WEBVTT 00:01.466 --> 00:03.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Narrator] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 00:03.000 --> 00:05.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 00:05.866 --> 00:08.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy 00:08.433 --> 00:11.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and by Claire and Carl Stuart. 00:12.800 --> 00:14.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I'm Evan Smith. His debut novel, 00:14.766 --> 00:16.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The Brief Wonderous Life of Oscar Wilde 00:16.966 --> 00:19.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% was awarded the Pulitzer Prize. 00:19.000 --> 00:21.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% His two collections of short stories, Drowned, 00:21.266 --> 00:24.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and, This is How You Lose Her are each critically acclaimed. 00:24.333 --> 00:28.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% His latest book for children this time is Island Born. 00:28.433 --> 00:31.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He's Juno Diaz. This is Overheard. 00:32.433 --> 00:33.700 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Let's be honest. 00:33.700 --> 00:35.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Is this about the ability to learn 00:35.066 --> 00:37.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% or is this about the experience 00:37.066 --> 00:38.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of not having been taught properly? 00:38.600 --> 00:40.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% How have you avoided what has befallen 00:40.933 --> 00:42.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% other nations in Africa? 00:42.466 --> 00:44.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You can say that he made his own bed 00:44.233 --> 00:45.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but you caused him to sleep in it. 00:45.700 --> 00:49.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You saw a problem and overtime you took it on. 00:49.200 --> 00:52.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 00:52.166 --> 00:54.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Are you gonna run for President? 00:54.000 --> 00:56.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think I just got an F from from you actually. 00:56.200 --> 01:00.733 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% This is Overheard. 01:00.733 --> 01:02.166 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Juno Diaz welcome. 01:02.166 --> 01:03.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Thank you so much. - Very nice to be with you 01:03.400 --> 01:04.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Congratulations on the book. 01:04.966 --> 01:05.900 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Thank you. 01:05.900 --> 01:06.833 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% - But before we talk about it, 01:06.833 --> 01:08.900 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% I want to make a confession, 01:08.900 --> 01:10.133 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% that I thought to myself 01:10.133 --> 01:11.700 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% when I was getting ready to sit down with you, 01:11.700 --> 01:12.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I need to go and read 01:12.900 --> 01:15.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% all the Junot Diaz books I haven't read. 01:15.666 --> 01:16.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - That'll be quick. (audience laughter) 01:16.500 --> 01:17.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - I read Oscar Wilde, 01:17.900 --> 01:19.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and I read the collection of short stories, 01:19.266 --> 01:22.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% surely Drown was published in the mid-90s. 01:23.500 --> 01:24.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Well, I know that you're not exactly 01:24.766 --> 01:26.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% George Carol Oates, publishing a book 01:26.900 --> 01:28.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% every five minutes, but at the same time 01:28.500 --> 01:31.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I thought, well 23 years is a long time, 22 years 01:31.200 --> 01:33.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% there must be more books, no. 01:33.900 --> 01:37.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, I take it easy. (audience laughter) 01:37.800 --> 01:40.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I mean, this is not a criticism, it's an observation. 01:40.033 --> 01:41.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - I don't mind criticism. 01:41.566 --> 01:42.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - No, it's an observation, I mean, you are writing 01:42.866 --> 01:46.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% on a pace that is really atypical for successful 01:46.300 --> 01:48.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and acclaimed authors, people tend to produce more 01:50.000 --> 01:51.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and I just wonder if this is a deliberate 01:51.300 --> 01:52.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% strategy on your part to wait until you have 01:52.500 --> 01:54.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a book to write, resisting the pressure 01:54.800 --> 01:58.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to write more, or do you struggle, do you 01:58.033 --> 01:59.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% wish you would be publishing more if you 01:59.300 --> 02:01.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% could only figure out a way to do it. 02:01.233 --> 02:03.333 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% - Unfortunately, it's both. 02:06.200 --> 02:08.533 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% It takes me a long time to get a book that really 02:08.533 --> 02:12.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is gonna speak to the deepest part of me. 02:12.033 --> 02:13.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% In a way, like I have to-- 02:13.900 --> 02:16.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Books have to not become friends, 02:16.133 --> 02:18.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% they don't even have to become lovers, 02:18.366 --> 02:20.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a book has to become my family in a weird way 02:20.933 --> 02:22.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% before I can get to it, and it takes 02:22.733 --> 02:25.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% a long time to make a family, as everyone knows 02:25.333 --> 02:27.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And then at the other side of it, 02:27.100 --> 02:28.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I always wish I could do more, 02:28.966 --> 02:31.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I always wish I was writing more, but ultimately 02:31.033 --> 02:34.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it seems like whatever part of me is creative 02:34.000 --> 02:36.666 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% needs a lot more than most folks. 02:36.666 --> 02:39.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It takes me a long time to get to this stuff. 02:39.600 --> 02:41.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And also, your books are so personal, 02:41.300 --> 02:42.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and they're personal in a way that even 02:42.700 --> 02:44.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% when you say that about most authors, 02:44.066 --> 02:46.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% well this book is really vaguely about you, 02:46.833 --> 02:48.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but your books are really personal. 02:48.900 --> 02:52.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The themes in these books are really connected to you 02:52.033 --> 02:55.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the characters are connected to you, or are you, right? 02:55.733 --> 02:58.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, I mean they're not very autobiographical, 02:58.466 --> 03:01.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% as will soon be revealed, but they're very personal. 03:01.633 --> 03:02.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - But they seem autobiographical 03:02.900 --> 03:04.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in the sense of details, you know, 03:04.266 --> 03:06.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% New Jersey shows up in these books a lot. 03:06.766 --> 03:08.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The Dominican Republic shows up in these books a lot, 03:08.433 --> 03:10.