WEBVTT 00:01.433 --> 00:02.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [FEMALE NARRATOR] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 00:02.900 --> 00:06.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is provided in part by Hillco Partners, a Texas 00:06.533 --> 00:08.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% government affairs consultancy. 00:08.733 --> 00:11.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation. 00:11.400 --> 00:15.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart, and by Entergy. 00:15.933 --> 00:17.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith, 00:17.300 --> 00:19.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they're senior writers for Politico 00:19.300 --> 00:22.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the coauthors of its must read Playbook newsletters. 00:22.866 --> 00:25.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Their first book, instantly a best seller, 00:25.733 --> 00:28.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is "The Hill to Die On: The Battle for Congress 00:28.500 --> 00:30.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the Future of Trump's America". 00:30.766 --> 00:33.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They're Anna Palmer and Jake Sherman. 00:33.033 --> 00:33.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is Overheard. 00:35.466 --> 00:38.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn 00:38.533 --> 00:40.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or is this about the experience 00:40.033 --> 00:41.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of not having been taught properly? 00:41.600 --> 00:44.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% How have you avoided what has befallen other nations 00:44.233 --> 00:46.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in Africa? You could say that he made his own bed 00:46.800 --> 00:49.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but you caused him to sleep in it. 00:49.066 --> 00:51.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You saw a problem and over time took it on 00:51.800 --> 00:53.066 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Let's start with 00:53.066 --> 00:55.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the sizzle before we get to the steak. 00:55.166 --> 00:56.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Are you gonna run for President? 00:56.466 --> 00:59.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think I just got an F from you, actually. 00:59.300 --> 01:00.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is Overheard. 01:00.266 --> 01:05.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience cheering) 01:07.333 --> 01:08.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Jake, Anna, welcome. 01:08.866 --> 01:10.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [ANNA PALMER and JAKE SHERMAN] Thanks for having us. 01:10.400 --> 01:11.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Congratulations, I'm so happy to see you succeed. 01:11.833 --> 01:13.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's good when good people succeed. 01:13.900 --> 01:15.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SHERMAN] We'll take that as a compliment. 01:15.366 --> 01:17.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] I don't like it so much when bad people succeed, 01:17.333 --> 01:22.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which happens. This book was 26 months of reporting, right? 01:22.033 --> 01:24.933 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% Did you know, did you know 26 months ago, 01:24.933 --> 01:26.900 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% did you know when you decided to write this book 01:26.900 --> 01:30.433 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% that Congress was going to be so off the rails? 01:30.433 --> 01:31.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [PALMER] I don't think we knew 01:31.633 --> 01:33.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% how crazy it was going to get. 01:33.233 --> 01:34.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think we knew it was going to be interesting. 01:34.866 --> 01:37.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] You're in the position of praying for crazy, right? 01:37.033 --> 01:38.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We've got a book, we hope it's crazy. 01:38.733 --> 01:40.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Bad for the country, good for us. 01:40.233 --> 01:42.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] I mean, I think what really is true though, 01:42.133 --> 01:44.266 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% is you had Donald Trump, change candidate, 01:44.266 --> 01:46.366 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% change election saying he's gonna up end 01:46.366 --> 01:49.400 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% the way Washington works. You had Republicans 01:49.400 --> 01:51.233 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% controlling everything for the first time 01:51.233 --> 01:52.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in a long time, salivating, trying to think 01:52.866 --> 01:54.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about what deals they could get done. 01:54.800 --> 01:56.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And you knew there was gonna be a lot of drama, 01:56.300 --> 01:58.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because Republicans are probably gonna lose the House. 01:58.666 --> 02:00.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Donald Trump may have told 10,000 lies 02:00.800 --> 02:03.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but "I'm gonna up end everything" was true. 02:03.333 --> 02:05.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] Yeah it was, but remember there was another 02:05.366 --> 02:06.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% candidate who said he was gonna do that. 02:06.833 --> 02:09.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it was Barack Obama, and Washington is a city 02:09.766 --> 02:12.666 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% much like Austin or any kind of power center 02:12.666 --> 02:15.366 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% that doesn't change so easily. [SMITH] Resistant to change. 02:15.366 --> 02:17.300 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% [SHERMAN] Right, and what we didn't know though, 02:17.300 --> 02:20.433 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% was that in that period, from Election Day 2016 02:20.433 --> 02:23.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% 'til 2018, crazy stuff would happen. 02:23.233 --> 02:25.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We didn't know that because of Donald Trump. 02:25.266 --> 02:27.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We knew that because we had covered Congress 02:27.366 --> 02:28.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for a decade and we had written about 02:28.866 --> 02:30.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the craziest things we'd ever imagined. 02:30.433 --> 02:31.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Except, it exceeded expectations. 02:31.966 --> 02:33.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] Yes, right. [PALMER] I mean, there were 02:33.400 --> 02:35.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% things that happened, whether it was Brett Kavanaugh, 02:35.633 --> 02:37.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I don't think we would have ever said and thought, 02:37.433 --> 02:39.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% oh, we're gonna have a Supreme Court nomination chapter. 02:39.833 --> 02:42.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Or all the sexual harassment stuff that happened 02:42.533 --> 02:44.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and really permeated Capitol Hill 02:44.633 --> 02:47.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for several of the months, and then the shut down 02:47.133 --> 02:48.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the immigration fight I think, 02:48.566 --> 02:51.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% was crazier than anybody, way more dramatic 02:51.100 --> 02:52.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% than anybody would have thought. 02:52.666 --> 02:53.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] But we did know we had a Speaker of the House, 02:53.933 --> 02:56.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Paul Ryan, who not hated the president, 02:56.066 --> 02:58.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but during the campaign, certainly didn't 02:58.100 --> 03:00.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% see eye to eye with the president or with the candidate 03:00.833 --> 03:03.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at the time. And we had Nancy Pelosi who was 03:03.266 --> 03:05.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% trying to get power again. And we had Mitch McConnell 03:05.533 --> 03:08.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who would be able to try to use the president 03:08.933 --> 03:10.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to try to achieve his ends, so we had a mix 03:10.666 --> 03:13.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of power, people who were in positions of power 03:13.166 --> 03:14.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who were gonna benefit from Donald Trump. 03:14.833 --> 03:16.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Well, the key element to any good story 03:16.533 --> 03:18.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is great characters, and you had the absolute 03:18.733 --> 03:20.