[NARRATOR] Funding for
Overheard With Evan Smith

is provided in part
by HillCo Partners,

a Texas government
affairs consultancy,

the Alice Kleberg
Reynolds Foundation,

Claire and Carl Stuart,

and by Entergy.

[EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith.

He's an Academy Award
Nominated Director

whose credits include
"Juno," "Up in the Air,"

and "Thank You for Smoking."

His latest film
about the Gary Hart,

Donna Rice affair is
"The Front Runner."

He's Jason Reitman.

This is Overheard.

Let's be honest.

Is this about the
ability to learn,

or is this about the experience

of not having been
taught properly?

How have you avoided
what has befallen

other nations in Africa and

You could say that
he'd made his own bed,

but you caused him
to sleep in it.

You know, you saw a problem,
and over time, took it on.

Let's start with the sizzle
before we get to the steak.

Are you gonna run for President?

I think I just got an
F from you, actually.

This is Overheard.

(audience applauds)

[SMITH] Jason Reitman, welcome.

[JASON REITMAN] Thank you.

[SMITH] Thank you very
much for being here.

Congratulations on
your latest great film.

[REITMAN] Thank you very much.

[SMITH] Why is Gary Hart of
interest to an audience today?

This is 30 years since the
Gary Hart, Donna Rice story

played out in
front of all of us.

You're 41, so you were

[REITMAN] I was 10.

Look, when this happened,
I was much more interested

in the trajectory of the
"Back to the Future" trilogy

than I was in American politics.

[SMITH] I can cop to having
been a nerd at that time.

I remember this story.

I'm fascinated,
I'm your audience.

Why is it of interest
to the broad audience?

[REITMAN] Well, this, you
know, really my journey

on this film started
three years ago

when I listened to a Radio
Lab piece about Gary Hart,

based on Matt Bai's book
of the same subject.

[SMITH] Right, "All the Truth
is Out" was the Matt Bai book.

New York Times Magazine writer,

and other publications,
great, great book.

[REITMAN] Great book, and
I just couldn't believe

that there was this moment
in our recent history

when the presumed next
President of the United States

wound up in his alleyway
in the middle of the night

with these journalists.

[SMITH] Pursued by reporters.

[REITMAN] No one knew
what to do because no one

had been in their shoes before.

Within a week, he had
left politics forever.

So, this idea, this
thriller of a guy

going from next president
to leaving politics

in less than a week.

It had all this
connective tissue

with all the things that
we're talking about today,

gender politics, what
defines a public life

versus a private
life, the relationship

between politicians
and journalists.

It had all of that in
this tight packed story.

[SMITH] Yeah, let's say
that just 30 years ago,

someone was forced out
of a presidential race,

or got himself out,
because he had an affair

with a woman, and was
found out by the press,

and today we have the
President of the United States

who had his lawyer
pay off a porn star

who he had an affair with,

and everybody goes, "Eh.'

[REITMAN] Right.

Yeah, and it raises
the real question...

[SMITH] How far we've come.

[REITMAN] ...of what
is our interest.

[SMITH] You mean
the public interest.

[REITMAN] Yeah, look
I'm like anyone here.

I wonder how the
hell did we get here.

And I wake up, and the first
thing I do is I open my phone,

and I check the news,
and I go, oh no!

And, generally there is a story.

There'll be one story
about, I don't know,

the midterms, Kavanaugh
hearings, whatever,

and then right next to
it, from the same source,

will be a story
about Ariana Grande

and Pete Davidson breaking up.

And it's confusing.

Which one's entertainment
and which one is

[SMITH] Which one is serious?

[REITMAN] Is politics.

[SMITH] I could argue both
sides of that, by the way.

[REITMAN] Yeah, but we
talk about politics now

as though we're talking
about last night's episode

of "Sopranos" or
"Game of Thrones."

[SMITH] It's reality show stuff.

I mean that's it.

That's the transformation
of politics.

[REITMAN] So when I
started talking to people

about the Gary Hart scandal,

people would inevitably
say the same thing.

They would go, Monkey Business.
It's the name of this boat.

[SMITH] The name of the boat
that he and Donna Rice were on.

[REITMAN] And they would
go, what was her name?

What was that blonde's name?

They would talk about her
like she was an object,

not a human being.

And I found that this story
basically had become a meme,

a joke, three
ideas, a photograph.

