1 00:00:02,033 --> 00:00:04,933 JUDY WOODRUFF: Following a long legal battle and public debate, House Democrats today release 2 00:00:04,933 --> 00:00:09,933 six years of former President Donald Trump's federal tax returns, documents totaling thousands 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:12,066 of pages. 4 00:00:12,066 --> 00:00:14,066 Our Lisa Desjardins has more. 5 00:00:14,066 --> 00:00:17,733 LISA DESJARDINS: These are Trump's personal and business taxes from the years he ran for 6 00:00:17,733 --> 00:00:19,900 and served as president. 7 00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:24,133 Democrats defend the release as part of a probe into whether the IRS delayed auditing 8 00:00:24,133 --> 00:00:25,633 him. 9 00:00:25,633 --> 00:00:27,700 But, in a video, Trump blasted the move as a political hit. 10 00:00:27,700 --> 00:00:30,033 DONALD TRUMP, Former President of the United States: Although these tax returns contain 11 00:00:30,033 --> 00:00:34,833 relatively little information and not information that almost anybody would understand -- they're 12 00:00:36,766 --> 00:00:41,100 extremely complex -- the radical Democrats' behavior is a shame upon the U.S. Congress. 13 00:00:43,133 --> 00:00:45,600 LISA DESJARDINS: What information did we learn today? 14 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,300 To discuss, I'm joined by Russ Buettner of The New York Times and Nina Olson, the former 15 00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:50,933 national taxpayer advocate. 16 00:00:50,933 --> 00:00:52,600 Russ, let me start with you. 17 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:53,866 You have looked through these. 18 00:00:53,866 --> 00:00:55,900 You have been poring over them all day. 19 00:00:55,900 --> 00:00:58,733 We already knew a bit about the bottom line here. 20 00:00:58,733 --> 00:01:03,700 The committee last week released these total taxes that the president paid as president. 21 00:01:05,766 --> 00:01:08,833 Former President Trump paid from anywhere from a million dollars to nothing in taxes 22 00:01:08,833 --> 00:01:11,266 while in office. 23 00:01:11,266 --> 00:01:14,833 But, Russ, tell us, how much more do these documents today tell us about the former president? 24 00:01:16,833 --> 00:01:19,366 RUSS BUETTNER, The New York Times: Well, I think what they do is, they provide sort of 25 00:01:19,366 --> 00:01:24,033 a continuum from reporting we had done previously when we obtained 20 years of his tax returns 26 00:01:24,766 --> 00:01:26,866 a couple of years ago. 27 00:01:26,866 --> 00:01:30,900 And you see more of the same, that the businesses that he runs generally report massive losses, 28 00:01:32,866 --> 00:01:35,400 tens of millions of dollars a year. 29 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:40,133 The businesses that were tied to his entertainment and his licensing operations, they do OK. 30 00:01:41,633 --> 00:01:44,000 There's no expense -- expenses associated with running those. 31 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,300 And it doesn't really require much in the way of business expertise. 32 00:01:47,300 --> 00:01:50,733 And he continues to benefit from the inheritance from his father. 33 00:01:50,733 --> 00:01:55,700 The one big year that he had in here, 2018, he reported a $24 million positive taxable 34 00:01:57,966 --> 00:02:00,133 income. 35 00:02:00,133 --> 00:02:02,200 That was the first time in a decade he'd reported a positive taxable income. 36 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:07,200 But underlying that was the sale of $26 million worth of assets he had inherited from his 37 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,833 father. 38 00:02:11,833 --> 00:02:15,266 So that's what made what was actually a typical year for him, a money-losing year, look like 39 00:02:15,266 --> 00:02:19,900 a winning year, was again his inheritance when he is a 70-plus-year-old man sitting 40 00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:22,000 in the White House. 41 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,933 LISA DESJARDINS: Nina, among the reasons we're looking at this, of course, is, he is a candidate 42 00:02:23,933 --> 00:02:25,966 again for president. 43 00:02:25,966 --> 00:02:30,366 And one thing I note you noticed in these pages was the sheer number of entities that 44 00:02:31,533 --> 00:02:33,500 Mr. Trump has set up as part of his business. 45 00:02:33,500 --> 00:02:37,866 You can look here, hundreds of them, more than through 400 listed in 2015. 46 00:02:37,866 --> 00:02:39,833 How unusual is that? 47 00:02:39,833 --> 00:02:42,466 And, overall, how unusual are these returns for a multimillionaire? 48 00:02:42,466 --> 00:02:45,700 NINA OLSON, Former National Taxpayer Advocate, Internal Revenue Service: Well I think that 49 00:02:45,700 --> 00:02:50,700 for real estate, there's a reason to have maybe multiple entities to hold the asset 50 00:02:52,733 --> 00:02:55,700 than to hold management to hold -- if you're doing hotel management, you might have an 51 00:02:55,700 --> 00:02:57,966 entity doing reservations. 52 00:02:57,966 --> 00:03:02,933 What's fascinating about these are that -- the breadth of them, and that they cover many, 53 00:03:03,733 --> 00:03:06,066 many countries. 54 00:03:06,066 --> 00:03:09,166 And so when you have someone who's the president of the United States with holdings in all 55 00:03:09,166 --> 00:03:14,166 those countries, that's something that is maybe concerning from a national security 56 00:03:14,633 --> 00:03:16,633 issue. 57 00:03:16,633 --> 00:03:20,700 I think that these are maybe not on the scale of 400 different pass-throughs. 