1 00:00:01,433 --> 00:00:02,900 [FEMALE NARRATOR] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 2 00:00:02,900 --> 00:00:06,533 is provided in part by Hillco Partners, a Texas 3 00:00:06,533 --> 00:00:08,733 government affairs consultancy. 4 00:00:08,733 --> 00:00:11,400 The Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation. 5 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,933 Claire and Carl Stuart, and by Entergy. 6 00:00:15,933 --> 00:00:17,300 [EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith, 7 00:00:17,300 --> 00:00:19,300 they're senior writers for Politico 8 00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:22,866 and the coauthors of its must read Playbook newsletters. 9 00:00:22,866 --> 00:00:25,733 Their first book, instantly a best seller, 10 00:00:25,733 --> 00:00:28,500 is "The Hill to Die On: The Battle for Congress 11 00:00:28,500 --> 00:00:30,766 and the Future of Trump's America". 12 00:00:30,766 --> 00:00:33,033 They're Anna Palmer and Jake Sherman. 13 00:00:33,033 --> 00:00:33,966 This is Overheard. 14 00:00:35,466 --> 00:00:38,533 Let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn 15 00:00:38,533 --> 00:00:40,033 or is this about the experience 16 00:00:40,033 --> 00:00:41,600 of not having been taught properly? 17 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,233 How have you avoided what has befallen other nations 18 00:00:44,233 --> 00:00:46,800 in Africa? You could say that he made his own bed 19 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,066 but you caused him to sleep in it. 20 00:00:49,066 --> 00:00:51,800 You saw a problem and over time took it on 21 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,066 Let's start with 22 00:00:53,066 --> 00:00:55,166 the sizzle before we get to the steak. 23 00:00:55,166 --> 00:00:56,466 Are you gonna run for President? 24 00:00:56,466 --> 00:00:59,300 I think I just got an F from you, actually. 25 00:00:59,300 --> 00:01:00,266 This is Overheard. 26 00:01:00,266 --> 00:01:05,100 (audience cheering) 27 00:01:07,333 --> 00:01:08,866 [SMITH] Jake, Anna, welcome. 28 00:01:08,866 --> 00:01:10,400 [ANNA PALMER and JAKE SHERMAN] Thanks for having us. 29 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:11,833 [SMITH] Congratulations, I'm so happy to see you succeed. 30 00:01:11,833 --> 00:01:13,900 It's good when good people succeed. 31 00:01:13,900 --> 00:01:15,366 [SHERMAN] We'll take that as a compliment. 32 00:01:15,366 --> 00:01:17,333 [SMITH] I don't like it so much when bad people succeed, 33 00:01:17,333 --> 00:01:22,033 which happens. This book was 26 months of reporting, right? 34 00:01:22,033 --> 00:01:24,933 Did you know, did you know 26 months ago, 35 00:01:24,933 --> 00:01:26,900 did you know when you decided to write this book 36 00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:30,433 that Congress was going to be so off the rails? 37 00:01:30,433 --> 00:01:31,633 [PALMER] I don't think we knew 38 00:01:31,633 --> 00:01:33,233 how crazy it was going to get. 39 00:01:33,233 --> 00:01:34,866 I think we knew it was going to be interesting. 40 00:01:34,866 --> 00:01:37,033 [SMITH] You're in the position of praying for crazy, right? 41 00:01:37,033 --> 00:01:38,733 We've got a book, we hope it's crazy. 42 00:01:38,733 --> 00:01:40,233 Bad for the country, good for us. 43 00:01:40,233 --> 00:01:42,133 [PALMER] I mean, I think what really is true though, 44 00:01:42,133 --> 00:01:44,266 is you had Donald Trump, change candidate, 45 00:01:44,266 --> 00:01:46,366 change election saying he's gonna up end 46 00:01:46,366 --> 00:01:49,400 the way Washington works. You had Republicans 47 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,233 controlling everything for the first time 48 00:01:51,233 --> 00:01:52,866 in a long time, salivating, trying to think 49 00:01:52,866 --> 00:01:54,800 about what deals they could get done. 50 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,300 And you knew there was gonna be a lot of drama, 51 00:01:56,300 --> 00:01:58,666 because Republicans are probably gonna lose the House. 52 00:01:58,666 --> 00:02:00,800 [SMITH] Donald Trump may have told 10,000 lies 53 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,333 but "I'm gonna up end everything" was true. 54 00:02:03,333 --> 00:02:05,366 [SHERMAN] Yeah it was, but remember there was another 55 00:02:05,366 --> 00:02:06,833 candidate who said he was gonna do that. 56 00:02:06,833 --> 00:02:09,766 And it was Barack Obama, and Washington is a city 57 00:02:09,766 --> 00:02:12,666 much like Austin or any kind of power center 58 00:02:12,666 --> 00:02:15,366 that doesn't change so easily. [SMITH] Resistant to change. 59 00:02:15,366 --> 00:02:17,300 [SHERMAN] Right, and what we didn't know though, 60 00:02:17,300 --> 00:02:20,433 was that in that period, from Election Day 2016 61 00:02:20,433 --> 00:02:23,233 'til 2018, crazy stuff would happen. 62 00:02:23,233 --> 00:02:25,266 We didn't know that because of Donald Trump. 63 00:02:25,266 --> 00:02:27,366 We knew that because we had covered Congress 64 00:02:27,366 --> 00:02:28,866 for a decade and we had written about 65 00:02:28,866 --> 00:02:30,433 the craziest things we'd ever imagined. 66 00:02:30,433 --> 00:02:31,966 [SMITH] Except, it exceeded expectations. 67 00:02:31,966 --> 00:02:33,400 [SHERMAN] Yes, right. [PALMER] I mean, there were 68 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,633 things that happened, whether it was Brett Kavanaugh, 69 00:02:35,633 --> 00:02:37,433 I don't think we would have ever said and thought, 70 00:02:37,433 --> 00:02:39,833 oh, we're gonna have a Supreme Court nomination chapter. 71 00:02:39,833 --> 00:02:42,533 Or all the sexual harassment stuff that happened 72 00:02:42,533 --> 00:02:44,633 and really permeated Capitol Hill 73 00:02:44,633 --> 00:02:47,133 for several of the months, and then the shut down 74 00:02:47,133 --> 00:02:48,566 and the immigration fight I think, 75 00:02:48,566 --> 00:02:51,100 was crazier than anybody, way more dramatic 76 00:02:51,100 --> 00:02:52,666 than anybody would have thought. 77 00:02:52,666 --> 00:02:53,933 [SHERMAN] But we did know we had a Speaker of the House, 78 00:02:53,933 --> 00:02:56,066 Paul Ryan, who not hated the president, 79 00:02:56,066 --> 00:02:58,100 but during the campaign, certainly didn't 80 00:02:58,100 --> 00:03:00,833 see eye to eye with the president or with the candidate 81 00:03:00,833 --> 00:03:03,266 at the time. And we had Nancy Pelosi who was 82 00:03:03,266 --> 00:03:05,533 trying to get power again. And we had Mitch McConnell 83 00:03:05,533 --> 00:03:08,933 who would be able to try to use the president 84 00:03:08,933 --> 00:03:10,666 to try to achieve his ends, so we had a mix 85 00:03:10,666 --> 00:03:13,166 of power, people who were in positions of power 86 00:03:13,166 --> 00:03:14,833 who were gonna benefit from Donald Trump. 