1 00:00:01,933 --> 00:00:04,100 GEOFF BENNETT: The Biden administration has finalized what are the toughest standards 2 00:00:04,100 --> 00:00:08,066 for vehicle emissions that limit the amount of greenhouse gases allowed from tailpipes. 3 00:00:08,066 --> 00:00:12,066 The new rules are designed to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles, 4 00:00:12,066 --> 00:00:14,533 but it hasn't come without some pushback. 5 00:00:14,533 --> 00:00:18,033 David Shepardson is covering all of this for Reuters, and he joins us now. 6 00:00:18,033 --> 00:00:19,133 Thanks for coming in. 7 00:00:19,133 --> 00:00:21,400 DAVID SHEPARDSON, Reuters: Thanks. 8 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,566 GEOFF BENNETT: So, the Biden administration is rolling out these new standards for passenger 9 00:00:23,566 --> 00:00:28,033 cars and trucks designed to push the U.S. auto market toward electric vehicles and hybrids. 10 00:00:29,833 --> 00:00:34,200 What's the EPA's expectation for that transition under this new rule? 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,166 DAVID SHEPARDSON: It's pretty aggressive. So these rules start in 2027 and go through 2032, 12 00:00:39,166 --> 00:00:44,133 and, by 2030, you would have at least 50 percent plug-in hybrids and full electric 13 00:00:46,066 --> 00:00:48,433 vehicles under the various scenarios that auto companies can use to comply. 14 00:00:48,433 --> 00:00:53,400 But, as you said, they can pick from a mix of different options, hybrids, plug-ins, 15 00:00:55,366 --> 00:00:59,500 advanced gasoline vehicles. And unlike the initial proposal, which had projected that 16 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,600 there'd be 60 percent all E.V.s by 2030 and 67 percent E.V.s, those numbers are coming 17 00:01:06,666 --> 00:01:10,200 down because EPA is slowing the rate of increase and giving auto companies a break through 2030. 18 00:01:12,466 --> 00:01:15,633 GEOFF BENNETT: Well, to your point, the fact that these rules are being rolled out more slowly, 19 00:01:15,633 --> 00:01:20,433 companies have more choices in terms of how they can comply, Toyota, which is the world's 20 00:01:20,433 --> 00:01:25,433 largest automaker, they were pretty forceful in their initial pushback. What was their argument? 21 00:01:27,433 --> 00:01:29,866 DAVID SHEPARDSON: So, their argument was that plug-in hybrids are -- can save an 22 00:01:29,866 --> 00:01:33,466 equivalent or more CO2 because they have smaller batteries, 23 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,133 can be deployed across more vehicles, as opposed to larger batteries and single vehicles. 24 00:01:41,233 --> 00:01:43,400 And that argument, I think, had a lot of resonance with the administration and with 25 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:48,300 other advocates. So the rule incentivizes plug-ins further by giving them additional 26 00:01:50,166 --> 00:01:52,766 credits, which they were not going to get originally. So, the new rule 27 00:01:52,766 --> 00:01:57,733 really looks far more holistically at advanced vehicles, looking at both E.V.s and plug-ins, 28 00:01:59,533 --> 00:02:03,300 rather than focusing primarily, as the earlier proposal did, on E.V.s. 29 00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:06,033 GEOFF BENNETT: That concession, allowing more plug-in hybrids, 30 00:02:06,033 --> 00:02:10,200 what does that say about the demand for pure electric vehicles? 31 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,600 DAVID SHEPARDSON: Well, it's not moving as fast as people had thought. 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,333 Now, certainly, it's still rising, but there have been some troubling 33 00:02:15,333 --> 00:02:20,133 signs. Auto companies like Ford have cut back production of the F-150 Lightning. 34 00:02:20,133 --> 00:02:23,666 We have seen other auto companies like GM delay some significant E.V. 35 00:02:23,666 --> 00:02:28,666 projects. So it is still rising. We're at about 8 percent we were in last year. 36 00:02:30,433 --> 00:02:33,333 And it's going to continue to go up, but there are concerns that that very 37 00:02:33,333 --> 00:02:37,066 high level of increase we have seen in the last few years is going to moderate and the 38 00:02:37,066 --> 00:02:40,700 companies are not going to be able to meet these very aggressive standards. 39 00:02:40,700 --> 00:02:43,833 GEOFF BENNETT: What about the infrastructure for electric vehicles? When are all of those 40 00:02:43,833 --> 00:02:46,600 new chargers, when is that supposed to come online? 