And not something real,
something that happened,

something in which
the ground shifted,

and our relationship with
all these ideas changed.

[SMITH] It was an
extraordinary moment.

People don't remember,
if they don't remember,

it was an extraordinary
moment in American politics.

So, the context is

Gary Hart's the United
States Senator from Colorado.

He runs for president in 1984.

Walter Mondale, the
former vice president,

is the presumed front
runner in that race.

Hart comes on the scene.

He's a fresh face.

He has new ideas.

Mondale mocks him at the time

for having these new ideas
with nothing behind them,

by calling out the old
Wendy's ad campaign,

"Where's the beef?'

In fact, that's one of the
earliest things in the movie

is that clip of...

[REITMAN] Yeah, it's one of
the first things you see.

[SMITH] Mondale saying to
Hart, I think about that ad,

"Where's the beef?'

Hart drops out, Mondale
becomes the nominee,

is crushed, as Hart suggests
in the movie he will be,

by Reagan.

Hart comes back
around in '88, runs,

[REITMAN] Yeah there's
that famous electoral map

where there's one state.

[SMITH] One state, Minnesota,
where Mondale wins.

And then Hart comes
back four years later,

runs again, and is the
presumed front runner himself.

And so, this all
plays out really,

the '88 presidential
campaign, Democratic primary.

All this stuff plays out.

Hugh Jackman plays Gary Hart.

[REITMAN] Yes.

[SMITH] Hugh Jackman
is a terrific actor.

I wouldn't have imagined
Hugh Jackman as Gary Hart,

in all the world.

- Well, he's Australian.

And he's Wolverine.

[SMITH] That's the
problem is he's Wolverine!

Wolverine had an
affair with Donna Rice.

[REITMAN] The press
go after Wolverine,

and Wolverine's
just like ssshhhh.

[SMITH] Ahhhh,
Washington Post, ahhhh.

Right, no but I'm
really thinking about

[REITMAN] I like your
Wolverine impersonation.

[SMITH] You only get one.

I'm actually thinking about,

the whole time
I'm watching this,

he disappeared into
that character.

You know what it
made me think of?

It made me think
of another movie

with Ben Bradlee
portrayed by somebody.

It made me think of "The Post"

and Meryl Streep playing
Katharine Graham.

After a while, I forgot
it was Meryl Streep.

And after a while, I
forgot it was Hugh Jackman.

[REITMAN] Hugh
Jackman, beyond being

one of the most decent actors

I've ever met, is easily
the hardest working.

[SMITH] Works hard.

[REITMAN] Oh my God.

I remember one day
I saw him he had

a notebook this thick,
all on Gary Hart,

and I said, "Did you
read that whole thing?'

And he said, 'That's
book one of five."

It was a stack this
high of research.

[SMITH] He prepared.

[REITMAN] He knew speeches
that were not in the movie.

He knew talking points
that weren't in the movie.

There's this press
conference at the end of it,

a really important
press conference,

and the whole direction was

look there's an X on
the ground out there.

Go stand on it.

People are gonna start
asking you questions.

[SMTIH] And he just did it.

[REITMAN] He didn't know where
they were gonna come from.

He became this role, he
took it very seriously,

and it's a very tricky part.

If you think about Hugh Jackman,

what you think about
is this actor who,

whether he's P.T. Barnum, or
in Les Mis, or even Logan,

he's an actor who kinda
reaches out from the screen,

and grabs the
audience by the ribs,

and pulls them into the movie.

This is a very different role.

This is Hugh Jackman like
you've never seen him before,

'cause he plays an enigma,
which is a very tricky thing.

[SMITH] And sometimes
empathetic in the movie,

or sometimes you feel
empathy or sympathy for him,

but often he is both
beleaguered and contemptuous

in this character, as Gary
Hart himself actually was.

[REITMAN] Right, and we're
trying to understand him.

We're trying to
understand his decisions,

and he brings us
like within an inch,

but never completely lets us in.

- Right, so J.K. Simmons
plays the campaign manager,

Bill Dixon in this film.

[REITMAN] Yeah, it's my
ninth movie with him.

[SMITH] I remembered
that you produced,

executive producer
of "Whiplash," right?

But you've done other
things with him, right?

[REITMAN] "Thank You
for Smoking," "Juno,"
"Up in the Air."

