1 00:00:01,466 --> 00:00:03,000 - [Narrator] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,866 is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 3 00:00:05,866 --> 00:00:08,433 a Texas government affairs consultancy 4 00:00:08,433 --> 00:00:11,000 and by Claire and Carl Stuart. 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:14,766 - I'm Evan Smith. His debut novel, 6 00:00:14,766 --> 00:00:16,966 The Brief Wonderous Life of Oscar Wilde 7 00:00:16,966 --> 00:00:19,000 was awarded the Pulitzer Prize. 8 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,266 His two collections of short stories, Drowned, 9 00:00:21,266 --> 00:00:24,333 and, This is How You Lose Her are each critically acclaimed. 10 00:00:24,333 --> 00:00:28,433 His latest book for children this time is Island Born. 11 00:00:28,433 --> 00:00:31,066 He's Juno Diaz. This is Overheard. 12 00:00:32,433 --> 00:00:33,700 Let's be honest. 13 00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:35,066 Is this about the ability to learn 14 00:00:35,066 --> 00:00:37,066 or is this about the experience 15 00:00:37,066 --> 00:00:38,600 of not having been taught properly? 16 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:40,933 How have you avoided what has befallen 17 00:00:40,933 --> 00:00:42,466 other nations in Africa? 18 00:00:42,466 --> 00:00:44,233 You can say that he made his own bed 19 00:00:44,233 --> 00:00:45,700 but you caused him to sleep in it. 20 00:00:45,700 --> 00:00:49,200 You saw a problem and overtime you took it on. 21 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,166 Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 22 00:00:52,166 --> 00:00:54,000 Are you gonna run for President? 23 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,200 I think I just got an F from from you actually. 24 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,733 This is Overheard. 25 00:01:00,733 --> 00:01:02,166 Juno Diaz welcome. 26 00:01:02,166 --> 00:01:03,400 - Thank you so much. - Very nice to be with you 27 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:04,966 Congratulations on the book. 28 00:01:04,966 --> 00:01:05,900 - Thank you. 29 00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:06,833 - But before we talk about it, 30 00:01:06,833 --> 00:01:08,900 I want to make a confession, 31 00:01:08,900 --> 00:01:10,133 that I thought to myself 32 00:01:10,133 --> 00:01:11,700 when I was getting ready to sit down with you, 33 00:01:11,700 --> 00:01:12,900 I need to go and read 34 00:01:12,900 --> 00:01:15,666 all the Junot Diaz books I haven't read. 35 00:01:15,666 --> 00:01:16,500 - That'll be quick. (audience laughter) 36 00:01:16,500 --> 00:01:17,900 - I read Oscar Wilde, 37 00:01:17,900 --> 00:01:19,266 and I read the collection of short stories, 38 00:01:19,266 --> 00:01:22,300 surely Drown was published in the mid-90s. 39 00:01:23,500 --> 00:01:24,766 Well, I know that you're not exactly 40 00:01:24,766 --> 00:01:26,900 George Carol Oates, publishing a book 41 00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:28,500 every five minutes, but at the same time 42 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:31,200 I thought, well 23 years is a long time, 22 years 43 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,900 there must be more books, no. 44 00:01:33,900 --> 00:01:37,800 - Yeah, I take it easy. (audience laughter) 45 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,033 - I mean, this is not a criticism, it's an observation. 46 00:01:40,033 --> 00:01:41,566 - I don't mind criticism. 47 00:01:41,566 --> 00:01:42,866 - No, it's an observation, I mean, you are writing 48 00:01:42,866 --> 00:01:46,300 on a pace that is really atypical for successful 49 00:01:46,300 --> 00:01:48,766 and acclaimed authors, people tend to produce more 50 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:51,300 and I just wonder if this is a deliberate 51 00:01:51,300 --> 00:01:52,500 strategy on your part to wait until you have 52 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:54,800 a book to write, resisting the pressure 53 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,033 to write more, or do you struggle, do you 54 00:01:58,033 --> 00:01:59,300 wish you would be publishing more if you 55 00:01:59,300 --> 00:02:01,233 could only figure out a way to do it. 56 00:02:01,233 --> 00:02:03,333 - Unfortunately, it's both. 57 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,533 It takes me a long time to get a book that really 58 00:02:08,533 --> 00:02:12,033 is gonna speak to the deepest part of me. 59 00:02:12,033 --> 00:02:13,900 In a way, like I have to-- 60 00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:16,133 Books have to not become friends, 61 00:02:16,133 --> 00:02:18,366 they don't even have to become lovers, 62 00:02:18,366 --> 00:02:20,933 a book has to become my family in a weird way 63 00:02:20,933 --> 00:02:22,733 before I can get to it, and it takes 64 00:02:22,733 --> 00:02:25,333 a long time to make a family, as everyone knows 65 00:02:25,333 --> 00:02:27,100 And then at the other side of it, 66 00:02:27,100 --> 00:02:28,966 I always wish I could do more, 67 00:02:28,966 --> 00:02:31,033 I always wish I was writing more, but ultimately 68 00:02:31,033 --> 00:02:34,000 it seems like whatever part of me is creative 69 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,666 needs a lot more than most folks. 70 00:02:36,666 --> 00:02:39,600 It takes me a long time to get to this stuff. 71 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,300 - And also, your books are so personal, 72 00:02:41,300 --> 00:02:42,700 and they're personal in a way that even 73 00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:44,066 when you say that about most authors, 74 00:02:44,066 --> 00:02:46,833 well this book is really vaguely about you, 75 00:02:46,833 --> 00:02:48,900 but your books are really personal. 76 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:52,033 The themes in these books are really connected to you 77 00:02:52,033 --> 00:02:55,733 the characters are connected to you, or are you, right? 78 00:02:55,733 --> 00:02:58,466 - Yeah, I mean they're not very autobiographical, 79 00:02:58,466 --> 00:03:01,633 as will soon be revealed, but they're very personal. 80 00:03:01,633 --> 00:03:02,900 - But they seem autobiographical 81 00:03:02,900 --> 00:03:04,266 in the sense of details, you know, 82 00:03:04,266 --> 00:03:06,766 New Jersey shows up in these books a lot. 83 00:03:06,766 --> 00:03:08,433 The Dominican Republic shows up in these books a lot, 84 00:03:08,433 --> 00:03:10,633 the immigrant experience shows up in these books a lot. 85 00:03:10,633 --> 00:03:12,433 the fact is the narrator of Oscar Wilde, 86 00:03:12,433 --> 00:03:13,666 Yunior de Las Casas, 87 00:03:13,666 --> 00:03:15,400 who comes through a number of your books. 