87 00:03:14,833 --> 00:03:16,533 [SMITH] Well, the key element to any good story 88 00:03:16,533 --> 00:03:18,733 is great characters, and you had the absolute 89 00:03:18,733 --> 00:03:20,100 best characters, probably more than you could 90 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:23,233 have ever hoped for. [PALMER] We had some really good 91 00:03:23,233 --> 00:03:25,333 advice early on which was saying, you really need 92 00:03:25,333 --> 00:03:27,566 to pick the characters and follow them. 93 00:03:27,566 --> 00:03:29,533 And so you had the kind of the characters 94 00:03:29,533 --> 00:03:31,600 that you thought for sure right, Donald Trump, 95 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,000 Nancy Pelosi, mentioned Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell. 96 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,033 But then you had the Freedom Caucus, which is just 97 00:03:36,033 --> 00:03:37,966 ripe for you know -- [SMITH] If you're a political 98 00:03:37,966 --> 00:03:41,200 journalist, the Freedom Caucus is Christmas every day. 99 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:42,700 Isn't it? [SHERMAN] Yes, but you know 100 00:03:42,700 --> 00:03:44,366 they're actually, they're close to the president, 101 00:03:44,366 --> 00:03:46,200 but they couldn't be more media savvy. 102 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,633 I mean, I spent so much time with Jim Jordan 103 00:03:48,633 --> 00:03:50,566 and Mark Meadows, I traveled with them. 104 00:03:50,566 --> 00:03:53,800 I went to visit Jim Jordan at his home in Ohio. 105 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,233 They are really people who respect what the press does. 106 00:03:57,233 --> 00:03:58,966 And it might sound ironic, because they are 107 00:03:58,966 --> 00:04:01,933 close allies of the president, but they give a lot 108 00:04:01,933 --> 00:04:04,900 of access to reporters and really try to explain 109 00:04:04,900 --> 00:04:06,633 what they're up to. [SMITH] Does writing a book 110 00:04:06,633 --> 00:04:09,166 like this today, when everything is being told to us 111 00:04:09,166 --> 00:04:12,900 Anna, in real time, we are watching the events play out 112 00:04:12,900 --> 00:04:16,266 at a kind of microsecond level, as never before. 113 00:04:16,266 --> 00:04:17,566 In the old days you know, you'd write a book 114 00:04:17,566 --> 00:04:19,266 that was about the political campaign. 115 00:04:19,266 --> 00:04:21,633 The sort of standard deal where we're not 116 00:04:21,633 --> 00:04:22,900 gonna report any of the stuff until 117 00:04:22,900 --> 00:04:25,400 after the campaign and it would hold. 118 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,533 You say in the book that you did interviews 119 00:04:27,533 --> 00:04:29,200 over the course of all this, and you had certain 120 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,100 conditions that people you talked to 121 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:33,233 agreed to, who were gonna not report some of the stuff 122 00:04:33,233 --> 00:04:36,733 until afterwards but, how does this stuff hold 123 00:04:36,733 --> 00:04:39,100 in this era for as long as it did? 124 00:04:39,100 --> 00:04:41,333 [PALMER] I think it was kind of terrifying as first time 125 00:04:41,333 --> 00:04:44,133 reporters that were doing this, but I do think 126 00:04:44,133 --> 00:04:46,933 upon reflection, we benefited from the fact 127 00:04:46,933 --> 00:04:50,166 that the media is always moving on to the next story 128 00:04:50,166 --> 00:04:52,733 and that Donald Trump, the president, takes up 129 00:04:52,733 --> 00:04:54,700 so much oxygen in Washington. And this is really 130 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:57,166 a book about Congress in the era of Trump. 131 00:04:57,166 --> 00:04:59,966 And so, people really gave us a lot of access 132 00:04:59,966 --> 00:05:01,533 because we were reconstructing things, 133 00:05:01,533 --> 00:05:03,333 and it wasn't gonna impact the election 134 00:05:03,333 --> 00:05:05,200 or the next vote the next day. They knew that they had 135 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,233 months, even over a year before it was gonna come out. 136 00:05:09,233 --> 00:05:10,933 [SMITH] The idea that we're being distracted, Jake, 137 00:05:10,933 --> 00:05:13,333 as much as we are by events, I mean things happen today 138 00:05:13,333 --> 00:05:15,533 and in the old days they would have had hang time 139 00:05:15,533 --> 00:05:18,266 on the front page of a paper or on the evening news. 140 00:05:18,266 --> 00:05:21,033 One day, two days, three days, literally five minutes pass, 141 00:05:21,033 --> 00:05:23,300 something else pushes a major story off 142 00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:25,666 of the front page. You benefit from that sort of, don't you? 143 00:05:25,666 --> 00:05:28,566 [SHERMAN] Huge, I mean I watch good reporters, 144 00:05:28,566 --> 00:05:31,100 great reporters, reporters that should be sinking their 145 00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:33,633 teeth into meaty issues and projects like this 146 00:05:33,633 --> 00:05:37,000 on Capitol Hill be chasing members of Congress 147 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:38,600 around saying "What do you think of the president's 148 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,166 most recent tweet? What do you think of this?" 149 00:05:40,166 --> 00:05:43,300 And we were able to, to an extent, step back and say, 150 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:45,666 "Okay, well, while this is happening, I'm gonna go meet 151 00:05:45,666 --> 00:05:49,033 with Mark Meadows about what his conversations were 152 00:05:49,033 --> 00:05:50,933 with his friends, with his colleagues, 153 00:05:50,933 --> 00:05:52,333 what he thinks about the president. 154 00:05:52,333 --> 00:05:54,633 We weren't asking them to reflect backward, 155 00:05:54,633 --> 00:05:56,566 we were asking them to say, in the moment, 156 00:05:56,566 --> 00:05:59,800 what are you thinking right now? And just by showing 157 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,433 an interest in their work, they had a buy-in 158 00:06:03,433 --> 00:06:05,933 in it too, I think, was part of the -- 159 00:06:05,933 --> 00:06:07,566 [PALMER] You know I totally agree, and I think the other 160 00:06:07,566 --> 00:06:08,533 thing that we really benefited from 161 00:06:08,533 --> 00:06:10,033 is because members of Congress, 162 00:06:10,033 --> 00:06:11,700 I mean they feel like they have a great story to tell. 163 00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:15,733 They are working for longer, decades in Washington 164 00:06:15,733 --> 00:06:18,400 where a president comes in four years, eight years. 165 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,333 And most of the time, there's so much more attention 166 00:06:21,333 --> 00:06:22,966 the press plays on the White House, 167 00:06:22,966 --> 00:06:24,800 that we were saying no, we want your story. 168 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,866 [SMITH] Right, well the president is, as a general rule, 169 00:06:27,866 --> 00:06:30,300 temporary and we, including Congress, 170 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:31,766 the institution, are permanent. 171 00:06:31,766 --> 00:06:34,733 But this president is not just any president. 