(upbeat music) (bubbles blip) - Hello and welcome to "The Journal".
I'm Steve Kendall.
Issue One on the August 8th ballot in Ohio would, among other things, change how we deal with the Constitution and also some of the rules on getting amendments even on the ballot in Ohio.
We're joined by Lee McLaird and Shar Katzner of the League of Women Voters of Bowling Green.
I wanna thank you both for being here to talk about where the League of Women Voters stands is, because obviously there are two sides.
There's a yes and a no side.
League of Women Voters is saying this is a no vote for your group based on what things we're gonna talk about.
But Lee, you're the president of the chapter here in Bowling Green.
Just talk a little about the League of Women Voters, what the group is and what its goals, what its objectives are as it comes to dealing with elections and things like this.
- Okay.
The League of Women Voters has been an organization in Ohio since 1920, which was the year that women won the right to vote.
[Steve] Right.
- So we are the direct descendants organizationally of the Women's Suffrage Movement.
And since 1920 it has been decided that the most important thing that members of the League could do would be to help people find out about how to get registered to vote, what's on the ballot, when and where to vote, and all the background information that you need.
It is our rule that we do not endorse candidates nor do we endorse parties.
We can endorse issues, [Steve] Issues, okay.
- that we have done study on and talked about and voted on and gotten a consensus, which is the most likely way to get it.
And then you have the most organization that way.
What the Bowling Green League does every four years or so, we have a candidate forum available.
There may be a slightly different method of putting it on this time, coming up in 2024 because of changes as things go on.
But it's a really great opportunity for people to come in and ask questions themselves of candidates and see two candidates or compare candidates right there while you're thinking about it.
And so we really enjoy doing that.
[Steve] Well, and I think too and I wanna emphasize too that the group is a nonpartisan group.
You're not affiliated, [Lee] Absolutely.
[Steve] with any party in any way.
[Lee] No parties, no candidates.
[Steve] Yeah and so you've got a cross section of people from the community, chapters in different cities around the state.
[Lee] Yes.
[Steve] There's a state organization and other states have a structure probably similar to that as well.
[Lee] Yes.
[Steve] Yeah, yeah.
Now, when you look at issues, and I know that Shar you've been with the group a little more than a year, what are the things you assess?
When you sit down and say, okay, for instance, we'll talk a little bit about an issue you want to detail, but any issue that comes along, what kind of research, what kind of discussions go on to determine if you're gonna take a position on it and if you do what that position's going to be, what's the criteria kind of for that?
[Shar] I say a lot of it has to do whether or not it affects our democracy.
League of Women Voters, it has voters in its name.
[Steve] Yeah.
[Shar] So if it has to deal with voting, for sure if we're gonna take a stand one way or the other, and especially issue one, has to deal with our democracy.
And so doing a lot of research on that.
- And I think coming from the background as you described, Lee, that this is basically the direct descendants of the Women's Suffrage was to make voting accessible for women.
I mean, it's hard to imagine that that was ever the case, that they wouldn't, that people didn't have access in that regard.
So it is basically when I kinda look at the core from the outside, that you're trying to make sure that people, as you said, are aware of what's going to be on the ballot, how they can vote, all of the particular, so that people can make an informed decision, just like the candidates for them.
When you look at issue one and the amendment does change significantly how we deal with constitutional amendments.
Requires a 60% voter approval, used to be 50 plus 1.
But down inside, I think one of the things that gets lost in that a little bit, and then we can probably talk about this, the fact that it also makes it more difficult or changes the way we get things even to be on the ballot as a constitutional amendment.
Right now it's 44 counties, a certain percentage in each county.
This now requires 5% of every county 88, which is a different hurdle.
So when you guys looked at that, why did you come down the way you did on taking a position on issue one?
- Well, when we looked at the actual numbers of petitions that were actually submitted, you can go to the Attorney General's website and he has listed from 2006 how many petitions were submitted.
[Steve] Right.
- And currently on his site there were 93 submitted, and of those only seven made it to the ballot.
[Steve] Ah.
- So there's not a huge, huge number to actually make it to the ballot.
[Steve]So yeah, under the current rules.
[Shar] Under the current rule.
[Steve] Yeah.
[Shar] So that's only 7.5%, [Steve] Right.
[Shar] that actually get there.
And of those only three pass.
So it's not like there's a huge.
- [Steve] Yeah, like we've been overwhelmed with constitutional amendments on the ballot.
