1 00:00:02,066 --> 00:00:05,433 JUDY WOODRUFF: The war in the Middle Eastern country Yemen grinds on well into its third 2 00:00:05,433 --> 00:00:07,533 year. 3 00:00:07,533 --> 00:00:11,433 Houthi rebels control much of the country's northwest, including the capital, Sanaa, while 4 00:00:12,900 --> 00:00:16,266 a Saudi-backed government and al-Qaida hold sway elsewhere. 5 00:00:16,266 --> 00:00:19,733 William Brangham has the latest on the U.S. role in this conflict. 6 00:00:19,733 --> 00:00:24,733 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In December alone, according to the U.N., 136 civilians were killed in 7 00:00:26,033 --> 00:00:28,766 airstrikes by the U.S.-backed Saudi-led coalition. 8 00:00:28,766 --> 00:00:31,600 One airstrike cost this man in Northwest Yemen dearly. 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,700 MEGAHED GASSAR, Yemen (through translator): They targeted my house while there were 18 10 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:37,333 to 20 guests. 11 00:00:37,333 --> 00:00:40,766 The whole family was inside, as well as all our cattle. 12 00:00:40,766 --> 00:00:41,866 Everything is gone. 13 00:00:41,866 --> 00:00:43,966 There's nothing left. 14 00:00:43,966 --> 00:00:47,066 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And on Tuesday, the Houthi rebels, whom the Saudis are fighting, fired 15 00:00:47,066 --> 00:00:51,500 another ballistic missile from Yemen towards the Saudi capital of Riyadh. 16 00:00:51,500 --> 00:00:55,566 The missile was intercepted by the kingdom's air defenses, and the Saudis claim it was 17 00:00:55,566 --> 00:00:59,200 manufactured by Iran, which is backing the Houthis. 18 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,466 This was the second failed attack on Riyadh by the Houthis in as many months. 19 00:01:03,466 --> 00:01:08,166 The Trump administration has also repeatedly called out Iran about its involvement in the 20 00:01:08,166 --> 00:01:12,533 conflict, a point driven home dramatically by U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley last week. 21 00:01:12,533 --> 00:01:14,866 NIKKI HALEY, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations: These are the recovered pieces of 22 00:01:14,866 --> 00:01:19,866 a missile fired by Houthi militants from Yemen into Saudi Arabia. 23 00:01:21,433 --> 00:01:25,166 The weapons might as well have had "Made in Iran" stickers all over. 24 00:01:25,166 --> 00:01:29,433 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Meanwhile, the Yemeni people continue to suffer. 25 00:01:29,433 --> 00:01:33,500 This week, according to the Red Cross, the country registered its one-millionth case 26 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:35,500 of cholera. 27 00:01:35,500 --> 00:01:38,500 Health officials say it is the fastest spreading cholera epidemic in history. 28 00:01:38,500 --> 00:01:43,500 And at the same time, millions of Yemenis also live on the brink of famine, a crisis 29 00:01:45,833 --> 00:01:49,133 that's been worsened by the Saudi blockade of ports and border crossings, which has limited 30 00:01:49,133 --> 00:01:52,500 food and humanitarian supplies. 31 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:56,700 On Wednesday, the Saudi-led coalition announced it would keep the Houthi-controlled port of 32 00:01:56,700 --> 00:02:00,633 Hudaydah open for a month to allow aid into the country. 33 00:02:00,633 --> 00:02:02,966 The port had been closed for most of November. 34 00:02:02,966 --> 00:02:07,100 Yesterday, Deputy Assistant Secretary Of State Tim Lenderking welcomed the news. 35 00:02:07,100 --> 00:02:09,633 TIM LENDERKING, U.S. Deputy Secretary of State: The first thing we want to see is ships actually 36 00:02:09,633 --> 00:02:14,600 moving into Hudaydah port, off-loading, providing fuel, water, supplies for the Yemeni people, 37 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,400 filling the hospitals with fuel, so that medical supplies can be dispensed. 38 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,933 Four U.S. cranes will be on their way very shortly to Hudaydah. 