172 00:06:34,733 --> 00:06:37,100 And in fact, you got an opportunity to talk to him 173 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:40,233 for this book, and basically, as you say in the book, 174 00:06:40,233 --> 00:06:42,233 he wants everything to be about him. 175 00:06:42,233 --> 00:06:44,733 The interview you did with him about Congress 176 00:06:44,733 --> 00:06:46,466 and about this here, he basically turned everything 177 00:06:46,466 --> 00:06:49,400 back on him. [SHERMAN] He did. I think 178 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,800 the thing about him that we found most interesting, 179 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,400 a few things, he's much more personally engaging -- 180 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,000 [SMITH] Yeah yeah, talk about that, because most of us 181 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,066 out in the world think we have a sense of what 182 00:06:59,066 --> 00:07:01,200 he's like up close, but you actually have been up close. 183 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:02,700 So what's -- [SHERMAN] And we're not 184 00:07:02,700 --> 00:07:04,033 experts on him, but I can tell you our reflections 185 00:07:04,033 --> 00:07:05,300 from our experience. [SMITH] You've been in the room 186 00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:07,933 though, yeah. [SHERMAN] He's very interested 187 00:07:07,933 --> 00:07:11,833 in people. He's very interested in talking shop. 188 00:07:11,833 --> 00:07:13,666 And you wouldn't expect that because this is a guy 189 00:07:13,666 --> 00:07:16,033 who wasn't involved in politics for a long time. 190 00:07:16,033 --> 00:07:18,766 And he expects backbreaking loyalty. 191 00:07:18,766 --> 00:07:21,866 And we write this in the book, but doesn't return any. 192 00:07:21,866 --> 00:07:26,133 He expects people to jump off proverbial bridges 193 00:07:26,133 --> 00:07:29,466 for him. Yet when it comes time to return that 194 00:07:29,466 --> 00:07:31,566 he's not always there for that person. 195 00:07:31,566 --> 00:07:33,833 And even those members of Congress who expect 196 00:07:33,833 --> 00:07:35,266 that loyalty from him don't get it. 197 00:07:35,266 --> 00:07:36,866 [PALMER] Yeah, I think we also, 198 00:07:36,866 --> 00:07:38,933 I think if given the opportunity 199 00:07:38,933 --> 00:07:41,466 he would spend multiple hours a day 200 00:07:41,466 --> 00:07:43,533 talking to reporters, he likes talking to reporters. 201 00:07:43,533 --> 00:07:45,533 He's very media savvy, he's done it for a really long time. 202 00:07:45,533 --> 00:07:47,600 [SMITH] Even out of the news organizations that he 203 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,733 takes out after on Twitter, the failing New York Times. 204 00:07:50,733 --> 00:07:52,766 But then he calls Maggie Haberman, or the Bezos 205 00:07:52,766 --> 00:07:55,800 Amazon Washington Post, and he calls Bob Costa. 206 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,933 [PALMER] I mean I would venture, I don't have his chronicle, 207 00:07:59,933 --> 00:08:01,466 but I would venture that this president has given 208 00:08:01,466 --> 00:08:03,500 more interviews in the two and a half years 209 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:05,366 that he's been president, to the New York Times, 210 00:08:05,366 --> 00:08:07,300 than Barack Obama did for all eight. 211 00:08:07,300 --> 00:08:09,400 [SMITH] And probably broadly more accessible to the press 212 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:10,933 than Obama was in the sense that he may 213 00:08:10,933 --> 00:08:12,733 not be doing formal press conferences, but under 214 00:08:12,733 --> 00:08:15,400 the helicopter blades, or this gaggle, right? 215 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,800 [PALMER] Absolutely, I mean he is unlike anything 216 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,633 we've ever seen in terms of one, you have that access, 217 00:08:20,633 --> 00:08:23,133 but then you also have a real time with his Twitter feed 218 00:08:23,133 --> 00:08:25,600 how he is feeling in the moment, which is really 219 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,266 something that reporters never get 220 00:08:27,266 --> 00:08:28,533 at a principle of that level. 221 00:08:28,533 --> 00:08:30,566 [SMITH] Do you consider his Twitter feed, Jake, 222 00:08:30,566 --> 00:08:33,666 to be legitimate as a source of news? 223 00:08:33,666 --> 00:08:36,333 [SHERMAN] Yeah I find the argument befuddling that it's not. 224 00:08:36,333 --> 00:08:39,633 I don't think it's an unbiased and unvarnished 225 00:08:39,633 --> 00:08:41,866 source of truth. [SMITH] But he's the president, 226 00:08:41,866 --> 00:08:44,400 he said it, it's news, period. 227 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,866 [SHERMAN] Yes, 100 percent. 228 00:08:46,866 --> 00:08:49,366 Just to follow up on what Anna said, 229 00:08:49,366 --> 00:08:52,033 I think that the interesting thing about the president 230 00:08:52,033 --> 00:08:55,666 is that he is always in search of elite approval. 231 00:08:55,666 --> 00:08:57,166 Approval from the New York Times. 232 00:08:57,166 --> 00:08:59,833 Approval from big networks. [SMITH] He's still a kid 233 00:08:59,833 --> 00:09:01,933 who grew up in Queens and he had sort of, 234 00:09:01,933 --> 00:09:04,133 bridge, bus, and tunnel envy of the big city. 235 00:09:04,133 --> 00:09:05,733 [SHERMAN] Exactly. And he says that, he says, 236 00:09:05,733 --> 00:09:07,633 "Can't I get a good story out of 237 00:09:07,633 --> 00:09:09,433 my hometown paper once in a while? 238 00:09:09,433 --> 00:09:12,033 I'm a kid from Queens." I mean, he said this. 239 00:09:12,033 --> 00:09:13,366 You can go back and look at the transcripts 240 00:09:13,366 --> 00:09:14,866 of the interviews of the New York Times. 241 00:09:14,866 --> 00:09:18,466 Which people, when I tell some of my conservative 242 00:09:18,466 --> 00:09:21,000 friends this, they just are like, what is he doing? 243 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,600 Why does he care so much about what the Times says? 244 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,200 They wanna take him down. [SMITH] Because he's who 245 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,166 he always was. He was the kid from Queens. 246 00:09:27,166 --> 00:09:28,600 [SHERMAN] Exactly, exactly. 247 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,700 [SMITH] Is he nice? [PALMER] Oh, I think he is 248 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:33,633 very personable, you can tell he was in the 249 00:09:33,633 --> 00:09:36,466 hospitality industry for his entire career. 250 00:09:36,466 --> 00:09:39,666 That comes across, I think he seems genuinely interested, 251 00:09:39,666 --> 00:09:40,900 whether he is or not. 252 00:09:40,900 --> 00:09:42,766 I mean, he'd talk about golf courses with Jake 253 00:09:42,766 --> 00:09:44,266 or different things like that, yeah. 254 00:09:44,266 --> 00:09:46,066 I think he tries to find a commonality and a connection 255 00:09:46,066 --> 00:09:47,466 with people. [SHERMAN] I'll take you behind 256 00:09:47,466 --> 00:09:49,433 the curtain for one second, it was interesting. 257 00:09:49,433 --> 00:09:52,566 So we had a few questions we were able to ask 258 00:09:52,566 --> 00:09:57,466 for Politico, for daily consumption, but 99 percent 259 00:09:57,466 --> 00:09:59,533 of our interview, or 90 percent is for the book. 260 00:09:59,533 --> 00:10:02,866 And we, at a certain point, one of his handlers said, 261 00:10:02,866 --> 00:10:05,133 "All right Mr. President, that was all for the book. 262 00:10:05,133 --> 00:10:08,633 Now are the questions that could be used at any time." 263 00:10:08,633 --> 00:10:10,700 Kind of like warning him what the story was. 264 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:12,233 And he said, "I don't care, they could use 265 00:10:12,233 --> 00:10:14,966 all of this right now." It's funny how he's 266 00:10:14,966 --> 00:10:18,533 just, he loves the back and forth with reporters. 