WEBVTT 00:01.700 --> 00:03.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% GEOFF BENNETT: An influential group of Republican legal voices today 00:03.766 --> 00:08.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% endorsed the January 2024 trial date proposed by special counsel Jack Smith 00:09.866 --> 00:13.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in his 2020 election interference case against former President Donald Trump. 00:13.133 --> 00:18.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% The group included former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales appointed by George W. Bush, 00:19.600 --> 00:23.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and J. Michael Luttig, a retired federal appellate judge and one 00:23.433 --> 00:25.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of the nation's leading conservative legal minds. 00:25.966 --> 00:29.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Judy Woodruff recently visited Judge Luttig at his home in 00:29.433 --> 00:33.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Colorado as part of her ongoing series America at a Crossroads. 00:33.800 --> 00:36.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG, Former Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals Judge: I understood the gravity of 00:36.733 --> 00:41.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% this matter. And I understood from my lifetime of experience in and around those offices and those 00:47.833 --> 00:52.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% institutions that this was catastrophic for America and for American democracy. 00:55.333 --> 01:00.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Retired Judge Michael Luttig is one of the most influential conservatives to 01:02.833 --> 01:05.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% have served in the federal judiciary. He clerked for Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia while 01:07.400 --> 01:11.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he was on the appellate circuit, served as assistant counsel to President Ronald Reagan, 01:13.333 --> 01:16.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and was the assistant attorney general under President George H.W. Bush, 01:16.300 --> 01:20.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who later appointed him to the United States Court of Appeals. 01:20.033 --> 01:24.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% He was twice considered for nomination himself to the Supreme Court. 01:24.466 --> 01:29.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: I felt that I had a profound obligation to the country to speak 01:30.600 --> 01:33.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and to explain all of what had happened. 01:33.566 --> 01:38.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Well-known in Republican legal circles, Luttig burst into public view when, 01:40.100 --> 01:44.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% on January 5, 2021, he advised then-Vice President Mike Pence to 01:46.566 --> 01:50.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% defy former President Trump's plea not to certify the 2020 election results. 01:52.366 --> 01:54.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Judge Luttig, thank you as well for being here with us today. 01:54.966 --> 01:59.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Luttig spoke about it in dramatic testimony more than a year 01:59.066 --> 02:04.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% later before the House January 6 Committee that was investigating the insurrection. 02:05.466 --> 02:09.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: Donald Trump and his allies and supporters 02:18.000 --> 02:23.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% are a clear and present danger to American democracy. 02:25.366 --> 02:30.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Challenging Trump so publicly thrust him into the hot 02:30.100 --> 02:33.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% lights of American politics, where he's been ever since. 02:33.600 --> 02:38.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We sat down with Judge Luttig at his home in Vail, Colorado, to talk about 02:40.433 --> 02:43.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% where the country is in the aftermath of the past two-and-a-half tumultuous years. 02:45.933 --> 02:49.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You have been saying for months that Americans have lost their moral compass 02:51.300 --> 02:54.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and that, with this loss of direction, Americans have lost all perspective. 02:54.733 --> 02:57.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What brought you to that conclusion? 02:57.666 --> 03:02.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: For almost 250 years, Judy, there was all but a consensus among 03:07.000 --> 03:12.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the American public on the fundamental values and principles on which America was founded. 03:15.466 --> 03:20.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And then, all of a sudden, it seems we don't agree on anything at all. 03:22.433 --> 03:27.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We have not talked to each other as friends and fellow citizens, Americans who share 03:31.966 --> 03:36.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the same destiny and have the same hopes and dreams for America for six or eight years now. 03:40.300 --> 03:42.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: And that being the case, 03:42.600 --> 03:46.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you're -- you're still confident that there's more that we have to agree carry on? 03:46.766 --> 03:51.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: I am. I know that there's more that we agree on than that we disagree on. 03:54.666 --> 03:59.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Our officials and our elected leaders have talked to the nation and talked to we Americans as if we 04:04.500 --> 04:09.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% were enemies of each other. And we have never been enemies of each other. Over the timeline 04:11.433 --> 04:16.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of the past 10, 15, 20 years, leaders on both sides of the aisle have failed us. 04:19.600 --> 04:24.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But, as of today, and for the past two-and-a-half years, since January 6, 2021, it has been the 04:31.133 --> 04:36.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Republicans who have reprehensibly failed us as Americans. On January 6, the former president 04:41.266 --> 04:46.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and the Republican allies, his allies and supporters, declared war on American democracy. 04:49.900 --> 04:54.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: How much responsibility does former President Trump himself bear for all this? 04:56.366 --> 04:58.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: He bears a disproportionate share of 04:58.733 --> 05:03.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% responsibility, if not the entire responsibility. 05:03.233 --> 05:06.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The former president sought to overturn 05:08.266 --> 05:12.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% an American election which he had lost fair and square. For four years, 05:14.233 --> 05:18.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% these claims by the former president and his Republican allies have corroded and corrupted 05:22.500 --> 05:27.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% American democracy and American elections. Vast, vast numbers of Americans, into the millions, 05:33.933 --> 05:38.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% today no longer believe in the elections in the United States of America. 05:42.233 --> 05:47.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% They no longer believe in the institutions of law and democracy 05:48.466 --> 05:51.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in America, the very pillars of our foundation. 05:54.266 --> 05:57.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And many of those people have begun even to question the Constitution of the United States. 05:59.500 --> 06:04.