[Shar] Exactly, right.
[Steve] And passing every year, it's like, oh, just a common thing to pass a constitutional amendment.
- [Shar] Yeah.
So if we double the criteria.
- [Steve] Yeah, it's gonna shrink that number.
[Shar] Shrink even more.
What percentage?
It takes away our power as citizens to get amendments even onto the ballot.
[Steve] Yeah, I know when, and we've talked with other groups about this, and I think if you, one of the things that is interesting is that typically when we hold an election, and that's what this is.
Now, you could say it's a constitutional amendment election sort of thing.
It's always been 50 plus one.
And I know that as I was reading people who were saying yes on one, they're saying, well, it's not unusual for groups or organizations, other institutions to have a 60 or more percent margin.
But as you were just saying, I think Shar, that it's not as if we're overwhelmed with amendments, [Shar] Right.
[Steve] just battering us every year on the ballot.
[Shar] Exactly.
[Steve] And as you said, of the ones that get on and it's less than 50% that actually get approval.
So the argument that, oh, we're being overwhelmed by people are gonna come in and put all these constitutional amendments on, some people think it's a spurious argument.
We'll find out.
When you guys address those issues, I mean, do you see this as a threat to democracy in terms of, because we're asking for more than 50 plus one, a different way of getting things on the ballot, all of those pieces coming together.
What was the discussion like when you guys talked this over in your group?
[Lee] Well, we believe very much in one person, one vote.
And that's direct democracy.
What we are dealing with in our present constitution, in its most basic form, the most recent constitutional convention was held in 1912.
[Steve] Wow.
[Lee] And established these things, they expanded the Ohio Bill of Rights, voters have the power of initiative and referendum, which is what we're talking about.
[Steve] Which is this here.
[Lee] And it also established a minimum wage in workers' compensation.
[Steve] Ah.
[Lee] And so the big thing that we're talking about is the power of initiative and referendum.
And in 1912, that was a big movement nationwide at the time to get that kind of- [Steve] The language, yeah, yeah.
[Lee] Strength into the state constitutions, because it wasn't just in Ohio, but all around the country, people were very concerned about politicians becoming corrupted by the fact they were kind of the gateway to things.
[Steve] Yeah, they controlled, yeah, they could get more control that way.
Sure, sure.
[Lee] Yeah.
And so that's why we established this and if it's things that have passed have been passed quite handily.
And so what we want is to make sure that that is retained, because that's an important way that we have of protecting what people say.
People get a little skeptical like, oh Craig, we don't wanna do this again.
And so they'll vote against it.
But sometimes it's very important to vote both sides and get an actual thing.
As it is, if we go with a 60% margin, very, very, very little will come, would come to pass.
[Steve] Get through.
[Lee] And that doesn't mean it's not important.
[Steve] Sure.
[Lee] It might be very important.
And so we want to protect the voters' right to have their say.
[Steve] Okay, well we come back, we can talk more about that.
Because obviously that is the one thing people will say, well, 41% of the people are gonna tell all of us what to do.
And that does seem to fly in the face of our normal way of dealing with democracy.
But then other people have an argument for that as well.
So, back in just a moment, with representatives from the League of Women Voters of Bowling Green.
We're talking about issue one and just in general how we deal with our elections in Ohio.
Back in just a moment here on "The Journal".
Thank you for staying with us here on "The Journal".
Our guests are Lee McLaird and Shar Katzner from the League of Women Voters of Bowling Green.
When we left that last segment, Lee, I know we were talking about the fact that one of the things that happened in 1912, and it was a good history lesson because I think people that puts it in a little more context that that was an opening to try to get the citizens to be more participatory, have more involvement in their government.
This in a way, at least in some people's perspective, feels like it rolls back, it makes public participation less impactful.
It puts more strength it would seem with the government versus the people.
And I know that's kind of the way you described, because if you look at this, it's going to make it more difficult for citizens' initiatives to get on the ballot.
As opposed to, and I know the argument is, well, there's big money that comes in from other places that will sway Ohio voters and that sort of thing.
So when people bring those arguments, oh, big money's gonna tell Ohioans what to do from out of state.
What's the response to that?
What's the argument against that argument?
[Shar] Well, my argument would be, right now, like I said, only 7.5% of the petitions actually made it to the ballot.
So how much more special interest would it take to get a citizen initiative onto the ballot?