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% best characters, probably more than you could 03:20.100 --> 03:23.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% have ever hoped for. [PALMER] We had some really good 03:23.233 --> 03:25.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% advice early on which was saying, you really need 03:25.333 --> 03:27.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to pick the characters and follow them. 03:27.566 --> 03:29.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so you had the kind of the characters 03:29.533 --> 03:31.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that you thought for sure right, Donald Trump, 03:31.600 --> 03:34.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Nancy Pelosi, mentioned Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell. 03:34.000 --> 03:36.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But then you had the Freedom Caucus, which is just 03:36.033 --> 03:37.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ripe for you know -- [SMITH] If you're a political 03:37.966 --> 03:41.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% journalist, the Freedom Caucus is Christmas every day. 03:41.200 --> 03:42.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Isn't it? [SHERMAN] Yes, but you know 03:42.700 --> 03:44.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% they're actually, they're close to the president, 03:44.366 --> 03:46.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but they couldn't be more media savvy. 03:46.200 --> 03:48.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, I spent so much time with Jim Jordan 03:48.633 --> 03:50.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Mark Meadows, I traveled with them. 03:50.566 --> 03:53.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I went to visit Jim Jordan at his home in Ohio. 03:53.800 --> 03:57.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They are really people who respect what the press does. 03:57.233 --> 03:58.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it might sound ironic, because they are 03:58.966 --> 04:01.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% close allies of the president, but they give a lot 04:01.933 --> 04:04.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of access to reporters and really try to explain 04:04.900 --> 04:06.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what they're up to. [SMITH] Does writing a book 04:06.633 --> 04:09.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% like this today, when everything is being told to us 04:09.166 --> 04:12.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Anna, in real time, we are watching the events play out 04:12.900 --> 04:16.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at a kind of microsecond level, as never before. 04:16.266 --> 04:17.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% In the old days you know, you'd write a book 04:17.566 --> 04:19.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that was about the political campaign. 04:19.266 --> 04:21.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The sort of standard deal where we're not 04:21.633 --> 04:22.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% gonna report any of the stuff until 04:22.900 --> 04:25.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% after the campaign and it would hold. 04:25.400 --> 04:27.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You say in the book that you did interviews 04:27.533 --> 04:29.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% over the course of all this, and you had certain 04:29.200 --> 04:31.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% conditions that people you talked to 04:31.100 --> 04:33.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% agreed to, who were gonna not report some of the stuff 04:33.233 --> 04:36.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% until afterwards but, how does this stuff hold 04:36.733 --> 04:39.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in this era for as long as it did? 04:39.100 --> 04:41.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] I think it was kind of terrifying as first time 04:41.333 --> 04:44.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% reporters that were doing this, but I do think 04:44.133 --> 04:46.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% upon reflection, we benefited from the fact 04:46.933 --> 04:50.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that the media is always moving on to the next story 04:50.166 --> 04:52.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and that Donald Trump, the president, takes up 04:52.733 --> 04:54.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% so much oxygen in Washington. And this is really 04:54.700 --> 04:57.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a book about Congress in the era of Trump. 04:57.166 --> 04:59.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so, people really gave us a lot of access 04:59.966 --> 05:01.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because we were reconstructing things, 05:01.533 --> 05:03.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and it wasn't gonna impact the election 05:03.333 --> 05:05.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or the next vote the next day. They knew that they had 05:05.200 --> 05:09.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% months, even over a year before it was gonna come out. 05:09.233 --> 05:10.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] The idea that we're being distracted, Jake, 05:10.933 --> 05:13.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as much as we are by events, I mean things happen today 05:13.333 --> 05:15.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and in the old days they would have had hang time 05:15.533 --> 05:18.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% on the front page of a paper or on the evening news. 05:18.266 --> 05:21.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% One day, two days, three days, literally five minutes pass, 05:21.033 --> 05:23.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% something else pushes a major story off 05:23.300 --> 05:25.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of the front page. You benefit from that sort of, don't you? 05:25.666 --> 05:28.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SHERMAN] Huge, I mean I watch good reporters, 05:28.566 --> 05:31.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% great reporters, reporters that should be sinking their 05:31.100 --> 05:33.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% teeth into meaty issues and projects like this 05:33.633 --> 05:37.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% on Capitol Hill be chasing members of Congress 05:37.000 --> 05:38.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% around saying "What do you think of the president's 05:38.600 --> 05:40.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% most recent tweet? What do you think of this?" 05:40.166 --> 05:43.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we were able to, to an extent, step back and say, 05:43.300 --> 05:45.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "Okay, well, while this is happening, I'm gonna go meet 05:45.666 --> 05:49.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with Mark Meadows about what his conversations were 05:49.033 --> 05:50.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with his friends, with his colleagues, 05:50.933 --> 05:52.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what he thinks about the president. 05:52.333 --> 05:54.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We weren't asking them to reflect backward, 05:54.633 --> 05:56.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we were asking them to say, in the moment, 05:56.566 --> 05:59.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what are you thinking right now? And just by showing 05:59.800 --> 06:03.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% an interest in their work, they had a buy-in 06:03.433 --> 06:05.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in it too, I think, was part of the -- 06:05.933 --> 06:07.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] You know I totally agree, and I think the other 06:07.566 --> 06:08.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% thing that we really benefited from 06:08.533 --> 06:10.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is because members of Congress, 06:10.033 --> 06:11.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean they feel like they have a great story to tell. 06:11.700 --> 06:15.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They are working for longer, decades in Washington 06:15.733 --> 06:18.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% where a president comes in four years, eight years. 06:18.400 --> 06:21.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And most of the time, there's so much more attention 06:21.333 --> 06:22.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the press plays on the White House, 06:22.966 --> 06:24.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we were saying no, we want your story. 06:24.800 --> 06:27.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Right, well the president is, as a general rule, 06:27.866 --> 06:30.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% temporary and we, including Congress, 06:30.300 --> 06:31.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the institution, are permanent. 06:31.766 --> 06:34.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But this president is not just any president. 06:34.733 --> 06:37.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And in fact, you got an opportunity to talk to him 06:37.100 --> 06:40.