[SMITH] What an extraordinary,
he was the dad in Juno.

He is an extraordinary actor.

[REITMAN] Yes.

And is just great, and
he's very J.K. Simmons,

let me just say it that
way, in this movie.

Alfred Molina plays Ben Bradlee.

[REITMAN] First time
working with Molina.

I mean, that's a life goal.

[REITMAN] And Vera
Farmiga is Lee Hart.

And you had worked
with her before.

One of my favorite scenes in
"Up in the Air," a great film,

[REITMAN] Thank you.

[SMITH] A great film,

was when George Clooney goes
to Chicago, finally to say

[REITMAN] Are you
about to ruin it?

(audience laughs)

You are about to
spoil the movie.

[SMITH] I could.

It's an old movie. Can
you spoil an old movie?

[REITMAN] You what scene
I love in "Citizen Kane?"

It's when they finally...
[SMITH] Rosebud!

(laughing)

[SMITH] Hold it.

Isn't there a statute of
limitations on ruining a movie?

[REITMAN] Let me tell you
about the "Usual Suspects."

[SMITH] Juno gets
pregnant. Spoiler.

(Jason laughing)

Well, I'm just gonna say,
fill in your own blank.

But she's a great actress,

and I remember seeing
her in "The Departed,"

right, in which she was
absolutely fantastic,

and you have found two
great roles for her.

So, I think the casting
of this is amazing.

And as I said to you
before we came on stage,

these big name actors
are supported by

an actor from every HBO
series, in a supporting role.

Paul from the "The Deuce," Big
Head from "Silicon Valley,"

Ray from "Girls" are all
in minor parts in this.

It's such a wonderful
collection of people,

and you're always
so good with actors.

[REITMAN] That's very kind.

Look, this is a movie
with 20 main characters.

[SMITH] Yeah, it really is.

[REITMAN] And it's
easy to get lost into

the Gary Hart of it all.

But it's actually
almost not about him,

as much as it is
about the rest of us.

What's interesting about
the Gary Hart scandal

is what it says
about the rest of us.

[SMITH] So what is the message

that we're supposed to
take away from this.

Because I think the
point you made earlier,

how far we've come and
how far we haven't,

the fact that what was
then considered to be

this extraordinary scandal
wouldn't even really rate today,

given the politics
of the moment, right?

I mean having an
affair is so quaint.

[REITMAN] I think
that was your point.

[SMITH] But you don't
think that's true?

It seems undeniable to me.

[REITMAN] I think sex matters.

[SMITH] Still.

[REITMAN] Well, it's
this white hot topic,

and when we talk about sex,

we don't talk about
anything else,

so we just have to
be very judicious

about when we talk about it
and how we talk about it.

[SMITH] Would it be
a disqualifier today?

Somebody comes on the scene.

We're about to have a
presidential campaign

with 150 Democrats
running, apparently.

If one of them is found
to have had an affair,

would that be a disqualifier
in the way that it was then?

[REITMAN] Here's the
interesting question.

We live in a moment, where,

if you're someone who
experiences shame,

you step out of the
race, and you walk away.

If you're someone who
doesn't experience shame...

[SMITH] The absence of shame.

[REITMAN] ...you stay
in and you thrive.

So, we have a system that
somehow favors the shameless.

(audience laughs)

[SMITH] You just depressed me
to an extraordinary degree.

[REITMAN] Nice to meet y'all.

(Jason and audience laugh)

[SMITH] An upbeat moment
in this interview.

Before we kinda
broaden from this film,

I wanna talk about two
things in this film

that really I loved.

There is a pivotal
scene in the alley,

you talked about this, where
the reporters confront,

and again not spoiling anything,

people know the Gary Hart story.

There's a pivotal scene.

[REITMAN] He doesn't
become president.

[SMITH] By the way.

(audience laughs)

In the end. There's a
pivotal scene in the alley

where the Washington
Post reporter,

I mean the Miami Herald
reporters, pardon me,

have been stalking Gary Hart.

They've been staking him out,

and they finally confront
Hart in the alley,

and they have kind of,
what I would describe as,

an argument about
why they're there.

And at one point, after the
reporter for the Herald,

Tom Fiedler, or the character
playing Tom Fiedler,

asked questions of
Hart, what is he doing

and the relationship
with the woman,

Hart, Hugh Jackman says to him,
"I know my responsibility."