41 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,766 DAVID SHEPARDSON: Right, because, remember, 42 00:02:48,766 --> 00:02:51,900 the administration spending $7.5 billion to get hundreds of thousands of chargers in place. 43 00:02:51,900 --> 00:02:54,066 GEOFF BENNETT: Right. 44 00:02:54,066 --> 00:02:56,400 DAVID SHEPARDSON: And there's really not many of them, really just a few dozen, roughly. 45 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,866 So I think the argument the administration is making is, we're going to see all of those by 46 00:02:59,866 --> 00:03:03,466 2030 or earlier, right? And so the battery factories will be online, 47 00:03:03,466 --> 00:03:08,233 a lot more vehicles will be in place, and the charging infrastructure will be much more robust. 48 00:03:08,233 --> 00:03:13,233 So, in theory, the conditions are there to have a much more aggressive, robust take 49 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:19,433 rate on E.V.s than we have now. But, certainly, critics say, if you take your foot off the gas, 50 00:03:19,433 --> 00:03:23,900 so to speak, then you're not going to be -- that auto companies might slow that change, 51 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:28,233 might be a little less willing to make the full investment toward E.V.s. 52 00:03:28,233 --> 00:03:29,733 GEOFF BENNETT: Take your foot off the gas, so to speak. 53 00:03:29,733 --> 00:03:30,366 DAVID SHEPARDSON: Right, exactly. 54 00:03:30,366 --> 00:03:32,200 (LAUGHTER) 55 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,133 GEOFF BENNETT: So, look, there are a lot of political battle lines being 56 00:03:34,133 --> 00:03:36,666 drawn around all of this. Donald Trump has railed against electric vehicles. 57 00:03:36,666 --> 00:03:39,866 The United Auto Workers union, which has endorsed President Biden, 58 00:03:39,866 --> 00:03:43,433 they have expressed a lot of concern about job protections 59 00:03:43,433 --> 00:03:47,333 and wage protections for people who build the cars and build the E.V. batteries. 60 00:03:47,333 --> 00:03:49,200 DAVID SHEPARDSON: Right. GEOFF BENNETT: Help us understand that dynamic. 61 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,133 DAVID SHEPARDSON: So, President Trump certainly has been very bombastic, 62 00:03:52,133 --> 00:03:56,100 right? In his administration, he sought to roll back and did roll back some of the 63 00:03:56,100 --> 00:04:01,066 greenhouse gas standards that were reinstated and then increased by the Biden administration. 64 00:04:03,133 --> 00:04:06,500 But one of the benefits to plug-in hybrids, that both the UAW, Toyota, you mentioned, 65 00:04:08,766 --> 00:04:11,300 others like is that they still have internal combustion engines, so they require more workers 66 00:04:11,300 --> 00:04:15,266 to build those. That's what the UAW likes, and that's why many Americans are more comfortable, 67 00:04:15,266 --> 00:04:19,066 because, if you run out of electricity, you can still put gasoline in that vehicle. 68 00:04:19,066 --> 00:04:23,266 So, at least for the short term, there's a lot of people who like that vehicle, 69 00:04:23,266 --> 00:04:26,400 even though the environmental benefits are somewhat in dispute, 70 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,300 given we don't know how much that vehicle is going to be charged versus on gasoline. 71 00:04:30,300 --> 00:04:34,833 But there's no question that this issue in those key states, right, Michigan, Pennsylvania, 72 00:04:34,833 --> 00:04:39,833 Wisconsin, those auto states, so that the former President Trump's harangue about E.V.s, 73 00:04:41,933 --> 00:04:44,466 and the Biden administration's arguing, hey, this is going to ensure we're competitive 74 00:04:44,466 --> 00:04:48,600 with China and we're going to create more jobs on net with all these new battery factories, 75 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,600 is going to be a key decider on what side they will come down on in the election. 76 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,300 GEOFF BENNETT: David Shepardson, thanks so much for your reporting 77 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:56,300 and insights. I could talk to you about this all day. 78 00:04:56,300 --> 00:04:57,500 DAVID SHEPARDSON: Thanks, Geoff. 79 00:04:57,500 --> 00:04:59,633 GEOFF BENNETT: All right, take care.