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for this book, and basically, as you say in the book, 06:40.233 --> 06:42.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he wants everything to be about him. 06:42.233 --> 06:44.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The interview you did with him about Congress 06:44.733 --> 06:46.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and about this here, he basically turned everything 06:46.466 --> 06:49.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% back on him. [SHERMAN] He did. I think 06:49.400 --> 06:51.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the thing about him that we found most interesting, 06:51.800 --> 06:55.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a few things, he's much more personally engaging -- 06:55.400 --> 06:57.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Yeah yeah, talk about that, because most of us 06:57.000 --> 06:59.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% out in the world think we have a sense of what 06:59.066 --> 07:01.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he's like up close, but you actually have been up close. 07:01.200 --> 07:02.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So what's -- [SHERMAN] And we're not 07:02.700 --> 07:04.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% experts on him, but I can tell you our reflections 07:04.033 --> 07:05.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% from our experience. [SMITH] You've been in the room 07:05.300 --> 07:07.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% though, yeah. [SHERMAN] He's very interested 07:07.933 --> 07:11.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in people. He's very interested in talking shop. 07:11.833 --> 07:13.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And you wouldn't expect that because this is a guy 07:13.666 --> 07:16.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who wasn't involved in politics for a long time. 07:16.033 --> 07:18.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he expects backbreaking loyalty. 07:18.766 --> 07:21.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we write this in the book, but doesn't return any. 07:21.866 --> 07:26.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He expects people to jump off proverbial bridges 07:26.133 --> 07:29.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for him. Yet when it comes time to return that 07:29.466 --> 07:31.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he's not always there for that person. 07:31.566 --> 07:33.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And even those members of Congress who expect 07:33.833 --> 07:35.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that loyalty from him don't get it. 07:35.266 --> 07:36.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [PALMER] Yeah, I think we also, 07:36.866 --> 07:38.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think if given the opportunity 07:38.933 --> 07:41.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he would spend multiple hours a day 07:41.466 --> 07:43.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% talking to reporters, he likes talking to reporters. 07:43.533 --> 07:45.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He's very media savvy, he's done it for a really long time. 07:45.533 --> 07:47.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Even out of the news organizations that he 07:47.600 --> 07:50.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% takes out after on Twitter, the failing New York Times. 07:50.733 --> 07:52.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But then he calls Maggie Haberman, or the Bezos 07:52.766 --> 07:55.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Amazon Washington Post, and he calls Bob Costa. 07:55.800 --> 07:59.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] I mean I would venture, I don't have his chronicle, 07:59.933 --> 08:01.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but I would venture that this president has given 08:01.466 --> 08:03.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% more interviews in the two and a half years 08:03.500 --> 08:05.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that he's been president, to the New York Times, 08:05.366 --> 08:07.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than Barack Obama did for all eight. 08:07.300 --> 08:09.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] And probably broadly more accessible to the press 08:09.400 --> 08:10.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than Obama was in the sense that he may 08:10.933 --> 08:12.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% not be doing formal press conferences, but under 08:12.733 --> 08:15.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the helicopter blades, or this gaggle, right? 08:15.400 --> 08:17.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] Absolutely, I mean he is unlike anything 08:17.800 --> 08:20.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we've ever seen in terms of one, you have that access, 08:20.633 --> 08:23.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but then you also have a real time with his Twitter feed 08:23.133 --> 08:25.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% how he is feeling in the moment, which is really 08:25.600 --> 08:27.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% something that reporters never get 08:27.266 --> 08:28.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% at a principle of that level. 08:28.533 --> 08:30.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Do you consider his Twitter feed, Jake, 08:30.566 --> 08:33.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to be legitimate as a source of news? 08:33.666 --> 08:36.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% [SHERMAN] Yeah I find the argument befuddling that it's not. 08:36.333 --> 08:39.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't think it's an unbiased and unvarnished 08:39.633 --> 08:41.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% source of truth. [SMITH] But he's the president, 08:41.866 --> 08:44.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he said it, it's news, period. 08:44.400 --> 08:46.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SHERMAN] Yes, 100 percent. 08:46.866 --> 08:49.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Just to follow up on what Anna said, 08:49.366 --> 08:52.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think that the interesting thing about the president 08:52.033 --> 08:55.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is that he is always in search of elite approval. 08:55.666 --> 08:57.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Approval from the New York Times. 08:57.166 --> 08:59.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Approval from big networks. [SMITH] He's still a kid 08:59.833 --> 09:01.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who grew up in Queens and he had sort of, 09:01.933 --> 09:04.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% bridge, bus, and tunnel envy of the big city. 09:04.133 --> 09:05.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SHERMAN] Exactly. And he says that, he says, 09:05.733 --> 09:07.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% "Can't I get a good story out of 09:07.633 --> 09:09.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% my hometown paper once in a while? 09:09.433 --> 09:12.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm a kid from Queens." I mean, he said this. 09:12.033 --> 09:13.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You can go back and look at the transcripts 09:13.366 --> 09:14.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of the interviews of the New York Times. 09:14.866 --> 09:18.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Which people, when I tell some of my conservative 09:18.466 --> 09:21.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% friends this, they just are like, what is he doing? 09:21.000 --> 09:23.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Why does he care so much about what the Times says? 09:23.600 --> 09:25.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They wanna take him down. [SMITH] Because he's who 09:25.200 --> 09:27.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he always was. He was the kid from Queens. 09:27.166 --> 09:28.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SHERMAN] Exactly, exactly. 09:28.600 --> 09:31.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Is he nice? [PALMER] Oh, I think he is 09:31.700 --> 09:33.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% very personable, you can tell he was in the 09:33.633 --> 09:36.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% hospitality industry for his entire career. 09:36.466 --> 09:39.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That comes across, I think he seems genuinely interested, 09:39.666 --> 09:40.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% whether he is or not. 09:40.900 --> 09:42.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, he'd talk about golf courses with Jake 09:42.766 --> 09:44.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or different things like that, yeah. 09:44.266 --> 09:46.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think he tries to find a commonality and a connection 09:46.066 --> 09:47.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with people. [SHERMAN] I'll take you behind 09:47.466 --> 09:49.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the curtain for one second, it was interesting. 09:49.433 --> 09:52.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So we had a few questions we were able to ask 09:52.566 --> 09:57.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for Politico, for daily consumption, but 99 percent 09:57.466 --> 09:59.