He's basically saying isn't it

your responsibility to
answer these questions.

"I know my responsibility,

do you know yours?"

And I thought, what
a great encapsulation

of the relationship between
the politics and the press.

What side of the line you're on.

In that respect
nothing has changed.

He may as well have
said fake news.

[REITMAN] I mean, I suppose so.

It's not even as much fake news,

in my opinion, as much
as what is relevant?

And that is the question

that the movie is
asking all the time.

[SMITH] Well, didn't we
have, and again I go back

to the current president,
then candidate,

and when the Access
Hollywood tape came out.

Wasn't the argument
by the Trump folks,

and maybe Trump even
himself, why does this matter

or this shouldn't matter?

[REITMAN] He made so
many different arguments.

At first he was making arguments

about it not even being true.

[SMITH] It wasn't me.

- Yeah, it wasn't me
and then didn't matter

or it's locker room talk.

[SMITH] But the locker room
talk argument basically

is another way of
saying, is this relevant?

[REITMAN] Right. So, this
is why the Gary Hart scandal

is such an interesting
litmus test.

It's really hard to
talk about Trump.

He's such an
indecent human being

that I just can't find the
worthy conversation, frankly.

But with Gary Hart, you have
a guy, who was prescient

beyond all imagination.

He was a guy who, in
the mid '80s, was saying

this country is addicted to oil.

That addiction will take
us into the Middle East

where we will encounter
Islamic terrorism

and not know how to fight it,

'cause we have a military
that primarily bombs people.

[SMITH] He was basically
talking about climate

before climate was a thing.

[REITMAN] Before climate,
he talked about it.

In '81 he met Steve
Jobs in the garage

and came back to
the Senate and said,

"The economic difference
in the future will be

those who know how to use
computers and those who don't,

and we need to put a
computer in every classroom."

In '99 he went to
George Bush and said,

"We're gonna be
attacked by planes."

This is a guy who has been able
to see around every corner,

who was charismatic,
Kennedyesque, was
a great candidate.

Also, a human being. [SMITH]
Flawed, like the rest of us.

[REITMAN] Flawed
and makes mistakes,

and makes mistakes
that we can understand,

not ones like the
Access Hollywood tape

that literally boggle the mind,

but real mistakes that
happen to real marriages.

So, now the question
is, what of it matters?

Now we can have
this conversation,

particularly thirty years later,

not at a 12, the way
it happens on Twitter,

but in this movie
where it's at a six.

[SMITH] And I love the
fact, because it does

cause us all to have that,
I totally agree with you,

that it occasions
that conversation.

Quickly, the second
thing in the movie

that I wanna call
out specifically.

There's a scene with Alex
Karpovsky and J.K. Simmons

talking about Warren
Beatty and Gary Hart

who are famously friends.

And J.K. Simmons is
recounting the conversation

that Hart had told him that
he and Warren Beatty had had,

and Beatty is saying basically,

"There's no privacy anymore,
cameras are everywhere.'

And Hart says, "Well,
that's just Hollywood.

That's not politics.

That's the paparazzi."
And Beatty's reaction,

and J.K. Simmons' reaction is.

"No, that's basically
everything."

We are now in an era where
everything is filmed, streamed.

Nothing is private.

The E in email
stands for everybody.

You can't really expect
any privacy at any moment,

and especially if
you're in public life,

if you're running for president.

You are the public's property,
100% of the time, right?

I think that's an
amazing realization,

and the fact that it
was a shock to anybody,

Gary Hart or anybody
else ever seems so weird.

- Right, and so it
raises this question

of who is not running for
politics because of that.

[SMITH] Right.

[REITMAN] Gary Hart steps
away from this race.

Gary Hart isn't kicked
out of politics.

Gary Hart walks
away from politics.

[SMITH] He makes a conscious
decision to walk away.

- The interesting thing
about Hart is that,

this word that always come
up with Hart is character.

What does it say
about his character?

Well, one thing that it
says about his character is

he wasn't willing to
say whatever we wanted,

he wasn't willing to lie,
he didn't come back and say,

"I'll do whatever you need.

What do you need me to
do to be the president?"

He didn't walk away for a year

and then get a job
at MSNBC and be like,

oh I'll be a pundit, and then
I'll find my way back in.

[SMITH] He didn't make excuses.

