fictive techniques.
I'm creating dialogue, right?
And so I'm trying to do my best.
But you try to rein it in.
That's why I try to
be very intentional
and sparing with
dialogue because listen,
most of us, we're lucky if
we can remember a few words
from a specific conversation--
[SMITH] That happened today!
[JONES] Today, this morning.
[SMITH] Today, right.
As opposed to going
back many years.
[JONES] Years later, totally.
[SMITH] The other part
about writing a memoir, that,
I've not written a
memoir, and would imagine
it would be difficult
for a lot of reasons.
But at least because you're
forced to access things
that you'd just as soon
not remember, or access.
So how much
self-editing did you do
of the difficult
parts of your story?
Having read this book
a couple of times,
it doesn't seem like
you left very much out.
(laughing)
Or anything that was difficult,
let me say it this way,
that you didn't shy away
from recounting things
that were difficult, in fact,
that almost seems to
have been the point.
[JONES] It was the point.
[SMITH] Right.
[JONES] The idea of
difficult subject matter,
I understand it
as a reader, I do.
And I recorded the audiobook
earlier this summer.
And I've gotta tell you,
reading the audiobook
was a totally
different experience.
[SMITH] Harder or easier?
[JONES] Harder.
Reading the audiobook was the
first time I got choked up.
[SMITH] Saying the
words out loud. [JONES]
Mm hmm, oh my gosh,
saying what that pastor says.
[SMITH] Yeah.
[JONES] Saying things
my grandmother and I,
we said to each other.
That was difficult.
And the last chapter,
that was the only time.
But as a writer, I
don't feel that way.
What was difficult was
writing about my mother,
she's not alive anymore.
[SMITH] Right.
[JONES] So I felt,
you know, I love her.
And I want to honor that
love, and being respectful.
[SMITH] She passed a while ago.
[JONES] She passed away in 2011.
[SMITH] Right, so she's of
course, not seen the book.
[JONES] Yeah, yeah, so I
feel respectful to her.
[SMITH] What would she
say about this book?
How would she feel about it?
[JONES] Hmm! Interesting.
[SMITH] Before we came
out today, we talked about
the fact that your grandmother
who's a significant
character in this book,
your uncle who is a less
significant character,
but is important.
[JONES] He's there.
[SMITH] They're
both still with us.
[JONES] They're still with
us. They read the book.
[SMITH] They've read the book.
Your mother never got the
opportunity to read it.
What would she say about it?
[JONES] Well she knew that I was
going to write a book one day.
When I was in graduate
school, she called me,
and she said "I told Grandma
you're writing a memoir one day
"and I explained what it was."
And I was like, "Uh,"
and I froze in my tracks
on college campus, where
I was in graduate school
at Rutgers, and I said
"What did she say?"
And she said "Uh oh!" (laughing)
[SMITH] She said "Uh oh."
(laughing)
[JONES] That's what Mildred
said! Uh oh, that was it.
So I think my mom was
aware of my intentions,
that it was a goal
down the line.
You know, it's hard.
I hope I made her proud.
One of my goals was to
make it clear to the reader
that my mother, my grandmother,
they are not literary
devices, they are people.
[SMITH] Right.
[JONES] They are women.
Black women in America
fighting for their own lives.
And I wanted to tell the story,
and of course, they're
a part of what goes on.
But I wanted the
reader to understand
that they have
their own stories.
And if my mom was
alive, maybe she'd go
"Oh maybe I'll write
my own book now."
[SMITH] Maybe she'll
tell her own story.
[JONES] Yeah.
[SMITH] Well, I think
you're unsparing
in your portrayal
of your mother and grandmother,
just to stay on this
point for a second.
And I don't mean that
in a negative sense.
I think that you're
honest about it.
You're not cruel to them.
You're not presenting
them in a negative light.
[JONES] Thank you.
[SMITH] You're presenting them
as who they are.
We're all flawed.
We all have challenges,
we all deal with them
the best we can.
[JONES] Yeah. (laughing)
[SMITH] Your mother's
life was extraordinary
'cause for one
thing, it gave you,
as you very clearly
say in the book,
you are who you are
because of who she was.
