- [Announcer] Funding for
Overheard with Evan Smith

is provided in part
by Hillco Partners,

a Texas government
affairs consultancy.

And by Claire and Carl Stuart.

- I'm Evan Smith.

He's a much-loved Grammy
Award nominated comedian,

writer, and actor
whose latest film

is the political
thriller Chappaquiddick.

He's Jim Gaffigan,
this is Overheard.

(applause)

Let's be honest, is this
about the ability to learn

or is this about the experience

of not having been
taught properly?

How have you avoided
what has befallen

other nations in Africa?

You could say that
he made his own bed,

but you caused him
to sleep in it?

You saw a problem and over
time took it on, and--

(audience laughing)

Let's start with the sizzle
before we get to the steak.

Are you gonna run for president?

I think I just got an
F from you, actually.

(audience laughing)

(applause)

Jim Gaffigan, welcome.

- Thank you for having me.

- Can I confess something
when I heard you

were in a film called
Chappaquiddick?

I thought, a comedy
about Chappaquiddick?

(audience laughing)
- Oh, right!

- It's not a comedy.

- No, it's not a comedy.

- It's the actual
Chappaquiddick.

- It's a look at the story that

really kind of affected Ted
Kennedy's life completely--

- Arguably changed
history, right?

If you believe the idea
- Absolutely!

- that Ted Kennedy was
going to be president

at some point, and
this might have been

the thing that
disabled it, right?

- Oh yeah, beyond a doubt.

And it's also interesting
given our current political

climate, like what Ted
Kennedy got away with,

the entitlement and
stuff like that.

It's a really fascinating look.

- You and I are the
same age, we're both 51.

- 51, but I look 50.

(audience laughing)
- Is that right?

You don't look a day
over 50 and a half.

- I barely look
50 and six months.

- So we were three years
old when this happened.

So I have no memory
of it, I just know

what I've read over the years.

And I suspect that when you
were contemplating taking this

role, and you contemplated
joining the cast, again, not

something that you had a
lot of experience with.

- I think everybody of our age
knows about Chappaquiddick.

We know that when Ted was
running, he was challenging

Carter, that Chappaquiddick
essentially stopped his chances.

What I find so fascinating
about Chappaquiddick is that

the movie is presented as
not a hit piece, it's not an

apology, they're not
trying to rewrite history,

it's presented as what good art
should do, is ask questions.

And Chappaquiddick
is a horrible thing.

It's what happened.

- Well, the scene where the

car goes off the bridge is
really difficult to watch.

And you think you know
what's coming, but no.

It's really hard, and the way
it's staged is very simple

but it's also very powerful.

- Oh yeah, and we went there
and we shot the scene in Mexico

but we went to Chappaquiddick,
and it's not that deep.

It's really scary.

But what I think is so
interesting about Chappaquiddick

is Ted Kennedy, whether you
love him or you hate him,

I mean I'm an Irish Catholic
so I'm predisposed to love

the Kennedys, but Ted
Kennedy, this horrible event,

and this coverup, you know
like the quintessential

white guy entitlement rich
people get away with murder

thing, but you sit there
and you look at the span

of his career, and you
go, maybe there should

be some redemption for people.

If Chappaquiddick happened
today, Ted Kennedy

would be in jail, but it's not
as if he didn't do some good.

- But it had a low ceiling,
because he could only do

so much good because of this
thing that was sitting there

in his past, you talk
about the coverup.

So your character--

- Yeah, Paul Markham.

- in this movie is Paul Markham.

Paul Markham was the US
attorney in Massachusetts.

He is a Kennedy friend.

- Yeah, a Kennedy friend.

I mean there's the real
history, and then there's

what we tried to
characterize in the movie.

And Paul Markham, the
character I was portraying,

was very much an instrument
to show how alluring

being part of the
Kennedy clan was.

And so in the movie, Paul
Markham my character, finally

gains entry into this
Camelot kind of world

of being part of
the Kennedy group.

But by getting sucked in,
he has to then participate

in this coverup, which is--

- Right, 'cause it's Markham
and it's cousin Joey,

who's played by Ed Helms.

- Yes.

- Who gets the
call from Kennedy,

who's played by Jason Clarke.

- Yes.

- Jason Clarke, I remembered.

I was looking at Jason Clarke.

I was watching the movie
thinking, where have I seen this

guy, and I remembered him
from Zero Dark Thirty,

but he's actually done
quite a lot of stuff since--

- He's done a lot of stuff.

- Since then.

So Markham and cousin Joe
get a call from Kennedy,

and then the next day
they're actually upset among

other things, at the fact
that he didn't report

this incident in
a timely fashion.