88 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,133 I mean, that is effectively your alter ego 89 00:03:17,133 --> 00:03:19,433 for the purposes of these books, right? 90 00:03:19,433 --> 00:03:24,433 - I would just kind of parse personal and autobiographical. 91 00:03:24,433 --> 00:03:28,866 There's a lot of stuff that is deeply important to us 92 00:03:28,866 --> 00:03:30,866 and isn't necessarily a photocopy. 93 00:03:30,866 --> 00:03:34,733 I tend to give my characters my syllabus and my clothes, 94 00:03:34,733 --> 00:03:36,700 or my resume and my clothes. 95 00:03:36,700 --> 00:03:38,633 But just because someone is rocking your resume 96 00:03:38,633 --> 00:03:41,066 and they're rocking your outfit, they're not you. 97 00:03:43,133 --> 00:03:46,000 It's interesting because I've-- 98 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,200 There's stuff about my life 99 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,100 that's so not like my characters. 100 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:54,300 I chip parts of myself to make these characters, 101 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:55,800 but there's still... 102 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,033 And I'm not just saying that to be cute or to be coy. 103 00:03:59,066 --> 00:04:01,933 I, for example, grew up with two 104 00:04:01,933 --> 00:04:05,033 absolutely out of control, amazing sisters 105 00:04:05,033 --> 00:04:07,500 that are a huge part of my life. 106 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:09,133 And I've never written about them 107 00:04:09,133 --> 00:04:11,333 because they've asked me never to write about them. 108 00:04:11,333 --> 00:04:15,500 And without my sisters, I don't make any sense. 109 00:04:15,500 --> 00:04:17,600 No one can understand me without my sisters. 110 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:18,900 - So if you're not showing us that 111 00:04:18,900 --> 00:04:20,166 then you're really not showing us you, 112 00:04:20,166 --> 00:04:21,633 as far as these books go. 113 00:04:21,633 --> 00:04:23,566 So we shouldn't take any random sister 114 00:04:23,566 --> 00:04:25,066 in one of these short stories 115 00:04:25,066 --> 00:04:26,533 that is in a collection or published in a magazine, 116 00:04:26,533 --> 00:04:30,133 or Lola in Oscar Wilde, Oscar's sister. 117 00:04:30,133 --> 00:04:31,800 We shouldn't take that to be 118 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,133 this is a stand in for my sister. 119 00:04:34,133 --> 00:04:36,033 It's a simple minded view of the world. 120 00:04:36,033 --> 00:04:37,533 - No, no. 121 00:04:37,533 --> 00:04:39,866 I just say the day you meet my sisters in literature, 122 00:04:39,866 --> 00:04:41,900 you will know. 123 00:04:41,900 --> 00:04:44,633 I promise you. There will be no doubt. 124 00:04:45,833 --> 00:04:47,366 - So let's talk about these books. 125 00:04:47,366 --> 00:04:50,766 So first of all, a children's book. An interesting decision. 126 00:04:50,766 --> 00:04:51,600 Why? 127 00:04:52,733 --> 00:04:54,333 - I'll do a couple of reasons. 128 00:04:54,333 --> 00:04:56,166 I wish I could say that they're strategic reasons. 129 00:04:56,166 --> 00:04:57,833 They're not. 130 00:04:57,833 --> 00:05:00,433 One of them, of course, is the tremendous need. 131 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,266 I've been kind of a published writer now for, 132 00:05:05,266 --> 00:05:07,966 you know, it's been 25 years, 26 years. 133 00:05:09,033 --> 00:05:10,900 Sorry, 22 years. 134 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:13,433 And one of the thing that happens is 135 00:05:13,433 --> 00:05:15,266 all the time people come up to you and they say, 136 00:05:15,266 --> 00:05:17,400 "Hey, listen. I've got a family. 137 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,433 "I ain't reading your books to my family. 138 00:05:20,433 --> 00:05:22,466 "Can you write some kid's books for me?" 139 00:05:22,466 --> 00:05:25,033 People keep saying that and eventually you realize 140 00:05:25,033 --> 00:05:26,533 there's a tremendous need. 141 00:05:26,533 --> 00:05:28,333 Also, I'm one of those people 142 00:05:28,333 --> 00:05:30,366 who never had kids of their own, 143 00:05:30,366 --> 00:05:32,666 and so I'm surrounded by all my friends' kids, 144 00:05:32,666 --> 00:05:33,633 all my godchildren. 145 00:05:33,633 --> 00:05:34,833 I have six godchildren. 146 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,433 When your friends foist off their kids on you, 147 00:05:38,433 --> 00:05:41,566 I'm always happy, but when they find out you're a writer 148 00:05:41,566 --> 00:05:45,233 they're like, "Oh, you write? Write me a book." 149 00:05:45,233 --> 00:05:46,833 (laughter) "Make it snappy." 150 00:05:46,833 --> 00:05:49,533 - So this is like on demand? Is that how this goes? 151 00:05:49,533 --> 00:05:53,600 - Yeah, on demand with me works on a paleolithic level. 152 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,633 - But still. But still. 153 00:05:56,733 --> 00:05:58,966 You could write anything at this point. 154 00:05:58,966 --> 00:06:00,533 You're successful enough, you're well known enough. 155 00:06:00,533 --> 00:06:03,466 I bet the world demands stuff of you at all levels. 156 00:06:03,466 --> 00:06:06,200 It's a little bit like that all cats have four legs, 157 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,200 but all things with four legs are not cats. 158 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,466 All children's book authors are authors, 159 00:06:10,466 --> 00:06:13,100 but not all authors are children's book authors. 160 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:16,466 Not every author is situated to write a children's book. 161 00:06:16,466 --> 00:06:18,266 They don't have it in them. They wouldn't know how to do it. 162 00:06:18,266 --> 00:06:19,500 They wouldn't have the touch for it. 163 00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:20,700 But you apparently do. 164 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:21,966 I mean, I can say, having read this book, 165 00:06:21,966 --> 00:06:23,500 this feels absolutely like a book 166 00:06:23,500 --> 00:06:27,000 if I had small children now-- used to-- 167 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,466 I would be all over this book. 168 00:06:28,466 --> 00:06:30,333 - I appreciate it. It took a while. 