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the immigrant experience shows up in these books a lot. 03:10.633 --> 03:12.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the fact is the narrator of Oscar Wilde, 03:12.433 --> 03:13.666 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Yunior de Las Casas, 03:13.666 --> 03:15.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who comes through a number of your books. 03:15.400 --> 03:17.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I mean, that is effectively your alter ego 03:17.133 --> 03:19.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% for the purposes of these books, right? 03:19.433 --> 03:24.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I would just kind of parse personal and autobiographical. 03:24.433 --> 03:28.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There's a lot of stuff that is deeply important to us 03:28.866 --> 03:30.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and isn't necessarily a photocopy. 03:30.866 --> 03:34.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I tend to give my characters my syllabus and my clothes, 03:34.733 --> 03:36.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% or my resume and my clothes. 03:36.700 --> 03:38.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But just because someone is rocking your resume 03:38.633 --> 03:41.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and they're rocking your outfit, they're not you. 03:43.133 --> 03:46.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% It's interesting because I've-- 03:46.000 --> 03:47.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% There's stuff about my life 03:47.200 --> 03:51.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that's so not like my characters. 03:51.100 --> 03:54.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I chip parts of myself to make these characters, 03:54.300 --> 03:55.800 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% but there's still... 03:55.800 --> 03:58.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And I'm not just saying that to be cute or to be coy. 03:59.066 --> 04:01.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I, for example, grew up with two 04:01.933 --> 04:05.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% absolutely out of control, amazing sisters 04:05.033 --> 04:07.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that are a huge part of my life. 04:07.500 --> 04:09.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And I've never written about them 04:09.133 --> 04:11.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because they've asked me never to write about them. 04:11.333 --> 04:15.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And without my sisters, I don't make any sense. 04:15.500 --> 04:17.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% No one can understand me without my sisters. 04:17.600 --> 04:18.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - So if you're not showing us that 04:18.900 --> 04:20.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% then you're really not showing us you, 04:20.166 --> 04:21.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% as far as these books go. 04:21.633 --> 04:23.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% So we shouldn't take any random sister 04:23.566 --> 04:25.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% in one of these short stories 04:25.066 --> 04:26.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that is in a collection or published in a magazine, 04:26.533 --> 04:30.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or Lola in Oscar Wilde, Oscar's sister. 04:30.133 --> 04:31.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% We shouldn't take that to be 04:31.800 --> 04:34.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% this is a stand in for my sister. 04:34.133 --> 04:36.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's a simple minded view of the world. 04:36.033 --> 04:37.533 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - No, no. 04:37.533 --> 04:39.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I just say the day you meet my sisters in literature, 04:39.866 --> 04:41.900 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% you will know. 04:41.900 --> 04:44.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I promise you. There will be no doubt. 04:45.833 --> 04:47.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - So let's talk about these books. 04:47.366 --> 04:50.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% So first of all, a children's book. An interesting decision. 04:50.766 --> 04:51.600 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% Why? 04:52.733 --> 04:54.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - I'll do a couple of reasons. 04:54.333 --> 04:56.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I wish I could say that they're strategic reasons. 04:56.166 --> 04:57.833 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% They're not. 04:57.833 --> 05:00.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% One of them, of course, is the tremendous need. 05:01.800 --> 05:05.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I've been kind of a published writer now for, 05:05.266 --> 05:07.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you know, it's been 25 years, 26 years. 05:09.033 --> 05:10.900 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Sorry, 22 years. 05:10.900 --> 05:13.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And one of the thing that happens is 05:13.433 --> 05:15.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% all the time people come up to you and they say, 05:15.266 --> 05:17.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "Hey, listen. I've got a family. 05:17.400 --> 05:20.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "I ain't reading your books to my family. 05:20.433 --> 05:22.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "Can you write some kid's books for me?" 05:22.466 --> 05:25.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% People keep saying that and eventually you realize 05:25.033 --> 05:26.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% there's a tremendous need. 05:26.533 --> 05:28.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Also, I'm one of those people 05:28.333 --> 05:30.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% who never had kids of their own, 05:30.366 --> 05:32.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and so I'm surrounded by all my friends' kids, 05:32.666 --> 05:33.633 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% all my godchildren. 05:33.633 --> 05:34.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I have six godchildren. 05:36.000 --> 05:38.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% When your friends foist off their kids on you, 05:38.433 --> 05:41.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I'm always happy, but when they find out you're a writer 05:41.566 --> 05:45.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% they're like, "Oh, you write? Write me a book." 05:45.233 --> 05:46.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% (laughter) "Make it snappy." 05:46.833 --> 05:49.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - So this is like on demand? Is that how this goes? 05:49.533 --> 05:53.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, on demand with me works on a paleolithic level. 05:53.600 --> 05:55.633 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - But still. But still. 05:56.733 --> 05:58.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You could write anything at this point. 05:58.966 --> 06:00.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You're successful enough, you're well known enough. 06:00.533 --> 06:03.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I bet the world demands stuff of you at all levels. 06:03.466 --> 06:06.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's a little bit like that all cats have four legs, 06:06.200 --> 06:08.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but all things with four legs are not cats. 06:08.200 --> 06:10.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% All children's book authors are authors, 06:10.466 --> 06:13.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but not all authors are children's book authors. 06:13.100 --> 06:16.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Not every author is situated to write a children's book. 06:16.466 --> 06:18.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They don't have it in them. They wouldn't know how to do it. 06:18.266 --> 06:19.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They wouldn't have the touch for it. 06:19.500 --> 06:20.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% But you apparently do. 06:20.700 --> 06:21.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I mean, I can say, having read this book, 06:21.966 --> 06:23.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% this feels absolutely like a book 06:23.500 --> 06:27.