Now it's gonna take even more money to get the number of signatures that they need to get onto the ballot.
And they already passed an amendment in 2015 to limit special interests from messing with our constitution.
[Steve] Yeah.
[{Shar] So, people will say, well, what about the casino amendments?
Well, we passed an amendment back in 2015 to stop that from happening again.
[Steve] Yeah.
[Shar] So that argument doesn't really hold with me.
So it feels like they're trying to make a problem where there doesn't.
seem to be one.
[Steve] Right.
Yeah, we're trying to fix a problem that really has, if nothing else apparently have addressed it.
[Shar] Right, right [Steve] In other ways.
[Shar] Right, and when you look at the last 50 years of citizen initiated initiatives, there were 40 of those.
11 passed, and of the 11 that passed, 81% passed was 60%.
[Steve] Yeah, so, yeah.
[Shar] So I mean, the majority of them are already passing by 60%.
[Steve] I guess if you could say it again, other people would disagree, but that those amendments that do make it to the ballot have sort of been vetted, [Shar] Right.
[Steve] in a process that appears to be working, because I guess we could say the ones that have passed have generally gotten more than 60%, that would appear to be then not an issue.
[Shar] Right, so why the hurry?
Why put it on in an election where in the last August election there was only 8% voter turnout.
[Steve] Right, yeah.
And that was an August election that dealt because of the issues with redistricting.
Things hadn't gone the way they needed to go.
So we had to have an August election or August primary for those sort of things, [Shar] Right, for those sort of things.
[Steve] which normally would not have been the case.
When I looked online to see the groups that are in support of issue one.
And if you go down the list, it's kind of an interesting list.
I know that there're folks on the no side of it too.
You'll have the Ohio Chamber of Commerce, so Hotel and Lodging Association, Ohio Right to Life, Ohio Restaurant Association, Ohio Republican Party, Ohio Farm Bureau, Ohio Port Council, Buckeye Firearms, Republican National Lawyers Association, National Federation of Independent Businesses, Associated Building Contracts of Ohio.
Is there a reason, I know I guess I can ask them.
[Shar] Yeah.
[Steve] But do you guys have an idea of why those particular groups are in support of issue one?
What is their thought on this?
I know I should be asking them that, but what do you believe is their rationale for being supportive of making it more difficult to get things to a ballot like this in terms of constitutional amendments?
- If we retain the 50% plus one to pass and don't go to the 60%, theoretically, it would be easier to do the whole structure that they've set up to require, for instance, signatures from all 88 counties does in fact, unless you've got a whole army of people willing to volunteer and go out and collect petitions, which is a really great way to do it and that's the way a lot of people do it but when you're after something in particular, it's very helpful to have that cash to hire people to go out and collect signatures.
And that is a lot easier for somebody who's got a lot of spare cash and he wants to gather other people in support and draw not just his own state, but our state and other states and get the thing that he wants to happen because he can afford to deploy people.
[Steve] To deploy people in all of the counties.
[Lee] Yes.
And in many, many states.
[Steve] Yeah, yeah.
[Lee] And so he's got a different perspective on things.
[Steve] Yeah.
Well that's an interesting point because obviously to put together teams that will gather 5% signatures in every county would seemingly yes, require a lot more resource, which does fly kind of in the opposite.
We don't want lots of money coming in here to do this.
That would be the only way to do it.
You would have to deploy signature petition gatherers in all of those counties.
Now, on one hand that would make it more difficult, but it would make it more difficult, especially if you're a running a campaign on not a lot of money, that would make it a little trickier.
So in one way it does seem to be the opposite effect of what you would want to have happen.
It would make it big money driven versus citizen initiative driven.
When you guys talked about this, I mean, were there discussions?
Was there any debate about whether or not this was a good thing within your group?
And I know that the people, we don't have everybody here to talk to them, but what was the feel for this when it came down?
Obviously, your group came down and said, "Look, we think this is a no vote."
But were there people within your group that said, "Well, no, we think this is a good idea?"
[Lee] There was a lot of indecision.
[Steve] Okay.
[Lee] At first we had to talk about what various things were.
We wanted to make sure that people had the right and the real basic thing is that 50% plus one vote, [Steve] Sure.
[Lee] is the people's voice.
[Steve] Right.
[Lee] And that's what we should follow.
And so if that's the most important thing, and you wanna make sure that that's engaged.
[Steve] Yeah.
