1 00:00:02,100 --> 00:00:05,533 JUDY WOODRUFF: Smartphones have surely changed the way we live, including the way kids interact 2 00:00:05,533 --> 00:00:09,000 with and use that technology every day. 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,133 There are growing concerns about what that is doing to kids. 4 00:00:12,133 --> 00:00:15,366 And that is the focus that John Yang has for us tonight. 5 00:00:15,366 --> 00:00:17,766 It's part of our weekly segment, Making the Grade. 6 00:00:17,766 --> 00:00:22,766 JOHN YANG: Judy, earlier this month, two big shareholders in Apple jumped into this debate. 7 00:00:25,333 --> 00:00:28,533 Together, JANA Partners, an investment management firm, and the California State Teachers Retirement 8 00:00:29,900 --> 00:00:33,133 System own about $2 billion worth of Apple stock. 9 00:00:33,133 --> 00:00:37,333 They called on the iPhone maker to come up with ways for parents to restrict the amount 10 00:00:37,333 --> 00:00:42,333 of time children spend on iPhones and to study the effect heavy usage has on kids' mental 11 00:00:42,866 --> 00:00:45,366 health. 12 00:00:45,366 --> 00:00:48,866 To discuss this, we're joined by Charles Penner, a partner at JANA Partners, and by Jean Twenge, 13 00:00:51,366 --> 00:00:54,933 a San Diego State University psychology professor and the author of "iGen: Why Today's Super-Connected 14 00:00:56,900 --> 00:01:01,633 Kids Are Growing Up Less Rebellious, More Tolerant, Less Happy, and Completely Unprepared 15 00:01:02,433 --> 00:01:03,666 for Adulthood." 16 00:01:03,666 --> 00:01:05,666 Thanks to you both for joining us. 17 00:01:05,666 --> 00:01:08,466 Dr. Twenge, let me begin with you. 18 00:01:08,466 --> 00:01:13,033 I think I know the answer from what -- from the title of your book, but what can you tell 19 00:01:13,033 --> 00:01:17,766 us about what the research says about kids and iPhones? 20 00:01:17,766 --> 00:01:22,766 JEAN TWENGE, Author, "iGen": So, iGen is the first generation to spend their entire adolescence 21 00:01:23,500 --> 00:01:25,200 with smartphones. 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,633 And that's had ripple effects across many areas of their lives. 23 00:01:28,633 --> 00:01:31,133 And one place that's showing up is in their mental health. 24 00:01:31,133 --> 00:01:36,133 So, right around 2012, in these big samples of teens, there was a sudden and pretty large 25 00:01:38,133 --> 00:01:43,000 jump in symptoms of depression and anxiety and even clinical-level depression and suicide 26 00:01:45,533 --> 00:01:48,300 among teens. 27 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:52,400 And that happened right at the same time that smartphones became common. 28 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:57,400 So, there's also lots of studies showing links between mental health issues and time spent 29 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,400 on electronic devices, such as smartphones. 30 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,400 So, for example, teens who spend five or more hours a day on electronic devices are 71 percent 31 00:02:08,833 --> 00:02:13,700 more likely to have at least one risk factor for suicide compared to teens who spend less 32 00:02:13,700 --> 00:02:15,666 than an hour a day. 33 00:02:15,666 --> 00:02:19,866 JOHN YANG: And what makes smartphones different from, say, television or video games? 34 00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:25,433 JEAN TWENGE: Well, smartphones can be carried into the bedroom. 35 00:02:25,433 --> 00:02:26,933 They're more portable. 36 00:02:26,933 --> 00:02:30,400 So, they may interfere with sleep. 37 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,766 And, sure enough, the percentage of teens who don't sleep enough also spiked right around 38 00:02:34,766 --> 00:02:36,233 2012. 39 00:02:36,233 --> 00:02:38,433 And that's a major risk factor for mental health issues. 40 00:02:38,433 --> 00:02:41,700 They can also be carried out of the house wherever you go. 41 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:46,700 So that means that teens are often spending lots of time on those devices even when they 42 00:02:47,866 --> 00:02:50,200 are with their friends in person. 43 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,233 So, with that said, of course, TV and video games are also linked to mental health issues, 44 00:02:54,233 --> 00:02:59,233 but the link isn't quite as strong as it is for smartphones and for social media. 45 00:03:01,133 --> 00:03:04,933 JOHN YANG: And I know you have said there are some beneficial aspects to smartphone 46 00:03:04,933 --> 00:03:06,233 use by kids. 47 00:03:06,233 --> 00:03:07,733 Is there sort of a sweet spot? 48 00:03:07,733 --> 00:03:10,500 How much is too much time on an iPhone? 49 00:03:10,500 --> 00:03:12,533 JEAN TWENGE: Yes, that's right. 50 00:03:12,533 --> 00:03:17,400 So, teens who don't use digital media at all or don't use smartphones at all are actually 51 00:03:18,866 --> 00:03:21,433 a little less well adjusted than teens who use them a little bit. 52 00:03:21,433 --> 00:03:26,433 So the sweet spot seems to be from less than an hour to an hour or so of use a day. 53 00:03:28,366 --> 00:03:32,366 And it's two -- it's more than two hours, so three hours of use and beyond per day, 54 00:03:32,366 --> 00:03:37,366 that is linked to that considerably higher risk of depression and other mental health 55 00:03:37,833 --> 00:03:39,333 issues. 