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of our interview, or 90 percent is for the book. 09:59.533 --> 10:02.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we, at a certain point, one of his handlers said, 10:02.866 --> 10:05.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "All right Mr. President, that was all for the book. 10:05.133 --> 10:08.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Now are the questions that could be used at any time." 10:08.633 --> 10:10.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Kind of like warning him what the story was. 10:10.700 --> 10:12.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he said, "I don't care, they could use 10:12.233 --> 10:14.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% all of this right now." It's funny how he's 10:14.966 --> 10:18.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% just, he loves the back and forth with reporters. 10:18.533 --> 10:20.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And especially because we weren't there 10:20.333 --> 10:22.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to get into a fight with him. We were there 10:22.866 --> 10:25.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to ask him about his view of other people 10:25.066 --> 10:26.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and people that he interacts with. 10:26.566 --> 10:28.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] So on the subject of his view of other people, 10:28.066 --> 10:30.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I wonder if he's not his own worst enemy sometimes, 10:30.366 --> 10:33.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in terms of how he takes after people he needs. 10:33.433 --> 10:34.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So Paul Ryan is a great example. 10:34.966 --> 10:37.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Paul Ryan is as much an important character 10:37.200 --> 10:40.900 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% in this book as any character in this book is. 10:40.900 --> 10:42.966 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% And the president at various points was pretty 10:42.966 --> 10:46.766 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% unkind publicly and privately to Paul Ryan. 10:46.766 --> 10:48.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Who after all was Speaker of the House, 10:48.666 --> 10:52.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the Republican leader in one of two chambers of Congress. 10:52.266 --> 10:55.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He needed Paul Ryan to be on the same page 10:55.266 --> 10:57.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with him to a large degree, to get anything accomplished. 10:57.900 --> 10:59.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And yet he felt perfectly comfortable taking 10:59.333 --> 11:01.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% out after him. [PALMER] I just think 11:01.466 --> 11:03.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you have to realize that as Jake mentioned earlier, 11:03.933 --> 11:06.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the beginning, Paul Ryan was not with him 11:06.666 --> 11:08.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% on the campaign trail. [SMITH] He was still Speaker though. 11:08.433 --> 11:10.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] Yes, he was still Speaker, but there was not even 11:10.100 --> 11:12.466 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% a single photo of the two of them during the entire 11:12.466 --> 11:15.000 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% campaign season. Paul Ryan was the Chairman of the 11:15.000 --> 11:18.066 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% Republican Convention, and this is your nominee. 11:18.066 --> 11:19.866 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% There's not a single photo of the two of them together. 11:19.866 --> 11:22.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I also think that you have to realize 11:22.366 --> 11:25.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that Paul Ryan let the president down early, 11:25.033 --> 11:27.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% very early, he came up to Trump Tower 11:27.633 --> 11:29.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% right after the election saying "This is what I 11:29.433 --> 11:31.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% wanna do, we're gonna do healthcare, that's gonna make 11:31.000 --> 11:33.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% room for tax reform and then we're gonna do this, 11:33.700 --> 11:35.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we're gonna get all this passed." And he had this whole 11:35.733 --> 11:37.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% kind of process laid out, healthcare -- 11:37.766 --> 11:41.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Didn't happen. [PALMER] Inflamed, and so all 11:41.066 --> 11:42.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of a sudden, he's getting killed in the first 11:42.866 --> 11:44.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% couple months of his presidency, and it's because 11:44.400 --> 11:46.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this guy promised him, the Speaker, 11:46.300 --> 11:47.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that he was gonna be the guy 11:47.466 --> 11:48.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that was gonna get the job done. 11:48.733 --> 11:50.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SHERMAN] I have a lot of thoughts about this. 11:50.000 --> 11:52.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so does Anna, as you can tell. 11:52.000 --> 11:54.200 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% Donald Trump ran a family company 11:54.200 --> 11:56.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% where he didn't need anyone's approval to do anything. 11:56.366 --> 11:58.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMTIH] People think that the Trump organization was big. 11:58.500 --> 11:59.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was actually pretty small, right? 11:59.766 --> 12:01.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SHERMAN] And he was the sole deciding factor, 12:01.666 --> 12:03.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% from what we know. [SMITH] Right, everything we think. 12:03.733 --> 12:05.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] Couldn't speak to his corporate structure. 12:05.600 --> 12:09.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] I think it's all Eric. We're gonna discover 12:09.100 --> 12:12.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in the last scene of the movie, it was Eric all along. 12:12.000 --> 12:14.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] Right, and Donald's a robot or something. 12:14.366 --> 12:18.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So I think when he came to Washington 12:18.500 --> 12:21.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and had to deal with Congressional committees 12:21.533 --> 12:23.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the Speaker of the House. [PALMER] Process. 12:23.766 --> 12:25.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] In Washington -- [SMITH] He thought he was 12:25.600 --> 12:27.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% running the America Organization, didn't he? 12:27.433 --> 12:29.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] Exactly, and there's this amazing scene 12:29.266 --> 12:31.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we have in our book where Jared Kushner is in a room 12:31.733 --> 12:34.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with all of, a bunch of Republican leadership aides 12:34.533 --> 12:37.866 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% and he says, they're talking about the committee process. 12:37.866 --> 12:40.666 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% The process by which Congress has been operating 12:40.666 --> 12:43.766 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% for you know, 150, 200 years, and Jared says, 12:43.766 --> 12:46.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that sounds inefficient, we'll get to that later. 12:46.200 --> 12:49.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% As if he felt like, this was something where he could 12:49.266 --> 12:51.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% change the process -- [SMITH] Wave a wand 12:51.966 --> 12:53.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and everything fixes. [SHERMAN] And it, but by the way, 12:53.933 --> 12:55.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% this isn't so far removed from Barack Obama, 12:55.966 --> 12:59.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who also thought, who had similar kind of, 12:59.233 --> 13:01.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who had been in Washington but his administration 13:01.500 --> 13:03.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% didn't like the slow pace either. 13:03.100 --> 13:04.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Right. The upside of having an outsider 13:04.600 --> 13:06.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as president is that the person is not bound 13:06.666 --> 13:08.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by what's always been. The downside of having 13:08.733 --> 13:10.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% an outsider as president, is that the person 13:10.166 --> 13:12.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is not bound by what's always been, right? 13:12.066 --> 13:13.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, there's an upside to a downside, 13:13.600 --> 13:15.