[JONES] Yes.
[SMITH] Late in the book there's
a line that says something
to the effect of "Our
mothers are who we all are."
Right?
[JONES] Our mothers
are why we are here.
[SMITH] Oh why we're here.
[JONES] Yeah, yeah.
[SMITH] We're all
products of that.
We're all somebody's kid.
[JONES] Yeah.
[SMITH] And I think
that in that respect,
there's a lot of admiration
for how she raised you
and who she allowed
you to become,
and how you became who
you were because of her.
But at the same time,
it's an honest portrayal
of the struggles
that your mother had
and the differences that you
have with your grandmother
which are material in
this book, as well.
I think you gotta respect it.
[JONES] Yeah.
[SMITH] They may be made
a little uncomfortable
by seeing it on the
page, but you know.
[JONES] Yeah, I mean,
it's interesting.
I talked to my grandmother
a few times about the book
while I was writing it. [SMITH]
While you were writing it.
[JONES] Mm hmm.
And she's very interesting.
She has never
attempted to reframe,
make excuses, control the story.
[SMITH] She is who she is.
[JONES] She's who she is.
And when she read it, the
first third of the book where,
for my grandmother and I in
particular, it's really fraught.
I never told my mom about
what happened that summer
with my grandmother and
I, and it's intense.
[SMITH] Say in short,
for the benefit of people
who have not yet read the book,
explain what we're
talking about.
[JONES] Sure, sure.
So my mom practiced
Nichiren Buddhism,
she chanted (speaking
foreign language)
Tina Turner, you
might know that,
if you know about
Tina Turner's life.
And the rest of our
family super do not
practice Nichiren Buddhism.
[SMITH] Right.
About the opposite
end of the spectrum.
[JONES] Yeah, about as far away,
devoutly Christian in
different denominations.
Some of my earliest memories
are of my family arguing.
Like me being short enough
to sit under the table
and I just remember
seeing everyone
yelling and shouting
about God and hell.
And by the time I'm a
teenager in the book,
you see me go to
Memphis for the summer,
as my mom, as single
parent often sent me home.
[SMITH] Where your
grandmother lives.
[JONES] Where my grandmother
lived, in Memphis.
We were used to going
to church every Sunday
and I didn't mind it.
But that summer she
started going to
an Evangelical
Pentecostal church
as opposed to the Black
Baptist church I was used to.
That was a change.
And I'm a teenager there.
Listen, any caregiver, any
teacher, mentor, listen,
it is scary, (laughing)
realizing your kid
is now becoming
this other entity.
They're getting bold,
they're talking back,
they're making choices.
It's a lot, in
America it's a lot.
So I understand her anxiety.
And I think she
responded to it by saying
"We're gonna get you to
church as much as possible."
[SMITH] More church
is the answer.
[JONES] More church
is the answer.
Yeah and so we were
going to church suddenly,
three or four nights a week
not including Sunday mornings.
It was just a lot, I felt
like it was all we did.
[SMITH] And looking back
now you don't begrudge her.
[JONES] I don't begrudge
her, it was a mistake.
It culminates in a
terrible mistake.
Because at the
end of the summer,
she takes me to the
front of the church,
takes me up to this man
that I did not know.
And I remember thinking about
that, we've never even spoken.
And she says "This is
my grandson, Saeed.
"His mother is Buddhist."
And he just nodded like
that was all the things
he would ever need to know
about me, and my mother,
who he also absolutely
had not met, right?
And he just started to pray.
And then he said "God,
this boy's mother
"has gone down the path of Satan
"and decided to
drag him down too."
[SMITH] Right. [JONES]
And speaking of dialogue,
I do remember
everything he said.
[SMITH] That he said.
[JONES] I will remember it
for the rest of my life.
I'll be dead and I'll
still remember it, Evan.
He said "Make her suffer."
[SMITH] Yeah.
[JONES] And he just goes
on in this elaborate curse
"Rain your plagues,
make her sick
"so that she will
suffer and realize
"she's down the wrong path,
and come back to the church
"and bring her son
with her, amen, amen."
That was the prayer,
which was a curse.
