1 00:00:01,700 --> 00:00:03,766 GEOFF BENNETT: An influential group of Republican legal voices today 2 00:00:03,766 --> 00:00:08,033 endorsed the January 2024 trial date proposed by special counsel Jack Smith 3 00:00:09,866 --> 00:00:13,133 in his 2020 election interference case against former President Donald Trump. 4 00:00:13,133 --> 00:00:18,133 The group included former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales appointed by George W. Bush, 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,433 and J. Michael Luttig, a retired federal appellate judge and one 6 00:00:23,433 --> 00:00:25,966 of the nation's leading conservative legal minds. 7 00:00:25,966 --> 00:00:29,433 Judy Woodruff recently visited Judge Luttig at his home in 8 00:00:29,433 --> 00:00:33,800 Colorado as part of her ongoing series America at a Crossroads. 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,733 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG, Former Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals Judge: I understood the gravity of 10 00:00:36,733 --> 00:00:41,700 this matter. And I understood from my lifetime of experience in and around those offices and those 11 00:00:47,833 --> 00:00:52,800 institutions that this was catastrophic for America and for American democracy. 12 00:00:55,333 --> 00:01:00,333 JUDY WOODRUFF: Retired Judge Michael Luttig is one of the most influential conservatives to 13 00:01:02,833 --> 00:01:05,466 have served in the federal judiciary. He clerked for Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia while 14 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,466 he was on the appellate circuit, served as assistant counsel to President Ronald Reagan, 15 00:01:13,333 --> 00:01:16,300 and was the assistant attorney general under President George H.W. Bush, 16 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:20,033 who later appointed him to the United States Court of Appeals. 17 00:01:20,033 --> 00:01:24,466 He was twice considered for nomination himself to the Supreme Court. 18 00:01:24,466 --> 00:01:29,466 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: I felt that I had a profound obligation to the country to speak 19 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,566 and to explain all of what had happened. 20 00:01:33,566 --> 00:01:38,566 JUDY WOODRUFF: Well-known in Republican legal circles, Luttig burst into public view when, 21 00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:44,600 on January 5, 2021, he advised then-Vice President Mike Pence to 22 00:01:46,566 --> 00:01:50,333 defy former President Trump's plea not to certify the 2020 election results. 23 00:01:52,366 --> 00:01:54,966 REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Judge Luttig, thank you as well for being here with us today. 24 00:01:54,966 --> 00:01:59,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: Luttig spoke about it in dramatic testimony more than a year 25 00:01:59,066 --> 00:02:04,033 later before the House January 6 Committee that was investigating the insurrection. 26 00:02:05,466 --> 00:02:09,366 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: Donald Trump and his allies and supporters 27 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:23,000 are a clear and present danger to American democracy. 28 00:02:25,366 --> 00:02:30,100 JUDY WOODRUFF: Challenging Trump so publicly thrust him into the hot 29 00:02:30,100 --> 00:02:33,600 lights of American politics, where he's been ever since. 30 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,600 We sat down with Judge Luttig at his home in Vail, Colorado, to talk about 31 00:02:40,433 --> 00:02:43,933 where the country is in the aftermath of the past two-and-a-half tumultuous years. 32 00:02:45,933 --> 00:02:49,266 You have been saying for months that Americans have lost their moral compass 33 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:54,733 and that, with this loss of direction, Americans have lost all perspective. 34 00:02:54,733 --> 00:02:57,666 What brought you to that conclusion? 35 00:02:57,666 --> 00:03:02,633 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: For almost 250 years, Judy, there was all but a consensus among 36 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,000 the American public on the fundamental values and principles on which America was founded. 37 00:03:15,466 --> 00:03:20,466 And then, all of a sudden, it seems we don't agree on anything at all. 38 00:03:22,433 --> 00:03:27,133 We have not talked to each other as friends and fellow citizens, Americans who share 39 00:03:31,966 --> 00:03:36,966 the same destiny and have the same hopes and dreams for America for six or eight years now. 40 00:03:40,300 --> 00:03:42,600 JUDY WOODRUFF: And that being the case, 41 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,766 you're -- you're still confident that there's more that we have to agree carry on? 42 00:03:46,766 --> 00:03:51,766 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: I am. I know that there's more that we agree on than that we disagree on. 43 00:03:54,666 --> 00:03:59,633 Our officials and our elected leaders have talked to the nation and talked to we Americans as if we 44 00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:09,500 were enemies of each other. And we have never been enemies of each other. Over the timeline 45 00:04:11,433 --> 00:04:16,433 of the past 10, 15, 20 years, leaders on both sides of the aisle have failed us. 46 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:24,600 But, as of today, and for the past two-and-a-half years, since January 6, 2021, it has been the 47 00:04:31,133 --> 00:04:36,133 Republicans who have reprehensibly failed us as Americans. On January 6, the former president 48 00:04:41,266 --> 00:04:46,266 and the Republican allies, his allies and supporters, declared war on American democracy. 