267 00:10:18,533 --> 00:10:20,333 And especially because we weren't there 268 00:10:20,333 --> 00:10:22,866 to get into a fight with him. We were there 269 00:10:22,866 --> 00:10:25,066 to ask him about his view of other people 270 00:10:25,066 --> 00:10:26,566 and people that he interacts with. 271 00:10:26,566 --> 00:10:28,066 [SMITH] So on the subject of his view of other people, 272 00:10:28,066 --> 00:10:30,366 I wonder if he's not his own worst enemy sometimes, 273 00:10:30,366 --> 00:10:33,433 in terms of how he takes after people he needs. 274 00:10:33,433 --> 00:10:34,966 So Paul Ryan is a great example. 275 00:10:34,966 --> 00:10:37,200 Paul Ryan is as much an important character 276 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,900 in this book as any character in this book is. 277 00:10:40,900 --> 00:10:42,966 And the president at various points was pretty 278 00:10:42,966 --> 00:10:46,766 unkind publicly and privately to Paul Ryan. 279 00:10:46,766 --> 00:10:48,666 Who after all was Speaker of the House, 280 00:10:48,666 --> 00:10:52,266 the Republican leader in one of two chambers of Congress. 281 00:10:52,266 --> 00:10:55,266 He needed Paul Ryan to be on the same page 282 00:10:55,266 --> 00:10:57,900 with him to a large degree, to get anything accomplished. 283 00:10:57,900 --> 00:10:59,333 And yet he felt perfectly comfortable taking 284 00:10:59,333 --> 00:11:01,466 out after him. [PALMER] I just think 285 00:11:01,466 --> 00:11:03,933 you have to realize that as Jake mentioned earlier, 286 00:11:03,933 --> 00:11:06,666 in the beginning, Paul Ryan was not with him 287 00:11:06,666 --> 00:11:08,433 on the campaign trail. [SMITH] He was still Speaker though. 288 00:11:08,433 --> 00:11:10,100 [PALMER] Yes, he was still Speaker, but there was not even 289 00:11:10,100 --> 00:11:12,466 a single photo of the two of them during the entire 290 00:11:12,466 --> 00:11:15,000 campaign season. Paul Ryan was the Chairman of the 291 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,066 Republican Convention, and this is your nominee. 292 00:11:18,066 --> 00:11:19,866 There's not a single photo of the two of them together. 293 00:11:19,866 --> 00:11:22,366 I also think that you have to realize 294 00:11:22,366 --> 00:11:25,033 that Paul Ryan let the president down early, 295 00:11:25,033 --> 00:11:27,633 very early, he came up to Trump Tower 296 00:11:27,633 --> 00:11:29,433 right after the election saying "This is what I 297 00:11:29,433 --> 00:11:31,000 wanna do, we're gonna do healthcare, that's gonna make 298 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,700 room for tax reform and then we're gonna do this, 299 00:11:33,700 --> 00:11:35,733 we're gonna get all this passed." And he had this whole 300 00:11:35,733 --> 00:11:37,766 kind of process laid out, healthcare -- 301 00:11:37,766 --> 00:11:41,066 [SMITH] Didn't happen. [PALMER] Inflamed, and so all 302 00:11:41,066 --> 00:11:42,866 of a sudden, he's getting killed in the first 303 00:11:42,866 --> 00:11:44,400 couple months of his presidency, and it's because 304 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,300 this guy promised him, the Speaker, 305 00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:47,466 that he was gonna be the guy 306 00:11:47,466 --> 00:11:48,733 that was gonna get the job done. 307 00:11:48,733 --> 00:11:50,000 [SHERMAN] I have a lot of thoughts about this. 308 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,000 And so does Anna, as you can tell. 309 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,200 Donald Trump ran a family company 310 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,366 where he didn't need anyone's approval to do anything. 311 00:11:56,366 --> 00:11:58,500 [SMTIH] People think that the Trump organization was big. 312 00:11:58,500 --> 00:11:59,766 It was actually pretty small, right? 313 00:11:59,766 --> 00:12:01,666 [SHERMAN] And he was the sole deciding factor, 314 00:12:01,666 --> 00:12:03,733 from what we know. [SMITH] Right, everything we think. 315 00:12:03,733 --> 00:12:05,600 [SHERMAN] Couldn't speak to his corporate structure. 316 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,100 [SMITH] I think it's all Eric. We're gonna discover 317 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:12,000 in the last scene of the movie, it was Eric all along. 318 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,366 [SHERMAN] Right, and Donald's a robot or something. 319 00:12:14,366 --> 00:12:18,500 So I think when he came to Washington 320 00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:21,533 and had to deal with Congressional committees 321 00:12:21,533 --> 00:12:23,766 and the Speaker of the House. [PALMER] Process. 322 00:12:23,766 --> 00:12:25,600 [SHERMAN] In Washington -- [SMITH] He thought he was 323 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,433 running the America Organization, didn't he? 324 00:12:27,433 --> 00:12:29,266 [SHERMAN] Exactly, and there's this amazing scene 325 00:12:29,266 --> 00:12:31,733 we have in our book where Jared Kushner is in a room 326 00:12:31,733 --> 00:12:34,533 with all of, a bunch of Republican leadership aides 327 00:12:34,533 --> 00:12:37,866 and he says, they're talking about the committee process. 328 00:12:37,866 --> 00:12:40,666 The process by which Congress has been operating 329 00:12:40,666 --> 00:12:43,766 for you know, 150, 200 years, and Jared says, 330 00:12:43,766 --> 00:12:46,200 that sounds inefficient, we'll get to that later. 331 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,266 As if he felt like, this was something where he could 332 00:12:49,266 --> 00:12:51,966 change the process -- [SMITH] Wave a wand 333 00:12:51,966 --> 00:12:53,933 and everything fixes. [SHERMAN] And it, but by the way, 334 00:12:53,933 --> 00:12:55,966 this isn't so far removed from Barack Obama, 335 00:12:55,966 --> 00:12:59,233 who also thought, who had similar kind of, 336 00:12:59,233 --> 00:13:01,500 who had been in Washington but his administration 337 00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:03,100 didn't like the slow pace either. 338 00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:04,600 [SMITH] Right. The upside of having an outsider 339 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,666 as president is that the person is not bound 340 00:13:06,666 --> 00:13:08,733 by what's always been. The downside of having 341 00:13:08,733 --> 00:13:10,166 an outsider as president, is that the person 342 00:13:10,166 --> 00:13:12,066 is not bound by what's always been, right? 343 00:13:12,066 --> 00:13:13,600 I mean, there's an upside to a downside, 344 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,366 downside to the upside. [PALMER] Yeah, I mean, 345 00:13:15,366 --> 00:13:17,200 I think we've seen that to the fits and starts 346 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:18,733 of his first two and a half years, right? 