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% if I had small children now-- used to-- 06:27.000 --> 06:28.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I would be all over this book. 06:28.466 --> 06:30.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I appreciate it. It took a while. 06:30.333 --> 06:34.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And again, when you have the arbiters 06:34.933 --> 06:36.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that are little children, 06:36.566 --> 06:38.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% they will let you know what's whack. 06:38.300 --> 06:39.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - They're the toughest critics, right? 06:39.600 --> 06:41.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, they puke on me. (laughter) 06:41.700 --> 06:43.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I would describe puking on you as a bad review. 06:43.866 --> 06:45.200 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Yeah, it was terrible. 06:45.200 --> 06:46.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - It would be a terrible review. 06:46.866 --> 06:48.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The main character of this book is Lola. 06:48.766 --> 06:50.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% She's Afro-Latin. She's in school. 06:50.833 --> 06:53.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Her teacher says to her class-- It's a class of immigrants. 06:53.933 --> 06:55.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I mean, one of the things I love about this is 06:55.833 --> 06:59.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it begins with this idea of a class of immigrants 06:59.733 --> 07:02.666 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% is normal, it's America. 07:02.666 --> 07:03.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Everybody is from some place. 07:03.833 --> 07:06.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And the assignment given to this class is, 07:07.466 --> 07:10.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it's draw a picture of where you're from. 07:11.433 --> 07:15.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Only Lola's problem is she came from the Dominican Republic. 07:15.066 --> 07:16.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - From the island. - From the island. 07:16.800 --> 07:20.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And she knows where she's from, 07:20.633 --> 07:22.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% but she has no memories of it. 07:23.566 --> 07:25.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And she then begins, over the course of this book, 07:25.000 --> 07:27.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to talk to members of her family, other people she knows, 07:27.333 --> 07:29.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who, like her, are from the island, 07:29.400 --> 07:31.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and says, "Help me understand what it was like." 07:31.433 --> 07:33.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And she gets these images from these conversations 07:33.600 --> 07:36.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that become the basis for her work. 07:36.100 --> 07:39.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's a pretty straightforward idea. Kids can understand it. 07:39.333 --> 07:41.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% They'll see themselves in it. 07:41.433 --> 07:43.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But it's really about so much more. 07:43.500 --> 07:45.000 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 07:45.000 --> 07:46.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I mean, the one thing all of us remember about being young 07:46.733 --> 07:51.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is that we all have to confront the fact 07:51.266 --> 07:54.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that we can't remember our origins, period. 07:54.333 --> 07:57.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% We hear stories about our childhood, we see pictures. 07:57.966 --> 08:00.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's very uncanny, because we see pictures of ourself 08:00.633 --> 08:02.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but we have no member of being one, 08:02.733 --> 08:04.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% or six months, or anything. 08:04.533 --> 08:05.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% When you're an immigrant, 08:05.766 --> 08:09.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that what we call universal experience 08:09.133 --> 08:12.033 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% becomes deeply charged. 08:12.033 --> 08:13.500 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% It becomes very, very charged. 08:13.500 --> 08:15.166 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% The question of origins takes on 08:15.166 --> 08:17.933 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% an entirely different valence. 08:19.366 --> 08:23.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You know, we all are curious about where we come from. 08:23.033 --> 08:28.033 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% - This is a very, very deep book. This is not Hop on Pop. 08:28.900 --> 08:30.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% This is a very, very deep book, 08:30.633 --> 08:33.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% wrapped inside a book that is for children. 08:33.300 --> 08:34.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And it says something about the larger world 08:34.700 --> 08:35.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% in which we live in. 08:35.600 --> 08:36.433 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Well, yeah. 08:37.900 --> 08:42.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The history of how the west deals with immigration, 08:45.633 --> 08:48.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and imagines its immigrants, 08:48.900 --> 08:53.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is a very problematic and troubled history. 08:53.500 --> 08:57.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And this is something that has bedeviled the west-- 08:57.066 --> 08:59.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% not only the west-- and continues to bedevil people. 08:59.900 --> 09:01.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% In the United States, of course, 09:01.400 --> 09:05.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% it's taken on the most malign turn that we've seen 09:05.533 --> 09:08.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% at least in the 50 years that I've been alive. 09:08.566 --> 09:11.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% These days the concept of immigration 09:11.900 --> 09:13.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% has been so weaponized, 09:13.833 --> 09:16.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and has been sort of conscripted 09:16.433 --> 09:20.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% by very strong white supremacist elements in this country 09:20.533 --> 09:22.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% as being the wedge issue. 09:22.866 --> 09:25.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And therefore the right, or even to recognize 09:25.566 --> 09:30.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that fact that most people are descended from immigrants. 09:30.433 --> 09:32.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% If you're not fully indigenous, 09:32.966 --> 09:35.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% if you're not a person fully of African descent 09:35.933 --> 09:39.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who was brought here because of slavery, 09:39.466 --> 09:43.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% chances are you're an immigrant, 09:43.166 --> 09:44.700 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% you're descended from immigrants. 09:44.700 --> 09:47.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And so this should not be this kind of weird, alien, 09:47.233 --> 09:50.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% hyper-charged, contested thing, 09:50.100 --> 09:52.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but there's politics in this country, 09:52.233 --> 09:54.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% very malign and dangerous politics 09:54.100 --> 09:56.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that have made what is the most normal part 09:56.900 --> 10:00.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of what we call the American experience 10:00.500 --> 10:02.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% deeply, deeply threatening. 10:02.533 --> 10:05.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - You use the phrase "strong white supremacist streak." 