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% downside to the upside. [PALMER] Yeah, I mean, 13:15.366 --> 13:17.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think we've seen that to the fits and starts 13:17.200 --> 13:18.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of his first two and a half years, right? 13:18.733 --> 13:21.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% In some ways the audacity of tax reform 13:21.500 --> 13:23.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and thinking that they could get it done 13:23.000 --> 13:24.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as fast as they could get it done 13:24.600 --> 13:26.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% would never have happened for most politicians 13:26.966 --> 13:28.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who would say, "No, that's gonna take, 13:28.400 --> 13:30.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, at least two years, four years, you know. 13:30.833 --> 13:32.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're gonna have to have all the committees." 13:32.533 --> 13:34.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This president pushed that along in a way 13:34.833 --> 13:36.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and believed that it could happen. 13:36.333 --> 13:38.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Where most people who were steeped in politics 13:38.266 --> 13:39.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% would say, "Oh that's, we just can't do that. 13:39.866 --> 13:41.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Do you think that in the end, Jake, Anna, 13:41.666 --> 13:44.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whatever happens next, whether it's after 2020 13:44.300 --> 13:46.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or after 2024 that we go back to something 13:46.433 --> 13:49.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that looks more normal? [SHERMAN] I don't know it's tough 13:49.933 --> 13:51.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to say. We keep saying to people that we 13:51.333 --> 13:53.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% don't know how long this tale is. 13:53.400 --> 13:55.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we did an event with Maggie Haberman 13:55.600 --> 13:57.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as you mentioned in New York, where we got 13:57.100 --> 13:59.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a similar question, and it was very, 13:59.566 --> 14:01.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we kind of struggled with that answer. 14:01.300 --> 14:02.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We don't know. I don't think everything will 14:02.800 --> 14:05.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% go back to being normal, or won't go back 14:05.266 --> 14:06.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to being as it was before. It's impossible 14:06.933 --> 14:08.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to say what's normal, and it's impossible 14:08.600 --> 14:11.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to say how the next president will use social media. 14:11.733 --> 14:13.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Well, but you know what I mean. 14:13.000 --> 14:14.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So if Mitt Romney had been elected in 2012, 14:14.633 --> 14:18.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or Jeb Bush, low energy Jeb, had been elected in 2016, 14:18.366 --> 14:23.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we would have seen something that looked more normal. 14:23.266 --> 14:25.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You had disagreements within normal parameters, 14:25.666 --> 14:28.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% right, as opposed to this complete abrogation 14:28.266 --> 14:31.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of every bit of normal behavior in approach 14:31.333 --> 14:33.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to governing, right? [PALMER] I don't know though. 14:33.066 --> 14:34.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I push back a little bit on that 14:34.733 --> 14:36.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because when you look at some of these new members 14:36.866 --> 14:39.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that are coming, the freshmen that have been elected, 14:39.633 --> 14:41.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think they are much more comfortable 14:41.966 --> 14:44.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and authentic in terms of using Twitter, 14:44.566 --> 14:47.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they are much less beholden to, both sides, 14:47.066 --> 14:49.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% much less beholden to the party structure. 14:49.133 --> 14:51.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% In the same way that Nancy Pelosi has a lot 14:51.100 --> 14:52.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of problems on her hands because she's got 14:52.633 --> 14:54.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a lot of members that haven't spent their entire 14:54.533 --> 14:55.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% career in politics. [SMITH] So in some ways 14:55.866 --> 14:57.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the elimination of what we think of 14:57.700 --> 15:00.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as normal behavior is a little bit on the president, 15:00.000 --> 15:02.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but it's also on AOC. [SHERMAN] Sure. 15:02.066 --> 15:04.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Right, and some would argue that that's a response, 15:04.033 --> 15:07.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% obviously, and that's a direct response. 15:07.333 --> 15:09.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Don't know the answer to that. 15:09.000 --> 15:10.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I do think though, when you mentioned Jeb, 15:10.633 --> 15:12.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you mentioned Mitt Romney, what a lot of 15:12.366 --> 15:14.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Republicans tell us behind the scenes is, 15:14.133 --> 15:17.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ignore the noise, ignore all of that, 15:17.033 --> 15:18.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and look at what he's done, is it different 15:18.966 --> 15:22.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% than anything Mitt Romney or Jeb Bush would have done? 15:22.233 --> 15:23.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We had very high level people tell us that 15:23.733 --> 15:26.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in interviews that we had. [SMITH] It was substantive? 15:26.466 --> 15:29.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] Substantively. [SMITH] Look, Trump, on the judges, 15:29.500 --> 15:31.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what Conservatives will say is, "I might not like 15:31.433 --> 15:33.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% his tweets, I might not like the way he deals 15:33.133 --> 15:35.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with people, but how could I not like the judges? 15:35.033 --> 15:36.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% How can I not like the tax cuts?" 15:36.700 --> 15:38.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] Right and the regulation-- [SMITH] Regulation. 15:38.433 --> 15:40.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SHERMAN] --cut back, and all those things. 15:40.133 --> 15:43.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There's a point to that, but that's like you know, 15:43.733 --> 15:45.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% eating a dish that you don't like and saying, 15:45.600 --> 15:47.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Well, at least there was bread in it, 15:47.233 --> 15:48.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and you like bread." You know what I mean? 15:48.733 --> 15:52.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It doesn't make sense on the whole. 15:52.800 --> 15:54.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] So Speaker Pelosi's name has come up, Anna, 15:54.633 --> 15:58.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the return of Nancy Pelosi to the Speakership 15:58.966 --> 16:02.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is another significant narrative thread in this book. 16:02.566 --> 16:05.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And you gotta admire her, whether you like her 16:05.633 --> 16:07.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or don't like her, whether you agree with everything 16:07.666 --> 16:11.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that she says or does or you don't, she's a survivor, right? 16:11.300 --> 16:13.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] Absolutely, I mean, I covered her first Speakership 16:13.800 --> 16:16.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% out of the depths of the minority, 16:16.200 --> 16:18.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I think truly if they had not won the majority back 16:18.733 --> 16:22.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% she was done. She is somebody who we said 16:22.566 --> 16:24.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this about her and Mitch McConnell a lot, 16:24.866 --> 16:28.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but I think it holds so true, she picks something, 16:28.733 --> 16:31.