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: But you're saying the damage done has been far, far greater than former 06:06.933 --> 06:11.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% President Trump, January 6, and the immediate actions that were taken in that time period? 06:13.066 --> 06:15.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: Yes, there's no question. 06:15.066 --> 06:18.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Never again will the world be inspired to - - by America and America's democracy in 06:23.800 --> 06:28.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the way that it has been for -- since our founding almost 250 years ago. 06:29.933 --> 06:33.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But the indictment and prosecution of the 06:33.700 --> 06:38.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% president doesn't end or even begin to resolve this matter. 06:40.700 --> 06:44.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: How much does it matter what the verdict of that trial is? 06:46.666 --> 06:49.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: All that matters is that the president will be tried for these grave offenses. 06:55.533 --> 07:00.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Had he not, he would have made a mockery out of the Constitution and the rule of law. 07:02.500 --> 07:07.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: But do you worry that whether there's an acquittal or a conviction, 07:08.400 --> 07:10.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what the effect could be? 07:10.400 --> 07:15.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: We can expect that if the president were to be acquitted, 07:16.900 --> 07:21.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that he and all of his supporters would claim that that was vindication that he was 07:26.933 --> 07:31.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% right that the 2020 presidential election was stolen from him. 07:33.566 --> 07:37.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Were that to be the case, I don't believe that American democracy could be saved, 07:40.966 --> 07:44.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% at least in the near future. 07:44.566 --> 07:49.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: That's a -- that's a terrible statement to hear from you. 07:55.466 --> 07:57.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: I understand. I understand. 07:57.266 --> 07:59.333 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% JUDY WOODRUFF: 07:59.333 --> 08:02.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Former President Trump, as you know, is already saying he's not guilty. He believes he's being 08:02.733 --> 08:07.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% treated unfairly in all this, especially in contrast to President Biden's son Hunter Biden. 08:09.366 --> 08:12.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% He has said that he's being treated much worse by the judicial system. 08:12.933 --> 08:17.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: The issue with Hunter Biden and the issue with the former president, 08:19.966 --> 08:23.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they are not similar in any way at all, let alone in gravity or consequence. 08:26.800 --> 08:30.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's the incumbent president's son 08:32.066 --> 08:35.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and the personal conduct that he's being charged -- accused of is of a pedestrian nature 08:40.900 --> 08:45.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% by comparison to what the former president has now been indicted for. 08:45.600 --> 08:49.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Returning to something that you have spoken about in this interview, 08:49.500 --> 08:53.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% a big part of today's problems with what we're facing as a country has 08:53.333 --> 08:56.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to do with political leaders, elected officials. 08:58.066 --> 09:01.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% What about individuals like the Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, 09:01.800 --> 09:06.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% like Senator Lindsey Graham, who are leaders in the party, but have not so far spoken out 09:09.933 --> 09:13.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% clearly against former President Trump? 09:13.000 --> 09:18.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: Any leader, Republican or Democrat, who has not spoken against 09:20.200 --> 09:25.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% January 6 and the former president's role in it has betrayed their oath. 09:28.500 --> 09:32.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% January 6 and what the former president did is not 09:34.766 --> 09:38.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% politics. And it certainly is not partisan politics. This is far above and beyond politics. 09:43.966 --> 09:48.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, as we now know, it's literally crimes against the United States of America. 09:51.100 --> 09:56.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But all of our politicians, and especially the Republicans, have regarded it as nothing more than 10:00.933 --> 10:05.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% politics. In that respect, they have failed Americans. It's critical to American democracy 10:11.800 --> 10:16.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that you have two very strong political parties who are competing against each other on the 10:20.700 --> 10:25.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% issues, the public policy issues before the nation. 10:27.600 --> 10:32.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We can't have one party who is supporting and defending what occurred on January 6, 10:35.533 --> 10:40.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% together with the president of the United States who caused January 6. 10:42.866 --> 10:47.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We can't have that. We cannot function until the Republican Party comes to its senses. 10:49.700 --> 10:54.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And, in my view, I don't consider the Republican Party a 10:56.466 --> 10:58.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% political party in the United States at the moment. 10:58.933 --> 11:02.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Luttig added that he believes the country can't be 11:02.700 --> 11:07.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% set on course again unless a number of those elected officials lose their jobs. 11:08.900 --> 11:10.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: What we need to do is remove 11:13.166 --> 11:17.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% our power from our elected officials who have betrayed us as Americans and send to Washington 11:26.433 --> 11:31.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% others who better understand than today's officials that their power is our power. 11:36.700 --> 11:41.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: When you think about what the country does to heal 11:43.200 --> 11:46.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% this moment of extreme polarization, what comes to mind as solutions? What needs to be done? 11:48.700 --> 11:53.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: Someone who has the moral wherewithal to speak and be heard 12:01.233 --> 12:05.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% by the nation has to speak. 12:05.300 --> 12:07.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Is there anyone on the scene right now that can fill that? 12:07.600 --> 12:12.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: There is not, not one single leader in America today, Judy. 12:14.066 --> 12:15.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: So what does that portend? 12:15.666 --> 12:20.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: That alone portends hopelessness, right? 12:21.866 --> 12:26.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But we have to be eternally hopeful. 12:26.433 --> 12:31.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Judy Woodruff in Vail, Colorado.