169 00:06:30,333 --> 00:06:34,933 And again, when you have the arbiters 170 00:06:34,933 --> 00:06:36,566 that are little children, 171 00:06:36,566 --> 00:06:38,300 they will let you know what's whack. 172 00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:39,600 - They're the toughest critics, right? 173 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,700 - Yeah, they puke on me. (laughter) 174 00:06:41,700 --> 00:06:43,866 - I would describe puking on you as a bad review. 175 00:06:43,866 --> 00:06:45,200 - Yeah, it was terrible. 176 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:46,866 - It would be a terrible review. 177 00:06:46,866 --> 00:06:48,766 The main character of this book is Lola. 178 00:06:48,766 --> 00:06:50,833 She's Afro-Latin. She's in school. 179 00:06:50,833 --> 00:06:53,933 Her teacher says to her class-- It's a class of immigrants. 180 00:06:53,933 --> 00:06:55,833 I mean, one of the things I love about this is 181 00:06:55,833 --> 00:06:59,733 it begins with this idea of a class of immigrants 182 00:06:59,733 --> 00:07:02,666 is normal, it's America. 183 00:07:02,666 --> 00:07:03,833 Everybody is from some place. 184 00:07:03,833 --> 00:07:06,300 And the assignment given to this class is, 185 00:07:07,466 --> 00:07:10,033 it's draw a picture of where you're from. 186 00:07:11,433 --> 00:07:15,066 Only Lola's problem is she came from the Dominican Republic. 187 00:07:15,066 --> 00:07:16,800 - From the island. - From the island. 188 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,633 And she knows where she's from, 189 00:07:20,633 --> 00:07:22,133 but she has no memories of it. 190 00:07:23,566 --> 00:07:25,000 And she then begins, over the course of this book, 191 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,333 to talk to members of her family, other people she knows, 192 00:07:27,333 --> 00:07:29,400 who, like her, are from the island, 193 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,433 and says, "Help me understand what it was like." 194 00:07:31,433 --> 00:07:33,600 And she gets these images from these conversations 195 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,100 that become the basis for her work. 196 00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:39,333 It's a pretty straightforward idea. Kids can understand it. 197 00:07:39,333 --> 00:07:41,433 They'll see themselves in it. 198 00:07:41,433 --> 00:07:43,500 But it's really about so much more. 199 00:07:43,500 --> 00:07:45,000 - Yeah. 200 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,733 I mean, the one thing all of us remember about being young 201 00:07:46,733 --> 00:07:51,266 is that we all have to confront the fact 202 00:07:51,266 --> 00:07:54,333 that we can't remember our origins, period. 203 00:07:54,333 --> 00:07:57,966 We hear stories about our childhood, we see pictures. 204 00:07:57,966 --> 00:08:00,633 It's very uncanny, because we see pictures of ourself 205 00:08:00,633 --> 00:08:02,733 but we have no member of being one, 206 00:08:02,733 --> 00:08:04,533 or six months, or anything. 207 00:08:04,533 --> 00:08:05,766 When you're an immigrant, 208 00:08:05,766 --> 00:08:09,133 that what we call universal experience 209 00:08:09,133 --> 00:08:12,033 becomes deeply charged. 210 00:08:12,033 --> 00:08:13,500 It becomes very, very charged. 211 00:08:13,500 --> 00:08:15,166 The question of origins takes on 212 00:08:15,166 --> 00:08:17,933 an entirely different valence. 213 00:08:19,366 --> 00:08:23,033 You know, we all are curious about where we come from. 214 00:08:23,033 --> 00:08:28,033 - This is a very, very deep book. This is not Hop on Pop. 215 00:08:28,900 --> 00:08:30,633 This is a very, very deep book, 216 00:08:30,633 --> 00:08:33,300 wrapped inside a book that is for children. 217 00:08:33,300 --> 00:08:34,700 And it says something about the larger world 218 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:35,600 in which we live in. 219 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:36,433 - Well, yeah. 220 00:08:37,900 --> 00:08:42,900 The history of how the west deals with immigration, 221 00:08:45,633 --> 00:08:48,900 and imagines its immigrants, 222 00:08:48,900 --> 00:08:53,500 is a very problematic and troubled history. 223 00:08:53,500 --> 00:08:57,066 And this is something that has bedeviled the west-- 224 00:08:57,066 --> 00:08:59,900 not only the west-- and continues to bedevil people. 225 00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:01,400 In the United States, of course, 226 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,533 it's taken on the most malign turn that we've seen 227 00:09:05,533 --> 00:09:08,566 at least in the 50 years that I've been alive. 228 00:09:08,566 --> 00:09:11,900 These days the concept of immigration 229 00:09:11,900 --> 00:09:13,833 has been so weaponized, 230 00:09:13,833 --> 00:09:16,433 and has been sort of conscripted 231 00:09:16,433 --> 00:09:20,533 by very strong white supremacist elements in this country 232 00:09:20,533 --> 00:09:22,866 as being the wedge issue. 233 00:09:22,866 --> 00:09:25,566 And therefore the right, or even to recognize 234 00:09:25,566 --> 00:09:30,433 that fact that most people are descended from immigrants. 235 00:09:30,433 --> 00:09:32,966 If you're not fully indigenous, 236 00:09:32,966 --> 00:09:35,933 if you're not a person fully of African descent 237 00:09:35,933 --> 00:09:39,466 who was brought here because of slavery, 238 00:09:39,466 --> 00:09:43,166 chances are you're an immigrant, 239 00:09:43,166 --> 00:09:44,700 you're descended from immigrants. 240 00:09:44,700 --> 00:09:47,233 And so this should not be this kind of weird, alien, 241 00:09:47,233 --> 00:09:50,100 hyper-charged, contested thing, 242 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:52,233 but there's politics in this country, 243 00:09:52,233 --> 00:09:54,100 very malign and dangerous politics 244 00:09:54,100 --> 00:09:56,900 that have made what is the most normal part 245 00:09:56,900 --> 00:10:00,500 of what we call the American experience 246 00:10:00,500 --> 00:10:02,533 deeply, deeply threatening. 247 00:10:02,533 --> 00:10:05,400 - You use the phrase "strong white supremacist streak." 248 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,933 I wouldn't like it if it were only strong white supremacists 249 00:10:08,933 --> 00:10:11,866 who were appropriating this argument. 