- Right.

- Right?

- There's a lot of different
theories on what actually

happened that night, but one
of the things that is covered

is at this night out where
there was a lot of alcohol,

and there was a lot of
married men and single women,

that this event occurred,
Ted came back to the house,

and he asked for two people.

One happens to be his cousin
who essentially raised

as a brother with him,
and another was a lawyer.

And so it was definitely
pursuing a legal solution

from this, but it's hard
to characterize it without

looking at some of
the emotional impact

that Ted had gone through.

We know his brothers
were killed.

And we know that he was young,

and we know that he was
pursuing good things.

We know he was corrupted, that
he was a philandering drunk.

But it's hard to separate
that from the humanity

of who he was, and I think
Jason does an amazing job

portraying him.
- And it's hard also

to not think about the family
of the girl who was killed.

- Oh, insane, yeah.
- Right, who was

played in this
movie by Kate Mara.

- Yes.

- Last seen being killed
in House of Cards.

- Yes.
(audience laughing)

And what's interesting is--

- We're not making a joke
about that, by the way.

- What's interesting, I think,
about you watch the movie

and the Kopechnes
don't blame Ted.

And that kind of is
used as a pivotal point

in him maybe going, all right,
I'm not gonna be defined

by this one event,
or maybe he uses it

to propel this massive coverup.

Ed Helms' character presents
the right thing to do.

I'm just this innocent guy
who's thrilled to be part

of the Kennedy
group, and now I'm

completely corrupted.
- Suddenly in the middle

of all this.

- Paul Markham could have
been a supreme court judge,

we don't know, but his
career was kind of damaged.

- That was pretty much it.

I said at the beginning it's
hard to think of this not as a

comedy given the fact that
you're in it, but you have done

dramatic acting before,
this is not the first time.

You like doing this.

This is something
that you enjoy?

- Oh, I love acting.

It's just the process of getting
acting roles that I find...

(audience laughing)

- Right, it would
stand to reason that

that would be one obstacle.

Not getting a role would be an
obstacle to being in a film.

- Auditioning, I describe
it as it's kind of like

stripping but you
don't get a dollar.

(audience laughing)

It's a very humiliating process.

I love acting, but I work
in the perception industry.

And so I'm perceived
as a funny guy.

And Ed Helms's a
very funny guy, but--

- Although Ed Helms too has
made the transition as you have.

- And I think it's odder
for a serious person

to do something funny
than a funny person

- [Both] To do
something serious.

- Is the harder time on the
perception industry, is the

harder time for them to
see you in a dramatic role,

or for you to see yourself
in a dramatic role?

- Oh I think it's them.

I think it's those people.

- You're perfectly
comfortable with--

- I enjoy it.

I mean, look, my Twitter feed,
there'll be an episode of

Law & Order that will air
and people will almost

sound angry that I was in
an episode of Law & Order.

- How dare you!

- Yeah, they're
like, you're supposed

to just be talking about food.

(audience laughing)

- Yeah!

We were visiting before we came
out here about your program,

TV Land, and I guess it
airs on multiple places.

The Jim Gaffigan Show
which was two seasons

but is no longer back.

In some respects, that's
acting except you are acting

as you, a fictionalized
version of you.

And that's become a more or less

common form for
people in comedy.

I think about Marc
Maron's program,

or Louis CK's program, right?

But nonetheless, it's
a pretty good show.

- Oh, thank you.

- You're very good at being you.

(audience laughing)

- We had an episode where
I had to audition to be me.

But when we were doing the
show, there's me, there's

stand-up comedy me, and
then there's actor-y me

in the Jim Gaffigan Show,
and we described it as

removing IQ points
along the way.

(audience laughing)
- As you go down the line.

- It's like, all right this
guy doesn't know anything.

- So you play you, but
someone else plays your wife.

- Yes.

- Your actual wife does
not play your wife,

although your actual
wife has a role.

- Yes.

- In that she had been the
co-writer of this program.

We wrote all the--

- Jeanne.

- Jeannie.

And executive producer of it.
- Jeannie, and is an

extraordinary writer,
accomplished writer herself.

Did she ever consider
the possibility

of being herself in this?

- She did consider it,
and the show itself

was first at NBC, and then
it was at CBS, and then

we ended up at TV Land
and along that path

there's bureaucracy that
exists where people wanted

a household name to play
the character of Jeannie.

And we also realized that
it was good to have someone

who could direct or who could
be the executive producer

and have a perspective
on the scene,

rather than being
involved in it.

- Right, or you could just
decide to be like Kevin James

and randomly kill your wife
on the show and then put a

new person in, they said
nobody would actually know it.