347 00:13:18,733 --> 00:13:21,500 In some ways the audacity of tax reform 348 00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:23,000 and thinking that they could get it done 349 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:24,600 as fast as they could get it done 350 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,966 would never have happened for most politicians 351 00:13:26,966 --> 00:13:28,400 who would say, "No, that's gonna take, 352 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,833 you know, at least two years, four years, you know. 353 00:13:30,833 --> 00:13:32,533 We're gonna have to have all the committees." 354 00:13:32,533 --> 00:13:34,833 This president pushed that along in a way 355 00:13:34,833 --> 00:13:36,333 and believed that it could happen. 356 00:13:36,333 --> 00:13:38,266 Where most people who were steeped in politics 357 00:13:38,266 --> 00:13:39,866 would say, "Oh that's, we just can't do that. 358 00:13:39,866 --> 00:13:41,666 [SMITH] Do you think that in the end, Jake, Anna, 359 00:13:41,666 --> 00:13:44,300 whatever happens next, whether it's after 2020 360 00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:46,433 or after 2024 that we go back to something 361 00:13:46,433 --> 00:13:49,933 that looks more normal? [SHERMAN] I don't know it's tough 362 00:13:49,933 --> 00:13:51,333 to say. We keep saying to people that we 363 00:13:51,333 --> 00:13:53,400 don't know how long this tale is. 364 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,600 And we did an event with Maggie Haberman 365 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,100 as you mentioned in New York, where we got 366 00:13:57,100 --> 00:13:59,566 a similar question, and it was very, 367 00:13:59,566 --> 00:14:01,300 we kind of struggled with that answer. 368 00:14:01,300 --> 00:14:02,800 We don't know. I don't think everything will 369 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,266 go back to being normal, or won't go back 370 00:14:05,266 --> 00:14:06,933 to being as it was before. It's impossible 371 00:14:06,933 --> 00:14:08,600 to say what's normal, and it's impossible 372 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,733 to say how the next president will use social media. 373 00:14:11,733 --> 00:14:13,000 [SMITH] Well, but you know what I mean. 374 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,633 So if Mitt Romney had been elected in 2012, 375 00:14:14,633 --> 00:14:18,366 or Jeb Bush, low energy Jeb, had been elected in 2016, 376 00:14:18,366 --> 00:14:23,266 we would have seen something that looked more normal. 377 00:14:23,266 --> 00:14:25,666 You had disagreements within normal parameters, 378 00:14:25,666 --> 00:14:28,266 right, as opposed to this complete abrogation 379 00:14:28,266 --> 00:14:31,333 of every bit of normal behavior in approach 380 00:14:31,333 --> 00:14:33,066 to governing, right? [PALMER] I don't know though. 381 00:14:33,066 --> 00:14:34,733 I push back a little bit on that 382 00:14:34,733 --> 00:14:36,866 because when you look at some of these new members 383 00:14:36,866 --> 00:14:39,633 that are coming, the freshmen that have been elected, 384 00:14:39,633 --> 00:14:41,966 I think they are much more comfortable 385 00:14:41,966 --> 00:14:44,566 and authentic in terms of using Twitter, 386 00:14:44,566 --> 00:14:47,066 and they are much less beholden to, both sides, 387 00:14:47,066 --> 00:14:49,133 much less beholden to the party structure. 388 00:14:49,133 --> 00:14:51,100 In the same way that Nancy Pelosi has a lot 389 00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:52,633 of problems on her hands because she's got 390 00:14:52,633 --> 00:14:54,533 a lot of members that haven't spent their entire 391 00:14:54,533 --> 00:14:55,866 career in politics. [SMITH] So in some ways 392 00:14:55,866 --> 00:14:57,700 the elimination of what we think of 393 00:14:57,700 --> 00:15:00,000 as normal behavior is a little bit on the president, 394 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,066 but it's also on AOC. [SHERMAN] Sure. 395 00:15:02,066 --> 00:15:04,033 Right, and some would argue that that's a response, 396 00:15:04,033 --> 00:15:07,333 obviously, and that's a direct response. 397 00:15:07,333 --> 00:15:09,000 Don't know the answer to that. 398 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:10,633 I do think though, when you mentioned Jeb, 399 00:15:10,633 --> 00:15:12,366 and you mentioned Mitt Romney, what a lot of 400 00:15:12,366 --> 00:15:14,133 Republicans tell us behind the scenes is, 401 00:15:14,133 --> 00:15:17,033 ignore the noise, ignore all of that, 402 00:15:17,033 --> 00:15:18,966 and look at what he's done, is it different 403 00:15:18,966 --> 00:15:22,233 than anything Mitt Romney or Jeb Bush would have done? 404 00:15:22,233 --> 00:15:23,733 We had very high level people tell us that 405 00:15:23,733 --> 00:15:26,466 in interviews that we had. [SMITH] It was substantive? 406 00:15:26,466 --> 00:15:29,500 [SHERMAN] Substantively. [SMITH] Look, Trump, on the judges, 407 00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:31,433 what Conservatives will say is, "I might not like 408 00:15:31,433 --> 00:15:33,133 his tweets, I might not like the way he deals 409 00:15:33,133 --> 00:15:35,033 with people, but how could I not like the judges? 410 00:15:35,033 --> 00:15:36,700 How can I not like the tax cuts?" 411 00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:38,433 [SHERMAN] Right and the regulation-- [SMITH] Regulation. 412 00:15:38,433 --> 00:15:40,133 [SHERMAN] --cut back, and all those things. 413 00:15:40,133 --> 00:15:43,733 There's a point to that, but that's like you know, 414 00:15:43,733 --> 00:15:45,600 eating a dish that you don't like and saying, 415 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,233 "Well, at least there was bread in it, 416 00:15:47,233 --> 00:15:48,733 and you like bread." You know what I mean? 417 00:15:48,733 --> 00:15:52,800 It doesn't make sense on the whole. 418 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,633 [SMITH] So Speaker Pelosi's name has come up, Anna, 419 00:15:54,633 --> 00:15:58,966 and the return of Nancy Pelosi to the Speakership 420 00:15:58,966 --> 00:16:02,566 is another significant narrative thread in this book. 421 00:16:02,566 --> 00:16:05,633 And you gotta admire her, whether you like her 422 00:16:05,633 --> 00:16:07,666 or don't like her, whether you agree with everything 423 00:16:07,666 --> 00:16:11,300 that she says or does or you don't, she's a survivor, right? 424 00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:13,800 [PALMER] Absolutely, I mean, I covered her first Speakership 425 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,200 out of the depths of the minority, 426 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,733 and I think truly if they had not won the majority back 427 00:16:18,733 --> 00:16:22,566 she was done. She is somebody who we said 428 00:16:22,566 --> 00:16:24,866 this about her and Mitch McConnell a lot, 429 00:16:24,866 --> 00:16:28,733 but I think it holds so true, she picks something, 430 00:16:28,733 --> 00:16:31,100 her goal at the end point, so does Mitch McConnell. 