10:05.400 --> 10:08.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I wouldn't like it if it were only strong white supremacists 10:08.933 --> 10:11.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who were appropriating this argument. 10:11.866 --> 10:13.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% The problem in my mind, Junot, 10:13.366 --> 10:15.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is that it's not just strong white supremacists, 10:15.566 --> 10:18.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that this has actually been normalized. 10:18.466 --> 10:21.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's by non-strong non-white supremacists. 10:21.066 --> 10:23.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - But I would argue white supremacy is normalized. 10:23.500 --> 10:26.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% When I say white supremacists I don't mean people in hoods. 10:26.166 --> 10:27.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - You don't mean just the guy 10:27.100 --> 10:29.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% with torches in Charlottesville. 10:29.066 --> 10:31.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I mean that this is something, a side of politics, 10:31.566 --> 10:33.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that we've all internalized. 10:33.200 --> 10:36.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You cannot be alive in this world 10:36.166 --> 10:39.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% without your political construction 10:39.300 --> 10:42.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% including strands of white supremacy. 10:42.166 --> 10:44.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% You don't need white people 10:44.000 --> 10:46.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% for white supremacy to be alive and well. 10:46.633 --> 10:48.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You can be in a country with no white people 10:48.166 --> 10:50.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and white supremacy is alive and well, 10:50.066 --> 10:53.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% in very different permutations. 10:53.266 --> 10:55.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And I do think that this is part of 10:55.966 --> 10:57.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% what we haven't been able to do 10:57.766 --> 10:59.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because we haven't been able to confront it. 10:59.900 --> 11:02.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The way that Germany had to de-Nazify itself, 11:02.933 --> 11:04.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% an actual movement, a process, 11:04.966 --> 11:07.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the United States has never addressed 11:07.833 --> 11:10.266 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% how dedicated it is 11:10.266 --> 11:12.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to some of the logics of white supremacy. 11:12.366 --> 11:14.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And one day we will have to have that reckoning. 11:14.533 --> 11:16.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We all have to purge it from ourselves. 11:16.300 --> 11:18.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well the population trends in this country, 11:18.466 --> 11:20.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% we happen to sit in the state of Texas 11:20.033 --> 11:22.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in which population trends are heading faster 11:22.133 --> 11:25.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in the direction that the country's population trends are. 11:25.333 --> 11:27.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I mean, really, it's both an explanation 11:27.266 --> 11:29.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and also a warning about this, 11:29.066 --> 11:31.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because it is just that very trend in population 11:31.966 --> 11:34.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that is causing people to demonize or weaponize 11:34.700 --> 11:36.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% the notion of otherness. 11:36.400 --> 11:37.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I mean, in some ways, 11:37.833 --> 11:40.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% immigration is more of a policy or political construct, 11:40.100 --> 11:41.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% but what this really is about is 11:41.333 --> 11:42.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% you look different from me, 11:42.666 --> 11:44.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you have a different perspective from me, 11:44.033 --> 11:45.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you come from a different place to me, 11:45.466 --> 11:48.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and that's been turned into this big bludgeon. 11:48.266 --> 11:49.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Yeah, or for a lot of it, 11:49.500 --> 11:50.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% think about a lot of the people 11:50.866 --> 11:52.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who are being demonized and stigmatized 11:52.900 --> 11:54.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% have been in this country 11:54.200 --> 11:56.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% since this country was this country. 11:56.066 --> 11:58.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And it has almost nothing to do, 11:58.600 --> 12:00.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% despite what everyone argues with, 12:00.166 --> 12:02.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% it has almost nothing really to do with immigration. 12:02.566 --> 12:05.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It has to do straight up with racial animus. 12:05.866 --> 12:07.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And that's really what it is. 12:07.633 --> 12:10.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% That's the ruse, the excuse, that it's immigration, 12:10.700 --> 12:13.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but it's just the praxis of racial animus. 12:13.333 --> 12:14.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - This is not a public safety issue 12:14.600 --> 12:16.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% as much as it may be made out to be one. 12:16.200 --> 12:19.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% This is not an economics issue. We know what this is. 12:19.133 --> 12:20.533 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% So all of your books, 12:21.733 --> 12:23.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Drowned, which we said, is '95, '96, 12:23.900 --> 12:28.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Oscar Wilde, which is 2007, 12:28.366 --> 12:30.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and This is How You Lose Her, which is 2012. 12:30.666 --> 12:34.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% All of those books deal with this narrative through line 12:34.433 --> 12:36.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% of the immigrant experience, 12:36.900 --> 12:39.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of the changing face of America, all of that, 12:39.666 --> 12:41.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and characters grappling with all of that. 12:41.433 --> 12:43.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% This has pretty much been a consistent bit of you. 12:43.133 --> 12:45.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Sure, and characters dealing with what it means 12:45.233 --> 12:46.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to be of African descent. 12:49.166 --> 12:50.866 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% That's very accurate. 12:50.866 --> 12:53.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And I also have kind of a sideline on 12:54.700 --> 12:56.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% people in crazy relationships. 12:56.966 --> 12:58.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Well I was about to say, 12:58.300 --> 13:00.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you are not the author I would turn to 13:00.633 --> 13:03.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to feel good about any romantic relationship. 13:03.166 --> 13:04.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Though I would argue, 13:04.600 --> 13:07.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and allow me to defend those of us 13:07.033 --> 13:08.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% who have been in dysfunctional relationships. 13:08.966 --> 13:13.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I would argue that no one should ever 13:13.800 --> 13:15.