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GEOFF BENNETT: The fate of
the Amazon rainforest is
a new hands after Brazil's

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closest election in
decades. President-Elect,
Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva
called Lula for short,

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made fighting the climate crisis
and protecting the Amazon, a
cornerstone of his campaign,

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deforestation accelerated
under current president
Jair Bolsonaro. In the first

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half of 2022, the Amazon
lost an area five times
the size of New York City.

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Joining us now to talk
more about the future
of the world's largest
rainforest is Michael Mann.

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He's Presidential Distinguished
Professor and Director of
the Center for Science,

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sustainability and the Media at
the University of Pennsylvania.
He's also the author of,

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"The New Climate War."
Thanks for being with us.

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MICHAEL MANN, author, "The New
Climate War": Thanks, Geoff.
It's great to be with you.

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GEOFF BENNETT: So, over the past
50 years, the Amazon has lost
about 17% of its total forest,

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help us understand why
the world's largest
rainforest is important
to the global ecosystem?

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MICHAEL MANN: Yeah. Well, it's
important in lots of ways,
obviously. The Amazon is a

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source of extensive
biodiversity. Many of
the medicines that we've
developed in, you know,

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in recent time have come, for
example, from plants that grow
in that unique environment.

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But when it comes to the climate
crisis, the Amazon is one of the

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most important carbon sinks on
the planet, it literally sucks
carbon out of the atmosphere,

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and it buries it beneath the
ground in its root systems
and in the leaf litter that's

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get gets buried. And so,
it's a very important way
that the Earth system has

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to moderate the concentration
of CO2 in the atmosphere
of carbon dioxide.

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And when we destroy
rainforests, when we deforest,
when we burn the wood,

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when we clear it, that
puts carbon back into the
atmosphere. And so there have

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been some estimates that if
we continue on the course that
we've been on in recent decades,

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then the Amazon rainforest
will go from being in
a very important carbon
sink, it's helping take

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carbon out of the atmosphere,
it will become a carbon source,
it will actually be adding to

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the net carbon pollution
in the atmosphere. So, it's
critical that we reverse course,

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and stop the continued
destruction of this
very important component
of the Earth system.

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GEOFF BENNETT: It's
interesting because Brazil
had once been a model for
conservation, protecting

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indigenous lands, cracking down
on illegal logging, and closely
monitoring forest loss that

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was rolled back under
Bolsonaro. He was a real
unapologetic cheerleader
for the exploitation of

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the Amazon. What are some
measures you believe would help
restore the Amazon rainforest?

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MICHAEL MANN: Yeah, I'm
encouraged by much of
what da Silva has said.
I'm encouraged by the

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Brazilian electorate. The people
demanded a better environmental
stewardship and climate

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action as somebody who will
take them on a different
course. And what that different

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course will look like is
protecting these rainforests,
not continuing to allow them to

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be destroyed for farming,
or for mining or other
commercial purposes. So,
we can still ensure that

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the Amazon remains a carbon
sink that it helps us when it
comes to the climate crisis. But

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that will only be true if we
act quickly, if we reverse
those previous policies.

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GEOFF BENNETT: As, you
know, COP27, the U.N.
Climate Change Conference
is currently underway,

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thinking globally, I
mean how important is the
restoration of the Amazon,

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to reaching our overall
climate change goals?

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MICHAEL MANN: Yeah,
it's critical.

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And it sort of relates
to a larger problem,
which is, you know, the
industrial countries of

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the world, the United States
is the world's largest
cumulative carbon polluter. Now,

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we need to make sure
that the developing
world and that includes
countries in South America,

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countries in Africa, Indonesia,
we need to make sure that these
countries don't make the same

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mistake that we made
massive deforestation and
the development of fossil
fuel energy infrastructure.

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We've got to make sure
that they don't make the
mistakes that we made,

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because we can't afford
for them to do that. Or
we will blow past those

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targets that we talk
about for keeping warming
below catastrophic levels.

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And to do that, we've
got to provide incentives
and this has been one of
the problems in recent

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COP meetings. The developing
world feels like the major
industrial powers of the

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world haven't provided the
resources that they had promised
to in the form of leases,

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in the form of grants
and assistance to help
them leapfrog, pass
this industrial stage,

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pass this fossil fuel stage
directly into a clean energy
economy that will not take

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us further down this path of
carbon energy dependence and
catastrophic climate change.

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GEOFF BENNETT: Michael Mann is
the Director of the Center for
Science, Sustainability and the

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Media at the University
of Pennsylvania. Thanks
as always for your
insights. Good to see you.

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MICHAEL MANN: You
too, Geoff. Thanks.