431 00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:33,766 And they steadfastly work towards that goal 432 00:16:33,766 --> 00:16:35,500 and wait to get people towards it. 433 00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:37,100 She said she was gonna become Speaker, 434 00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:39,633 she outworked it, I mean there was a lot of noise, 435 00:16:39,633 --> 00:16:41,300 people wanted a lot of things and she got it. 436 00:16:41,300 --> 00:16:43,766 And I think, even when you look at how the president 437 00:16:43,766 --> 00:16:45,200 reacts to her, in our interview with her, 438 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,866 he has a real sort of reverence about her ability 439 00:16:47,866 --> 00:16:51,833 to get things done and keep Democrats together. 440 00:16:51,833 --> 00:16:53,900 [SMITH] Yeah, I mean in some ways, Jake, the thought was, 441 00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:55,600 the best thing that could happen to the president 442 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,800 is that Nancy Pelosi become Speaker again. 443 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,166 He would at least have a foil. But there's kind of 444 00:17:01,166 --> 00:17:04,000 an inverse to that, which is that she's not afraid of him, 445 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,366 she's not cowed by him, she's not bending. 446 00:17:07,366 --> 00:17:10,333 She's a lot tougher versus the president, 447 00:17:10,333 --> 00:17:13,433 than Paul Ryan ever was or would have been, right? 448 00:17:13,433 --> 00:17:16,266 [SHERMAN] It's a very complicated relationship and dynamic. 449 00:17:16,266 --> 00:17:18,300 The White House, in the lead up to the election, 450 00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:20,533 made the case to everybody in Washington, 451 00:17:20,533 --> 00:17:22,500 that it's okay if Democrats take the House. 452 00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:24,266 Republicans are too complicated. 453 00:17:24,266 --> 00:17:25,966 We can't get anything through -- 454 00:17:25,966 --> 00:17:27,733 [SMITH] Right, well the president said he admired the fact 455 00:17:27,733 --> 00:17:29,266 that at least Democrats hold together, our guys 456 00:17:29,266 --> 00:17:31,666 don't hold together, but they hold together. 457 00:17:31,666 --> 00:17:34,466 [SHERMAN] He said that, and he also said, 458 00:17:34,466 --> 00:17:36,633 "Now I can just say go get me a bill 459 00:17:36,633 --> 00:17:37,633 and I'll see if I'll sign it." 460 00:17:37,633 --> 00:17:39,066 Obviously, over simplification 461 00:17:39,066 --> 00:17:41,900 of the legislative process, and now he has all 462 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:44,333 these investigations, but yes he does have a foil. 463 00:17:44,333 --> 00:17:47,366 But as you said, I mean Pelosi just has no problem 464 00:17:47,366 --> 00:17:49,733 looking him in the eye and saying "No. This is 465 00:17:49,733 --> 00:17:53,366 where I am, and you're not gonna get what you want to get." 466 00:17:53,366 --> 00:17:55,600 And if you're a Republican or a Democrat, 467 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,000 as you said, you have to admire Pelosi because 468 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,466 she's able to get things done. 469 00:18:00,466 --> 00:18:02,700 You might not like what she's able to get done. 470 00:18:02,700 --> 00:18:05,633 But she has an incredible savvy of the legislative process. 471 00:18:05,633 --> 00:18:08,233 [SMITH] At least so far, since she was put back into 472 00:18:08,233 --> 00:18:10,466 the Speaker's office, she has been pretty effective, 473 00:18:10,466 --> 00:18:15,166 in terms of slowing the president's agenda and effectively 474 00:18:15,166 --> 00:18:17,700 everything in this administration to a crawl 475 00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:19,233 if not a halt. [PALMER] Yeah, I mean, I think 476 00:18:19,233 --> 00:18:22,266 we would both believe that she's the most powerful person 477 00:18:22,266 --> 00:18:24,133 in Washington right now, things do not happen 478 00:18:24,133 --> 00:18:26,033 unless she-- [SMITH] But for her. 479 00:18:26,033 --> 00:18:27,833 [PALMER] But for her. [SMITH] Elections have consequences. 480 00:18:27,833 --> 00:18:29,066 [SHERMAN] Big time. [SMITH] The oldest song 481 00:18:29,066 --> 00:18:30,633 in the world, right? [SHERMAN] I think also 482 00:18:30,633 --> 00:18:34,933 there's a dynamic, the dynamic that you spoke of 483 00:18:34,933 --> 00:18:36,766 which is, she's able to keep her troops together, 484 00:18:36,766 --> 00:18:39,266 and nobody else can, and Donald Trump is like, 485 00:18:39,266 --> 00:18:41,333 why don't I have somebody like that, who can keep 486 00:18:41,333 --> 00:18:43,033 their people together? And I also think, 487 00:18:43,033 --> 00:18:45,366 to be honest, she is a powerful woman, 488 00:18:45,366 --> 00:18:47,266 and that is a dynamic in Washington 489 00:18:47,266 --> 00:18:50,600 that a lot of people have been thrown off by, 490 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,333 in her caucus too, right, I mean big newcomers 491 00:18:52,333 --> 00:18:55,800 to her caucus have been thrown off by that at times. 492 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,800 [PALMER] Yeah, she also benefits from having Donald Trump 493 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,133 as a foil. If there's one thing that Democrats 494 00:19:01,133 --> 00:19:03,600 can agree on, is that they don't like-- 495 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,133 [SMITH] America's fun couple. [SHERMAN] I would argue, 496 00:19:05,133 --> 00:19:08,766 that she benefits from-- [SMITH] Benefits from her. 497 00:19:08,766 --> 00:19:12,366 [SHERMAN] Because she has much more knowhow. 498 00:19:12,366 --> 00:19:14,900 [SMITH] On this question of the Democrats being able to 499 00:19:14,900 --> 00:19:16,933 hold their folks together and the Republicans not, 500 00:19:16,933 --> 00:19:19,033 let me now push back gently and say, 501 00:19:19,033 --> 00:19:22,100 where are the Republicans breaking with this president 502 00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:23,800 as evidence of the Republicans 503 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,300 not holding their guys together? 504 00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:28,300 Does he have to literally, as he said during the campaign, 505 00:19:28,300 --> 00:19:30,133 shoot somebody in the middle of 5th Avenue 506 00:19:30,133 --> 00:19:32,900 for a Republican senator to cross him? 507 00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:35,600 I mean, he really has benefited from 508 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,633 a unanimity of support among Republicans 509 00:19:39,633 --> 00:19:42,200 in the Senate, in a way that I don't know 510 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:43,800 that anybody could have imagined. 511 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,200 What does he have to do that is out of sync 512 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,866 with our expectations, or with what's normal 513 00:19:48,866 --> 00:19:51,066 for one of these guys to cross him? 514 00:19:51,066 --> 00:19:52,566 [PALMER] I would say a couple of things. 515 00:19:52,566 --> 00:19:55,033 I think one, there have been some moments, 516 00:19:55,033 --> 00:19:56,866 whether it was the national emergency. 517 00:19:56,866 --> 00:19:58,433 [SMITH] John McCain. [PALMER] John McCain. 