1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:03,766 GEOFF BENNETT: The mass shooting in Texas this weekend is yet another 2 00:00:03,766 --> 00:00:08,766 stark reminder of the pervasiveness of guns in American society. There are 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,533 hundreds of millions of firearms in circulation across the U.S. 4 00:00:12,533 --> 00:00:15,633 A new book explores some of the forces behind that 5 00:00:15,633 --> 00:00:18,400 saturation and the political culture that goes with it. 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,366 Here's William Brangham. 7 00:00:20,366 --> 00:00:23,900 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Back in 2020, a year of a global pandemic and ongoing social unrest, 8 00:00:26,100 --> 00:00:28,833 millions of Americans bought guns, 9 00:00:28,833 --> 00:00:33,733 including nearly eight-and-a-half-million who had never purchased a firearm before. 10 00:00:33,733 --> 00:00:38,700 A new book focuses on the people who sold all those weapons and the role that they 11 00:00:40,733 --> 00:00:44,466 play in American society and politics. It's called "Merchants of the Right: 12 00:00:45,933 --> 00:00:48,033 Gun Sellers and the Crisis of American Democracy." 13 00:00:48,033 --> 00:00:52,100 And it's by University of Arizona sociologist Jennifer Carlson, 14 00:00:52,100 --> 00:00:56,233 who we talked with last year for our "NewsHour" documentary "Ricochet." 15 00:00:56,233 --> 00:00:59,200 Dr. Carlson, so good to have you back on the news. 16 00:01:01,166 --> 00:01:05,233 Your book documents this remarkable surge of people who purchased guns during this 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,800 stretch of 2020. And before we get to the central point about the gun sellers, 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,333 can you just tell us a little bit about who was it that was buying all those weapons? 19 00:01:18,366 --> 00:01:20,400 JENNIFER CARLSON, University of Arizona: Thank you so much for having me on the program. 20 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,233 Yes, most definitely, in 2020, there was a massive surge in gun purchasing. And while 21 00:01:26,266 --> 00:01:30,433 there was still the sort of typical gun buyer, in terms of demographic profile of 22 00:01:32,433 --> 00:01:36,833 being a white conservative man who is married, owns multiple guns, in fact, 23 00:01:36,833 --> 00:01:41,833 what we saw during 2020 and into 2021 was a shift in that -- in that profile. 24 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,933 So, people who had never bought a gun, who had never considered buying a gun were suddenly lining 25 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,933 up at gun stores and clearing the shelves. You had people who were not just first-time gun buyers, 26 00:01:54,933 --> 00:01:58,133 but racialized minorities, women, members of the LGBTQ community, and even liberals. 27 00:02:00,233 --> 00:02:04,133 And so all of those groups were sort of coming in to gun stores, trying to figure 28 00:02:04,133 --> 00:02:08,100 out, according to the conversations that I was having with gun sellers, 29 00:02:09,933 --> 00:02:13,933 what to do in this moment of just profound uncertainty and insecurity. 30 00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:17,233 And so what they came up with was, buy a gun. 31 00:02:17,233 --> 00:02:20,333 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: One of the most interesting things, I think, in your book is the -- is the 32 00:02:20,333 --> 00:02:25,333 reaction of the different gun sellers you spoke with to this sudden new population of gun buyers, 33 00:02:27,466 --> 00:02:29,800 people who are not traditionally their customers. 34 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,800 Can you explain a little bit about how they viewed the -- that new customer base? 35 00:02:36,666 --> 00:02:39,400 JENNIFER CARLSON: I think that there was definitely a lot of glee, 36 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,600 excitement, enthusiasm about these new gun buyers. 37 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,600 They saw it as a vindication of the appeal of gun rights as a basic human right, as something that 38 00:02:51,500 --> 00:02:56,466 transcends demographics, as something that anybody could turn to for safety and security. Of course, 39 00:02:59,033 --> 00:03:02,166 there was a limit to that. And the limit was the liberal gun buyer. They would come down and say, 40 00:03:04,066 --> 00:03:07,833 yes, but I'm a little bit -- in so many words, I'm concerned about the liberals. 41 00:03:07,833 --> 00:03:11,933 Are they just going to be an irresponsible gun owner? Are they going to understand the 42 00:03:11,933 --> 00:03:15,766 politics that they're signing up for? And so there was an interesting sort of bait 43 00:03:15,766 --> 00:03:20,333 and switch in terms of how they understood these -- these new gun buyers as, you know, 44 00:03:20,333 --> 00:03:25,333 very much embracing the diversity, but also really drilling down on the partisanship. 45 00:03:26,766 --> 00:03:28,733 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Every one of the gun sellers you spoke to 46 00:03:30,666 --> 00:03:34,566 seemed to say that politics was inextricable from their professions, and that you wrote 47 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:41,133 early on in the book that gun sellers sell guns, but they also build political culture. 