250 00:10:11,866 --> 00:10:13,366 The problem in my mind, Junot, 251 00:10:13,366 --> 00:10:15,566 is that it's not just strong white supremacists, 252 00:10:15,566 --> 00:10:18,466 that this has actually been normalized. 253 00:10:18,466 --> 00:10:21,066 It's by non-strong non-white supremacists. 254 00:10:21,066 --> 00:10:23,500 - But I would argue white supremacy is normalized. 255 00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:26,166 When I say white supremacists I don't mean people in hoods. 256 00:10:26,166 --> 00:10:27,100 - You don't mean just the guy 257 00:10:27,100 --> 00:10:29,066 with torches in Charlottesville. 258 00:10:29,066 --> 00:10:31,566 I mean that this is something, a side of politics, 259 00:10:31,566 --> 00:10:33,200 that we've all internalized. 260 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,166 You cannot be alive in this world 261 00:10:36,166 --> 00:10:39,300 without your political construction 262 00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:42,166 including strands of white supremacy. 263 00:10:42,166 --> 00:10:44,000 You don't need white people 264 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,633 for white supremacy to be alive and well. 265 00:10:46,633 --> 00:10:48,166 You can be in a country with no white people 266 00:10:48,166 --> 00:10:50,066 and white supremacy is alive and well, 267 00:10:50,066 --> 00:10:53,266 in very different permutations. 268 00:10:53,266 --> 00:10:55,966 And I do think that this is part of 269 00:10:55,966 --> 00:10:57,766 what we haven't been able to do 270 00:10:57,766 --> 00:10:59,900 because we haven't been able to confront it. 271 00:10:59,900 --> 00:11:02,933 The way that Germany had to de-Nazify itself, 272 00:11:02,933 --> 00:11:04,966 an actual movement, a process, 273 00:11:04,966 --> 00:11:07,833 the United States has never addressed 274 00:11:07,833 --> 00:11:10,266 how dedicated it is 275 00:11:10,266 --> 00:11:12,366 to some of the logics of white supremacy. 276 00:11:12,366 --> 00:11:14,533 And one day we will have to have that reckoning. 277 00:11:14,533 --> 00:11:16,300 We all have to purge it from ourselves. 278 00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:18,466 - Well the population trends in this country, 279 00:11:18,466 --> 00:11:20,033 we happen to sit in the state of Texas 280 00:11:20,033 --> 00:11:22,133 in which population trends are heading faster 281 00:11:22,133 --> 00:11:25,333 in the direction that the country's population trends are. 282 00:11:25,333 --> 00:11:27,266 I mean, really, it's both an explanation 283 00:11:27,266 --> 00:11:29,066 and also a warning about this, 284 00:11:29,066 --> 00:11:31,966 because it is just that very trend in population 285 00:11:31,966 --> 00:11:34,700 that is causing people to demonize or weaponize 286 00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:36,400 the notion of otherness. 287 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:37,833 I mean, in some ways, 288 00:11:37,833 --> 00:11:40,100 immigration is more of a policy or political construct, 289 00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:41,333 but what this really is about is 290 00:11:41,333 --> 00:11:42,666 you look different from me, 291 00:11:42,666 --> 00:11:44,033 you have a different perspective from me, 292 00:11:44,033 --> 00:11:45,466 you come from a different place to me, 293 00:11:45,466 --> 00:11:48,266 and that's been turned into this big bludgeon. 294 00:11:48,266 --> 00:11:49,500 - Yeah, or for a lot of it, 295 00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:50,866 think about a lot of the people 296 00:11:50,866 --> 00:11:52,900 who are being demonized and stigmatized 297 00:11:52,900 --> 00:11:54,200 have been in this country 298 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,066 since this country was this country. 299 00:11:56,066 --> 00:11:58,600 And it has almost nothing to do, 300 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,166 despite what everyone argues with, 301 00:12:00,166 --> 00:12:02,566 it has almost nothing really to do with immigration. 302 00:12:02,566 --> 00:12:05,866 It has to do straight up with racial animus. 303 00:12:05,866 --> 00:12:07,633 And that's really what it is. 304 00:12:07,633 --> 00:12:10,700 That's the ruse, the excuse, that it's immigration, 305 00:12:10,700 --> 00:12:13,333 but it's just the praxis of racial animus. 306 00:12:13,333 --> 00:12:14,600 - This is not a public safety issue 307 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,200 as much as it may be made out to be one. 308 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,133 This is not an economics issue. We know what this is. 309 00:12:19,133 --> 00:12:20,533 So all of your books, 310 00:12:21,733 --> 00:12:23,900 Drowned, which we said, is '95, '96, 311 00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:28,366 Oscar Wilde, which is 2007, 312 00:12:28,366 --> 00:12:30,666 and This is How You Lose Her, which is 2012. 313 00:12:30,666 --> 00:12:34,433 All of those books deal with this narrative through line 314 00:12:34,433 --> 00:12:36,900 of the immigrant experience, 315 00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:39,666 of the changing face of America, all of that, 316 00:12:39,666 --> 00:12:41,433 and characters grappling with all of that. 317 00:12:41,433 --> 00:12:43,133 This has pretty much been a consistent bit of you. 318 00:12:43,133 --> 00:12:45,233 - Sure, and characters dealing with what it means 319 00:12:45,233 --> 00:12:46,566 to be of African descent. 320 00:12:49,166 --> 00:12:50,866 That's very accurate. 321 00:12:50,866 --> 00:12:53,733 And I also have kind of a sideline on 322 00:12:54,700 --> 00:12:56,966 people in crazy relationships. 323 00:12:56,966 --> 00:12:58,300 - Well I was about to say, 324 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:00,633 you are not the author I would turn to 325 00:13:00,633 --> 00:13:03,166 to feel good about any romantic relationship. 326 00:13:03,166 --> 00:13:04,600 - Though I would argue, 327 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,033 and allow me to defend those of us 328 00:13:07,033 --> 00:13:08,966 who have been in dysfunctional relationships. 329 00:13:08,966 --> 00:13:13,800 I would argue that no one should ever 330 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,600 turn to literature for self help. 331 00:13:17,066 --> 00:13:19,866 - Well that's stipulated. I don't disagree with that. 332 00:13:19,866 --> 00:13:22,633 - Literature, in fact, I would argue 333 00:13:22,633 --> 00:13:24,733 reading about what it means to be human, 334 00:13:24,733 --> 00:13:27,600 about how bad we are at intimacy, 335 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,700 in fact is a good way to... 336 00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:32,133 - [Evan] Is it pallative? It's cleansing? 