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% turn to literature for self help. 13:17.066 --> 13:19.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Well that's stipulated. I don't disagree with that. 13:19.866 --> 13:22.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Literature, in fact, I would argue 13:22.633 --> 13:24.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% reading about what it means to be human, 13:24.733 --> 13:27.600 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% about how bad we are at intimacy, 13:27.600 --> 13:30.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% in fact is a good way to... 13:30.700 --> 13:32.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Evan] Is it pallative? It's cleansing? 13:32.133 --> 13:33.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - I would argue it's a good way. 13:33.633 --> 13:36.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It gives us a space to think about ourselves and intimacy. 13:36.766 --> 13:38.233 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% Most of the time we're just asked 13:38.233 --> 13:41.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to buy into the fairy tale romance. 13:41.233 --> 13:45.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Literature is like, "Mm. Me cracked." 13:45.666 --> 13:48.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - "Let me tell you how this really is." 13:48.333 --> 13:51.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - You're like, "Come on in." 13:51.033 --> 13:53.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% 20 years later you're like, "You ruined my life." 13:55.400 --> 13:58.066 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% - Can I go back to ask you about this 13:58.066 --> 14:01.933 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% idea of Yunior, the narrator of the Oscar Wilde book, 14:01.933 --> 14:04.566 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% but who has been really a feature 14:04.566 --> 14:05.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in many of the things you have written. 14:05.800 --> 14:07.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% In fact goes back, as I understand, 14:07.066 --> 14:09.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the story goes back to your application 14:09.200 --> 14:11.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to the MFA program at Cornell, right? 14:11.400 --> 14:13.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yes. I was writing about him even before that. 14:13.666 --> 14:16.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - But you go back even before you were a published author 14:16.666 --> 14:19.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in the sense that we know you to be a published author. 14:19.033 --> 14:21.033 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Why go that route? 14:22.133 --> 14:23.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, that's a really good question. 14:25.633 --> 14:26.833 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% Despite what it might seem, 14:26.833 --> 14:28.900 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% it's not as if I can't make stuff up. 14:30.333 --> 14:32.866 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% I could have had five or six different alter egos. 14:32.866 --> 14:37.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% What I decided was what really interested me 14:37.266 --> 14:42.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% was this observation I had very early on 14:43.400 --> 14:45.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% about how many masks we all wear. 14:45.766 --> 14:49.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I was this kid who was this immigrant kid, 14:49.333 --> 14:51.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Dominican, kid of African descent. 14:51.133 --> 14:52.366 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - You got to New Jersey. 14:52.366 --> 14:55.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You came to this country to Patterson. 14:55.133 --> 14:56.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Nope. Right outside of Perth Amboy. 14:56.666 --> 14:58.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Outside of Perth Amboy, New Jersey. 14:58.633 --> 15:01.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Oscar is in Patterson, right? Oscar Wilde was in Patterson. 15:01.266 --> 15:03.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There's one of the ways in which this diverges a little bit. 15:03.233 --> 15:05.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, P-Town, man. It's another world up there. 15:08.633 --> 15:09.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - How old were you got to New Jersey? 15:09.800 --> 15:11.266 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Six. 15:11.266 --> 15:15.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% What became very clear to me was that I had all these faces, 15:15.800 --> 15:19.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and so few people knew them all. 15:19.400 --> 15:21.666 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I was in a neighborhood, 15:21.666 --> 15:24.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and that neighborhood was real particular. 15:24.333 --> 15:26.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I grew up in an African-American neighborhood 15:26.833 --> 15:30.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% with a lot of working class folks of color, 15:30.033 --> 15:31.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and that was real particular then. 15:31.566 --> 15:34.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I got bussed into, with everybody in the neighborhood, 15:34.166 --> 15:37.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% into a predominantly white school, but on top of that 15:37.000 --> 15:40.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I was tested into the gifted and talented program. 15:40.866 --> 15:42.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% So I'm in the gifted and talented program thinking, 15:42.900 --> 15:45.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "None of these people have ever been in my neighborhood." 15:45.266 --> 15:46.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I'm in my neighborhood thinking, 15:46.833 --> 15:48.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "IF you all could see gifted and talented, 15:48.600 --> 15:51.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "you'd be laughing at me all day." 15:51.066 --> 15:53.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - You get it coming and going. That's it. 15:53.166 --> 15:54.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Then I started working. 15:54.433 --> 15:56.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Typical working poor, working class jobs. 15:56.566 --> 15:59.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Worked in a steel mill. Worked delivering pool tables. 15:59.166 --> 16:01.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm in college classes being a super nerd, 16:01.833 --> 16:03.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% delivering pool tables. 16:03.100 --> 16:04.300 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - At Rutgers. 16:04.300 --> 16:06.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And you just have all these faces, 16:06.333 --> 16:08.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and you have all these people you are. 16:08.433 --> 16:10.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And I thought, "You know what? 16:10.000 --> 16:12.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "I can write about one person, 16:12.133 --> 16:15.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "and this cat has so many faces and so many sides 16:15.800 --> 16:20.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "that this person could fill four, five, six books." 16:20.166 --> 16:21.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And that's what I thought, I thought, "Let me try this." 16:21.766 --> 16:24.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well, it's amazingly effective. 16:24.500 --> 16:27.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's not novel in the sense that others have... 16:27.200 --> 16:28.400 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - (mumbling) 16:28.400 --> 16:30.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well, no, no. The point is that it's not-- 16:30.500 --> 16:33.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% This construct is one that others have used in the past, 16:33.500 --> 16:35.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but it's particularly effective, and the fact that it's-- 16:35.766 --> 16:39.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Again, we may mistake it to be a stand-in for you. 16:39.166 --> 16:41.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It nonetheless puts us in the mind of you. 16:41.533 --> 16:44.