1 00:00:02,500 --> 00:00:05,333 JUDY WOODRUFF: The divide between local leaders and the president has only grown by the day. 2 00:00:07,366 --> 00:00:10,333 This week, mayors of 15 major cities asked the president to withdraw federal forces from 3 00:00:12,266 --> 00:00:16,133 cities and to not deploy similar federal agents without a request. They called the federal 4 00:00:18,500 --> 00:00:21,566 action in Portland and threats elsewhere a violation of fundamental constitutional protections. 5 00:00:24,100 --> 00:00:28,466 Tom Ridge was the first secretary of homeland security during the George W. Bush administration. 6 00:00:30,366 --> 00:00:33,133 He is also the former governor of Pennsylvania. And he joins me now. 7 00:00:33,133 --> 00:00:35,233 Governor Ridge, thank you so much for being here. 8 00:00:35,233 --> 00:00:40,133 So, the Trump administration is saying these cities can't control the violence on their 9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,700 streets, and, therefore, the federal government has to get involved. What do you say to that? 10 00:00:44,700 --> 00:00:48,166 TOM RIDGE, FORMER U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF: Well, I would say to the president, you might 11 00:00:48,166 --> 00:00:53,133 want to ask your vice president, who has been a very loyal supporter, whether or not he 12 00:00:55,700 --> 00:00:58,166 thinks that an uninvited, unsolicited intervention by the federal government, as well-intentioned 13 00:01:00,333 --> 00:01:04,800 as it might have been, would have been welcomed in Indiana, without much closer collaboration, 14 00:01:06,700 --> 00:01:11,000 setting priorities, and working together in partnership to address the issues that not 15 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,833 only the president's concerned about, the citizens and the communities are concerned 16 00:01:14,833 --> 00:01:16,933 about. 17 00:01:16,933 --> 00:01:20,833 But this intervention, this spontaneous and probably very temporary intervention, isn't 18 00:01:22,900 --> 00:01:27,433 really going to solve the problems that the mayors and the governors and the local community 19 00:01:27,433 --> 00:01:29,500 want resolved. 20 00:01:29,500 --> 00:01:33,433 JUDY WOODRUFF: You called it, at one point, a reality TV approach. What did you mean by 21 00:01:33,433 --> 00:01:35,466 that? 22 00:01:35,466 --> 00:01:38,500 TOM RIDGE: I meant that it just seems that there's going to be some reporting on it. 23 00:01:38,500 --> 00:01:42,533 There will be some video cameras there. It will make the nightly news. 24 00:01:42,533 --> 00:01:46,266 And then it will kind of drift away, and there will be another presidential priority. And 25 00:01:46,266 --> 00:01:50,566 what has happened is, you have held the spotlight on for an hour. It's like being on "Apprentice." 26 00:01:50,566 --> 00:01:54,100 You have got an hour, and then there would be another story later down the road. 27 00:01:54,100 --> 00:01:59,066 It's a reality TV approach to a very serious, serious problem. You need sustained commitment. 28 00:01:59,066 --> 00:02:04,033 There are economic and social issues involved. And you cannot address them, let alone resolve 29 00:02:05,933 --> 00:02:09,366 them, unless you have the kind of partnership and the collegial and the cooperation that 30 00:02:11,366 --> 00:02:14,000 is so critical. And that's why the federal government exists. 31 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:19,000 And, by the way, I must say, when we were leading DHS, it was my great pleasure to connect 32 00:02:21,433 --> 00:02:25,233 with governors and with mayors and to have different law enforcement agencies work together 33 00:02:26,633 --> 00:02:28,633 to combat certain threats in their communities. 34 00:02:28,633 --> 00:02:30,666 And, by the way, the last time I checked, that worked out pretty well. 35 00:02:30,666 --> 00:02:35,333 JUDY WOODRUFF: Is there ever a time when federal agents -- when it would be appropriate for 36 00:02:38,133 --> 00:02:40,200 federal agents to go into a city? 37 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:45,200 TOM RIDGE: Well, I think I personally believe there are probably multiple occasions. They 38 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,100 certainly ought to go in to protect federal buildings. There are certainly legitimate 39 00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:57,066 reasons to go in to execute laws. 40 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,100 But there's no conceivable scenario that I think that this massive invasion, basically, 41 00:03:04,066 --> 00:03:07,766 should be done or can be done effectively without local support. And that means you 42 00:03:09,333 --> 00:03:11,866 have got to pick up the phone and rally and pull people together. 43 00:03:11,866 --> 00:03:15,133 And the other thing that is really disturbing to me is, I don't care whether you're Republican 44 00:03:15,133 --> 00:03:19,166 or Democrat. There's a lot of men and women and families of both political persuasions 45 00:03:19,166 --> 00:03:21,300 in these communities. 46 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:25,533 And the purposeful denigration and the dismissive nature, oh, they're Democrat governors to 47 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,900 me, it's very unappealing to me. 48 00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:32,500 My two biggest cities in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia were run by Democrat governors. You know what? 49 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:35,233 We got a lot done together. That's the point. 