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% her goal at the end point, so does Mitch McConnell. 16:31.100 --> 16:33.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And they steadfastly work towards that goal 16:33.766 --> 16:35.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and wait to get people towards it. 16:35.500 --> 16:37.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% She said she was gonna become Speaker, 16:37.100 --> 16:39.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% she outworked it, I mean there was a lot of noise, 16:39.633 --> 16:41.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% people wanted a lot of things and she got it. 16:41.300 --> 16:43.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I think, even when you look at how the president 16:43.766 --> 16:45.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% reacts to her, in our interview with her, 16:45.200 --> 16:47.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he has a real sort of reverence about her ability 16:47.866 --> 16:51.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to get things done and keep Democrats together. 16:51.833 --> 16:53.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Yeah, I mean in some ways, Jake, the thought was, 16:53.900 --> 16:55.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the best thing that could happen to the president 16:55.600 --> 16:57.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is that Nancy Pelosi become Speaker again. 16:57.800 --> 17:01.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He would at least have a foil. But there's kind of 17:01.166 --> 17:04.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% an inverse to that, which is that she's not afraid of him, 17:04.000 --> 17:07.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% she's not cowed by him, she's not bending. 17:07.366 --> 17:10.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% She's a lot tougher versus the president, 17:10.333 --> 17:13.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% than Paul Ryan ever was or would have been, right? 17:13.433 --> 17:16.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% [SHERMAN] It's a very complicated relationship and dynamic. 17:16.266 --> 17:18.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The White House, in the lead up to the election, 17:18.300 --> 17:20.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% made the case to everybody in Washington, 17:20.533 --> 17:22.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that it's okay if Democrats take the House. 17:22.500 --> 17:24.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Republicans are too complicated. 17:24.266 --> 17:25.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We can't get anything through -- 17:25.966 --> 17:27.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% [SMITH] Right, well the president said he admired the fact 17:27.733 --> 17:29.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that at least Democrats hold together, our guys 17:29.266 --> 17:31.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% don't hold together, but they hold together. 17:31.666 --> 17:34.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SHERMAN] He said that, and he also said, 17:34.466 --> 17:36.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "Now I can just say go get me a bill 17:36.633 --> 17:37.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and I'll see if I'll sign it." 17:37.633 --> 17:39.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Obviously, over simplification 17:39.066 --> 17:41.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of the legislative process, and now he has all 17:41.900 --> 17:44.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% these investigations, but yes he does have a foil. 17:44.333 --> 17:47.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But as you said, I mean Pelosi just has no problem 17:47.366 --> 17:49.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% looking him in the eye and saying "No. This is 17:49.733 --> 17:53.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% where I am, and you're not gonna get what you want to get." 17:53.366 --> 17:55.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And if you're a Republican or a Democrat, 17:55.600 --> 17:59.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as you said, you have to admire Pelosi because 17:59.000 --> 18:00.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% she's able to get things done. 18:00.466 --> 18:02.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You might not like what she's able to get done. 18:02.700 --> 18:05.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But she has an incredible savvy of the legislative process. 18:05.633 --> 18:08.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] At least so far, since she was put back into 18:08.233 --> 18:10.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the Speaker's office, she has been pretty effective, 18:10.466 --> 18:15.166 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% in terms of slowing the president's agenda and effectively 18:15.166 --> 18:17.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% everything in this administration to a crawl 18:17.700 --> 18:19.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% if not a halt. [PALMER] Yeah, I mean, I think 18:19.233 --> 18:22.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we would both believe that she's the most powerful person 18:22.266 --> 18:24.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in Washington right now, things do not happen 18:24.133 --> 18:26.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% unless she-- [SMITH] But for her. 18:26.033 --> 18:27.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] But for her. [SMITH] Elections have consequences. 18:27.833 --> 18:29.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SHERMAN] Big time. [SMITH] The oldest song 18:29.066 --> 18:30.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the world, right? [SHERMAN] I think also 18:30.633 --> 18:34.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there's a dynamic, the dynamic that you spoke of 18:34.933 --> 18:36.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which is, she's able to keep her troops together, 18:36.766 --> 18:39.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and nobody else can, and Donald Trump is like, 18:39.266 --> 18:41.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% why don't I have somebody like that, who can keep 18:41.333 --> 18:43.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% their people together? And I also think, 18:43.033 --> 18:45.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to be honest, she is a powerful woman, 18:45.366 --> 18:47.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and that is a dynamic in Washington 18:47.266 --> 18:50.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that a lot of people have been thrown off by, 18:50.600 --> 18:52.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in her caucus too, right, I mean big newcomers 18:52.333 --> 18:55.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to her caucus have been thrown off by that at times. 18:55.800 --> 18:58.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] Yeah, she also benefits from having Donald Trump 18:58.800 --> 19:01.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as a foil. If there's one thing that Democrats 19:01.133 --> 19:03.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% can agree on, is that they don't like-- 19:03.600 --> 19:05.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] America's fun couple. [SHERMAN] I would argue, 19:05.133 --> 19:08.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that she benefits from-- [SMITH] Benefits from her. 19:08.766 --> 19:12.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SHERMAN] Because she has much more knowhow. 19:12.366 --> 19:14.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] On this question of the Democrats being able to 19:14.900 --> 19:16.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% hold their folks together and the Republicans not, 19:16.933 --> 19:19.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% let me now push back gently and say, 19:19.033 --> 19:22.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% where are the Republicans breaking with this president 19:22.100 --> 19:23.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as evidence of the Republicans 19:23.800 --> 19:25.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% not holding their guys together? 19:25.300 --> 19:28.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Does he have to literally, as he said during the campaign, 19:28.300 --> 19:30.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% shoot somebody in the middle of 5th Avenue 19:30.133 --> 19:32.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for a Republican senator to cross him? 19:32.900 --> 19:35.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, he really has benefited from 19:35.600 --> 19:39.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a unanimity of support among Republicans 19:39.633 --> 19:42.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the Senate, in a way that I don't know 19:42.200 --> 19:43.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that anybody could have imagined. 19:43.800 --> 19:46.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What does he have to do that is out of sync 19:46.200 --> 19:48.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with our expectations, or with what's normal 19:48.866 --> 19:51.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for one of these guys to cross him? 19:51.066 --> 19:52.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [PALMER] I would say a couple of things. 19:52.566 --> 19:55.