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well it's important for fiction 16:44.600 --> 16:48.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to have what Foucault called truth effects. 16:48.133 --> 16:50.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I write the lie that tells the truth. 16:50.466 --> 16:52.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% There's no accident that books 16:52.633 --> 16:54.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% live inside of your nervous system. 16:54.833 --> 16:56.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The only other thing that lives inside of your 16:56.700 --> 17:00.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% nervous system as powerfully as art is the real world. 17:00.366 --> 17:02.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And so it's real easy for us to think 17:02.233 --> 17:05.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that something that's art is actually true, 17:05.100 --> 17:09.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because the same mechanism we're using to interpret the real 17:09.233 --> 17:11.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% we're using to interpret our books. 17:11.066 --> 17:12.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Let me come back to this for a second 17:12.500 --> 17:14.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and then I want to go to MIT, where you teach. 17:14.600 --> 17:17.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I want to talk about what you see in the context of-- 17:17.333 --> 17:18.266 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - My youth. 17:18.266 --> 17:19.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Teaching the next generation. 17:21.200 --> 17:24.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% A children's book, in the sense of a literal book, 17:24.666 --> 17:28.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% like ink on paper, is very old school. 17:28.233 --> 17:30.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% The kids who are coming up today 17:30.966 --> 17:32.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% have a very different set of habits 17:32.966 --> 17:35.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in terms of the content they consume, 17:35.033 --> 17:37.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the platforms that they are on. 17:37.700 --> 17:40.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Do you worry that a book like this, 17:40.166 --> 17:41.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% at the end of the day, 17:41.400 --> 17:44.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is not targeting the audience that exists? 17:45.866 --> 17:49.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I worry all the time about literary culture. 17:50.800 --> 17:53.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - People still read the New Yorker. 17:53.000 --> 17:55.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Many of the short stories we know 17:55.466 --> 17:57.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% under the banners of your two collections 17:57.733 --> 18:00.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% appear in print before they were collected. 18:00.900 --> 18:03.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But those guys are the exception, right? 18:05.200 --> 18:07.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - We live in a society where 18:07.400 --> 18:12.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% if you haven't had a lifelong training in reading, 18:14.266 --> 18:17.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% it is almost impossible to resist 18:17.300 --> 18:20.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the enticements of this accelerated society. 18:20.500 --> 18:22.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I mean, I don't blame young people 18:22.533 --> 18:25.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who can only watch videos on YouTube, 18:25.566 --> 18:28.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who never learned to be able to carve out 18:28.066 --> 18:31.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% two hours of space every day to do some reading. 18:31.266 --> 18:32.633 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% How can they? 18:32.633 --> 18:37.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% We've unleashed corporations with endless funds 18:37.033 --> 18:39.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% on their imaginaries unchecked. 18:39.200 --> 18:41.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% How in the world is a child 18:41.333 --> 18:45.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% gonna be able to compete against Google, against Apple, 18:45.833 --> 18:48.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% against all of these massive corporations 18:48.333 --> 18:50.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that take away all their time? 18:50.266 --> 18:54.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The very fact that young people read as much as they do 18:54.100 --> 18:57.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% shows you how robust and healthy literary culture are. 18:57.300 --> 18:58.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - So you're optimistic about this. 18:58.233 --> 18:59.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - It's not that I'm optimistic. 18:59.533 --> 19:01.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's that I want to recognize something 19:01.133 --> 19:04.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that in another world just like this one, 19:04.133 --> 19:06.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% we're not doing as well as we're doing. 19:06.033 --> 19:08.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We're always in kind of the doom mode 19:08.500 --> 19:10.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% because we don't recognize that 19:10.233 --> 19:12.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% despite the trillions of dollars 19:12.500 --> 19:14.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that are directed at people like me, and you, and younger, 19:14.966 --> 19:17.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to tell you not to read, people are still reading. 19:17.833 --> 19:21.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And that's heroic. We should have lost a long time ago. 19:21.266 --> 19:23.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - So you actually think that the next generation 19:23.333 --> 19:26.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% will ultimately stay with us as far as this goes. 19:26.066 --> 19:27.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - It's not up for me to say. 19:27.333 --> 19:30.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I just want to recognize the fact that this form, 19:30.566 --> 19:33.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% for all of its clunkiness and its old worldness 19:33.533 --> 19:37.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% has got a lot of champions, and that's a good thing. 19:37.100 --> 19:39.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - So go from the age of the kid 19:39.533 --> 19:41.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% who might be reading this book, 19:41.833 --> 19:43.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to the age of the kid you teach, 19:45.300 --> 19:48.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% you teach creative writing or fiction writing at MIT. 19:49.933 --> 19:52.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% These are students of a certain age 19:52.433 --> 19:54.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who have made the decision, they've opt-- 19:54.166 --> 19:56.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I mean, it is you. Who wouldn't take your class? 19:56.766 --> 19:58.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Actually, most of them don't know anything about me. 19:58.966 --> 20:00.200 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% - Seriously? - Yeah. 20:00.200 --> 20:02.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well, I did think to myself, "It is MIT." 20:02.600 --> 20:03.800 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - It's not just that. 20:03.800 --> 20:05.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% My students-- Look, let me get it straight. 20:05.866 --> 20:07.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I teach at a select college. 20:07.800 --> 20:10.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Some of you may have young people at select college. 20:10.433 --> 20:14.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% This is the one percent of the planet educationally. 20:14.000 --> 20:16.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Just like the rest of every young person, 20:16.833 --> 20:19.