337 00:13:32,133 --> 00:13:33,633 - I would argue it's a good way. 338 00:13:33,633 --> 00:13:36,766 It gives us a space to think about ourselves and intimacy. 339 00:13:36,766 --> 00:13:38,233 Most of the time we're just asked 340 00:13:38,233 --> 00:13:41,233 to buy into the fairy tale romance. 341 00:13:41,233 --> 00:13:45,666 Literature is like, "Mm. Me cracked." 342 00:13:45,666 --> 00:13:48,333 - "Let me tell you how this really is." 343 00:13:48,333 --> 00:13:51,033 - You're like, "Come on in." 344 00:13:51,033 --> 00:13:53,500 20 years later you're like, "You ruined my life." 345 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,066 - Can I go back to ask you about this 346 00:13:58,066 --> 00:14:01,933 idea of Yunior, the narrator of the Oscar Wilde book, 347 00:14:01,933 --> 00:14:04,566 but who has been really a feature 348 00:14:04,566 --> 00:14:05,800 in many of the things you have written. 349 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,066 In fact goes back, as I understand, 350 00:14:07,066 --> 00:14:09,200 the story goes back to your application 351 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,400 to the MFA program at Cornell, right? 352 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,666 - Yes. I was writing about him even before that. 353 00:14:13,666 --> 00:14:16,666 - But you go back even before you were a published author 354 00:14:16,666 --> 00:14:19,033 in the sense that we know you to be a published author. 355 00:14:19,033 --> 00:14:21,033 Why go that route? 356 00:14:22,133 --> 00:14:23,900 - Yeah, that's a really good question. 357 00:14:25,633 --> 00:14:26,833 Despite what it might seem, 358 00:14:26,833 --> 00:14:28,900 it's not as if I can't make stuff up. 359 00:14:30,333 --> 00:14:32,866 I could have had five or six different alter egos. 360 00:14:32,866 --> 00:14:37,266 What I decided was what really interested me 361 00:14:37,266 --> 00:14:42,266 was this observation I had very early on 362 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,766 about how many masks we all wear. 363 00:14:45,766 --> 00:14:49,333 I was this kid who was this immigrant kid, 364 00:14:49,333 --> 00:14:51,133 Dominican, kid of African descent. 365 00:14:51,133 --> 00:14:52,366 - You got to New Jersey. 366 00:14:52,366 --> 00:14:55,133 You came to this country to Patterson. 367 00:14:55,133 --> 00:14:56,666 - Nope. Right outside of Perth Amboy. 368 00:14:56,666 --> 00:14:58,633 - Outside of Perth Amboy, New Jersey. 369 00:14:58,633 --> 00:15:01,266 Oscar is in Patterson, right? Oscar Wilde was in Patterson. 370 00:15:01,266 --> 00:15:03,233 There's one of the ways in which this diverges a little bit. 371 00:15:03,233 --> 00:15:05,666 - Yeah, P-Town, man. It's another world up there. 372 00:15:08,633 --> 00:15:09,800 - How old were you got to New Jersey? 373 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,266 - Six. 374 00:15:11,266 --> 00:15:15,800 What became very clear to me was that I had all these faces, 375 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,400 and so few people knew them all. 376 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,666 I was in a neighborhood, 377 00:15:21,666 --> 00:15:24,333 and that neighborhood was real particular. 378 00:15:24,333 --> 00:15:26,833 I grew up in an African-American neighborhood 379 00:15:26,833 --> 00:15:30,033 with a lot of working class folks of color, 380 00:15:30,033 --> 00:15:31,566 and that was real particular then. 381 00:15:31,566 --> 00:15:34,166 I got bussed into, with everybody in the neighborhood, 382 00:15:34,166 --> 00:15:37,000 into a predominantly white school, but on top of that 383 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,866 I was tested into the gifted and talented program. 384 00:15:40,866 --> 00:15:42,900 So I'm in the gifted and talented program thinking, 385 00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:45,266 "None of these people have ever been in my neighborhood." 386 00:15:45,266 --> 00:15:46,833 I'm in my neighborhood thinking, 387 00:15:46,833 --> 00:15:48,600 "IF you all could see gifted and talented, 388 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,066 "you'd be laughing at me all day." 389 00:15:51,066 --> 00:15:53,166 - You get it coming and going. That's it. 390 00:15:53,166 --> 00:15:54,433 - Then I started working. 391 00:15:54,433 --> 00:15:56,566 Typical working poor, working class jobs. 392 00:15:56,566 --> 00:15:59,166 Worked in a steel mill. Worked delivering pool tables. 393 00:15:59,166 --> 00:16:01,833 I'm in college classes being a super nerd, 394 00:16:01,833 --> 00:16:03,100 delivering pool tables. 395 00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:04,300 - At Rutgers. 396 00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:06,333 - And you just have all these faces, 397 00:16:06,333 --> 00:16:08,433 and you have all these people you are. 398 00:16:08,433 --> 00:16:10,000 And I thought, "You know what? 399 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,133 "I can write about one person, 400 00:16:12,133 --> 00:16:15,800 "and this cat has so many faces and so many sides 401 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:20,166 "that this person could fill four, five, six books." 402 00:16:20,166 --> 00:16:21,766 And that's what I thought, I thought, "Let me try this." 403 00:16:21,766 --> 00:16:24,500 - Well, it's amazingly effective. 404 00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:27,200 It's not novel in the sense that others have... 405 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:28,400 - (mumbling) 406 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,500 - Well, no, no. The point is that it's not-- 407 00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:33,500 This construct is one that others have used in the past, 408 00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:35,766 but it's particularly effective, and the fact that it's-- 409 00:16:35,766 --> 00:16:39,166 Again, we may mistake it to be a stand-in for you. 410 00:16:39,166 --> 00:16:41,533 It nonetheless puts us in the mind of you. 411 00:16:41,533 --> 00:16:44,600 - Well it's important for fiction 412 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,133 to have what Foucault called truth effects. 413 00:16:48,133 --> 00:16:50,466 I write the lie that tells the truth. 