518 00:19:58,433 --> 00:20:01,366 You also had started to see on the Federal Reserve, 519 00:20:01,366 --> 00:20:03,433 when he put up some of the nominees that they didn't like. 520 00:20:03,433 --> 00:20:06,400 But I also think, when we travel for this book, 521 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,866 what you really see is, if you're a Republican in Congress 522 00:20:09,866 --> 00:20:13,500 and you go back home, you are not getting the conversation 523 00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:15,566 you just had, it is, why are you not defending 524 00:20:15,566 --> 00:20:18,433 this president more. They love him, he's a rock star. 525 00:20:18,433 --> 00:20:21,800 So I think there's a real friction there between 526 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,400 what people like yourself are saying 527 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,000 and then what they're getting back home. 528 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,233 [SMITH] I mean, but of course if it takes Steve Moore 529 00:20:26,233 --> 00:20:28,133 and Herman Caine for the Republicans to break 530 00:20:28,133 --> 00:20:30,700 with this president, that's an extreme case, is it not? 531 00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:32,766 [SHERMAN] It is, but they broke with him on foreign policy, 532 00:20:32,766 --> 00:20:34,733 on some of the wars in the Middle East. 533 00:20:34,733 --> 00:20:36,766 They've broken with him on-- [SMITH] They haven't sustained 534 00:20:36,766 --> 00:20:38,233 a veto though have they? [SHERMAN] They've not. 535 00:20:38,233 --> 00:20:42,333 And that's a numbers problem, more than an ideological 536 00:20:42,333 --> 00:20:45,433 problem, I would argue, but Anna's point 537 00:20:45,433 --> 00:20:48,400 is the overwhelming thing that we've learned in this book, 538 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:49,800 one of the overwhelming lessons is that 539 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,833 members of Congress go home, and they couldn't 540 00:20:52,833 --> 00:20:54,233 be close enough to this president. 541 00:20:54,233 --> 00:20:55,533 [SMITH] They're voting with their districts. 542 00:20:55,533 --> 00:20:57,400 [SHERMAN] Oh my god, and I know 543 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:58,666 a couple members of Congress, 544 00:20:58,666 --> 00:21:00,533 I mean, there were a lot of retirements 545 00:21:00,533 --> 00:21:02,300 this cycle, in the House of Representatives 546 00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:04,866 among Republicans. One member who retired said, 547 00:21:04,866 --> 00:21:09,200 "My district is very red, I can't live with myself 548 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,133 going home and having to be with him as much 549 00:21:12,133 --> 00:21:14,833 as I have to be with him to win election." This person left. 550 00:21:14,833 --> 00:21:19,800 So I think it's a, I think people tend to not remember 551 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,433 how popular he is in some districts, 552 00:21:22,433 --> 00:21:24,366 in our gerrymandered country. [SMITH] Right. 553 00:21:24,366 --> 00:21:25,600 We just have a couple minutes left. 554 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,733 We did the last 26 months of reporting. 555 00:21:27,733 --> 00:21:30,333 I want you to look at the next 26 months of reporting. 556 00:21:30,333 --> 00:21:32,633 Who is the Democratic nominee for president gonna be? 557 00:21:32,633 --> 00:21:34,266 (audience laughing) 558 00:21:34,266 --> 00:21:36,466 [SHERMAN] Anna Palmer. [PALMER] Yeah, right. 559 00:21:36,466 --> 00:21:39,566 [SMITH] Palmer, Sherman, yay. [PALMER] Take a ticket in for fall. 560 00:21:39,566 --> 00:21:42,333 No, I mean, I think, maybe I'll speak for both of us, 561 00:21:42,333 --> 00:21:43,833 but I'll definitely speak for myself. 562 00:21:43,833 --> 00:21:45,633 After the 2016 election-- [SMITH] Don't predict. 563 00:21:45,633 --> 00:21:46,766 [PALMER] Reporters should get 564 00:21:46,766 --> 00:21:48,066 out of the prediction business. 565 00:21:48,066 --> 00:21:49,766 [SMITH] Yeah, but do you have a sense, 566 00:21:49,766 --> 00:21:52,466 let me rephrase. After the last election, 567 00:21:52,466 --> 00:21:54,766 are the Democrats stupid enough to put two white men 568 00:21:54,766 --> 00:21:57,866 on the ticket? [SHERMAN] I remember, by the way, 569 00:21:57,866 --> 00:22:00,233 some of our editors at Politico saying in 2012 570 00:22:00,233 --> 00:22:01,700 there would never be two white people on the ticket. 571 00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:04,900 I would have to imagine that there's always a chance 572 00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:07,200 but it doesn't seem to be the most appealing option-- 573 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,933 [SMITH] How about, let me, two white men? 574 00:22:09,933 --> 00:22:12,433 Will there be a woman on the ticket this next election? 575 00:22:12,433 --> 00:22:14,333 [PALMER] I would think so. [SMITH] And is that because they 576 00:22:14,333 --> 00:22:16,766 ought to or because they know that they have no choice 577 00:22:16,766 --> 00:22:18,266 but to. [PALMER] It's partially 578 00:22:18,266 --> 00:22:20,833 a numbers game, you also look at who are the people 579 00:22:20,833 --> 00:22:23,266 that are running for president, and there's a number 580 00:22:23,266 --> 00:22:25,966 of women who are running and are-- 581 00:22:25,966 --> 00:22:27,400 [SMITH] More than qualified to serve 582 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,033 as Vice President or President. 583 00:22:29,033 --> 00:22:32,233 [SHERMAN] Here's my big question, the president won in part 584 00:22:32,233 --> 00:22:33,833 because voters in my estimation, 585 00:22:33,833 --> 00:22:35,866 believed that he was uniquely qualified 586 00:22:35,866 --> 00:22:39,266 to unlock a city that was mired in gridlock for, 587 00:22:39,266 --> 00:22:41,666 choose however many number of years you wanna say. 588 00:22:41,666 --> 00:22:43,500 Do those voters believe that again? 589 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:45,700 [SMITH] Has he done it, you think? 590 00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:47,466 [SHERMAN] I think in some ways he has, 591 00:22:47,466 --> 00:22:50,300 in many ways he has not. Like every presidency 592 00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:52,700 it's a mixed bag, and this bag is more mixed than others. 593 00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:55,066 [SMITH] But you know, Anna, what I see is, 594 00:22:55,066 --> 00:22:59,666 there's still gridlock, the swamp is full, 595 00:22:59,666 --> 00:23:04,000 but also, the country added 236,000 jobs 596 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,800 in the month of April, and the unemployment rate 597 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,533 right now is 3.6%. [SHERMAN] 46-year low. 598 00:23:08,533 --> 00:23:10,366 [SMITH] If he can just keep his mouth shut, 599 00:23:10,366 --> 00:23:13,200 and run on the economy, the next election 600 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,800 might be very different. [PALMER] He was tweeting today 601 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,433 "Jobs, jobs, jobs." I mean, I think you see him 602 00:23:17,433 --> 00:23:19,100 return to that, but he also is very savvy-- 603 00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:20,966 [SMITH] Yeah, but later it will be "Lou Dobbs, Lou Dobbs, 604 00:23:20,966 --> 00:23:22,633 Lou Dobbs." I mean, that's it, right? 