JUDY WOODRUFF: The divide
between local leaders
and the president has
only grown by the day.

This week, mayors of 15 major
cities asked the president to
withdraw federal forces from

cities and to not deploy
similar federal agents without a
request. They called the federal

action in Portland and
threats elsewhere a
violation of fundamental
constitutional protections.

Tom Ridge was the first
secretary of homeland
security during the George
W. Bush administration.

He is also the former
governor of Pennsylvania.
And he joins me now.

Governor Ridge, thank you
so much for being here.

So, the Trump administration
is saying these cities can't
control the violence on their

streets, and, therefore,
the federal government
has to get involved.
What do you say to that?

TOM RIDGE, FORMER U.S. HOMELAND
SECURITY CHIEF: Well, I would
say to the president, you might

want to ask your vice president,
who has been a very loyal
supporter, whether or not he

thinks that an uninvited,
unsolicited intervention
by the federal government,
as well-intentioned

as it might have been,
would have been welcomed
in Indiana, without much
closer collaboration,

setting priorities, and working
together in partnership to
address the issues that not

only the president's concerned
about, the citizens and the
communities are concerned

about.

But this intervention, this
spontaneous and probably very
temporary intervention, isn't

really going to solve
the problems that the
mayors and the governors
and the local community

want resolved.

JUDY WOODRUFF: You called it,
at one point, a reality TV
approach. What did you mean by

that?

TOM RIDGE: I meant that it
just seems that there's going
to be some reporting on it.

There will be some video
cameras there. It will
make the nightly news.

And then it will kind of drift
away, and there will be another
presidential priority. And

what has happened is, you
have held the spotlight
on for an hour. It's like
being on "Apprentice."

You have got an hour, and
then there would be another
story later down the road.

It's a reality TV approach to a
very serious, serious problem.
You need sustained commitment.

There are economic and social
issues involved. And you cannot
address them, let alone resolve

them, unless you have the kind
of partnership and the collegial
and the cooperation that

is so critical. And that's why
the federal government exists.

And, by the way, I must say,
when we were leading DHS, it
was my great pleasure to connect

with governors and
with mayors and to have
different law enforcement
agencies work together

to combat certain threats
in their communities.

And, by the way, the
last time I checked, that
worked out pretty well.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Is there ever
a time when federal agents --
when it would be appropriate for

federal agents to
go into a city?

TOM RIDGE: Well, I think
I personally believe
there are probably
multiple occasions. They

certainly ought to go in to
protect federal buildings.
There are certainly legitimate

reasons to go in
to execute laws.

But there's no conceivable
scenario that I think that this
massive invasion, basically,

should be done or can be done
effectively without local
support. And that means you

have got to pick up
the phone and rally and
pull people together.

And the other thing that
is really disturbing
to me is, I don't care
whether you're Republican

or Democrat. There's a lot
of men and women and families
of both political persuasions

in these communities.

And the purposeful denigration
and the dismissive nature, oh,
they're Democrat governors to

me, it's very unappealing to me.

My two biggest cities in
Pittsburgh and Philadelphia
were run by Democrat
governors. You know what?

We got a lot done
together. That's the point.

I think he ought to look to his
own vice president, a loyal man,
and very loyal to the president,

and say, how would you handle
this? And I would dare say
-- I'm not going to speak for

him -- he might suggest more
cooperation, rather than
this unilateral effort on the

part of the federal government.

I may be wrong, but I...

(CROSSTALK)

JUDY WOODRUFF: Governor Ridge,
what's the larger risk here?
I mean, what is the concern,

that if the federal agents are
used to go in a situation like
this, what is the concern,

that this could lead
to a greater violation
of citizens' rights?

TOM RIDGE: I think it is --
it corrodes the federal system
of government we have, the

republic.

Remember, it's a republic, if
you can keep it. And it is 50
states. We have to be mindful

of that. We have to be mindful
that I think you're bumping
up against the Constitution.

And the other fact is that I
know some people say, well, they
have the authority to do it.

Well, you may have
the authority. I had
the authority to go 70
miles an hour across the

Pennsylvania Turnpike, and I
could do it in a blizzard if I
want. But I'm not sure I want

to do it.

Police have the authority to
chase convicted felons and
murder suspects and draw their

firearms to defend themselves,
but they're probably not going
to do it, even though they

have the authority, if
that suspects blends into
a civilian population.

So, saying, well, I have
technically -- technically
the authority to do it
doesn't mean that you're

seriously addressing the problem
and doesn't even come close
to guaranteeing you're going

to achieve the outcome. These
are serious problems. They're
economic. They're social.

And it's only a sustained effort
-- I was looking at Chicago,
13,000 police. They will

send in 200 agents. How long
are they going to be there?
It's a reality TV show. I do

a couple press conference,
send in troops.

By the way, the good men and
women from these departments
will do all they can to help,

but they're not going to be
there permanently. They may make
a few arrests. Be good for TV.

Move out. And the mayors and
the governors and the attorneys
and law enforcement officials

are going to have to deal
with it all over again.

It's not a serious effort,
long-term effort to deal with
the problem of lawlessness.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Governor, I know
you're aware President Trump
responded on Twitter to what

you had said and called you a
never-Trumper, said you're a
failed Republican in name only.

The argument that they fall
back on is that this is about
law and order. So, when they

say that, what is
the comeback to that?

TOM RIDGE: Well, Mr. President,
I had a pretty good record as
governor. I was a pretty good

prosecutor.

But you know what I really
fall back on, Mr. President?
My dad told me a long time ago,

before you get excited
about a critic, take that
measure of that person.

And I took the measure of
this man, my president -
- he is my president --
in 2015. And my opinion

hasn't changed.
He's got me right.

And, by the way, Mr. President,
I would say, you may call me a
RINO. I'm a lifelong Republican.

You were a lifelong Democrat. So
I'm not sure you questioning --
if you're questioning pedigree,

you ought to look inward,
rather than outward.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Former Governor
Tom Ridge of Pennsylvania, the
first secretary of homeland

security, thank you very
much for talking with us.

TOM RIDGE: Very nice to be
with you. Thank you, Judy.