39 00:02:22,933 --> 00:02:25,066 We want to see them installed. 40 00:02:25,066 --> 00:02:28,400 We want to see them playing a central role here in off-loading ships. 41 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:33,400 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: While the U.S. is the largest donor of aid to Yemen, U.S. arms manufacturers, 42 00:02:35,333 --> 00:02:38,833 with approval from the U.S. government, also supply the Saudi-led coalition with bombs, 43 00:02:40,766 --> 00:02:44,066 and U.S. military jets refuel those coalition bombers and fighter jets. 44 00:02:44,066 --> 00:02:48,933 On Thursday, U.S. Central Command announced that it had also carried out multiple ground 45 00:02:48,933 --> 00:02:53,933 operations and more than 120 airstrikes in Yemen this year, those attacks apparently 46 00:02:54,833 --> 00:02:57,366 against al-Qaida leaders. 47 00:02:57,366 --> 00:03:00,500 Last summer, the Trump administration announced the potential for billions of dollars of new 48 00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:05,466 arms sales to Saudi Arabia, arms that will no doubt add to the civilian death toll, which, 49 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:09,933 according to the U.N., is over 5,000 and growing. 50 00:03:09,933 --> 00:03:12,833 For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm William Brangham. 51 00:03:12,833 --> 00:03:17,833 JUDY WOODRUFF: To help explain the complex situation in Yemen, I'm joined now by James 52 00:03:18,866 --> 00:03:20,866 Jeffrey. 53 00:03:20,866 --> 00:03:24,866 He served in several senior positions during his 35-year career as a diplomat, including 54 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,066 U.S. ambassador to Turkey and to Iraq, and as President George W. Bush's deputy national 55 00:03:31,333 --> 00:03:32,800 security adviser. 56 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,733 He's now at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. 57 00:03:36,733 --> 00:03:41,733 And Stephen Seche, he was deputy assistant secretary in the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs 58 00:03:43,633 --> 00:03:47,200 at the State Department, responsible for U.S. relations with the Gulf states and Yemen. 59 00:03:48,666 --> 00:03:51,466 He served as U.S. ambassador to Yemen from 2007 to 2010. 60 00:03:51,466 --> 00:03:56,233 He is now at the Arab Gulf States Institute here in Washington. 61 00:03:56,233 --> 00:03:59,333 And we welcome both of you to the program. 62 00:03:59,333 --> 00:04:01,033 Ambassador Seche, I will start with you. 63 00:04:01,033 --> 00:04:04,133 Why has this war dragged on and on? 64 00:04:04,133 --> 00:04:06,133 What is driving it? 65 00:04:06,133 --> 00:04:08,166 STEPHEN SECHE, Former U.S. Ambassador to Yemen: To a large extent, the reason why the war 66 00:04:08,166 --> 00:04:12,800 continued in this fashion is because it sits in a corner of the globe which has not produced 67 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,433 the kind of migration into Europe which the war in Syria has. 68 00:04:16,433 --> 00:04:19,933 So, therefore, the alarm that is raised about the war in Yemen is far diminished from that 69 00:04:19,933 --> 00:04:22,066 that we see given the conflict in Syria. 70 00:04:22,066 --> 00:04:26,900 So, that being away from the public eye and not creating that sense of threat that is 71 00:04:29,366 --> 00:04:31,733 really prolonged and very protracted has worked to a disadvantage of all the people of Yemen 72 00:04:31,733 --> 00:04:35,533 who have suffered on the back pages of our newspapers, and not as much coverage on our 73 00:04:35,533 --> 00:04:37,600 television. 