[REITMAN] He walked
away and he stayed away.

Wrote books, but
lived in Denver.

So, how many other
Gary Harts are there?

How many other people
who are not running

because they look
at these debates,

and they look at our
president, and go,

"That's the conversation
you wanna have?'

[SMITH] I don't wanna do that.

[REITMAN] "No, thank you."

[SMITH] Have you shown
the film to Hart?

[REITMAN] Oh, yeah.

Talk about the scariest
screening of my life.

[SMITH] Alright,
talk about that.

[REITMAN] Uh, I mean...

[SMTIH] Cause he's still alive.

He's still out in the world.

- He's alive.

They are married. They've
been married for 60 years,

just celebrated their
60th anniversary.

[SMITH] 60th anniversary.

[REITMAN] Yeah, it's incredible.

- A marriage made of titanium,

given everything
they went through.

[REITMAN] And that's the thing,
is marriage is complicated.

Marriage is tough.

I've been married.

I'm also divorced.

Look, I get it.

It is tough.

And I respect them,

and I also kind of want to
afford them some privacy.

But look, I went to
Denver with the movie.

I've also shown
it to Donna Rice.

[SMITH] You have?

[REITMAN] Yeah, she was actually
the first person to see it.

But I go to Denver, and Gary
and Lee watched the film.

I was just pacing outside the
theater for the entire time.

And they came out, and we went

for hot chocolates
together, their choice.

And the first thing
that Gary said was,

"Do I really talk like that?"

And his wife Lee
said, "Yes, Darling.

"That's exactly how you speak."

[SMITH] Good note.

That's very funny.

[REITMAN] Yeah, and
it's interesting.

[SMITH] Well of course,
he'd seen the book

that it was based on.

[REITMAN] He knows the story.

[SMITH] They know the story.

Again, no spoilers
for them, either.

[REITMAN] Honestly it was
almost more complicated

when I showed his
daughter the movie,

who is a character
in the film as well,

and who I got to know well.

His daughter and I have
something in common,

in that we both carry
a legacy for a living.

We were both born the
children of famous people.

And so, I told her that.

The first time, I said,
"I know what it's like.

I know what it's like
to carry that legacy."

It's a strange thing
to be born into that.

And I said, "I'm making that
movie with this in mind."

[SMITH] Let me say a
word about your dad,

since you brought up

the fact that you're the
child of a famous person.

You're dad, Ivan Reitman,

is one of the all
time great directors.

In my lifetime, I think about
three things that he did.

I think about "Stripes."

I think about "Ghostbusters."

I think about "Meatballs."

This is a director
who figured out

what to do with Bill Murray,

before Wes Anderson,
before anybody else.

I mean, amazing.

What did you learn?

You were on those sets, right?

[REITMAN] I was also on
the set of "Animal House."

[SMITH] He was a producer
of "Animal House," right?

[REITMAN] Yeah,
imagine the impact.

[SMITH] And you know what?

I've seen that movie.

It still holds up.

Well, in fact all those
movies hold up that I named.

[REITMAN] Yeah.

"Animal House" has a lot of fans

including Supreme
Court justices now.

[SMITH] Amazing, again,
how far we've come.

[REITMAN] But, everything
I know about storytelling

I learned from my father, and..

[SMITH] Is it stuff that
you observed and took in

or is it stuff that he told you?

Did he sit down and say,
these are the lessons?

[REITMAN] It's the same.

I grew up on these sets and
grew up watching film sets

and being a part of the kind
of circus that is that life,

It's things like, the
day my father said,

"You gotta come over
and watch '24.'"

And I said, "What?"

And he said, "You gotta
come over and watch '24.'"

I said, "The Kiefer
Sutherland show?"

He said, "Yes, come on over."

So I went over to
my dad's house.

He has a movie
theater in his house.

We sat down, and we watched

four episodes, four
hours, of "24."

And I said, "God, why
is this show so good?

Aren't there like a billion
shows about terrorism?"

And he said, "This isn't
a show about terrorism.

This is a show about a guy

trying to keep his
family together."

[SMITH] He got it.

[REITMAN] He said, the
location is terrorism.

He said, "Never mistake your
location for your story."

It's like pfffff.

[SMITH] He got it.

[REITMAN] And then I
go, "Oh that's right."

Juno's not about teen pregnancy.