[Lee] And this issue will wind up affecting more than just one or two issues that you think are going to be on the ballot.
It's all kinds of things.
[Steve] Sure.
[Lee] Because of the way the Constitution is written at the time in 1912, they said, we'll do 75 million or something like that.
I don't know, remember what the specific figure was to build bridges, for instance, and do roadwork.
[Steve] Oh yeah.
[Lee] Well it can't buy that for that kind of money anymore.
You have to pass an amendment on it.
[Steve] Yeah.
[Lee] And in order to get that money.
And then there's other topics that come up that people will be interested in and concerned about building hospitals, building schools, and keeping them up to date and things like that, that will be affected by this.
And we wanna make sure that the people still have what they need to be able to put on the ballot and then endorse or oppose, depending, because- - I know Shar you wanna jump here.
We need to take a quick break.
[Shar] That's okay.
- We'll come back in just a moment because there's a couple of questions too with the 60% thing, I have a question about that.
[Lee] Okay.
- Back in just a moment here on "The Journal" we're talking with the League of Women Voters of Bowling Green about issue one, back in just a moment.
August 8th, Ohioans will vote on issue one, which will deal with how we deal with constitutional amendments here in the state and how we actually get constitutional amendments on the ballot in Ohio.
We're with the League of Women Voters of Bowling Green.
I know that Shar Katzner you wanted to jump in toward the end of that segment.
So go ahead and yeah, jump right in.
[Shar] I just, the thing that I wanted to point out too is that a lot of people wanna compare the Ohio Constitution with the US Constitution.
[Steve] Okay.
[Shar] And that there are two very different types of documents and that the US Constitution is the framework for our whole country.
Whereas you'll hear a lot of thing about states' rights and the state constitution is a living document and it's meant to change and it's meant to have citizen input.
And the way that we change that living document is through these citizens initiatives.
That path is one of the ways that we have the power when our elected officials are failing us.
[Steve] Yeah, we don't feel that they're acting in the interest that we think they should be.
[Shar] Right.
[Steve] Yeah.
Now, one of the arguments, and I looked obviously at both sides of this, they will say, well, all of these organizations or a lot of them, not all of them, they're of the people, some of them that are opposed to organizations and there's a list of those too, that are in against this.
Well, all of their bylaws say 60% or more.
So why is it okay for them, but not for the Ohio Constitution?
What's the response to that?
Because my first thought was, well those are two entirely different things, but okay.
[Shar] Yeah, I mean, they're private organizations and if you don't want to be in that group, you can choose not to be in that group or leave it.
And this is a public document.
We live in Ohio as public citizens.
[Steve] Yeah.
[Shar] It's not that easy just to leave Ohio.
I guess you could.
[Steve] Well, and I guess as we walk back a little bit on this too, that as some of the statistics you've both brought forward indicate that it isn't as if we've been overwhelmed with a flood of constitutional amendments and we just do this sort of willy-nilly whenever, it was on a whim and changed the Ohio constitution.
[Shar] And hundreds of them have barely passed by 50 plus one.
I mean, that's not the case.
[Steve] Yeah.
And it's you have very few things make it to the ballot.
Very few things pass once they get there.
Is there any, I mean, and you guys obviously talked to your cohorts, colleagues around the state.
Is this the general consensus kind of for the League of Women Voters?
They see this as an issue, [Lee] Oh, yes.
- Oh, yes.
[Steve] that needs to be dealt with?
[Lee] Yes, this is statewide.
- [Steve] Yeah.
[Lee] That we're taking issue.
[Steve] Yeah, yeah.
[Shar] Very seriously.
[Steve] Yeah.
And I guess when you look at this, one of the things I looked at too, and I thought, okay, so does this, I know we're talking the constitutional amendment section here, but does this eventually, 'cause sometimes when something gets in place it begins to sift down through the system.
Will it become a situation where any issue on the ballot has to pass by 60%?
So if the city of Bowling Green decides it wants to do something, oh, 60% approval.
[Shar] Right.
[Steve] If a school system wants to put a levee on the ballot, it's 60% approval.
Those are, I mean, that could really change how we function as a government, [Shar] Yes.
- with all these government entities.
And you just wonder, because once something like this sort of gets in place, does it then say, well, [Shar] Well that's how it is here.
[Steve] Good here.
Why not do it everywhere, yeah.
[Shar] Yeah.
