WEBVTT 00:02.033 --> 00:04.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Following a long legal battle and public debate, House Democrats today release 00:04.933 --> 00:09.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% six years of former President Donald Trump's federal tax returns, documents totaling thousands 00:11.000 --> 00:12.066 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% of pages. 00:12.066 --> 00:14.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Our Lisa Desjardins has more. 00:14.066 --> 00:17.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: These are Trump's personal and business taxes from the years he ran for 00:17.733 --> 00:19.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and served as president. 00:19.900 --> 00:24.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Democrats defend the release as part of a probe into whether the IRS delayed auditing 00:24.133 --> 00:25.633 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% him. 00:25.633 --> 00:27.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But, in a video, Trump blasted the move as a political hit. 00:27.700 --> 00:30.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DONALD TRUMP, Former President of the United States: Although these tax returns contain 00:30.033 --> 00:34.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% relatively little information and not information that almost anybody would understand -- they're 00:36.766 --> 00:41.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% extremely complex -- the radical Democrats' behavior is a shame upon the U.S. Congress. 00:43.133 --> 00:45.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: What information did we learn today? 00:45.600 --> 00:49.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% To discuss, I'm joined by Russ Buettner of The New York Times and Nina Olson, the former 00:49.300 --> 00:50.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% national taxpayer advocate. 00:50.933 --> 00:52.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Russ, let me start with you. 00:52.600 --> 00:53.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% You have looked through these. 00:53.866 --> 00:55.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You have been poring over them all day. 00:55.900 --> 00:58.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We already knew a bit about the bottom line here. 00:58.733 --> 01:03.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The committee last week released these total taxes that the president paid as president. 01:05.766 --> 01:08.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Former President Trump paid from anywhere from a million dollars to nothing in taxes 01:08.833 --> 01:11.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% while in office. 01:11.266 --> 01:14.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But, Russ, tell us, how much more do these documents today tell us about the former president? 01:16.833 --> 01:19.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% RUSS BUETTNER, The New York Times: Well, I think what they do is, they provide sort of 01:19.366 --> 01:24.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% a continuum from reporting we had done previously when we obtained 20 years of his tax returns 01:24.766 --> 01:26.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% a couple of years ago. 01:26.866 --> 01:30.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And you see more of the same, that the businesses that he runs generally report massive losses, 01:32.866 --> 01:35.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% tens of millions of dollars a year. 01:35.400 --> 01:40.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% The businesses that were tied to his entertainment and his licensing operations, they do OK. 01:41.633 --> 01:44.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There's no expense -- expenses associated with running those. 01:44.000 --> 01:47.300 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And it doesn't really require much in the way of business expertise. 01:47.300 --> 01:50.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And he continues to benefit from the inheritance from his father. 01:50.733 --> 01:55.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The one big year that he had in here, 2018, he reported a $24 million positive taxable 01:57.966 --> 02:00.133 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% income. 02:00.133 --> 02:02.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That was the first time in a decade he'd reported a positive taxable income. 02:02.200 --> 02:07.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But underlying that was the sale of $26 million worth of assets he had inherited from his 02:09.800 --> 02:11.833 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% father. 02:11.833 --> 02:15.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So that's what made what was actually a typical year for him, a money-losing year, look like 02:15.266 --> 02:19.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a winning year, was again his inheritance when he is a 70-plus-year-old man sitting 02:19.900 --> 02:22.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in the White House. 02:22.000 --> 02:23.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: Nina, among the reasons we're looking at this, of course, is, he is a candidate 02:23.933 --> 02:25.966 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% again for president. 02:25.966 --> 02:30.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And one thing I note you noticed in these pages was the sheer number of entities that 02:31.533 --> 02:33.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Mr. Trump has set up as part of his business. 02:33.500 --> 02:37.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You can look here, hundreds of them, more than through 400 listed in 2015. 02:37.866 --> 02:39.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% How unusual is that? 02:39.833 --> 02:42.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, overall, how unusual are these returns for a multimillionaire? 02:42.466 --> 02:45.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% NINA OLSON, Former National Taxpayer Advocate, Internal Revenue Service: Well I think that 02:45.700 --> 02:50.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% for real estate, there's a reason to have maybe multiple entities to hold the asset 02:52.733 --> 02:55.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% than to hold management to hold -- if you're doing hotel management, you might have an 02:55.700 --> 02:57.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% entity doing reservations. 02:57.966 --> 03:02.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What's fascinating about these are that -- the breadth of them, and that they cover many, 03:03.733 --> 03:06.066 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% many countries. 03:06.066 --> 03:09.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And so when you have someone who's the president of the United States with holdings in all 03:09.166 --> 03:14.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% those countries, that's something that is maybe concerning from a national security 03:14.633 --> 03:16.633 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% issue. 03:16.633 --> 03:20.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think that these are maybe not on the scale of 400 different pass-throughs. 03:22.566 --> 03:27.