It's convenient that way.

Hard to kill your
actual wife, right?

- Hard to kill.

I tried.

(audience laughing)

- And there are five kids on
the show, who are your kids.

And you have five
kids in real life.

And they're also played
by not your actual kids.

- We did a pilot episode
where it was our kids.

It was just a bad idea.

And I've done a lot of stuff.

I did commercials with my kids.

Acting is relatively boring.

It's a lot of sitting around

and waiting.
- Waiting, right.

- We want our kids to have
somewhat of a normal childhood.

And there are plenty of actor
kids that wanna do that.

- Right, I love the fact
that you are as devoted

to the story of your family
in the show as you are,

because it is the
case and I think

it's quite admirable honestly.

I make a lot of it
that in real life

you're a devoted
family person, too.

I know people who are
devoted to their families.

Part of the Gaffigan brand
is that you put family first.

That despite your career
being so busy and all the

things that you do, you always
find time to have dinner

with your family if
you're in New York,

you take your kids with you

and your wife on
tour if you can.

As we're sitting here in
Austin, Texas, you don't

have your family with,
but you could encounter

you with your family around.

I just think that's
an admirable thing

and it must be difficult
to manage in the course of

having a busy career as
a comedian and actor.

- It is complicated, but it's
also a luxury, I should say.

I'm very lucky that when we've
done stuff on a tour bus,

and we have five kids on a
tour bus, that I'm fortunate

that I can do a theater in a
city and then drive overnight

to another theater, and I'm
also fortunate that my wife is

interested in doing
stuff like this.

And you know, say, all right
for Columbus Day weekend,

now we're going to Seattle!

I think some people would be
like, no we're not doing that.

(audience laughing)

- Right, not only are
we not doing that,

you're not doing that.

- Right.

- But it's the family business.

- It's the family business.

And I feel like I'm very
fortunate to do what I enjoy.

And the reason I am a
comedian, I was raised to seek

security, to wear a
collared shirt and a tie,

and so when I chose this path
of being a comedian and actor,

I kind of put it in
this rocking chair test.

Like at the end of my life
I'm in a rocking chair,

what am I gonna look
back and regret.

And that's the same approach
I have with being a parent

or being around my children.

It's like in hindsight, am
I gonna sit there and go,

why didn't I just bring my
family too when I did a show

in London and I didn't make
any money because I brought

everyone, but at least
everyone was there.

- And they have an experience
that they remember,

and you get to be with them.

And this is the important
part, so you have five kids.

The oldest is 13?

- 13.

- Oldest is 13, so
it's five under 13.

The other thing I didn't
mention that I love is

that you try not
to work on Sunday.

- Yes.

- Right?

I mean this is the kind of thing

that the best people I know do.

They say we're never
gonna get this time back

with our family, and so
I'm gonna construct my life

where we put them first and
we schedule around them,

as opposed to the reverse.

And I think that's--

- Oh, thank you.

- It's an honorable
and an admirable thing.

- Well, thanks.

- So that's part of
the Gaffigan brand.

Also part of the Gaffigan
brand, and we heathens

in the media may make
too much of this,

is he doesn't curse
in his stand-up.

That it's clean comedy.

Do we make too much?

I know that everyone always
says that you mention

Jim Gaffigan, and they
go, oh he's a clean comic.

As if somehow that's a
knock on you or a ding.

- Yeah, it's interesting
because I am clean.

But my joke when people
say, why don't you curse?

I always say Jesus
told me not to.

(audience laughing)

But I do feel as though
comedians spend a lot of time

developing and discovering
their point of view,

whether it be irreverent,
or whether it be combative,

or whether it be
observational, or silly.

And I think a lot of comedians
get their point of view

or their style, and then
people give credit or criticism

to them for embracing it,
like oh you're so brave.

It's like, they're
not really that brave.

That's just who they are.

And some of it is where they're
from and family culture.

I mean, look I curse when I
stub my toe or anything like

that, but if I'm on stage in
front of a bunch of strangers

talking about muffins,
it's not really necessary.

(audience laughing)

So it would seem inauthentic.

- Right, well this
is who you are.

- Yeah, and that being said,
I've done five hours of

stand-up, and I'm touring
with this new hour.

And some of it is, and I love
stand-up so much, but some of

it is stand-up is this
conversation you have, and

similar to talking with
friends you challenge them.

You don't have the same
conversation with the friends

you really enjoy talking to.

It's evolving.

So you challenge them,
and they challenge you.

And so the
conversation can shift.

I'm not just talking
about food only.

I'm not just talking
about my kids only.