And so I draw that distinction
because, oh my God,
what cruelty.
[SMITH] Right.
[JONES] And I don't care
what you believe in,
but if you're trying
to persuade someone
about your religion
or life philosophy,
that's not the way to do it.
[SMITH] My point
was simply to say
that your grandmother didn't
wish this on you, herself.
[JONES] She didn't.
I think, and I talk
about this in the book.
If you had asked her put your
hand on the bible and testify,
why did you just do that?
I think she would've said
because I love my grandson.
Because I'm trying
to save his soul.
That's why that
part of the book,
there are harrowing,
terrifying (laughing)
sections in the
book, but for me,
that's the section
that is most painful.
Because it's an act of love.
And I think often, and we
need to talk about this more,
often we hurt, scare,
or harm one another out of love!
[SMITH] In the name of love,
right. [JONES] Out of concern.
America is scary.
Certainly if you are
raising a Black kid.
Certainly if you're
raising a gay kid.
Since I've been doing this book
tour for the last few weeks,
moms have come up to me and
they talk about Matthew Shepard
or they talk about Atatiana
Jefferson, young 28 woman--
[SMITH] In Forth Worth.
[JONES] In Fort Worth
who was just shot and killed,
and they're like "I am scared."
And sometimes when we're
scared, like my mother,
we get silent.
My mother and I had a
vibrant relationship.
But her response,
I think to fear
about having a gay Black son
was that she just couldn't
talk about sexuality.
That was the one silence.
For my grandmother, her
response was proactive.
She was like "Oh, OK,
I will save his soul."
[SMITH] Let's just
take him to church.
More church is the answer.
[JONES] More church.
[SMITH] So this book is, in
essence, a book about you
coming to terms with and better
understanding who you are.
[JONES] Yes.
[SMITH] Right.
[JONES] When I said earlier
that there was something
universal about it,
I sit here as a
straight white man
who grew up in the Northeast.
You're a gay Black man
who grew up in Texas.
But there is a
connection between us.
And I connected with
this book in part
because we've all been
through the process
of discovering who we are.
And so whether the narrative
through line in your story
is about sexual orientation,
or it's about race,
or it's about geography.
[SMITH] Because I think
geography-- [JONES]
Place is important.
is really important
in this book.
Nonetheless, what it's
fundamentally about
is understanding
better who you are,
discovering who you are.
[JONES] True, yeah.
[SMITH] And that really
is the point of this book.
[JONES] That's why it's
"How We Fight For Our Lives"
not how I fought for my life.
[SMITH] How you fought
for your life, right.
[JONES] Because,
and I'm so glad you
draw attention to the,
also you're the first
straight white man
who's gotten to interview
me for the book.
[SMITH] Is that right?
[JONES] How's it feel?
Is it good for you?
(laughing)
Good for you! (laughing)
[SMITH] I'm happy to
have that superlative.
[JONES] You're welcome,
you're welcome!
[SMITH] Thank you very
much, great, yeah.
[JONES] Wear it well!
But that's the
thing because we all
have gone through this process,
and are still going
through it, it never ends,
this work of
understanding who we are
and what we care about.
And so whether you
know it or not,
you are fighting for your life.
And I would argue that
if you think you aren't,
you've got a hell of
a fight yet to come.
[SMITH] And also if you
think you're ever done--
[JONES] Yeah!
[SMITH] --with that process
of understanding who
you are, you're wrong.
Because the fact is,
the end of this book,
it's not like OK, I'm done.
[JONES] Work's in progress.
[SMITH] Figured it out,
it's a work in progress.
So you mentioned
Matthew Shepard.
You called out Atatiana
Jefferson, but in the book
you actually talk
about also James Byrd.
[JONES] Yes.
[SMITH] Two things that
were, I think, significant,
they're mentioned
in passing, -ish,
but they seem significant
to me at least
in terms of understanding
how you are understanding
your environment--
[JONES] Absolutely.
[SMITH] --were the dragging
death of James Byrd
and the murder of
Matthew Shepard.
[JONES] Yes.
[SMITH] And understanding how
because you're gay
you can be killed.
Because you're Black
you can be killed.
That's just enough.