74 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,500 JUDY WOODRUFF: Ambassador Jeffrey, is this a war between the factions inside Yemen, or 75 00:04:40,500 --> 00:04:43,933 is it a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran? 76 00:04:43,933 --> 00:04:46,400 JAMES JEFFREY, Former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq: It's both. 77 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,733 Only about five non-Yemenis, including, unfortunately, Ambassador Seche, understand what's going 78 00:04:50,733 --> 00:04:55,733 on in the many groups inside of Yemen, but rather like Syria, rather like Lebanon and 79 00:04:57,666 --> 00:05:01,966 Iraq, this is part of an overall conflict in the region between Iran on the one hand 80 00:05:04,033 --> 00:05:07,933 and Saudi Arabia, the U.S., Israel and most of the rest of the region on the other. 81 00:05:07,933 --> 00:05:11,533 JUDY WOODRUFF: And what's the main grievance, Ambassador Seche? 82 00:05:11,533 --> 00:05:15,166 The Saudis are saying Iran is threatening the region. 83 00:05:15,166 --> 00:05:20,166 The Iranians are doing what they're trying to do through the Houthis, who are also Shia, 84 00:05:20,900 --> 00:05:23,833 the Shia militia there. 85 00:05:23,833 --> 00:05:25,900 Who has the upper hand in this argument? 86 00:05:25,900 --> 00:05:28,033 STEPHEN SECHE: Well, I think it's important to start with the fact that the Houthis, who 87 00:05:28,033 --> 00:05:33,033 are a part of Yemen's fabric of society, have serious, longstanding grievous with their 88 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,700 government and with the Saudis, for that matter, too. 89 00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:39,200 So this is kind of where the Houthis are coming from. 90 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,600 And they're trying to grab their part of Yemen and its power structure. 91 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:48,200 Now, the Saudis feel very alarmed, and with reason, by the fact the Houthis have taken 92 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:53,200 over a lot of the military weapons in Yemen, a lot of the territory, and now control basically 93 00:05:54,766 --> 00:05:56,433 - - and exercise a real threat that Saudi Arabia finds intolerable. 94 00:05:56,433 --> 00:05:57,433 And I agree with them. 95 00:05:57,433 --> 00:05:59,400 It probably is. 96 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,466 JUDY WOODRUFF: And so it started as something more internal, Ambassador Jeffrey, but it 97 00:06:02,466 --> 00:06:05,733 has grown to be this more regional war. 98 00:06:05,733 --> 00:06:10,033 JAMES JEFFREY: Right, but, I mean, you have to point fingers. 99 00:06:10,033 --> 00:06:15,033 The main reason it's grown to be that is the Iranian strategy to infiltrate into failed 100 00:06:17,033 --> 00:06:20,033 states -- and this is a good example of it - - Lebanon was in the 1980s -- find groups, 101 00:06:20,033 --> 00:06:25,033 typically, but not always, Shia groups, that it can support, and then create sub-governments 102 00:06:26,933 --> 00:06:30,866 and sub-militias within societies -- and I saw that very personally in Iraq -- that are 103 00:06:32,833 --> 00:06:36,200 more loyal to Tehran than they are to their own capitals of Beirut, of Damascus, or Baghdad 104 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:38,866 or Sanaa. 105 00:06:38,866 --> 00:06:42,366 JUDY WOODRUFF: Ambassador Seche, are the Iranians, do they pose the threat that the Saudis and 106 00:06:43,533 --> 00:06:46,066 others say they do in the region? 107 00:06:46,066 --> 00:06:47,533 STEPHEN SECHE: I'm not as persuaded as Ambassador Jeffrey is that the Iranians are the ones 108 00:06:47,533 --> 00:06:49,033 that -- engineers behind this. 109 00:06:49,033 --> 00:06:51,700 This is a homegrown revolt on the part of the Houthis. 110 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:55,100 The Iranians no doubt have gotten more and more involved, as the Saudis have gotten more 111 00:06:55,100 --> 00:06:57,233 and more involved. 112 00:06:57,233 --> 00:07:00,900 So, now I think each of these two rivals are seeing Yemen as an arena in which their interests 113 00:07:00,900 --> 00:07:02,966 can be served. 114 00:07:02,966 --> 00:07:05,233 But I also think that a lot of what we see now, a lot of the humanitarian issue that's 115 00:07:05,233 --> 00:07:09,500 emerged, is a direct result of three years of protracted Saudi airstrikes. 