But it's the context of
knowing, all right this guy

has five kids, that I can talk
about some other aspect of,

in this hour my wife having
a brain tumor, which was--

- And saying, let's just
accept, thank God she's okay.

- Oh yeah, thank God, right?

- Right, but that's you're
just talking to people about

the stuff that is important
and interesting to you.

- Right.

- And it doesn't necessarily
require you to be

Richard Pryor or Chris Rock.

- Right.

- And you acknowledge that,
I mean Richard Pryor I know

is an influence of yours.

You loved Richard Pryor's
comedy growing up.

These are people who
had no problem cursing.

That was part of their
approach to the craft.

And you don't begrudge them
that, you're not judging them.

- No, some of my
favorite comedians curse

and stuff like that, but some
of it's about being authentic.

I had this interview with
Larry King, and he said--

- Oh, please tell me he cursed.

(audience laughing)

- No, but he asked me, he said
you know it's so interesting

as I'm asking you why don't
you curse, and this is

Larry King, he goes when I
started doing this when I would

interview comedians, I would ask

- [Both] Why do you curse?

- This is how the
world has shifted.

- Yeah.

And so some of it is in New
York, developing in New York,

I'm a '90s comedian,

it just didn't sound

right coming out of me.

It's not like I didn't--

- You are who you are.

I was trying to think of
another comedian who, if I think

about this notion of a
clean comedian, and somebody

who's unbelievably funny
but who's family friendly

as a comedian, and I was
thinking Jerry Seinfeld.

And I saw the episode of the
Jerry Seinfeld internet thing,

comedians in--

- Cars.

- Cars with coffee.

He's an idol of
yours, or somebody who

you aspire to be like, right?

You like him.
- Yeah.

A big inspiration.
- Definitely.

I think Seinfeld is--

- It occurred to me you all
were similar in that way.

- I think comedians have to
develop a set of principles

or rules for how they write
and how they view comedy.

Comedians are constantly
talking about comedy,

and Seinfeld is somebody
who's, you know Seinfeld

and Chris Rock, and Dave
Chappelle, they're always

talking comedy, but Seinfeld
believes in these absolutes.

His theories about always
working on ideas and coming up

with a fresh perspective,
it's worked great for him.

So it's really interesting
to talk to him about it.

- And he, like you, is an
observational comedian.

There are different--

- I'll tell him that he's
an observational comedian.

He hates it.
- He hates to hear that.

- Because he's an absolutist.
- We need to categorize people

- He goes, it's just
funny or not funny.

That's all it is.

- But it's a style of comedy
that at least we novices,

lay people on the outside,
who like to put people in

categories, that's his category.

- [Jim] Absolutely.

- When did you know
you wanted to do this?

If I'm remembering this
right, you went to college,

you went to Purdue
for a short while,

and then went to

- [Both] Georgetown.

- And then came out of college
and went into advertising

immediately, is that right?

- I studied finance in college.

I'm the youngest of

six kids
- Six kids, right.

- I'm from a small town,
like my father was--

- [Evan] In Illinois.

- The first one
to go to college.

And so we were raised
to seek this security,

and then you'd work your ass
off and then when you're in

your '60s you play golf for
five years, and then you die.

(audience laughing)

And so that's how I was raised.

- We have about 10 years left.

You make it sound good.

(audience laughing)

They get to work on
some other stuff.

- And so I was raised
to do that, and I

just followed what
people were supposed,

you know, they're like
do this, you know.

Go to this school, study
finance, get this job,

and then you're set.

And the reality is, is it
wasn't fulfilling, and so I--

- How soon after you took
the job outta college

did you decide, it's
not really for me?

- I'd say it was pretty soon.

- It was?

- It was pretty soon where
I had this romantic notion,

like the night before
graduation I told a friend,

I told her, I said, you
know I wanna be a comedian

and an actor, and I said, but
I know everyone wants to do

that, and she's like, I don't
think everyone wants to do

that, and I'm like,
no, everyone does.

(audience laughing)

Like I just thought everyone

wanted to do that.
- Had you done anything

in college that made you
think I'm good at this,

or had you experimented
in any way?

You sort of knew it intuitively
that that's what you--

- I had hosted a
talent show in college,

but I was essentially just
drunk the entire time.

(audience laughing)

Because I had incredible
stage fright for I'd say

the first 10 years
I did stand-up.

- Really?

- Yeah, it was something--

- It seems like a problem.

(audience laughing)

- It's huge, I mean
actually I pursued

these improv classes because
I had such a fear of,

even working in advertising
when I started I would talk,

and I would just turn bright
red because I would just start

hyperventilating and someone
suggested I do an improv class

so that I could feel
more comfortable.