56 00:03:39,333 --> 00:03:41,033 JOHN YANG: Mr. Penner, let me -- I want to bring you into this. 57 00:03:41,033 --> 00:03:43,866 What sparked this letter to Apple? 58 00:03:43,866 --> 00:03:48,866 And we think of activist shareholders as talking about management changes and direction of 59 00:03:49,466 --> 00:03:50,400 business. 60 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,466 What sparked this letter? 61 00:03:52,466 --> 00:03:53,400 CHARLES PENNER, JANA Partners: We think Apple is a really responsible company, a really 62 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,066 innovative company. 63 00:03:55,066 --> 00:03:57,266 And I think a testament to that is how quickly we reacted to this. 64 00:03:57,266 --> 00:04:02,266 But we did see an opportunity for them to both get out ahead of what we saw as potentially 65 00:04:02,266 --> 00:04:07,266 a developing issue and, quite frankly, burnish their brand with customers by offering parents 66 00:04:09,333 --> 00:04:13,000 optional controls, but better controls that are more robust, in their words, more dynamic, 67 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,433 as Professor Twenge has been talking about, and really kind of respond to the research. 68 00:04:16,433 --> 00:04:18,533 JOHN YANG: You talked about Apple's response. 69 00:04:18,533 --> 00:04:22,733 In their statement, they said that they are always looking out for kids, but they focused 70 00:04:22,733 --> 00:04:27,733 on restricting downloading apps and material, reaching material online, accessing material 71 00:04:29,666 --> 00:04:32,666 online, not limiting the amount of time on it. 72 00:04:32,666 --> 00:04:34,333 Are you satisfied with that response? 73 00:04:34,333 --> 00:04:37,333 CHARLES PENNER: Well, look, it was certainly a great first response. 74 00:04:37,333 --> 00:04:38,966 And we didn't expect anything different. 75 00:04:38,966 --> 00:04:41,700 They're a very socially responsible company. 76 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:46,433 I think the next step will be to, as we said, kind of take the experts, you know, Professor 77 00:04:46,433 --> 00:04:51,433 Twenge, other people we have worked with, including Dr. Michael Rich at Harvard and 78 00:04:53,433 --> 00:04:56,400 Boston Children's Hospital and a ton of other people who are experts on this issue, and 79 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:01,400 even more broadly just child development experts, you know, sit in a room with them, broaden 80 00:05:03,833 --> 00:05:06,533 the discussion beyond just kind of the engineers and the business folks and the design team, 81 00:05:08,933 --> 00:05:12,433 and really kind of redesign the controls from the ground up to be dynamic, to be age-appropriate. 82 00:05:14,466 --> 00:05:17,833 You know, as I think Professor Twenge has maybe mentioned in other contexts, the research 83 00:05:19,933 --> 00:05:24,533 shows that even for the most worrisome aspects, like social media usage, the effects start 84 00:05:24,533 --> 00:05:26,600 to taper off the older you get. 85 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,300 So, you know, really kind of look at all the research and execute on what they have said 86 00:05:31,300 --> 00:05:33,566 they're going to do, which is offer more robust controls. 87 00:05:33,566 --> 00:05:36,033 And we don't have any reason to think that they won't. 88 00:05:36,033 --> 00:05:40,833 JOHN YANG: Jean Twenge, what kind of controls would you want to see iPhone -- or Apple develop? 89 00:05:40,833 --> 00:05:42,833 JEAN TWENGE: Yes. 90 00:05:42,833 --> 00:05:47,733 Well, both based on the research and, as a parent of three iGeners, I have my wish list. 91 00:05:49,666 --> 00:05:54,033 So, one would be some kind of way to shut down the phone at a certain time, say, an 92 00:05:56,033 --> 00:06:00,233 hour before bedtime, and then there's not the temptation to be on it right before bed, 93 00:06:00,233 --> 00:06:03,133 which isn't conducive to good sleep, or in the middle of the night, which is what some 94 00:06:03,133 --> 00:06:05,166 teens do. 95 00:06:05,166 --> 00:06:09,833 Second would be to limit the overall time in a day that that phone could be used, say, 96 00:06:10,733 --> 00:06:12,833 to two hours a day. 97 00:06:12,833 --> 00:06:17,200 And then the third would be, instead of being able to just turn on and off certain apps, 98 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:22,200 that there would be the capability to have certain apps be only used for a certain amount 99 00:06:24,100 --> 00:06:26,066 of time per day. 100 00:06:26,066 --> 00:06:30,466 So, for example, you could say, OK, you can be on Snapchat, but only for an hour a day 101 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,233 or a half-hour a day. 102 00:06:33,233 --> 00:06:36,600 JOHN YANG: Well, Jean Twenge and Charles Penner, I'm afraid our time is up here, but thanks 103 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:37,866 so much for joining us. 104 00:06:37,866 --> 00:06:39,100 CHARLES PENNER: Thank you. 105 00:06:39,100 --> 00:06:39,266 JEAN TWENGE: Thank you.