Teen pregnancy is a location.

"Juno" is a movie
about innocence

and the moment you decide
to become an adult,

whether it's too
early or too late.

And so it's lessons like that.

Don't confuse your
location for your story.

The amount of ideas like that,

that my father has given to me,

is the greatest film school
any person could ever have.

- "Thank You for Smoking" is
based on a Chris Buckley book.

"Up in the Air" is based
on a Walter Kirn book.

In the case of "Juno,"

I know that it's... [REITMAN]
I have no original ideas.

[SMITH] It's the Diablo
Cody script, right?

[REITMAN] Yeah.

[SMITH] But I want to
come back to the casting.

You seem to be a particularly
excellent director,

as it relates to finding actors
who are the right actors.

I think about "Up in the Air,"

and I think about
"Juno," the challenge.

You have George Clooney,
who is literally

one of the biggest
stars in Hollywood,

a matinee idol,
has done so much,

and then you have Ellen
Page, on the other hand.

If this is not Ellen
Page's first major project,

it's nearly her entrance

into this level of
Hollywood success.

The difference that you must,

understanding who they
are, and how they fit,

and how you direct them, I
wish you wold reflect on that.

- I am a director
who has benefited

from the luck of
people saying yes.

George said yes.

Ellen said yes.

Charlize said yes.

These are the reason
these movies are great.

It's easy to think, you
know who'd be a good idea?

George Clooney.

It's that idea that he said yes
that was way more important.

[SMITH] You know, if
you're lucky in that case,

you get Jon Hamm,
if you're lucky.

You don't get George Clooney.

[REITMAN] I'd love to
work with Jon Hamm.

But look, Ellen Page is an
extraordinary young actress.

I had seen a movie
called "Hard Candy"

that she was phenomenal in.

I knew that she was
right for the role.

[SMITH] But she
really was not long

in the business at that point.

[REITMAN] She was not well
known, but I knew who she was,

and the people who had tracked
her knew how gifted she was.

Michael Cera I knew from

"Arrested Development"
at that point.

Jen Garner and Jason Bateman
I knew from other things.

[SMITH] A little bit again,
just talk about that.

Jen Garner, Jason Bateman,
J.K. Simmons, Michael Cera.

- Allison Janney.

Juno's parents both
have Oscars now.

Allison Janney and J.K. Simmons.

[SMITH] And J.K. Simmons,
isn't that amazing?

[REITMAN] Yeah. So...

Look, my father once said to me,

"Don't worry about
it being funny.

Your barometer for comedy
will never be as strong

as your barometer for truth.

Your job on set is to ask
yourself, do you believe it?"

And that's it. That's your job.

How the conversation
happens, when they sit down,

stand up, whether
someone gets elevated,

whether a conversation
should end sooner,

their clothes, their
hair, the room.

Ask yourself, do you believe it?

[SMITH] But that's
ultimately about execution.

[REITMAN] Uh huh.

- It's not about the choice of

whether the story is worth
telling to begin with.

I come back to the
Gary Hart story.

I'd say, you had to see
"Thank You for Smoking"

in print to think,

I can turn this into a great
film, or "Up in the Air."

"Up in the Air," of
those three, seems to me

to be the least likely
narrative to transform into,

what I think is, an
unbelievably compelling...

I happen to love that movie.

I think it's an amazing
film, but I don't know

that I would have read the
book and thought it's a movie.

[REITMAN] Well, you tell
stories 'cause you have to.

[SMITH] Yeah.

[REITMAN] They're
too hard otherwise.

They require too much sacrifice.

You give up on friends and
family to go make movies.

[SMITH] How long did it
take to make the Hart movie?

[REITMAN] I've been working
on that for three years,

but "Up in the Air,"

I worked on that script
alone for seven years.

[SMITH] Seven years.

[REITMAN] Yeah.

[SMTIH] And there's
no guarantee that

at the end of those seven years

you're gonna have a movie
you'd wanna make or could make.

[REITMAN] No, I've worked
on scripts for just as long

that have never been made.

So, you dedicate yourself
to something, because...

usually when I read a
book, or I read an article,

or I read a script
that I wanna tell,

it's because there's a question

that's been chewing away at me,
and I don't have the answer.

And then I read a book
like Walter Kirn's book,

and I go, oh, there it is.

And somehow between him and
I, I think there's the answer.