414 00:16:50,466 --> 00:16:52,633 There's no accident that books 415 00:16:52,633 --> 00:16:54,833 live inside of your nervous system. 416 00:16:54,833 --> 00:16:56,700 The only other thing that lives inside of your 417 00:16:56,700 --> 00:17:00,366 nervous system as powerfully as art is the real world. 418 00:17:00,366 --> 00:17:02,233 And so it's real easy for us to think 419 00:17:02,233 --> 00:17:05,100 that something that's art is actually true, 420 00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:09,233 because the same mechanism we're using to interpret the real 421 00:17:09,233 --> 00:17:11,066 we're using to interpret our books. 422 00:17:11,066 --> 00:17:12,500 - Let me come back to this for a second 423 00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:14,600 and then I want to go to MIT, where you teach. 424 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,333 I want to talk about what you see in the context of-- 425 00:17:17,333 --> 00:17:18,266 - My youth. 426 00:17:18,266 --> 00:17:19,766 - Teaching the next generation. 427 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,666 A children's book, in the sense of a literal book, 428 00:17:24,666 --> 00:17:28,233 like ink on paper, is very old school. 429 00:17:28,233 --> 00:17:30,966 The kids who are coming up today 430 00:17:30,966 --> 00:17:32,966 have a very different set of habits 431 00:17:32,966 --> 00:17:35,033 in terms of the content they consume, 432 00:17:35,033 --> 00:17:37,700 the platforms that they are on. 433 00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:40,166 Do you worry that a book like this, 434 00:17:40,166 --> 00:17:41,400 at the end of the day, 435 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,700 is not targeting the audience that exists? 436 00:17:45,866 --> 00:17:49,666 - I worry all the time about literary culture. 437 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,000 - People still read the New Yorker. 438 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,466 Many of the short stories we know 439 00:17:55,466 --> 00:17:57,733 under the banners of your two collections 440 00:17:57,733 --> 00:18:00,900 appear in print before they were collected. 441 00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:03,866 But those guys are the exception, right? 442 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,400 - We live in a society where 443 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:12,400 if you haven't had a lifelong training in reading, 444 00:18:14,266 --> 00:18:17,300 it is almost impossible to resist 445 00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:20,500 the enticements of this accelerated society. 446 00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:22,533 I mean, I don't blame young people 447 00:18:22,533 --> 00:18:25,566 who can only watch videos on YouTube, 448 00:18:25,566 --> 00:18:28,066 who never learned to be able to carve out 449 00:18:28,066 --> 00:18:31,266 two hours of space every day to do some reading. 450 00:18:31,266 --> 00:18:32,633 How can they? 451 00:18:32,633 --> 00:18:37,033 We've unleashed corporations with endless funds 452 00:18:37,033 --> 00:18:39,200 on their imaginaries unchecked. 453 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,333 How in the world is a child 454 00:18:41,333 --> 00:18:45,833 gonna be able to compete against Google, against Apple, 455 00:18:45,833 --> 00:18:48,333 against all of these massive corporations 456 00:18:48,333 --> 00:18:50,266 that take away all their time? 457 00:18:50,266 --> 00:18:54,100 The very fact that young people read as much as they do 458 00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:57,300 shows you how robust and healthy literary culture are. 459 00:18:57,300 --> 00:18:58,233 - So you're optimistic about this. 460 00:18:58,233 --> 00:18:59,533 - It's not that I'm optimistic. 461 00:18:59,533 --> 00:19:01,133 It's that I want to recognize something 462 00:19:01,133 --> 00:19:04,133 that in another world just like this one, 463 00:19:04,133 --> 00:19:06,033 we're not doing as well as we're doing. 464 00:19:06,033 --> 00:19:08,500 We're always in kind of the doom mode 465 00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:10,233 because we don't recognize that 466 00:19:10,233 --> 00:19:12,500 despite the trillions of dollars 467 00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:14,966 that are directed at people like me, and you, and younger, 468 00:19:14,966 --> 00:19:17,833 to tell you not to read, people are still reading. 469 00:19:17,833 --> 00:19:21,266 And that's heroic. We should have lost a long time ago. 470 00:19:21,266 --> 00:19:23,333 - So you actually think that the next generation 471 00:19:23,333 --> 00:19:26,066 will ultimately stay with us as far as this goes. 472 00:19:26,066 --> 00:19:27,333 - It's not up for me to say. 473 00:19:27,333 --> 00:19:30,566 I just want to recognize the fact that this form, 474 00:19:30,566 --> 00:19:33,533 for all of its clunkiness and its old worldness 475 00:19:33,533 --> 00:19:37,100 has got a lot of champions, and that's a good thing. 476 00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:39,533 - So go from the age of the kid 477 00:19:39,533 --> 00:19:41,833 who might be reading this book, 478 00:19:41,833 --> 00:19:43,833 to the age of the kid you teach, 479 00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:48,666 you teach creative writing or fiction writing at MIT. 480 00:19:49,933 --> 00:19:52,433 These are students of a certain age 481 00:19:52,433 --> 00:19:54,166 who have made the decision, they've opt-- 482 00:19:54,166 --> 00:19:56,766 I mean, it is you. Who wouldn't take your class? 483 00:19:56,766 --> 00:19:58,966 - Actually, most of them don't know anything about me. 484 00:19:58,966 --> 00:20:00,200 - Seriously? - Yeah. 485 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,600 - Well, I did think to myself, "It is MIT." 486 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:03,800 - It's not just that. 487 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:05,866 My students-- Look, let me get it straight. 488 00:20:05,866 --> 00:20:07,800 I teach at a select college. 489 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,433 Some of you may have young people at select college. 490 00:20:10,433 --> 00:20:14,000 This is the one percent of the planet educationally. 491 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,833 Just like the rest of every young person, 492 00:20:16,833 --> 00:20:19,400 all they have on them is pressure. 