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think one, there have been some moments, 19:55.033 --> 19:56.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whether it was the national emergency. 19:56.866 --> 19:58.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] John McCain. [PALMER] John McCain. 19:58.433 --> 20:01.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You also had started to see on the Federal Reserve, 20:01.366 --> 20:03.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% when he put up some of the nominees that they didn't like. 20:03.433 --> 20:06.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But I also think, when we travel for this book, 20:06.400 --> 20:09.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what you really see is, if you're a Republican in Congress 20:09.866 --> 20:13.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and you go back home, you are not getting the conversation 20:13.500 --> 20:15.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you just had, it is, why are you not defending 20:15.566 --> 20:18.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% this president more. They love him, he's a rock star. 20:18.433 --> 20:21.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So I think there's a real friction there between 20:21.800 --> 20:23.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what people like yourself are saying 20:23.400 --> 20:25.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and then what they're getting back home. 20:25.000 --> 20:26.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] I mean, but of course if it takes Steve Moore 20:26.233 --> 20:28.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Herman Caine for the Republicans to break 20:28.133 --> 20:30.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with this president, that's an extreme case, is it not? 20:30.700 --> 20:32.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] It is, but they broke with him on foreign policy, 20:32.766 --> 20:34.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on some of the wars in the Middle East. 20:34.733 --> 20:36.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They've broken with him on-- [SMITH] They haven't sustained 20:36.766 --> 20:38.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a veto though have they? [SHERMAN] They've not. 20:38.233 --> 20:42.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that's a numbers problem, more than an ideological 20:42.333 --> 20:45.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% problem, I would argue, but Anna's point 20:45.433 --> 20:48.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is the overwhelming thing that we've learned in this book, 20:48.400 --> 20:49.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% one of the overwhelming lessons is that 20:49.800 --> 20:52.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% members of Congress go home, and they couldn't 20:52.833 --> 20:54.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% be close enough to this president. 20:54.233 --> 20:55.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] They're voting with their districts. 20:55.533 --> 20:57.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SHERMAN] Oh my god, and I know 20:57.400 --> 20:58.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a couple members of Congress, 20:58.666 --> 21:00.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, there were a lot of retirements 21:00.533 --> 21:02.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this cycle, in the House of Representatives 21:02.300 --> 21:04.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% among Republicans. One member who retired said, 21:04.866 --> 21:09.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% "My district is very red, I can't live with myself 21:09.200 --> 21:12.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% going home and having to be with him as much 21:12.133 --> 21:14.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as I have to be with him to win election." This person left. 21:14.833 --> 21:19.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So I think it's a, I think people tend to not remember 21:19.800 --> 21:22.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% how popular he is in some districts, 21:22.433 --> 21:24.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in our gerrymandered country. [SMITH] Right. 21:24.366 --> 21:25.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We just have a couple minutes left. 21:25.600 --> 21:27.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We did the last 26 months of reporting. 21:27.733 --> 21:30.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I want you to look at the next 26 months of reporting. 21:30.333 --> 21:32.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Who is the Democratic nominee for president gonna be? 21:32.633 --> 21:34.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 21:34.266 --> 21:36.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SHERMAN] Anna Palmer. [PALMER] Yeah, right. 21:36.466 --> 21:39.566 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% [SMITH] Palmer, Sherman, yay. [PALMER] Take a ticket in for fall. 21:39.566 --> 21:42.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% No, I mean, I think, maybe I'll speak for both of us, 21:42.333 --> 21:43.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but I'll definitely speak for myself. 21:43.833 --> 21:45.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% After the 2016 election-- [SMITH] Don't predict. 21:45.633 --> 21:46.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [PALMER] Reporters should get 21:46.766 --> 21:48.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% out of the prediction business. 21:48.066 --> 21:49.766 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [SMITH] Yeah, but do you have a sense, 21:49.766 --> 21:52.466 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% let me rephrase. After the last election, 21:52.466 --> 21:54.766 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% are the Democrats stupid enough to put two white men 21:54.766 --> 21:57.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on the ticket? [SHERMAN] I remember, by the way, 21:57.866 --> 22:00.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% some of our editors at Politico saying in 2012 22:00.233 --> 22:01.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there would never be two white people on the ticket. 22:01.700 --> 22:04.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I would have to imagine that there's always a chance 22:04.900 --> 22:07.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but it doesn't seem to be the most appealing option-- 22:07.200 --> 22:09.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] How about, let me, two white men? 22:09.933 --> 22:12.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Will there be a woman on the ticket this next election? 22:12.433 --> 22:14.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] I would think so. [SMITH] And is that because they 22:14.333 --> 22:16.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ought to or because they know that they have no choice 22:16.766 --> 22:18.266 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% but to. [PALMER] It's partially 22:18.266 --> 22:20.833 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% a numbers game, you also look at who are the people 22:20.833 --> 22:23.266 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% that are running for president, and there's a number 22:23.266 --> 22:25.966 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% of women who are running and are-- 22:25.966 --> 22:27.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] More than qualified to serve 22:27.400 --> 22:29.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as Vice President or President. 22:29.033 --> 22:32.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% [SHERMAN] Here's my big question, the president won in part 22:32.233 --> 22:33.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because voters in my estimation, 22:33.833 --> 22:35.866 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% believed that he was uniquely qualified 22:35.866 --> 22:39.266 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% to unlock a city that was mired in gridlock for, 22:39.266 --> 22:41.666 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% choose however many number of years you wanna say. 22:41.666 --> 22:43.500 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% Do those voters believe that again? 22:43.500 --> 22:45.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Has he done it, you think? 22:45.700 --> 22:47.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SHERMAN] I think in some ways he has, 22:47.466 --> 22:50.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in many ways he has not. Like every presidency 22:50.300 --> 22:52.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's a mixed bag, and this bag is more mixed than others. 22:52.700 --> 22:55.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] But you know, Anna, what I see is, 22:55.066 --> 22:59.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there's still gridlock, the swamp is full, 22:59.666 --> 23:04.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but also, the country added 236,000 jobs 23:04.000 --> 23:05.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in the month of April, and the unemployment rate 23:05.800 --> 23:08.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% right now is 3.6%. [SHERMAN] 46-year low. 23:08.533 --> 23:10.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] If he can just keep his mouth shut, 23:10.366 --> 23:13.