[JONES] Uh huh, that's enough.
[SMITH] Talk a little bit
about those two as backdrops.
[JONES] It's interesting
because I knew the climax
in Phoenix, Arizona
which we can talk about,
I knew that's where
we were going to go
as a writer and reader together.
And just organically,
truly, I was like okay,
so what are the
earliest iteration of
some of these themes
when I started being aware?
And I just started
writing about the summer.
These specific memories,
and I looked it up.
And I was like
"Oh, OK, May 1998.
"OK, huh, what was, oh my gosh!"
James Byrd, Jr.,
that is June of 1998,
that's Jasper, Texas, that is
four hours from Lewisville--
[SMITH] Lewisville which--
[JONES] --Texas,
is where I grew up.
[SMITH] Where you grew up,
which is just north of Dallas.
[JONES] Yep, yep, just up I-35,
right between Denton and Dallas.
So that's where
we're living when,
I write about us watching
it on the evening news,
hearing that he was beaten up
and chained to the
back of a truck
by three white men who offered
him a ride home from work.
They turned out to be
white supremacists.
And they dragged him until
his body was dismembered.
[SMITH] For the
sin of being Black.
[JONES] For the sin of being
Black, as they perceived it.
His body actually desegregated
that cemetery in Jasper.
And much like Emmett
Till's Memorial,
which was just recently
replaced, it's been graffitied
and covered in racial
slurs over and over again.
So that's June, and
I'm watching that.
I'm like "OK, well that's
one bit of information."
That October is when Matthew
Shepard, 21 years ago
in Laramie, Wyoming meets
two young men at a bar
and they're like "Hey,
you want to go drinking
"and go hang out?"
And they beat him and leave
him for dead in a field.
And of course, that
became a national story.
So it was like,
I'm 12 years old,
James Byrd, Jr.
I'm 12 years old--
[JONES] Matthew Shepard--
[SMITH] Matthew Shepard.
[JONES] I'm 12 years old,
all of that is happening.
[SMITH] It can't
help but be context.
[JONES] Yeah!
And we have to understand
this about young people.
Well before the age
of 12, by the way,
young people are always
reading the American room.
They are always watching us.
And certainly they
have more media now
than I did as a kid.
So there's a whole 'nother
level of social media.
But they see what's the news.
They hear what's
coming on the radio.
And I remember being in the car
and hearing shock jocks say
homophobic or racist things
and people are laughing.
And you turn around and you
look, are other people laughing?
Is my mom laughing?
No, OK, thank goodness.
[SMITH] But remember--
[JONES] You're paying
attention to that.
[SMITH] You're talking
about 21 years ago.
[JONES] Yeah.
[SMITH] When Byrd and Shepard
were both killed,
so 21 years later,
the next generation of
kids is even more aware.
[JONES] Yes.
[SMITH] Is even more plugged in,
[JONES] I think so.
[SMITH] Connected.
[JONES] I think so, some
things have changed.
When I was 12, the idea
of getting married one day
to a man that I
love was a fantasy.
[SMITH] How 'bout a gay
presidential candidate
campaigning with his husband?
[JONES] Who knew?
Who I might not even like!
Isn't that great?
(laughing)
I'm not required
to agree with him
because of our sexual
identity, or to agree
with some of the
other candidates
because of our racial,
we have options!
So things have
changed, you know.
Marriage equality is
a part of our life.
There is more representation.
[SMITH] In fact,
you talk in the book
about Obama being elected.
It's not a political
book as far as it goes,
although it's obviously
a political book.
One of the moments that is
more conventionally political
is oh, African
American president.
[JONES] Right, yeah.
[SMITH] But again--
[JONES] Deep anxiety.
[SMITH] Vastly different.
And yet also--
[JONES] Yeah, yeah.
Because, by the time I'm a
senior in college in Kentucky,
I went to Western
Kentucky University,
in a seminal moment in the book
that collides with his history,
it's right before he
gets the nomination,
right before Iowa, actually.
[SMITH] Iowa, yeah.
[JONES] Iowa Caucus.
And every morning I
woke up terrified--
[SMITH] He would
be assassinated.