- [Evan] Just get better at it.

- Yeah.

- How many nights do you
spend on the road now touring,

with or without family.

When you're working on
comedy, how often are you out?

- I would say there's 52
weeks, I would say at least 40.

- God, it just seems grueling.

- You know, it's...

First of all there's a big
difference between staying in

a Super 8 hotel and
staying in a nice hotel.

- Right, you're in the nice
hotel phase of your career.

- Right.

I'm in Austin right now.

- Doing how many nights?

- Two nights.

- Two nights, but you're
here for multiple days.

So when you say that you're on
the road a lot, it's not like

literally stop, travel,
stop, travel, stop, travel.

Sometimes it's like come
to a place, hang out for a

few days, right?

- It's typically just
one or two nights,

which is done by design
and I'm grateful for it.

So that I can get back
and be with my family.

So I might be gone Friday,
Saturday, and I'm home Sunday.

And I leave early Friday
morning, but I would say

there is something
about, I enjoy it.

And believe me, I'm a
complainer, traveling
is not something

I enjoy, but going through
this scare with my wife

being gravely ill, and
there was this possibility

where I was gonna be a
single father with five kids.

And I was not about to just
outsource this to someone else

and continue my career
path, so I feel like I'm

getting a second wind at this.

- New lease on life.

- Yeah, so it's like, yeah,
sitting at an airport's

not great, but--

- Beats being a single parent.

- Yeah, it beats--

- Thank God your wife's okay.

- Yeah.

- Right.

The shows that you do are
typically the same shows?

How iterative is your process?

Do you find that from
show to show within a city

or within the course of a week
or two that you're refining

and adding, and

what's your process like?
- I would say it changes.

I work within hours, right?

And so now I'm in the process
of creating a new hour,

and I'll remove stuff that
works and it has to be

replacing something, and
it has to be strong enough

to replace something, and so
I'll come up with new material,

and it typically takes a year
to come up with a new hour.

But that being said,
it changes a lot.

We live in a day and age,
where it's fascinating

being this, whether
you wanna call it

observational comedian, because
I have seen over the past

year since the election, there
is the mention of politics

across the country has
made people, I describe it,

they start looking
at the ceiling.

And it's because there is,
so in other words the type of

comedy I'm doing, this break
from this topical stuff,

is almost more appreciated.

I was actually worried.

I was like, do I have to
talk about politics now?

- In fact you're the antidote.

- In fact I'm kind of this
reprieve because most of

everyone's day either
watching news or reading news,

so they wanna go
and hear about this.

- How self-critical
are you, or are you--

Let me ask it a different way.

Are you a good audience
for your stuff?

Do you know when
something is funny

and it turns out
that you're right?

Or does it sometimes, well,
we'll see how this goes,

and then you're surprised by
the audience's reaction to it?

- I would say it's
an ongoing thing.

There's something about,
you can call it laugh ears

where that's part of
the editing process.

You'll present an
idea, and you'll hear

how an audience responds to it.

- You ever work it out in
advance and have a trusted

group of people who you
bounce stuff off of?

- Well, my wife and
I, we write together.

- Right, so built in.

- That's a huge thing, and
there will be jokes or lines

that might work in the
show but my wife will say,

you gotta get rid of it, and
we'll have a discussion about

why we have to get rid of it.

- [Evan] And she's
usually right.

- She's usually right!

- That's how this goes.

We have about a minute left.

What's the funniest line
that you're now using out.

Can you give us one funny thing?

What's your favorite thing
that you're working through?

- Well it's usually the newest
joke is always the funniest.

- So what's the latest joke?

- I came up with this line.

What kind of antidepressants
do you have to be on

to enjoy cross country skiing?

(audience laughing)

And that's one of those where
it was, and I just plugged

it in, and it was
like, all right!

- And it worked!

(audience laughing)

Good.
- Yeah.

- Hey, great to have an
opportunity to be with you.

- Thank you.

- Good luck on
everything you're doing,

and look forward to
seeing you again.

- Appreciate it.

- [Evan] Jim Gaffigan,
thanks a lot!

(applause)

We'd love to have you
join us in the studio.

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archive of past episodes.

- Letterman was this
curmudgeon who was sardonic and

everything, and we shifted
to Jimmy Fallon and Ellen

during the day, where it
was much more palatable,

and there was almost
kind of a resistance to

the cynicism or the misanthropic
tone of a Letterman.

And so it kind of shifts.

- [Announcer] Funding for
Overheard with Evan Smith

is provided in part
by Hillco Partners,

a Texas government
affairs consultancy.

And by Claire and Carl Stuart.