50 00:03:35,233 --> 00:03:39,466 I think he ought to look to his own vice president, a loyal man, and very loyal to the president, 51 00:03:39,466 --> 00:03:42,266 and say, how would you handle this? And I would dare say -- I'm not going to speak for 52 00:03:42,266 --> 00:03:47,266 him -- he might suggest more cooperation, rather than this unilateral effort on the 53 00:03:48,133 --> 00:03:49,266 part of the federal government. 54 00:03:49,266 --> 00:03:50,800 I may be wrong, but I... 55 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:52,866 (CROSSTALK) 56 00:03:52,866 --> 00:03:55,400 JUDY WOODRUFF: Governor Ridge, what's the larger risk here? I mean, what is the concern, 57 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:00,433 that if the federal agents are used to go in a situation like this, what is the concern, 58 00:04:02,033 --> 00:04:06,900 that this could lead to a greater violation of citizens' rights? 59 00:04:08,866 --> 00:04:13,266 TOM RIDGE: I think it is -- it corrodes the federal system of government we have, the 60 00:04:15,233 --> 00:04:17,366 republic. 61 00:04:17,366 --> 00:04:21,233 Remember, it's a republic, if you can keep it. And it is 50 states. We have to be mindful 62 00:04:23,233 --> 00:04:26,333 of that. We have to be mindful that I think you're bumping up against the Constitution. 63 00:04:26,333 --> 00:04:29,933 And the other fact is that I know some people say, well, they have the authority to do it. 64 00:04:29,933 --> 00:04:34,933 Well, you may have the authority. I had the authority to go 70 miles an hour across the 65 00:04:36,966 --> 00:04:39,833 Pennsylvania Turnpike, and I could do it in a blizzard if I want. But I'm not sure I want 66 00:04:39,833 --> 00:04:41,866 to do it. 67 00:04:41,866 --> 00:04:45,833 Police have the authority to chase convicted felons and murder suspects and draw their 68 00:04:47,833 --> 00:04:49,833 firearms to defend themselves, but they're probably not going to do it, even though they 69 00:04:49,833 --> 00:04:52,466 have the authority, if that suspects blends into a civilian population. 70 00:04:52,466 --> 00:04:57,466 So, saying, well, I have technically -- technically the authority to do it doesn't mean that you're 71 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,100 seriously addressing the problem and doesn't even come close to guaranteeing you're going 72 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:08,200 to achieve the outcome. These are serious problems. They're economic. They're social. 73 00:05:10,066 --> 00:05:12,900 And it's only a sustained effort -- I was looking at Chicago, 13,000 police. They will 74 00:05:12,900 --> 00:05:17,900 send in 200 agents. How long are they going to be there? It's a reality TV show. I do 75 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,266 a couple press conference, send in troops. 76 00:05:21,266 --> 00:05:23,766 By the way, the good men and women from these departments will do all they can to help, 77 00:05:23,766 --> 00:05:28,266 but they're not going to be there permanently. They may make a few arrests. Be good for TV. 78 00:05:28,266 --> 00:05:33,266 Move out. And the mayors and the governors and the attorneys and law enforcement officials 79 00:05:34,700 --> 00:05:36,733 are going to have to deal with it all over again. 80 00:05:36,733 --> 00:05:40,233 It's not a serious effort, long-term effort to deal with the problem of lawlessness. 81 00:05:40,233 --> 00:05:44,633 JUDY WOODRUFF: Governor, I know you're aware President Trump responded on Twitter to what 82 00:05:44,633 --> 00:05:49,633 you had said and called you a never-Trumper, said you're a failed Republican in name only. 83 00:05:52,666 --> 00:05:57,666 The argument that they fall back on is that this is about law and order. So, when they 84 00:06:00,166 --> 00:06:03,000 say that, what is the comeback to that? 85 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,000 TOM RIDGE: Well, Mr. President, I had a pretty good record as governor. I was a pretty good 86 00:06:09,500 --> 00:06:11,466 prosecutor. 87 00:06:11,466 --> 00:06:15,500 But you know what I really fall back on, Mr. President? My dad told me a long time ago, 88 00:06:17,466 --> 00:06:20,666 before you get excited about a critic, take that measure of that person. 89 00:06:20,666 --> 00:06:25,666 And I took the measure of this man, my president - - he is my president -- in 2015. And my opinion 90 00:06:27,566 --> 00:06:29,833 hasn't changed. He's got me right. 91 00:06:29,833 --> 00:06:34,833 And, by the way, Mr. President, I would say, you may call me a RINO. I'm a lifelong Republican. 92 00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:41,100 You were a lifelong Democrat. So I'm not sure you questioning -- if you're questioning pedigree, 93 00:06:42,466 --> 00:06:44,566 you ought to look inward, rather than outward. 94 00:06:44,566 --> 00:06:48,166 JUDY WOODRUFF: Former Governor Tom Ridge of Pennsylvania, the first secretary of homeland 95 00:06:48,166 --> 00:06:50,666 security, thank you very much for talking with us. 96 00:06:50,666 --> 00:06:52,333 TOM RIDGE: Very nice to be with you. Thank you, Judy.