116 00:07:09,500 --> 00:07:14,433 I saw data today from the Yemen Data Project 15,000 airstrikes have been conducted over 117 00:07:14,433 --> 00:07:17,833 Yemen, a country smaller than the state of Texas, over a three-year period. 118 00:07:17,833 --> 00:07:22,833 JUDY WOODRUFF: Why has this grown to be the humanitarian crisis that it is, Ambassador 119 00:07:23,533 --> 00:07:25,566 Jeffrey? 120 00:07:25,566 --> 00:07:27,833 It's one thing for two sides to be fighting each other, but the civilians are the ones 121 00:07:27,833 --> 00:07:29,866 who have taken the hit, for the most part. 122 00:07:29,866 --> 00:07:34,866 JAMES JEFFREY: In almost every conflict I have seen in the Middle East, the conflicts 123 00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:40,166 are actually fought out not in the desert, but in the populated areas. 124 00:07:42,133 --> 00:07:45,233 And all sides use unrestricted airstrikes to make up for typically a lack of infantry 125 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:51,900 troops. 126 00:07:51,900 --> 00:07:54,800 The Saudis in these airstrikes have killed, according to the U.N. report in October, some 127 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:56,833 3,000 civilians. 128 00:07:56,833 --> 00:08:00,733 That's a big number, but it's not all that different than what we have killed in the 129 00:08:00,733 --> 00:08:03,433 conflict against ISIS in Iraq and Syria over the past three years. 130 00:08:03,433 --> 00:08:07,633 JUDY WOODRUFF: But the U.S. is -- not but - - or the U.S. is part of this coalition with 131 00:08:07,633 --> 00:08:10,966 the Saudis that has helped lead to these civilian casualties. 132 00:08:10,966 --> 00:08:15,966 JAMES JEFFREY: Right, and the reason for that, though, is the Saudis and the U.S. fear -- the 133 00:08:17,133 --> 00:08:19,266 two sides aren't equal, Iran and Saudi Arabia. 134 00:08:19,266 --> 00:08:20,766 Yemen borders on Saudi Arabia. 135 00:08:20,766 --> 00:08:21,900 It doesn't border on Iran. 136 00:08:21,900 --> 00:08:23,933 It is a long way from Iran. 137 00:08:23,933 --> 00:08:27,233 More importantly, the Saudis have been seen this movie before in Lebanon. 138 00:08:27,233 --> 00:08:32,233 The Shia group there, Hezbollah, had their own legitimate grievances against Israel and 139 00:08:33,766 --> 00:08:36,233 against their own governments, but they became a front for Iran. 140 00:08:36,233 --> 00:08:39,333 They have over 100,000 missiles right now aimed at Israel. 141 00:08:39,333 --> 00:08:40,766 It's an existential threat. 142 00:08:40,766 --> 00:08:43,533 The Saudis fear, for good reason, the same thing in Yemen. 143 00:08:43,533 --> 00:08:46,933 JUDY WOODRUFF: But you're saying that that fear is overblown? 144 00:08:46,933 --> 00:08:49,033 STEPHEN SECHE: I think the fear is genuine. 145 00:08:49,033 --> 00:08:54,033 I do think it is not quite the fact that Iran has come in here to try to become the archenemy 146 00:08:56,066 --> 00:08:58,966 - - they are already -- of Saudi Arabia, but the Houthis need to be dealt with as a nationalist 147 00:08:58,966 --> 00:09:00,233 movement on their own. 148 00:09:00,233 --> 00:09:02,266 The ironies are taking advantage of this. 149 00:09:02,266 --> 00:09:05,733 They're exploiting a situation which has been created to their benefit, very low investment 150 00:09:05,733 --> 00:09:07,800 and very high reward for the Iranians here. 151 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,300 So, I think what the Saudis need to do is figure out what they can do to extract themselves, 152 00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:14,366 because they're getting dug deeper and deeper in the muck of this war. 153 00:09:14,366 --> 00:09:17,766 And they have a lot of other items on their agenda that need their attention and their 154 00:09:17,766 --> 00:09:19,700 resources. 155 00:09:19,700 --> 00:09:22,300 JUDY WOODRUFF: Do you believe the Saudis will see a way to extract themselves? 