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GEOFF BENNETT: The Biden
administration has finalized
what are the toughest standards

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for vehicle emissions that
limit the amount of greenhouse
gases allowed from tailpipes.

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The new rules are designed
to accelerate the transition
to electric vehicles,

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but it hasn't come
without some pushback.

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David Shepardson is covering
all of this for Reuters,
and he joins us now.

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Thanks for coming in.

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DAVID SHEPARDSON,
Reuters: Thanks.

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GEOFF BENNETT: So, the
Biden administration is
rolling out these new
standards for passenger

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cars and trucks designed to
push the U.S. auto market toward
electric vehicles and hybrids.

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What's the EPA's expectation
for that transition
under this new rule?

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DAVID SHEPARDSON: It's pretty
aggressive. So these rules start
in 2027 and go through 2032,

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and, by 2030, you would have
at least 50 percent plug-in
hybrids and full electric

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vehicles under the various
scenarios that auto
companies can use to comply.

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But, as you said, they can
pick from a mix of different
options, hybrids, plug-ins,

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advanced gasoline vehicles. And
unlike the initial proposal,
which had projected that

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there'd be 60 percent all
E.V.s by 2030 and 67 percent
E.V.s, those numbers are coming

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down because EPA is slowing the
rate of increase and giving auto
companies a break through 2030.

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GEOFF BENNETT: Well, to
your point, the fact that
these rules are being
rolled out more slowly,

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companies have more choices in
terms of how they can comply,
Toyota, which is the world's

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largest automaker, they
were pretty forceful in
their initial pushback.
What was their argument?

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DAVID SHEPARDSON: So, their
argument was that plug-in
hybrids are -- can save an

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equivalent or more CO2 because
they have smaller batteries,

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can be deployed across more
vehicles, as opposed to larger
batteries and single vehicles.

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And that argument, I think,
had a lot of resonance with
the administration and with

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other advocates. So the rule
incentivizes plug-ins further
by giving them additional

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credits, which they
were not going to get
originally. So, the new rule

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really looks far more
holistically at advanced
vehicles, looking at
both E.V.s and plug-ins,

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rather than focusing
primarily, as the earlier
proposal did, on E.V.s.

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GEOFF BENNETT: That concession,
allowing more plug-in hybrids,

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what does that say
about the demand for
pure electric vehicles?

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DAVID SHEPARDSON: Well,
it's not moving as fast
as people had thought.

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Now, certainly, it's
still rising, but there
have been some troubling

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signs. Auto companies like
Ford have cut back production
of the F-150 Lightning.

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We have seen other auto
companies like GM delay
some significant E.V.

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projects. So it is still
rising. We're at about 8
percent we were in last year.

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And it's going to continue
to go up, but there are
concerns that that very

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high level of increase we have
seen in the last few years
is going to moderate and the

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companies are not going
to be able to meet these
very aggressive standards.

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GEOFF BENNETT: What about the
infrastructure for electric
vehicles? When are all of those

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new chargers, when is that
supposed to come online?

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DAVID SHEPARDSON: Right,
because, remember,

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the administration spending
$7.5 billion to get hundreds of
thousands of chargers in place.

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GEOFF BENNETT: Right.

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DAVID SHEPARDSON: And there's
really not many of them, really
just a few dozen, roughly.

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So I think the argument
the administration is
making is, we're going
to see all of those by

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2030 or earlier, right?
And so the battery
factories will be online,

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a lot more vehicles will
be in place, and the
charging infrastructure
will be much more robust.

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So, in theory, the conditions
are there to have a much
more aggressive, robust take

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rate on E.V.s than we have now.
But, certainly, critics say, if
you take your foot off the gas,

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so to speak, then
you're not going to be
-- that auto companies
might slow that change,

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might be a little less
willing to make the full
investment toward E.V.s.

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GEOFF BENNETT: Take your foot
off the gas, so to speak.

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DAVID SHEPARDSON:
Right, exactly.

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(LAUGHTER)

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GEOFF BENNETT: So,
look, there are a lot of
political battle lines being

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drawn around all of this.
Donald Trump has railed
against electric vehicles.

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The United Auto Workers
union, which has
endorsed President Biden,

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they have expressed a lot of
concern about job protections

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and wage protections for
people who build the cars
and build the E.V. batteries.

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DAVID SHEPARDSON: Right.
GEOFF BENNETT: Help us
understand that dynamic.

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DAVID SHEPARDSON: So,
President Trump certainly
has been very bombastic,

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right? In his administration,
he sought to roll back and
did roll back some of the

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greenhouse gas standards
that were reinstated and
then increased by the
Biden administration.

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But one of the benefits to
plug-in hybrids, that both the
UAW, Toyota, you mentioned,

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others like is that
they still have internal
combustion engines, so
they require more workers

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to build those. That's what the
UAW likes, and that's why many
Americans are more comfortable,

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because, if you run out of
electricity, you can still
put gasoline in that vehicle.

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So, at least for the short
term, there's a lot of
people who like that vehicle,

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even though the
environmental benefits
are somewhat in dispute,

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given we don't know how much
that vehicle is going to be
charged versus on gasoline.

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But there's no question that
this issue in those key states,
right, Michigan, Pennsylvania,

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Wisconsin, those auto states,
so that the former President
Trump's harangue about E.V.s,

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and the Biden administration's
arguing, hey, this is going
to ensure we're competitive

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with China and we're going to
create more jobs on net with
all these new battery factories,

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is going to be a key decider
on what side they will come
down on in the election.

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GEOFF BENNETT: David
Shepardson, thanks so
much for your reporting

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and insights. I could talk
to you about this all day.

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DAVID SHEPARDSON: Thanks, Geoff.

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GEOFF BENNETT: All
right, take care.