WEBVTT 00:02.500 --> 00:05.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: The divide between local leaders and the president has only grown by the day. 00:07.366 --> 00:10.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% This week, mayors of 15 major cities asked the president to withdraw federal forces from 00:12.266 --> 00:16.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% cities and to not deploy similar federal agents without a request. They called the federal 00:18.500 --> 00:21.566 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% action in Portland and threats elsewhere a violation of fundamental constitutional protections. 00:24.100 --> 00:28.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Tom Ridge was the first secretary of homeland security during the George W. Bush administration. 00:30.366 --> 00:33.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He is also the former governor of Pennsylvania. And he joins me now. 00:33.133 --> 00:35.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Governor Ridge, thank you so much for being here. 00:35.233 --> 00:40.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, the Trump administration is saying these cities can't control the violence on their 00:42.200 --> 00:44.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% streets, and, therefore, the federal government has to get involved. What do you say to that? 00:44.700 --> 00:48.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% TOM RIDGE, FORMER U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF: Well, I would say to the president, you might 00:48.166 --> 00:53.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% want to ask your vice president, who has been a very loyal supporter, whether or not he 00:55.700 --> 00:58.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% thinks that an uninvited, unsolicited intervention by the federal government, as well-intentioned 01:00.333 --> 01:04.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% as it might have been, would have been welcomed in Indiana, without much closer collaboration, 01:06.700 --> 01:11.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% setting priorities, and working together in partnership to address the issues that not 01:11.000 --> 01:14.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% only the president's concerned about, the citizens and the communities are concerned 01:14.833 --> 01:16.933 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% about. 01:16.933 --> 01:20.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But this intervention, this spontaneous and probably very temporary intervention, isn't 01:22.900 --> 01:27.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% really going to solve the problems that the mayors and the governors and the local community 01:27.433 --> 01:29.500 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% want resolved. 01:29.500 --> 01:33.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: You called it, at one point, a reality TV approach. What did you mean by 01:33.433 --> 01:35.466 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% that? 01:35.466 --> 01:38.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% TOM RIDGE: I meant that it just seems that there's going to be some reporting on it. 01:38.500 --> 01:42.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% There will be some video cameras there. It will make the nightly news. 01:42.533 --> 01:46.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And then it will kind of drift away, and there will be another presidential priority. And 01:46.266 --> 01:50.566 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% what has happened is, you have held the spotlight on for an hour. It's like being on "Apprentice." 01:50.566 --> 01:54.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You have got an hour, and then there would be another story later down the road. 01:54.100 --> 01:59.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It's a reality TV approach to a very serious, serious problem. You need sustained commitment. 01:59.066 --> 02:04.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% There are economic and social issues involved. And you cannot address them, let alone resolve 02:05.933 --> 02:09.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% them, unless you have the kind of partnership and the collegial and the cooperation that 02:11.366 --> 02:14.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is so critical. And that's why the federal government exists. 02:14.000 --> 02:19.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, by the way, I must say, when we were leading DHS, it was my great pleasure to connect 02:21.433 --> 02:25.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% with governors and with mayors and to have different law enforcement agencies work together 02:26.633 --> 02:28.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to combat certain threats in their communities. 02:28.633 --> 02:30.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, by the way, the last time I checked, that worked out pretty well. 02:30.666 --> 02:35.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Is there ever a time when federal agents -- when it would be appropriate for 02:38.133 --> 02:40.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% federal agents to go into a city? 02:40.200 --> 02:45.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% TOM RIDGE: Well, I think I personally believe there are probably multiple occasions. They 02:48.000 --> 02:52.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% certainly ought to go in to protect federal buildings. There are certainly legitimate 02:52.100 --> 02:57.066 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% reasons to go in to execute laws. 02:59.000 --> 03:02.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But there's no conceivable scenario that I think that this massive invasion, basically, 03:04.066 --> 03:07.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% should be done or can be done effectively without local support. And that means you 03:09.333 --> 03:11.866 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% have got to pick up the phone and rally and pull people together. 03:11.866 --> 03:15.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And the other thing that is really disturbing to me is, I don't care whether you're Republican 03:15.133 --> 03:19.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or Democrat. There's a lot of men and women and families of both political persuasions 03:19.166 --> 03:21.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in these communities. 03:21.300 --> 03:25.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And the purposeful denigration and the dismissive nature, oh, they're Democrat governors to 03:26.400 --> 03:28.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% me, it's very unappealing to me. 03:28.900 --> 03:32.