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But, generally, wealthy people will have a number of pass-through entities associated 03:27.966 --> 03:28.900 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% with them. 03:28.900 --> 03:30.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But these are very, very many. 03:30.933 --> 03:33.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: Nina, of course, the big question we keep coming back to, there's a 03:33.200 --> 03:38.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% public debate over, how does someone like Donald Trump pay zero in taxes during some 03:38.933 --> 03:40.133 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% years? 03:40.133 --> 03:41.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What did you learn from these documents? 03:41.700 --> 03:44.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And what do you think this says about our overall tax system? 03:44.500 --> 03:49.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NINA OLSON: Yes, what you really see is the role of carried back -- net operating losses 03:52.033 --> 03:57.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that are carried forward for years, charitable contribution deductions that can't be taken 03:59.066 --> 04:01.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in a given year and eat up all your income, and then you can carry it back or carry it 04:01.400 --> 04:03.533 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% forward. 04:03.533 --> 04:07.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% The Trump hotel had a rehabilitation credit that was carried back a year and can go forward 04:08.366 --> 04:10.900 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% for 20. 04:10.900 --> 04:15.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And what that does -- what's really interesting is that Congress back in 1967 tried to deal 04:17.333 --> 04:20.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% with the fact that there were millionaires that had not paid any taxes, and they created 04:21.233 --> 04:23.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the Alternative Minimum Tax. 04:23.266 --> 04:27.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, in many of these years, practically every single one of them, the former president was 04:30.233 --> 04:33.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% hit with the Alternative Minimum Tax, because it means, if you use all these tracks preferences, 04:34.166 --> 04:36.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you may be able to eliminate your taxes. 04:36.200 --> 04:40.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so they make you add things back in, but, still, other credits ate away and offset even 04:43.100 --> 04:45.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the Alternative Minimum Tax. 04:45.100 --> 04:47.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that's clearly something Congress needs to look at. 04:47.400 --> 04:51.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: Russ, I wonder what you think about you have learned about our tax system 04:51.333 --> 04:53.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in the modern age from this. 04:53.333 --> 04:57.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% RUSS BUETTNER: Well, I think what you're saying is a good point, that there are ways that 04:57.566 --> 05:02.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% wealthy people with a lot of assets and good accountants can get out of paying taxes. 05:02.500 --> 05:07.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think one of the big ones that Donald Trump is uniquely positioned to benefit from is 05:09.466 --> 05:12.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the ability to have businesses that are losing money and to use that loss to write off your 05:14.600 --> 05:19.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% income tax, to reduce your income taxes on something like a job on television. 05:19.033 --> 05:22.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% His job on television had no expenses associated with it at all. 05:22.933 --> 05:26.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% He just showed up and he was filmed and edited to look like he looked. 05:26.533 --> 05:31.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He made some years $20 million from that, $200 million just from being on television. 05:33.500 --> 05:37.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And he was able to use the losses from his golf courses and his hotels to reduce that 05:38.400 --> 05:39.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% taxable income. 05:39.866 --> 05:42.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That's not something that's widely available to most of us. 05:42.833 --> 05:47.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I -- Nina mentioned some of the charitable deductions. 05:47.166 --> 05:48.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% That's another case. 05:48.166 --> 05:49.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He bought some land. 05:49.500 --> 05:50.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He tried to develop it. 05:50.900 --> 05:52.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He couldn't develop it. 05:52.033 --> 05:54.133 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% He failed. 05:54.133 --> 05:58.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But then he placed a valuation it with a credible appraiser and a credible accountant that said 05:58.000 --> 05:59.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it was worth $21 million. 05:59.666 --> 06:02.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It made it sound like it could be developed. 06:02.133 --> 06:03.566 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% And it couldn't. 06:03.566 --> 06:05.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The IRS, after some pressure, decided to look at that. 06:05.866 --> 06:10.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And they have now decided it's worth somewhere between zero and $8 million as a tax write-off. 06:10.866 --> 06:15.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Those are things that most people couldn't find a way to do that can reduce your income 06:16.600 --> 06:18.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% tax burden down to zero. 06:18.233 --> 06:22.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% LISA DESJARDINS: Nina, just in 30 seconds, this was unprecedented. 06:22.333 --> 06:26.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What do you make of the idea of a House committee releasing the taxes of any individual? 06:26.333 --> 06:31.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NINA OLSON: Well, I'm very worried that this becomes a pattern in the future. 06:33.300 --> 06:36.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The confidentiality of tax returns is very important in getting people to continue to 06:36.400 --> 06:39.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% file their tax returns with the government. 06:39.666 --> 06:44.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% On the other hand, this -- these tax returns are a road map to what's wrong with our tax 06:46.666 --> 06:50.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% system and what we need to reform that you might not get from some abstract discussion. 06:52.133 --> 06:55.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: Nina Olson and Russ Buettner, thank you so much for helping us. 06:55.500 --> 06:58.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Good luck reading through these.