[JONES] That he was gonna be
assassinated, and in fact
honestly, when he won,
I remember the inauguration
and they announced
that Michelle Obama
and Barack Obama
were going to walk
through the parade.
And I remember thinking,
please don't do that.
[SMITH] Please don't do it.
[JONES] Oh my gosh.
Because again, I am a Texas kid.
And every Texas kid has
been to the Grassy Knoll.
(laughing) We have those
images, and so I remember.
[SMITH] You remember.
[JONES] Yeah!
So the joy of the
breakthrough was tempered,
and look at us now!
The years after two terms
of a Black president.
Look at how America responds
to these breakthroughs,
it's complicated.
[SMITH] We seem to be worse
than we were before, or
at least we're saying
the quiet part out loud.
[JONES] It's almost like
we're being punished
for the breakthrough.
I think that's how
some people feel.
[SMITH] Can you talk
about the South again?
[JONES] Sure! (laughing) [SMITH]
Sense of place in this book
is so important. If you had
grown up in Lewisville, Maine,
or Lewisville, Washington State,
would the story be the
same story, necessarily?
[JONES] No, it
couldn't, it couldn't.
Something I'm struck by, and
I was talking with friends
here last night that the
thing about Texas, of course,
is that it was once a country.
[SMITH] Right.
[JONES] And so it rightfully
has this outsized
relationship to history
that most states
don't have, right?
It has a very different identity
and a sense of
importance. (laughing)
[SMITH] Importance
or self-importance?
[JONES] Self-importance,
and honestly you know
I was reading recently
'cause there are a lot of
wonderful books right now
about history, and
the history of Texas.
And I learned recently
Annette Gordon-Reed,
wonderful historian.
[SMITH] Yeah, great historian.
[JONES] She wrote
about this for the
New York Review of Books.
And she noted that an
outsized proportion
of hugely important Supreme
Court decisions come from Texas.
[SMITH] Come from Texas.
[JONES] And she explains that
Lawrence v. Texas
which I mention at
some point in the book,
that was the law, my
junior year of high school,
until my junior
year of high school
it was still technically
legal for police officers
to arrest men for having sex
with men, my junior year!
So I say all of that to say
I think Texas's identity
in relationship to the rest
of the country and my desire
to write a book that was
not just about my story,
but that was very
self-aware and understanding
that my story is a vital
element of the American story,
just as Texas is a vital element
of America's identity, right?
And that's complicated.
I think that's where
I got that from.
When you're growing up in
Texas, and you're just living,
you're always being
reminded of the identity.
[SMITH] But don't you think
though, that your story
is part of the American
story but the reason
that it hasn't been told is
because people haven't told it.
You've stepped up to tell it.
There are Saeed
Jonses other places.
[JONES] True.
[SMITH] Who had similar stories
and who have not had the
platform or the gumption.
[JONES] Yeah.
And that's an
important distinction.
People have been
telling this story.
People are doing
tremendous work.
I don't believe that
people are voiceless.
I think people in positions
of power don't wanna listen.
Or they're willfully--
[SMITH] It's about platforming.
[JONES] --silencing.
[SMITH] Of course.
I think I'm very fortunate
that for a book to resonate
and reach an audience, it's
not just about the book,
it's about the time,
it's about the place,
it's about the culture.
And the stars do
kinda have to align.
But yeah, I think, and I
mention this at one point
in the book, I'm often struck
by how many Black gay artists
and poets, in particular,
who I think of as
teachers on the page,
died of HIV, AIDS, or poverty,
or violence in their 20s,
who didn't make it
to their early 30s.
I'm 33 years old.
They were doing the work.
And I trust that they
would still be writing
and contributing
to our culture now.
I want to honor them.
And certainly, I am a gay man.
But I have family members
that identify as LGBT.
I have a cousin who
came out as trans.
And she has happily and
fiercely lived her life
in Dallas, Texas in the DFW
area, as long as I've known her,
since she was babysitting
me when I was a kid.
And so I think it is
important for me, and readers
to understand my story
and appreciate it.
But understand it's just
a part of a bigger story.