And so, I try to
follow up on it.

And, the process
of making the movie

is the process of me trying
to answer my great questions.

[SMITH] I think that's
absolutely fascinating.

We sit there and only
see the last part.

It's like the visible
part of the iceberg.

We don't see the submerged part.

But there is this whole
process that goes into it,

and, again, there's no guarantee

that any of this
is going to work.

- Well, "Up in the Air" was a
movie that, on its face value,

is about a guy
collecting air miles

and firing people for a living.

But underneath,
was this question.

Is it a given that we are
supposed to find someone

and spend the rest of
our life with them?

[SMTIH] Exactly, it's a
movie about loneliness.

That's really what it's about.

[REITMAN] And there's
this given in life

that we are gonna find something

that will be a viable pursuit

that will make
life worth living.

And in it, you have
a main character

who's presenting the argument,

no, life is better lived alone,

and the most worthy goal in life

is to collect
billions of air miles,

and that should be your pursuit.

Collecting something
meaningless, ephemera.

And he presents that
argument really well.

So much so that his
heart is broken.

And that was the idea.

I've thought myself about that.

[SMITH] You made it into a

much more compelling
story though,

than I would submit, than
it was there on the page.

You basically created
Anna Kendrick.

It feels like to me.

- I would argue that the
Kendricks created Anna Kendrick.

[SMITH] Fact check, true.

In a literal sense I
would agree with you.

But, again, it's
the eye for acting,

and for seeing who would be
right for a particular part.

I mean, that wasn't
her first film.

[REITMAN] No, she was in a
film called "Rocket Science,"

and it was spectacular,

but I saw that and wrote the
role for her because of that.

[SMITH] So we just have a
couple minutes left. What now?

What are you doin'?

Come on, spill it out.

Well, this is my second movie
in six months after "Tully,"

so sleep would sound nice.

[SMTIH] Are you looking
for something to do?

Do you typically have
things in the works?

[REITMAN] I'm always writing.

There's a couple pilots
I actually might make.

I might do something
new with Diablo.

[SMITH] You've done
some TV stuff before.

[REITMAN] Yeah I made
a show called "Casual"

that was on Hulu for four
seasons, and it's fantastic.

If you haven't seen it,
it's worth checking out.

[SMITH] Is the TV is the
new movies meme or rap now?

[REITMAN] This is why I
disagree with that idea,

and this is why I prefer movies.

Movies have an ending.

And I think an ending
is really important.

I think the whole point
of a movie is the ending.

The first thing I think
of when I think of a movie

is the ending.

[SMITH] Seriously?

- Yeah, because the
whole point of a film

is to go through experience,
and then to be shoved

out the door of the
theater by the director

and to confront the
rest of your life

through the filter of the
movie you just watched.

TV has no ending.

The ending of a TV show
is join us next week.

And then they start giving
you the trailer for next week,

and it never ends.

And it just kind of
is this ongoing saga.

TV is having coffee
with friends.

A film, it's like
a Kubrick film.

[SMTIH] So, "Casual"
wasn't a four season film

in the way that
you conceived it.

[REITMAN] No, and "Casual"
was joyful, and it was fun,

and I loved the writers,
and I loved the actors,

and I loved working on it,

but my life pursuit
is making movies.

[SMITH] I'm so happy to hear
you still like to do this

after this amount of time.

It's great. It's like
you don't get bored.

You don't get cynical.

You just seem to still be
enjoying making movies.

[REITMAN] I haven't
been doing it that long.

Give me a little toe tap.

[SMITH] Ah, you know what?

There are people who
would be happy to stop

after the great movies
that you've made.

[REITMAN] Ah,
that's kind of you.

[SMTIH] Take the win.

Mr. Reitman, a great
honor to be with you, sir.

[REITMAN] Thank you very much.

[SMTIH] Good to see
you. Congratulations.

(audience claps)

[SMTIH] We'd love to have
you join us in the studio.

Visit our website at
KLRU.org/overheard

to find invitations
to interviews,

Q and As with our
audience and guests,

and an archive of past episodes.

(relaxing pop rock music)

Funding for Overheard with Evan
Smith is provided in part by

HillCo Partners, a Texas
government affairs consultancy,

The Alice Kleberg
Reynolds Foundation,

Claire and Carl Stuart,

and by Entergy.