493 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,566 If you really think these kids 494 00:20:21,566 --> 00:20:24,433 have all this spare time to be snowflakes, 495 00:20:24,433 --> 00:20:26,566 you're a crazy conservative. 496 00:20:26,566 --> 00:20:29,333 These people, these young people, 497 00:20:29,333 --> 00:20:31,666 are under enormous amounts of pressure. 498 00:20:31,666 --> 00:20:35,533 They're looking for classes that fit their darn schedule. 499 00:20:35,533 --> 00:20:37,566 - It's as simple as that. 500 00:20:37,566 --> 00:20:38,800 You don't think they're thinking, 501 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:39,866 "I've got to take that Junot Diaz class." 502 00:20:39,866 --> 00:20:41,133 - Hey, some of them might. 503 00:20:41,133 --> 00:20:42,200 I don't want to be universalizing. 504 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:43,466 But I'm trying to tell you, 505 00:20:43,466 --> 00:20:45,966 my students, even at a place like MIT, 506 00:20:45,966 --> 00:20:47,566 there's a struggle for survival. 507 00:20:49,133 --> 00:20:52,200 We've not made universities to be what they should be. 508 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,966 They're under enormous amount of pressure. 509 00:20:53,966 --> 00:20:56,233 So I'll get my young people, and they come in. 510 00:20:56,233 --> 00:20:58,100 And some of them might know who I am. 511 00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:01,066 Most of them are like, "Get teaching," 512 00:21:01,066 --> 00:21:04,000 and it's time to get busy. 513 00:21:05,333 --> 00:21:07,333 - How do you find them, generally speaking, as students? 514 00:21:07,333 --> 00:21:10,133 Are they open-minded, are they creative thinkers, 515 00:21:10,133 --> 00:21:11,300 are they out of the box people, 516 00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:12,766 are they pretty conventional? 517 00:21:12,766 --> 00:21:15,433 What's your read as a rule about these students. 518 00:21:15,433 --> 00:21:19,400 - They have done their utmost best 519 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,700 not to let this country poison them. 520 00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:22,833 That's my take on them. 521 00:21:23,933 --> 00:21:26,033 Listen, ain't nobody in the world 522 00:21:26,033 --> 00:21:28,133 love a place like an immigrant. 523 00:21:28,133 --> 00:21:30,233 Despite what you've heard. 524 00:21:30,233 --> 00:21:33,033 At the same way, nobody loves a religion like a convert. 525 00:21:35,666 --> 00:21:38,033 Nobody loves their place like an immigrant. 526 00:21:38,033 --> 00:21:43,033 But these kids, to be a young person in this country now, 527 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,366 is nigh impossible. 528 00:21:45,366 --> 00:21:47,500 I don't have the strength and the heart, 529 00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:49,866 if somebody woke me up and I was suddenly 12 again. 530 00:21:49,866 --> 00:21:51,333 - Can you say a few words about why that is? 531 00:21:51,333 --> 00:21:53,833 I think we know instinctively, but why do you say that? 532 00:21:53,833 --> 00:21:56,466 - Because young people are basically weaned, 533 00:21:56,466 --> 00:21:58,766 they're raised every single day 534 00:21:58,766 --> 00:22:01,200 to think that the only things that matter 535 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:06,200 are competition, accumulation, and creating hierarchies. 536 00:22:07,366 --> 00:22:08,633 And they are told that no matter what, 537 00:22:08,633 --> 00:22:10,300 the future will be darker, 538 00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:12,733 and less promising than it was for your parents, 539 00:22:12,733 --> 00:22:15,300 and if you make one mistake 540 00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:17,066 you will fall off the economic ladder 541 00:22:17,066 --> 00:22:18,566 and you will never return. 542 00:22:18,566 --> 00:22:20,333 This is a society that teaches them 543 00:22:20,333 --> 00:22:22,200 that there are no safety nets, 544 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,833 that the rich can eat everything all day long, 545 00:22:26,833 --> 00:22:30,233 and everyone else is morally repugnant, 546 00:22:30,233 --> 00:22:32,333 and should therefore be scorned. 547 00:22:32,333 --> 00:22:36,866 And it's deeply scary, dystopian world that they live in. 548 00:22:36,866 --> 00:22:38,500 - Do you think, Junot, that the message 549 00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:39,900 is out of sync with the reality, 550 00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:41,333 or is the problem that the message 551 00:22:41,333 --> 00:22:43,166 is entirely in sync with the reality? 552 00:22:43,166 --> 00:22:45,666 - Well, we've certainly got a lot of politicians 553 00:22:45,666 --> 00:22:48,966 trying to make this dystopian message a permanent reality. 554 00:22:48,966 --> 00:22:51,733 But we live in a very hard country. 555 00:22:51,733 --> 00:22:54,866 It's the richest country on the planet, 556 00:22:54,866 --> 00:22:58,166 and it is on some Hunger Games things. 557 00:22:58,166 --> 00:23:01,633 And I think young people know. They ain't stupid. 558 00:23:01,633 --> 00:23:02,866 They look around and they're like, 559 00:23:02,866 --> 00:23:05,466 "Wow. This country will stamp me out." 560 00:23:05,466 --> 00:23:07,233 And they're worried. And they're worried. 561 00:23:07,233 --> 00:23:09,233 I come in, I'm an artist, 562 00:23:09,233 --> 00:23:12,266 and you try to open up other windows, 563 00:23:12,266 --> 00:23:13,633 and try to remind them 564 00:23:13,633 --> 00:23:16,133 there's other futures that are possible. 565 00:23:16,133 --> 00:23:20,166 - The theory of teaching students, or anybody, to write, 566 00:23:20,166 --> 00:23:22,466 is make them read people 567 00:23:22,466 --> 00:23:24,500 who they admire or who they'll like, 568 00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:27,800 and the more you read, the better you'll become 569 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,866 at thinking about how you want to express yourself. 570 00:23:30,866 --> 00:23:31,866 - The conservatory model. 571 00:23:31,866 --> 00:23:33,133 - That's generally your theory. 572 00:23:33,133 --> 00:23:34,266 - Well, no, it's the conservatory model. 573 00:23:34,266 --> 00:23:36,700 We have been teaching music forever 574 00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:39,066 in the conservatory model, centuries. 575 00:23:39,066 --> 00:23:40,433 You're a musician, you want to be a musician. 