[SMITH] And the fact is,
because you told your story
and have told it in a way
that has been so celebrated
and so visible, there
are probably people
in the generation behind you
who are gonna feel empowered--
[JONES] Yeah, I hope so. [SMITH]
--now to tell their story.
In that way, you're
paying it forward.
[JONES] Absolutely, absolutely.
[SMITH] Aren't you?
We have just a
couple minutes left.
So you self-identify as a poet.
[JONES] Yeah!
[SMITH] Right.
[JONES] It's a worldview.
[SMITH] Are you still a poet?
[JONES] Yeah, I have to admit--
[SMITH] Because this
is long form writing.
[JONES] It sure is, for me.
[SMITH] It is very different.
As successful as
you were before,
two previously published books
of poetry, award-winning.
You do this, sort of a little
bit of a dog leg, right?
Do you simply go back to that?
How do you view
your writing life
and your creative
output now, after this?
[JONES] I think of
poet as a worldview.
Image, and language
are my two main
lenses to the world.
Everything else
goes through that.
And that comes from poetry.
I will take poetry
to whatever I do.
I think it informs
the way I play
and think on Twitter,
in my essays.
In the book there is lyricism.
There is a poem
that opens the book.
And I wanted to use what
I learned from poetry
to color the emotional
nuances of what's going on.
Because my prose is actually
pretty matter-of-fact, right?
The lyricism allows
me to, I think,
give you some
emotional information.
And then beyond that, I think--
[SMITH] You didn't write
your memoir as a long poem.
There's a reason-- [JONES]
I sure didn't, my goodness.
[SMITH] Well, the point
I make is that sometimes
form follows function.
[JONES] Form follows function.
I mean that's it.
[JONES] Yes, yes.
[SMITH] In this case,
the long form Saeed
has a bigger impact, right--
[JONES] Thank you.
[SMITH] --than short form Saeed.
[JONES] Yeah, and I think,
the weird thing about
universality is that I think
it's directly connected
to specificity.
And I think with poetry because
you're emphasizing sound
and image, you
can't just be like,
oh, and let me explain the
pragmatic, the details.
You begin to have to
kind of tighten the lens.
And so I wanted to open up.
I wanted to be able to
kinda flesh out this world
in a way that prose allows me.
[SMITH] So what do you do next?
[JONES] I don't know!
One, I think attention
is wonderful.
And it's bright,
and I'm so honored.
[SMITH] Also, as you
know, it's fleeting.
[JONES] It's fleeting, and
it's loud! It's distracting!
[SMITH] Yeah.
[JONES] You do your best work
when people aren't
paying attention.
And when what you are writing
just matters so much to you
that you'd be writing it anyway.
No one is ever, I hope,
gonna hold a gun to my head
and say we need another poem!
The poems come because
I need them here.
[SMITH] Got it.
[JONES] So whatever comes next,
things are gonna
have to quiet down.
And I'll write again,
in whatever privacy
I'm able to construct.
[SMITH] I thinks someone should
make a movie of this book.
[JONES] OK!
[SMITH] That was my reaction.
[JONES] Well--
[SMITH] So let's end
with a cliffhanger.
[JONES] OK! (laughing)
[SMITH] Let's see if that jams.
(laughing)
Congratulations Saeed,
thank you so much.
[JONES] Thank you so much.
[SMITH] Saeed Jones, give him
a big hand. Good, thank you.
(applauding)
[SMITH] We'd love to have
you join us in the studio.
Visit our website at
klru.org/overheard
to find invitations
to interviews,
Q&As with our
audience and guests,
and an archive of past episodes.
[JONES] So for six years,
I worked at BuzzFeed News
in New York City where
I lived until recently.
I edited, I ran a
fellowship program.
I was the first
LGBT editor there.
I started in January 2013
so it was right before
those crucial Supreme
Court decisions,
so I did all of that, I
was editing, assigning,
reporting, writing.
[SMITH] Yeah.
[ANNOUNCER] Funding for
"Overheard with Evan Smith"
is provided in part
by HillCo Partners,
a Texas government
affairs consultancy,
Claire and Carl Stuart,
and by Laura and John Beckworth,
Hobby Family Foundation.
(bright music)