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and run on the economy, the next election 23:13.200 --> 23:14.800 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% might be very different. [PALMER] He was tweeting today 23:14.800 --> 23:17.433 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% "Jobs, jobs, jobs." I mean, I think you see him 23:17.433 --> 23:19.100 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% return to that, but he also is very savvy-- 23:19.100 --> 23:20.966 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80% [SMITH] Yeah, but later it will be "Lou Dobbs, Lou Dobbs, 23:20.966 --> 23:22.633 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% Lou Dobbs." I mean, that's it, right? 23:22.633 --> 23:24.333 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70% [PALMER] I think we underestimate him. 23:24.333 --> 23:26.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think people think he's just sitting there and going off 23:26.333 --> 23:28.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and not really having a strategy. 23:28.133 --> 23:30.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I actually think he does believe in what he's doing 23:30.833 --> 23:32.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% whether it's going against Mueller, whether it's 23:32.533 --> 23:34.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what he's tweeting about. He thinks he's smarter 23:34.966 --> 23:36.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than all of us, at the @Twitter, and at keeping 23:36.966 --> 23:39.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% his base together. [SMITH] Hard to argue with him 23:39.333 --> 23:42.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at this point, honestly, right? [SHERMAN] It is, and if you 23:42.466 --> 23:45.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% talk to Kevin McCarthy, the number one House Republican, 23:45.033 --> 23:48.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he says, "It's like Bill Clinton in 1998. Good economy, 23:48.566 --> 23:51.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% under siege by the opposition party. Some believe 23:51.666 --> 23:54.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that they will overreach. He believes that's a recipe 23:54.900 --> 23:58.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for reelection." Those two things which Bill Clinton had. 23:58.333 --> 23:59.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Will there be impeachment proceedings? 23:59.966 --> 24:02.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] Doesn't matter to me, because it shouldn't matter 24:02.233 --> 24:04.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to Democrats either, because what Democrats 24:04.266 --> 24:07.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% are doing now is just as damaging to the president 24:07.766 --> 24:11.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in that, constant investigations, no matter 24:11.433 --> 24:14.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% if you call it impeachment or not, has the same 24:14.433 --> 24:18.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% political risk for Donald Trump 24:18.733 --> 24:22.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and dominates the news cycle. [PALMER] I think Democrats 24:22.133 --> 24:24.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% are gonna turn their fire on Attorney General Bill Barr. 24:24.600 --> 24:26.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think that-- [SHERMAN] For the moment. 24:26.366 --> 24:27.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] For the moment, but you can see contempt, 24:27.966 --> 24:29.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you can see impeachment, I think when they are able to 24:29.966 --> 24:33.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% train, Democratic leadership is much more comfortable 24:33.366 --> 24:35.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% training their attention on that then the president. 24:35.266 --> 24:36.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] But you know, a year ago there was a question 24:36.966 --> 24:38.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the middle of the Mueller investigation, 24:38.500 --> 24:41.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% would this president even be on the ticket in 2020? 24:41.266 --> 24:43.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That seems assured at this point. 24:43.333 --> 24:44.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% [SHERMAN] Yes. 24:44.866 --> 24:46.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [PALMER] I think that was people's wishful thinking. 24:46.333 --> 24:47.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] But nonetheless, you know, if you don't have 24:47.733 --> 24:49.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% dreams, you have nightmares, for a lot of people, 24:49.000 --> 24:50.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the thought of the president somehow 24:50.466 --> 24:54.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% being ensnared by Mueller was a present thought 24:54.200 --> 24:57.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or possibility and now, he really does seem 24:57.366 --> 24:59.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to have gotten on the other side of that, hasn't he? 24:59.100 --> 25:00.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [PALMER] I think so. [SHERMAN] And he's got 25:00.466 --> 25:01.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the headline he wants, which is, 25:01.766 --> 25:03.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% no collusion from Bob Mueller. 25:03.933 --> 25:05.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Total exoneration, whatever he wants, 25:05.566 --> 25:08.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% whether it turns out to be legitimately the case or not, 25:08.166 --> 25:11.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he's kind of survived that-- [PALMER] And that ran on 25:11.600 --> 25:14.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% newspapers across the country. [SHERMAN] I think one of the 25:14.200 --> 25:18.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% geniuses of Donald Trump that history will notice 25:18.333 --> 25:21.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is that he just talks about whatever he wants 25:21.266 --> 25:24.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the story to be, no matter what the story is 25:24.133 --> 25:26.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to other people, or to news outlets, 25:26.466 --> 25:28.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he'll go out into a rally and say whatever 25:28.300 --> 25:32.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he wants and just plow ahead, and it sets the narrative 25:32.500 --> 25:34.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in a more firm way than I think 25:34.200 --> 25:35.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% almost any politician we've ever seen. 25:35.900 --> 25:37.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Well yeah, it's an 25:37.133 --> 25:38.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% extraordinary moment to be doing this. 25:38.633 --> 25:40.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And what an extraordinary moment to read this book 25:40.833 --> 25:43.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and to get the back story, and to read you all every day. 25:43.833 --> 25:45.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You guys are telling us every single day 25:45.500 --> 25:46.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what we need to know. [SHERMAN] Thanks, Evan. 25:46.766 --> 25:48.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Thank you Jake, Anna, good luck. 25:48.400 --> 25:51.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Give them a big hand. Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer. 25:51.233 --> 25:53.666 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (applause) 25:53.666 --> 25:56.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SMITH] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:56.333 --> 26:00.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Visit our website at klru.org/overheard 26:00.100 --> 26:03.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to find invitations to interviews, Q&As 26:03.100 --> 26:05.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with our audience and guests and an archive 26:05.533 --> 26:07.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of past episodes. 26:07.200 --> 26:08.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% [SHERMAN] Republicans held 26:08.733 --> 26:10.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Eric Holder in contempt in 2012. [PALMER] Over Fast and Furious. 26:10.233 --> 26:13.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [SHERMAN] Over the Fast and furious gun running probe. 26:13.466 --> 26:17.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And Eric Holder didn't leave office, 26:17.333 --> 26:21.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and neither will Bill Barr. And a court eventually 26:21.666 --> 26:24.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% told the Department of Justice that they needed 26:24.033 --> 26:27.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to fork over documents to Congress, and Congress won. 26:27.800 --> 26:30.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% [NARRATOR] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 26:30.266 --> 26:33.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 26:33.233 --> 26:36.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy, 26:36.033 --> 26:38.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation, 26:38.900 --> 26:43.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart, and by Entergy. 26:43.400 --> 26:45.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (bells chiming)