156 00:09:22,300 --> 00:09:25,733 STEPHEN SECHE: They haven't demonstrated that interest as yet, nor have the Houthis for 157 00:09:25,733 --> 00:09:27,800 that matter. 158 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:29,900 So, I think both sides, they need to realize at this point that the only way they Gates 159 00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:32,933 have any of their interests served is by sitting down and negotiating a way out of this. 160 00:09:32,933 --> 00:09:34,933 There is no military victory. 161 00:09:34,933 --> 00:09:37,133 The Saudis cannot win this war, certainly not the way they have been fighting it for 162 00:09:37,133 --> 00:09:39,333 three year . And the Houthis don't need to win it. 163 00:09:39,333 --> 00:09:40,833 They just need not to lose it. 164 00:09:40,833 --> 00:09:42,933 JUDY WOODRUFF: Do you agree the Saudis can't win this? 165 00:09:42,933 --> 00:09:44,033 JAMES JEFFREY: Absolutely. 166 00:09:44,033 --> 00:09:46,100 Steve has the right way forward. 167 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:50,566 The only problem is, the Saudis can't do this if they're going to face a future with hundreds 168 00:09:52,533 --> 00:09:55,600 of thousands or at least tens of thousands of long-range missiles in the hands of the 169 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,200 Houthis, and with Iran aiming at capital, Riyadh. 170 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,266 JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, where do you see this going then? 171 00:10:00,266 --> 00:10:04,700 JAMES JEFFREY: I see the United States finally coming up, which we haven't yet, with a real 172 00:10:04,700 --> 00:10:07,200 policy of trying to deal with Iran in the region. 173 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,300 And that's the whole region, not just in Yemen or Syria. 174 00:10:10,300 --> 00:10:13,333 Then telling the Saudis, look, we have a program. 175 00:10:13,333 --> 00:10:18,333 We understand that any solution has to exclude keeping a lot of Iranian missiles, i.e., a 176 00:10:20,300 --> 00:10:24,166 repeat of what we have in Southern Lebanon today, but as a quid pro quo for that, you 177 00:10:24,166 --> 00:10:26,800 have got to deal with the Houthis, just as Ambassador Seche said. 178 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:31,800 JUDY WOODRUFF: But that would involve, Ambassador Seche, the U.S. coming down hard -- harder 179 00:10:32,266 --> 00:10:33,733 on Iran. 180 00:10:33,733 --> 00:10:35,800 STEPHEN SECHE: On Iran and also on Saudi Arabia. 181 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,566 And I think we have seen recently that the White House and the State Department have 182 00:10:38,566 --> 00:10:43,433 become a real strenuous campaign of putting some pressure on Riyadh, which has paid a 183 00:10:43,433 --> 00:10:45,466 lot. 184 00:10:45,466 --> 00:10:47,033 The Saudis just announced they're going to reopen the port or allow the port in Hudaydah 185 00:10:47,033 --> 00:10:50,033 to be reopened and they're going to let the cranes come in there. 186 00:10:50,033 --> 00:10:53,300 So, I think this demonstrates that if the U.S. does get aggressive, this will apply 187 00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:54,300 the pressure. 188 00:10:54,300 --> 00:10:56,366 The Saudis will respond. 189 00:10:56,366 --> 00:10:59,033 At the same time, Iran needs to be brought into this in some way, because they are playing 190 00:10:59,033 --> 00:11:00,333 a role in this. 191 00:11:00,333 --> 00:11:02,333 And I think we can't ignore that. 192 00:11:02,333 --> 00:11:06,033 We need to find a way to constructively engage all of the parties who have an interest in 193 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,766 this, and bring them to the table together. 194 00:11:09,766 --> 00:11:13,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: Ambassador Stephen Seche, Ambassador James Jeffrey, it's good to have you both. 195 00:11:13,066 --> 00:11:14,066 Very tough subject. 196 00:11:14,066 --> 00:11:15,066 Thank you. 197 00:11:15,066 --> 00:11:15,200 JAMES JEFFREY: Thank you, Judy.