576 00:23:40,433 --> 00:23:42,733 You come in, we expose you to music. 577 00:23:42,733 --> 00:23:44,533 You practice. Repeat. 578 00:23:44,533 --> 00:23:47,433 If you've got excellent abilities and you're real lucky, 579 00:23:47,433 --> 00:23:48,900 you can become a musician. 580 00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:50,800 The rest of us have a good time for a few years 581 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,300 and then move on to other things. 582 00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:53,833 - You're good with that model, generally speaking. 583 00:23:53,833 --> 00:23:56,166 - Well, it's been a highly successful model. 584 00:23:56,166 --> 00:23:57,433 - So who would you teach? 585 00:23:57,433 --> 00:23:59,766 If you're trying to give young people 586 00:23:59,766 --> 00:24:04,300 a perspective on the best contemporary writing-- 587 00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:05,833 Or maybe not contemporary. 588 00:24:05,833 --> 00:24:08,266 Maybe it's that they have to go back to the old masters. 589 00:24:08,266 --> 00:24:11,300 Who do you say, "I think this is absolutely canon, 590 00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:12,900 "canonical work?" 591 00:24:14,733 --> 00:24:16,666 - It's the approach always with art. 592 00:24:16,666 --> 00:24:19,366 As we know, art doesn't purport to be religion. 593 00:24:19,366 --> 00:24:22,466 Our Bibles, and Qurans, and the Talmud 594 00:24:22,466 --> 00:24:24,266 all claim to be for everyone. 595 00:24:25,366 --> 00:24:26,933 But books are different. Art is different. 596 00:24:26,933 --> 00:24:28,333 Art is real particular. 597 00:24:28,333 --> 00:24:30,033 I tend to have the scattershot approach, 598 00:24:30,033 --> 00:24:31,233 the shotgun approach. 599 00:24:31,233 --> 00:24:32,933 I throw a ton of stuff at my students 600 00:24:32,933 --> 00:24:34,166 because you never know what's going to stick 601 00:24:34,166 --> 00:24:35,400 with any individual student. 602 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:36,933 - And so the answer may be individualized 603 00:24:36,933 --> 00:24:37,833 based on the student. 604 00:24:37,833 --> 00:24:39,866 - I'll just throw 12... 605 00:24:39,866 --> 00:24:41,966 Let's say in a week I'll give them access 606 00:24:41,966 --> 00:24:45,066 to a dozen options, and be like, "Hey, listen. 607 00:24:45,066 --> 00:24:47,600 "Roam around. See if you find anything." 608 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,066 What you're doing is, it's matchmaking, 609 00:24:49,066 --> 00:24:50,566 and anyone who has ever tried to match make 610 00:24:50,566 --> 00:24:52,700 knows you've gotta throw the numbers up, man. 611 00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:53,866 - It's pretty hard. 612 00:24:53,866 --> 00:24:55,333 - No, throw the numbers up. It might work. 613 00:24:55,333 --> 00:24:58,533 - Swiping left at Shakespeare, whatever it ends up being. 614 00:24:58,533 --> 00:25:00,633 - No. If it's for Shakespeare, swipe. 615 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,300 (laughter) 616 00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:05,266 - What's the last good book you read? 617 00:25:05,266 --> 00:25:07,233 - Man, I've read a lot of really good books, 618 00:25:07,233 --> 00:25:09,733 but one of the great books I've read recently 619 00:25:09,733 --> 00:25:11,200 is non-fiction. 620 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,933 Sarah Lewis, The Rise, which is a book about failure. 621 00:25:17,033 --> 00:25:20,766 It's an incredible book. She is fantastic. 622 00:25:20,766 --> 00:25:22,000 - A theory of this book, very quickly, 623 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,066 we're almost out of time, is what? 624 00:25:23,066 --> 00:25:24,300 What's the theory of this book? 625 00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:27,333 - It's about how we run away from failure, 626 00:25:27,333 --> 00:25:29,233 but the only way to excellence, 627 00:25:29,233 --> 00:25:31,600 and the only way to a good life, is through failure. 628 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,133 - The cliche is true. 629 00:25:33,133 --> 00:25:34,166 You learn more by failing than you do by succeeding. 630 00:25:34,166 --> 00:25:35,400 - Yes. 631 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:36,666 - And that we'd all to better to fail more. 632 00:25:36,666 --> 00:25:39,100 It would prepare to do better going for. 633 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:41,966 - As every relationship reveals. 634 00:25:41,966 --> 00:25:43,200 (laughter) 635 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,000 - Are you gonna write another novel ever? 636 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,433 - I'm trying. 637 00:25:46,433 --> 00:25:48,500 If I can live a couple more years, 638 00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:50,333 maybe I'll get it done. 639 00:25:50,333 --> 00:25:52,533 - Let me say on behalf of everybody watching this, 640 00:25:52,533 --> 00:25:53,633 please stay alive. 641 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,866 Junot Diaz, good to be with you, man. 642 00:25:56,866 --> 00:25:57,966 Thanks so much. 643 00:25:57,966 --> 00:26:00,433 (applause) 644 00:26:00,433 --> 00:26:02,233 - [Narrator] We'd love to have you join us at the studio. 645 00:26:02,233 --> 00:26:06,300 Visit our website at klru.org/overheard 646 00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:08,500 to find invitations to interviews, 647 00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:10,533 Q&As with our audience and guests, 648 00:26:10,533 --> 00:26:13,400 and archive of past episodes. 649 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:18,233 - A society is defined by what it doesn't want to look at. 650 00:26:18,233 --> 00:26:20,833 And art, in general, is obsessed 651 00:26:20,833 --> 00:26:23,033 with what society doesn't want to look at. 652 00:26:23,033 --> 00:26:25,600 And so it's no accident that we will consume 653 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,533 the juicy, sweet parts of an art 654 00:26:27,533 --> 00:26:31,433 while ignoring the knotty, difficult truths. 655 00:26:31,433 --> 00:26:33,900 - [Narrator] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 656 00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:36,766 is provided in part by Hillco Partners, 657 00:26:36,766 --> 00:26:39,333 a Texas government affairs consultancy, 658 00:26:39,333 --> 00:26:41,900 and by Claire and Carl Stuart.