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% all they have on them is pressure. 20:19.400 --> 20:21.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% If you really think these kids 20:21.566 --> 20:24.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% have all this spare time to be snowflakes, 20:24.433 --> 20:26.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% you're a crazy conservative. 20:26.566 --> 20:29.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% These people, these young people, 20:29.333 --> 20:31.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% are under enormous amounts of pressure. 20:31.666 --> 20:35.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They're looking for classes that fit their darn schedule. 20:35.533 --> 20:37.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - It's as simple as that. 20:37.566 --> 20:38.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You don't think they're thinking, 20:38.800 --> 20:39.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "I've got to take that Junot Diaz class." 20:39.866 --> 20:41.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Hey, some of them might. 20:41.133 --> 20:42.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I don't want to be universalizing. 20:42.200 --> 20:43.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% But I'm trying to tell you, 20:43.466 --> 20:45.966 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% my students, even at a place like MIT, 20:45.966 --> 20:47.566 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% there's a struggle for survival. 20:49.133 --> 20:52.200 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% We've not made universities to be what they should be. 20:52.200 --> 20:53.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They're under enormous amount of pressure. 20:53.966 --> 20:56.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% So I'll get my young people, and they come in. 20:56.233 --> 20:58.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And some of them might know who I am. 20:58.100 --> 21:01.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Most of them are like, "Get teaching," 21:01.066 --> 21:04.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and it's time to get busy. 21:05.333 --> 21:07.333 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% - How do you find them, generally speaking, as students? 21:07.333 --> 21:10.133 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% Are they open-minded, are they creative thinkers, 21:10.133 --> 21:11.300 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% are they out of the box people, 21:11.300 --> 21:12.766 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% are they pretty conventional? 21:12.766 --> 21:15.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% What's your read as a rule about these students. 21:15.433 --> 21:19.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - They have done their utmost best 21:19.400 --> 21:21.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% not to let this country poison them. 21:21.700 --> 21:22.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% That's my take on them. 21:23.933 --> 21:26.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Listen, ain't nobody in the world 21:26.033 --> 21:28.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% love a place like an immigrant. 21:28.133 --> 21:30.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Despite what you've heard. 21:30.233 --> 21:33.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% At the same way, nobody loves a religion like a convert. 21:35.666 --> 21:38.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Nobody loves their place like an immigrant. 21:38.033 --> 21:43.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% But these kids, to be a young person in this country now, 21:43.800 --> 21:45.366 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% is nigh impossible. 21:45.366 --> 21:47.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I don't have the strength and the heart, 21:47.500 --> 21:49.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% if somebody woke me up and I was suddenly 12 again. 21:49.866 --> 21:51.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Can you say a few words about why that is? 21:51.333 --> 21:53.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I think we know instinctively, but why do you say that? 21:53.833 --> 21:56.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Because young people are basically weaned, 21:56.466 --> 21:58.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% they're raised every single day 21:58.766 --> 22:01.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to think that the only things that matter 22:01.200 --> 22:06.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% are competition, accumulation, and creating hierarchies. 22:07.366 --> 22:08.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And they are told that no matter what, 22:08.633 --> 22:10.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the future will be darker, 22:10.300 --> 22:12.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and less promising than it was for your parents, 22:12.733 --> 22:15.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and if you make one mistake 22:15.300 --> 22:17.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you will fall off the economic ladder 22:17.066 --> 22:18.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and you will never return. 22:18.566 --> 22:20.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% This is a society that teaches them 22:20.333 --> 22:22.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that there are no safety nets, 22:22.200 --> 22:26.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that the rich can eat everything all day long, 22:26.833 --> 22:30.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and everyone else is morally repugnant, 22:30.233 --> 22:32.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and should therefore be scorned. 22:32.333 --> 22:36.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And it's deeply scary, dystopian world that they live in. 22:36.866 --> 22:38.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Do you think, Junot, that the message 22:38.500 --> 22:39.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% is out of sync with the reality, 22:39.900 --> 22:41.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or is the problem that the message 22:41.333 --> 22:43.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is entirely in sync with the reality? 22:43.166 --> 22:45.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well, we've certainly got a lot of politicians 22:45.666 --> 22:48.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% trying to make this dystopian message a permanent reality. 22:48.966 --> 22:51.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But we live in a very hard country. 22:51.733 --> 22:54.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's the richest country on the planet, 22:54.866 --> 22:58.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and it is on some Hunger Games things. 22:58.166 --> 23:01.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And I think young people know. They ain't stupid. 23:01.633 --> 23:02.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They look around and they're like, 23:02.866 --> 23:05.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "Wow. This country will stamp me out." 23:05.466 --> 23:07.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And they're worried. And they're worried. 23:07.233 --> 23:09.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I come in, I'm an artist, 23:09.233 --> 23:12.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and you try to open up other windows, 23:12.266 --> 23:13.633 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and try to remind them 23:13.633 --> 23:16.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% there's other futures that are possible. 23:16.133 --> 23:20.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - The theory of teaching students, or anybody, to write, 23:20.166 --> 23:22.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% is make them read people 23:22.466 --> 23:24.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who they admire or who they'll like, 23:24.500 --> 23:27.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and the more you read, the better you'll become 23:27.800 --> 23:30.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% at thinking about how you want to express yourself. 23:30.866 --> 23:31.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - The conservatory model. 23:31.866 --> 23:33.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - That's generally your theory. 23:33.133 --> 23:34.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well, no, it's the conservatory model. 23:34.266 --> 23:36.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We have been teaching music forever 23:36.700 --> 23:39.