605 00:23:22,633 --> 00:23:24,333 [PALMER] I think we underestimate him. 606 00:23:24,333 --> 00:23:26,333 I think people think he's just sitting there and going off 607 00:23:26,333 --> 00:23:28,133 and not really having a strategy. 608 00:23:28,133 --> 00:23:30,833 I actually think he does believe in what he's doing 609 00:23:30,833 --> 00:23:32,533 whether it's going against Mueller, whether it's 610 00:23:32,533 --> 00:23:34,966 what he's tweeting about. He thinks he's smarter 611 00:23:34,966 --> 00:23:36,966 than all of us, at the @Twitter, and at keeping 612 00:23:36,966 --> 00:23:39,333 his base together. [SMITH] Hard to argue with him 613 00:23:39,333 --> 00:23:42,466 at this point, honestly, right? [SHERMAN] It is, and if you 614 00:23:42,466 --> 00:23:45,033 talk to Kevin McCarthy, the number one House Republican, 615 00:23:45,033 --> 00:23:48,566 he says, "It's like Bill Clinton in 1998. Good economy, 616 00:23:48,566 --> 00:23:51,666 under siege by the opposition party. Some believe 617 00:23:51,666 --> 00:23:54,900 that they will overreach. He believes that's a recipe 618 00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:58,333 for reelection." Those two things which Bill Clinton had. 619 00:23:58,333 --> 00:23:59,966 [SMITH] Will there be impeachment proceedings? 620 00:23:59,966 --> 00:24:02,233 [SHERMAN] Doesn't matter to me, because it shouldn't matter 621 00:24:02,233 --> 00:24:04,266 to Democrats either, because what Democrats 622 00:24:04,266 --> 00:24:07,766 are doing now is just as damaging to the president 623 00:24:07,766 --> 00:24:11,433 in that, constant investigations, no matter 624 00:24:11,433 --> 00:24:14,433 if you call it impeachment or not, has the same 625 00:24:14,433 --> 00:24:18,733 political risk for Donald Trump 626 00:24:18,733 --> 00:24:22,133 and dominates the news cycle. [PALMER] I think Democrats 627 00:24:22,133 --> 00:24:24,600 are gonna turn their fire on Attorney General Bill Barr. 628 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,366 I think that-- [SHERMAN] For the moment. 629 00:24:26,366 --> 00:24:27,966 [PALMER] For the moment, but you can see contempt, 630 00:24:27,966 --> 00:24:29,966 you can see impeachment, I think when they are able to 631 00:24:29,966 --> 00:24:33,366 train, Democratic leadership is much more comfortable 632 00:24:33,366 --> 00:24:35,266 training their attention on that then the president. 633 00:24:35,266 --> 00:24:36,966 [SMITH] But you know, a year ago there was a question 634 00:24:36,966 --> 00:24:38,500 in the middle of the Mueller investigation, 635 00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:41,266 would this president even be on the ticket in 2020? 636 00:24:41,266 --> 00:24:43,333 That seems assured at this point. 637 00:24:43,333 --> 00:24:44,866 [SHERMAN] Yes. 638 00:24:44,866 --> 00:24:46,333 [PALMER] I think that was people's wishful thinking. 639 00:24:46,333 --> 00:24:47,733 [SMITH] But nonetheless, you know, if you don't have 640 00:24:47,733 --> 00:24:49,000 dreams, you have nightmares, for a lot of people, 641 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,466 the thought of the president somehow 642 00:24:50,466 --> 00:24:54,200 being ensnared by Mueller was a present thought 643 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,366 or possibility and now, he really does seem 644 00:24:57,366 --> 00:24:59,100 to have gotten on the other side of that, hasn't he? 645 00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:00,466 [PALMER] I think so. [SHERMAN] And he's got 646 00:25:00,466 --> 00:25:01,766 the headline he wants, which is, 647 00:25:01,766 --> 00:25:03,933 no collusion from Bob Mueller. 648 00:25:03,933 --> 00:25:05,566 [SMITH] Total exoneration, whatever he wants, 649 00:25:05,566 --> 00:25:08,166 whether it turns out to be legitimately the case or not, 650 00:25:08,166 --> 00:25:11,600 he's kind of survived that-- [PALMER] And that ran on 651 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,200 newspapers across the country. [SHERMAN] I think one of the 652 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,333 geniuses of Donald Trump that history will notice 653 00:25:18,333 --> 00:25:21,266 is that he just talks about whatever he wants 654 00:25:21,266 --> 00:25:24,133 the story to be, no matter what the story is 655 00:25:24,133 --> 00:25:26,466 to other people, or to news outlets, 656 00:25:26,466 --> 00:25:28,300 he'll go out into a rally and say whatever 657 00:25:28,300 --> 00:25:32,500 he wants and just plow ahead, and it sets the narrative 658 00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:34,200 in a more firm way than I think 659 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,900 almost any politician we've ever seen. 660 00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:37,133 [SMITH] Well yeah, it's an 661 00:25:37,133 --> 00:25:38,633 extraordinary moment to be doing this. 662 00:25:38,633 --> 00:25:40,833 And what an extraordinary moment to read this book 663 00:25:40,833 --> 00:25:43,833 and to get the back story, and to read you all every day. 664 00:25:43,833 --> 00:25:45,500 You guys are telling us every single day 665 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:46,766 what we need to know. [SHERMAN] Thanks, Evan. 666 00:25:46,766 --> 00:25:48,400 [SMITH] Thank you Jake, Anna, good luck. 667 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,233 Give them a big hand. Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer. 668 00:25:51,233 --> 00:25:53,666 (applause) 669 00:25:53,666 --> 00:25:56,333 [SMITH] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 670 00:25:56,333 --> 00:26:00,100 Visit our website at klru.org/overheard 671 00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:03,100 to find invitations to interviews, Q&As 672 00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:05,533 with our audience and guests and an archive 673 00:26:05,533 --> 00:26:07,200 of past episodes. 674 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:08,733 [SHERMAN] Republicans held 675 00:26:08,733 --> 00:26:10,233 Eric Holder in contempt in 2012. [PALMER] Over Fast and Furious. 676 00:26:10,233 --> 00:26:13,466 [SHERMAN] Over the Fast and furious gun running probe. 677 00:26:13,466 --> 00:26:17,333 And Eric Holder didn't leave office, 678 00:26:17,333 --> 00:26:21,666 and neither will Bill Barr. And a court eventually 679 00:26:21,666 --> 00:26:24,033 told the Department of Justice that they needed 680 00:26:24,033 --> 00:26:27,800 to fork over documents to Congress, and Congress won. 681 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,266 [NARRATOR] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 682 00:26:30,266 --> 00:26:33,233 is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 683 00:26:33,233 --> 00:26:36,033 a Texas government affairs consultancy, 684 00:26:36,033 --> 00:26:38,900 the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation, 685 00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:43,400 Claire and Carl Stuart, and by Entergy. 686 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,900 (bells chiming)