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% My two biggest cities in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia were run by Democrat governors. You know what? 03:32.500 --> 03:35.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We got a lot done together. That's the point. 03:35.233 --> 03:39.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think he ought to look to his own vice president, a loyal man, and very loyal to the president, 03:39.466 --> 03:42.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and say, how would you handle this? And I would dare say -- I'm not going to speak for 03:42.266 --> 03:47.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% him -- he might suggest more cooperation, rather than this unilateral effort on the 03:48.133 --> 03:49.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% part of the federal government. 03:49.266 --> 03:50.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I may be wrong, but I... 03:50.800 --> 03:52.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (CROSSTALK) 03:52.866 --> 03:55.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Governor Ridge, what's the larger risk here? I mean, what is the concern, 03:55.400 --> 04:00.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that if the federal agents are used to go in a situation like this, what is the concern, 04:02.033 --> 04:06.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that this could lead to a greater violation of citizens' rights? 04:08.866 --> 04:13.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% TOM RIDGE: I think it is -- it corrodes the federal system of government we have, the 04:15.233 --> 04:17.366 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% republic. 04:17.366 --> 04:21.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Remember, it's a republic, if you can keep it. And it is 50 states. We have to be mindful 04:23.233 --> 04:26.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of that. We have to be mindful that I think you're bumping up against the Constitution. 04:26.333 --> 04:29.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And the other fact is that I know some people say, well, they have the authority to do it. 04:29.933 --> 04:34.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Well, you may have the authority. I had the authority to go 70 miles an hour across the 04:36.966 --> 04:39.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Pennsylvania Turnpike, and I could do it in a blizzard if I want. But I'm not sure I want 04:39.833 --> 04:41.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% to do it. 04:41.866 --> 04:45.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Police have the authority to chase convicted felons and murder suspects and draw their 04:47.833 --> 04:49.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% firearms to defend themselves, but they're probably not going to do it, even though they 04:49.833 --> 04:52.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have the authority, if that suspects blends into a civilian population. 04:52.466 --> 04:57.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% So, saying, well, I have technically -- technically the authority to do it doesn't mean that you're 04:59.400 --> 05:03.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% seriously addressing the problem and doesn't even come close to guaranteeing you're going 05:05.100 --> 05:08.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to achieve the outcome. These are serious problems. They're economic. They're social. 05:10.066 --> 05:12.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And it's only a sustained effort -- I was looking at Chicago, 13,000 police. They will 05:12.900 --> 05:17.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% send in 200 agents. How long are they going to be there? It's a reality TV show. I do 05:19.200 --> 05:21.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a couple press conference, send in troops. 05:21.266 --> 05:23.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% By the way, the good men and women from these departments will do all they can to help, 05:23.766 --> 05:28.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but they're not going to be there permanently. They may make a few arrests. Be good for TV. 05:28.266 --> 05:33.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Move out. And the mayors and the governors and the attorneys and law enforcement officials 05:34.700 --> 05:36.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% are going to have to deal with it all over again. 05:36.733 --> 05:40.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It's not a serious effort, long-term effort to deal with the problem of lawlessness. 05:40.233 --> 05:44.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Governor, I know you're aware President Trump responded on Twitter to what 05:44.633 --> 05:49.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you had said and called you a never-Trumper, said you're a failed Republican in name only. 05:52.666 --> 05:57.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The argument that they fall back on is that this is about law and order. So, when they 06:00.166 --> 06:03.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% say that, what is the comeback to that? 06:03.000 --> 06:08.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% TOM RIDGE: Well, Mr. President, I had a pretty good record as governor. I was a pretty good 06:09.500 --> 06:11.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% prosecutor. 06:11.466 --> 06:15.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But you know what I really fall back on, Mr. President? My dad told me a long time ago, 06:17.466 --> 06:20.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% before you get excited about a critic, take that measure of that person. 06:20.666 --> 06:25.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And I took the measure of this man, my president - - he is my president -- in 2015. And my opinion 06:27.566 --> 06:29.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% hasn't changed. He's got me right. 06:29.833 --> 06:34.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, by the way, Mr. President, I would say, you may call me a RINO. I'm a lifelong Republican. 06:36.900 --> 06:41.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You were a lifelong Democrat. So I'm not sure you questioning -- if you're questioning pedigree, 06:42.466 --> 06:44.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you ought to look inward, rather than outward. 06:44.566 --> 06:48.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Former Governor Tom Ridge of Pennsylvania, the first secretary of homeland 06:48.166 --> 06:50.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% security, thank you very much for talking with us. 06:50.666 --> 06:52.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% TOM RIDGE: Very nice to be with you. Thank you, Judy.