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in the conservatory model, centuries. 23:39.066 --> 23:40.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You're a musician, you want to be a musician. 23:40.433 --> 23:42.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You come in, we expose you to music. 23:42.733 --> 23:44.533 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% You practice. Repeat. 23:44.533 --> 23:47.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% If you've got excellent abilities and you're real lucky, 23:47.433 --> 23:48.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% you can become a musician. 23:48.900 --> 23:50.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The rest of us have a good time for a few years 23:50.800 --> 23:52.300 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% and then move on to other things. 23:52.300 --> 23:53.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - You're good with that model, generally speaking. 23:53.833 --> 23:56.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Well, it's been a highly successful model. 23:56.166 --> 23:57.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - So who would you teach? 23:57.433 --> 23:59.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% If you're trying to give young people 23:59.766 --> 24:04.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% a perspective on the best contemporary writing-- 24:04.300 --> 24:05.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Or maybe not contemporary. 24:05.833 --> 24:08.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Maybe it's that they have to go back to the old masters. 24:08.266 --> 24:11.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Who do you say, "I think this is absolutely canon, 24:11.300 --> 24:12.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% "canonical work?" 24:14.733 --> 24:16.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It's the approach always with art. 24:16.666 --> 24:19.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% As we know, art doesn't purport to be religion. 24:19.366 --> 24:22.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Our Bibles, and Qurans, and the Talmud 24:22.466 --> 24:24.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% all claim to be for everyone. 24:25.366 --> 24:26.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But books are different. Art is different. 24:26.933 --> 24:28.333 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Art is real particular. 24:28.333 --> 24:30.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I tend to have the scattershot approach, 24:30.033 --> 24:31.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% the shotgun approach. 24:31.233 --> 24:32.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I throw a ton of stuff at my students 24:32.933 --> 24:34.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because you never know what's going to stick 24:34.166 --> 24:35.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% with any individual student. 24:35.400 --> 24:36.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And so the answer may be individualized 24:36.933 --> 24:37.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% based on the student. 24:37.833 --> 24:39.866 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - I'll just throw 12... 24:39.866 --> 24:41.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Let's say in a week I'll give them access 24:41.966 --> 24:45.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to a dozen options, and be like, "Hey, listen. 24:45.066 --> 24:47.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "Roam around. See if you find anything." 24:47.600 --> 24:49.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% What you're doing is, it's matchmaking, 24:49.066 --> 24:50.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and anyone who has ever tried to match make 24:50.566 --> 24:52.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% knows you've gotta throw the numbers up, man. 24:52.700 --> 24:53.866 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - It's pretty hard. 24:53.866 --> 24:55.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - No, throw the numbers up. It might work. 24:55.333 --> 24:58.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Swiping left at Shakespeare, whatever it ends up being. 24:58.533 --> 25:00.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - No. If it's for Shakespeare, swipe. 25:01.800 --> 25:03.300 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (laughter) 25:03.300 --> 25:05.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - What's the last good book you read? 25:05.266 --> 25:07.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Man, I've read a lot of really good books, 25:07.233 --> 25:09.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but one of the great books I've read recently 25:09.733 --> 25:11.200 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% is non-fiction. 25:11.200 --> 25:15.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Sarah Lewis, The Rise, which is a book about failure. 25:17.033 --> 25:20.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's an incredible book. She is fantastic. 25:20.766 --> 25:22.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - A theory of this book, very quickly, 25:22.000 --> 25:23.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% we're almost out of time, is what? 25:23.066 --> 25:24.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% What's the theory of this book? 25:24.300 --> 25:27.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It's about how we run away from failure, 25:27.333 --> 25:29.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% but the only way to excellence, 25:29.233 --> 25:31.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and the only way to a good life, is through failure. 25:31.600 --> 25:33.133 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - The cliche is true. 25:33.133 --> 25:34.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You learn more by failing than you do by succeeding. 25:34.166 --> 25:35.400 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yes. 25:35.400 --> 25:36.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And that we'd all to better to fail more. 25:36.666 --> 25:39.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It would prepare to do better going for. 25:39.100 --> 25:41.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - As every relationship reveals. 25:41.966 --> 25:43.200 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (laughter) 25:43.200 --> 25:45.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Are you gonna write another novel ever? 25:45.000 --> 25:46.433 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - I'm trying. 25:46.433 --> 25:48.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% If I can live a couple more years, 25:48.500 --> 25:50.333 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% maybe I'll get it done. 25:50.333 --> 25:52.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Let me say on behalf of everybody watching this, 25:52.533 --> 25:53.633 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% please stay alive. 25:54.800 --> 25:56.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Junot Diaz, good to be with you, man. 25:56.866 --> 25:57.966 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Thanks so much. 25:57.966 --> 26:00.433 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (applause) 26:00.433 --> 26:02.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Narrator] We'd love to have you join us at the studio. 26:02.233 --> 26:06.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Visit our website at klru.org/overheard 26:06.300 --> 26:08.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to find invitations to interviews, 26:08.500 --> 26:10.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Q&As with our audience and guests, 26:10.533 --> 26:13.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and archive of past episodes. 26:13.400 --> 26:18.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - A society is defined by what it doesn't want to look at. 26:18.233 --> 26:20.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And art, in general, is obsessed 26:20.833 --> 26:23.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% with what society doesn't want to look at. 26:23.033 --> 26:25.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And so it's no accident that we will consume 26:25.600 --> 26:27.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the juicy, sweet parts of an art 26:27.533 --> 26:31.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% while ignoring the knotty, difficult truths. 26:31.433 --> 26:33.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Narrator] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 26:33.900 --> 26:36.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 26:36.766 --> 26:39.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy, 26:39.333 --> 26:41.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and by Claire and Carl Stuart.