[Steve] Let's not do it everywhere.
[Shar] Yeah.
[Steve] And I guess I always looked at it and said, well, would we get to a point where if you wanna be elected to an office, would you have to have 60% because there are places where you end up in a runoff.
So that is a possibility.
Now, I doubt seriously, maybe I'm wrong that the Ohio legislature would put that in effect for themselves.
[Shar] Effect for themselves.
[Steve] But then again, 'cause we usually aren't good at putting rules on ourselves in any situation.
[Shar] I mean, they already broke their own law, so I don't think they would do that.
[Steve] Yeah, yeah.
There were never supposed to be any other August elections because of the low turnout, lack of interest, cost, all of that.
But then the argument is, well, but this is a really important thing.
That's why we have to put this on the ballot right now.
If you wanted to tell people what's the most important thing they should look at with this and a little bit too of like where they could go to find more information, where they could go to find out to make sure they can cast their ballot.
Because obviously early voting's begun already for this, and we talked with Wood County Board of Elections about that last week.
What are the specific things that people need to know about how this will affect the rest of their lives in Ohio if this goes into effect?
What are the downsides that you see for this?
[Shar] I would say the biggest downside, I think is how to get it on that the ability to get a citizen measure is gonna be so much harder.
So even to get it onto the ballot is gonna be so much more difficult.
[Steve] Yeah.
When, and I guess too, and we look at the fact that yeah, besides the margin, which we talked about the 60% thing.
Just that mechanism now becomes much more expensive.
Which again, seems to fly in the opposite.
And ironically, I know the story is out there too, that one of the proponents of yes on one is an out-of-state donor, [Shar] Oh, for sure.
[Steve] with huge amounts of money.
And the response is, well see, that's exactly the point we're making.
He shouldn't have that kind of power.
[Shar] Right.
[Steve] But it's okay, it's an interesting thing.
[Shar] Oh, right, exactly.
[Lee] In our state.
[Steve] In our state, yeah.
In our state, yeah.
- Yeah.
[Shar] And then this issue [Steve] Yeah.
[Shar] would only have to pass by 50%.
and a low turnout.
[Steve] Yeah, yeah.
And a low turnout election, which August will be, I mean, I know when we did the August last year, now but it was a one issue, it was primary.
[Shar] Yeah.
[Steve] It was a congressional primary, which meant people came in and said, well, this is all that's on the ballot?
It's like, well, yeah, this is all.
And it was almost like, well, I showed up for this?
[Shar] Exactly.
- So it'll be interesting to see whether, what the response is in terms of turnout and everything.
Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you guys wanna talk about real quickly that I haven't asked you about?
I mean, we've kind of talked about this.
If people want to get more involved in the League of Women Voters, what's the best way to go about that?
How do they, obviously go online and find your website and your social media, that kind of thing?
[Lee] Yes, very good.
If you go to the state website, League of Women Voters of Ohio website, you'll be able to find a link that goes to each individual local unit.
[Steve] Oh, okay.
[Lee] And that will tell you, and that if that unit has a website as we do.
Thank you, Shar.
[Steve] You're the webmaster.
- Well actually, she's doing the Facebook.
[Steve] Social media.
Oh, Facebook.
- Social media stuff.
[Steve] Social media, okay.
- We have some good people here.
[Steve] Yeah, yeah.
- And it will explain what you need to do, which is really very simple to just kind of show up.
[Steve] Yeah.
- And at meetings and would love to have you come.
And we're a variety group and we do research on all kinds of situations, questions.
We have a Voter Information Committee.
We have a committee on land use.
We have a committee on mental health, [Shar] Mental health.
- and things like that.
Just a variety of things that we have been very interested in.
And we do take positions on things like this.
We'll have a formal position and it'll be written up on our website.
[Steve] And the rationale and why you came to that conclusion.
[Lee] Yeah.
[Steve] Yeah.
[Lee] And just to explain it.
And so if that's of interest to you, then that might be the way to go.
I like to tell people that if you wanna join, you can join and find out what it's like and follow whatever interests you.
And you can spend as much time on it as your schedule and your interest allow.
[Steve] Not a bad arrangement.
Yeah, good.
Well, Lee McLaird, Shar Katzner, thank you so much for being on.
You can check us out at wbgu.org.
You can watch us every Thursday night at 8:00 PM on WBGU-PBS.
We'll see you again next time.
Good night and good luck.
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