48 00:03:41,133 --> 00:03:43,133 Can you explain a little bit about that? 49 00:03:43,133 --> 00:03:47,200 JENNIFER CARLSON: So, absolutely, gun sellers use the point of sale as a way 50 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:52,200 to instruct especially first-time gun buyers about what it means to have gun regulations. 51 00:03:54,766 --> 00:03:58,333 So, one of the things that they often brought up, especially the gun sellers in states where there 52 00:04:00,333 --> 00:04:02,700 were waiting periods, that people would come in wanting their gun immediately, 53 00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:05,566 feeling -- and we can all go back to that sense of urgency, like, 54 00:04:05,566 --> 00:04:10,566 I need my toilet paper, I need my -- and gun sellers would say, this is what gun control is. 55 00:04:12,566 --> 00:04:16,200 And so they actually used it as a way to sort of instruct these first-time gun buyers. There 56 00:04:18,166 --> 00:04:20,633 were also very explicit examples that gun sellers told me about where one gun seller 57 00:04:20,633 --> 00:04:24,700 actually talked about this. He described him as a kid, which he obviously wasn't a 58 00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:29,700 kid if he was purchasing a gun from a licensed dealer -- came in with a Bernie Sanders shirt. 59 00:04:31,133 --> 00:04:33,933 And this gun seller told me how, basically, he had to 60 00:04:33,933 --> 00:04:38,933 politically reeducate this buyer. So there was definitely this sense that they were not just 61 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,766 selling guns, that they were the front line of a particular political culture. 62 00:04:43,766 --> 00:04:47,733 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: You don't necessarily deal with this in your book, but I wonder, 63 00:04:49,666 --> 00:04:53,466 given the ongoing gun tragedies we see of the murder rate with guns, the mass shootings, 64 00:04:55,333 --> 00:04:59,900 these shoot-first, ask-questions-later accidents we have been seeing recently, 65 00:04:59,900 --> 00:05:04,300 how do you imagine that gun sellers see themselves in the midst of that crisis? 66 00:05:04,300 --> 00:05:07,833 Do they see themselves as a part of that, a cause of that, 67 00:05:07,833 --> 00:05:11,066 an antidote to that? How do they - - how do they wrestle with that? 68 00:05:11,066 --> 00:05:15,633 JENNIFER CARLSON: I think one of the reasons that this has -- is so intractable and that we 69 00:05:15,633 --> 00:05:20,633 are in this sort of mutually exclusive debate that doesn't seem to ever go 70 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:27,000 anywhere is because we have actually created a society in which guns are the only answer. 71 00:05:28,566 --> 00:05:32,300 So, when we look back at the decades of defunding of social welfare, 72 00:05:33,733 --> 00:05:35,666 when we look at the defunding of the mental health care system, 73 00:05:35,666 --> 00:05:40,433 when we look at the recent data that's coming out on mortality rates among Americans, 74 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,600 we very clearly can see that there is not a social safety net in this country. 75 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,233 And so when you -- all of those things wither away and fray and you're left with a firearm, 76 00:05:53,266 --> 00:05:55,733 it becomes very difficult to imagine things beyond the firearm as solutions. 77 00:05:55,733 --> 00:06:00,733 When I interviewed gun sellers and ask them about gun sales, and who were you selling to, 78 00:06:02,633 --> 00:06:06,066 but also, who were you not selling to, gun sellers were pretty inquisitive in terms of, 79 00:06:08,033 --> 00:06:11,700 why are you buying this gun? What do you want to do with it? What's your level of training? 80 00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:16,700 And so I think that there is a big emphasis on firearm safety and responsibility. The thing, 81 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,800 though, is that it's not something that they want 82 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,500 to see involving gun law. They don't want the government to mandate that. 83 00:06:25,500 --> 00:06:30,500 This is not an anti-gun book. This is not a book that's -- actually, the conclusions talk a lot 84 00:06:33,033 --> 00:06:36,300 about the new gun buyers of 2020 and 2021 and what they might mean in terms of the politics of the 85 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:43,200 U.S. But what it is, is a book that asks us to think beyond guns as the sole solution to how we 86 00:06:45,733 --> 00:06:50,300 think about ourselves as citizens and how we think about ourselves as members of society together. 87 00:06:51,766 --> 00:06:53,266 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, the book is "Merchants of the Right: 88 00:06:53,266 --> 00:06:56,333 Gun Sellers and the Crisis of American Democracy. 89 00:06:56,333 --> 00:06:58,633 Jennifer Carlson, thank you so much for being here. 90 00:06:58,633 --> 00:07:00,233 JENNIFER CARLSON: Thank you for having me.