58 00:03:22,566 --> 00:03:27,366 But, generally, wealthy people will have a number of pass-through entities associated 59 00:03:27,966 --> 00:03:28,900 with them. 60 00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:30,933 But these are very, very many. 61 00:03:30,933 --> 00:03:33,200 LISA DESJARDINS: Nina, of course, the big question we keep coming back to, there's a 62 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:38,200 public debate over, how does someone like Donald Trump pay zero in taxes during some 63 00:03:38,933 --> 00:03:40,133 years? 64 00:03:40,133 --> 00:03:41,700 What did you learn from these documents? 65 00:03:41,700 --> 00:03:44,500 And what do you think this says about our overall tax system? 66 00:03:44,500 --> 00:03:49,500 NINA OLSON: Yes, what you really see is the role of carried back -- net operating losses 67 00:03:52,033 --> 00:03:57,033 that are carried forward for years, charitable contribution deductions that can't be taken 68 00:03:59,066 --> 00:04:01,400 in a given year and eat up all your income, and then you can carry it back or carry it 69 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,533 forward. 70 00:04:03,533 --> 00:04:07,400 The Trump hotel had a rehabilitation credit that was carried back a year and can go forward 71 00:04:08,366 --> 00:04:10,900 for 20. 72 00:04:10,900 --> 00:04:15,300 And what that does -- what's really interesting is that Congress back in 1967 tried to deal 73 00:04:17,333 --> 00:04:20,366 with the fact that there were millionaires that had not paid any taxes, and they created 74 00:04:21,233 --> 00:04:23,266 the Alternative Minimum Tax. 75 00:04:23,266 --> 00:04:27,700 And, in many of these years, practically every single one of them, the former president was 76 00:04:30,233 --> 00:04:33,033 hit with the Alternative Minimum Tax, because it means, if you use all these tracks preferences, 77 00:04:34,166 --> 00:04:36,200 you may be able to eliminate your taxes. 78 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,700 And so they make you add things back in, but, still, other credits ate away and offset even 79 00:04:43,100 --> 00:04:45,100 the Alternative Minimum Tax. 80 00:04:45,100 --> 00:04:47,400 And that's clearly something Congress needs to look at. 81 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,333 LISA DESJARDINS: Russ, I wonder what you think about you have learned about our tax system 82 00:04:51,333 --> 00:04:53,333 in the modern age from this. 83 00:04:53,333 --> 00:04:57,566 RUSS BUETTNER: Well, I think what you're saying is a good point, that there are ways that 84 00:04:57,566 --> 00:05:02,500 wealthy people with a lot of assets and good accountants can get out of paying taxes. 85 00:05:02,500 --> 00:05:07,500 I think one of the big ones that Donald Trump is uniquely positioned to benefit from is 86 00:05:09,466 --> 00:05:12,533 the ability to have businesses that are losing money and to use that loss to write off your 87 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:19,033 income tax, to reduce your income taxes on something like a job on television. 88 00:05:19,033 --> 00:05:22,933 His job on television had no expenses associated with it at all. 89 00:05:22,933 --> 00:05:26,533 He just showed up and he was filmed and edited to look like he looked. 90 00:05:26,533 --> 00:05:31,533 He made some years $20 million from that, $200 million just from being on television. 91 00:05:33,500 --> 00:05:37,766 And he was able to use the losses from his golf courses and his hotels to reduce that 92 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:39,866 taxable income. 93 00:05:39,866 --> 00:05:42,833 That's not something that's widely available to most of us. 94 00:05:42,833 --> 00:05:47,166 And I -- Nina mentioned some of the charitable deductions. 95 00:05:47,166 --> 00:05:48,166 That's another case. 96 00:05:48,166 --> 00:05:49,500 He bought some land. 97 00:05:49,500 --> 00:05:50,900 He tried to develop it. 98 00:05:50,900 --> 00:05:52,033 He couldn't develop it. 99 00:05:52,033 --> 00:05:54,133 He failed. 100 00:05:54,133 --> 00:05:58,000 But then he placed a valuation it with a credible appraiser and a credible accountant that said 101 00:05:58,000 --> 00:05:59,666 it was worth $21 million. 102 00:05:59,666 --> 00:06:02,133 It made it sound like it could be developed. 103 00:06:02,133 --> 00:06:03,566 And it couldn't. 104 00:06:03,566 --> 00:06:05,866 The IRS, after some pressure, decided to look at that. 105 00:06:05,866 --> 00:06:10,866 And they have now decided it's worth somewhere between zero and $8 million as a tax write-off. 106 00:06:10,866 --> 00:06:15,866 Those are things that most people couldn't find a way to do that can reduce your income 107 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,233 tax burden down to zero. 108 00:06:18,233 --> 00:06:22,333 LISA DESJARDINS: Nina, just in 30 seconds, this was unprecedented. 109 00:06:22,333 --> 00:06:26,333 What do you make of the idea of a House committee releasing the taxes of any individual? 110 00:06:26,333 --> 00:06:31,333 NINA OLSON: Well, I'm very worried that this becomes a pattern in the future. 111 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:36,400 The confidentiality of tax returns is very important in getting people to continue to 112 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,666 file their tax returns with the government. 113 00:06:39,666 --> 00:06:44,666 On the other hand, this -- these tax returns are a road map to what's wrong with our tax 114 00:06:46,666 --> 00:06:50,133 system and what we need to reform that you might not get from some abstract discussion. 115 00:06:52,133 --> 00:06:55,500 LISA DESJARDINS: Nina Olson and Russ Buettner, thank you so much for helping us. 116 00:06:55,500 --> 00:06:58,000 Good luck reading through these.