49 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:54,900 JUDY WOODRUFF: How much responsibility does former President Trump himself bear for all this? 50 00:04:56,366 --> 00:04:58,733 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: He bears a disproportionate share of 51 00:04:58,733 --> 00:05:03,233 responsibility, if not the entire responsibility. 52 00:05:03,233 --> 00:05:06,333 The former president sought to overturn 53 00:05:08,266 --> 00:05:12,233 an American election which he had lost fair and square. For four years, 54 00:05:14,233 --> 00:05:18,800 these claims by the former president and his Republican allies have corroded and corrupted 55 00:05:22,500 --> 00:05:27,500 American democracy and American elections. Vast, vast numbers of Americans, into the millions, 56 00:05:33,933 --> 00:05:38,933 today no longer believe in the elections in the United States of America. 57 00:05:42,233 --> 00:05:47,100 They no longer believe in the institutions of law and democracy 58 00:05:48,466 --> 00:05:51,833 in America, the very pillars of our foundation. 59 00:05:54,266 --> 00:05:57,600 And many of those people have begun even to question the Constitution of the United States. 60 00:05:59,500 --> 00:06:04,433 JUDY WOODRUFF: But you're saying the damage done has been far, far greater than former 61 00:06:06,933 --> 00:06:11,933 President Trump, January 6, and the immediate actions that were taken in that time period? 62 00:06:13,066 --> 00:06:15,066 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: Yes, there's no question. 63 00:06:15,066 --> 00:06:18,833 Never again will the world be inspired to - - by America and America's democracy in 64 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:28,800 the way that it has been for -- since our founding almost 250 years ago. 65 00:06:29,933 --> 00:06:33,700 But the indictment and prosecution of the 66 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:38,700 president doesn't end or even begin to resolve this matter. 67 00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:44,133 JUDY WOODRUFF: How much does it matter what the verdict of that trial is? 68 00:06:46,666 --> 00:06:49,333 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: All that matters is that the president will be tried for these grave offenses. 69 00:06:55,533 --> 00:07:00,566 Had he not, he would have made a mockery out of the Constitution and the rule of law. 70 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:07,200 JUDY WOODRUFF: But do you worry that whether there's an acquittal or a conviction, 71 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,400 what the effect could be? 72 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:15,000 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: We can expect that if the president were to be acquitted, 73 00:07:16,900 --> 00:07:21,900 that he and all of his supporters would claim that that was vindication that he was 74 00:07:26,933 --> 00:07:31,533 right that the 2020 presidential election was stolen from him. 75 00:07:33,566 --> 00:07:37,500 Were that to be the case, I don't believe that American democracy could be saved, 76 00:07:40,966 --> 00:07:44,566 at least in the near future. 77 00:07:44,566 --> 00:07:49,566 JUDY WOODRUFF: That's a -- that's a terrible statement to hear from you. 78 00:07:55,466 --> 00:07:57,266 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: I understand. I understand. 79 00:07:57,266 --> 00:07:59,333 JUDY WOODRUFF: 80 00:07:59,333 --> 00:08:02,733 Former President Trump, as you know, is already saying he's not guilty. He believes he's being 81 00:08:02,733 --> 00:08:07,733 treated unfairly in all this, especially in contrast to President Biden's son Hunter Biden. 82 00:08:09,366 --> 00:08:12,933 He has said that he's being treated much worse by the judicial system. 83 00:08:12,933 --> 00:08:17,933 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: The issue with Hunter Biden and the issue with the former president, 84 00:08:19,966 --> 00:08:23,766 they are not similar in any way at all, let alone in gravity or consequence. 85 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,033 It's the incumbent president's son 86 00:08:32,066 --> 00:08:35,700 and the personal conduct that he's being charged -- accused of is of a pedestrian nature 87 00:08:40,900 --> 00:08:45,600 by comparison to what the former president has now been indicted for. 88 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,500 JUDY WOODRUFF: Returning to something that you have spoken about in this interview, 89 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:53,333 a big part of today's problems with what we're facing as a country has 90 00:08:53,333 --> 00:08:56,433 to do with political leaders, elected officials. 91 00:08:58,066 --> 00:09:01,800 What about individuals like the Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, 92 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,800 like Senator Lindsey Graham, who are leaders in the party, but have not so far spoken out 93 00:09:09,933 --> 00:09:13,000 clearly against former President Trump? 94 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:18,000 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: Any leader, Republican or Democrat, who has not spoken against 95 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:25,200 January 6 and the former president's role in it has betrayed their oath. 96 00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:32,700 January 6 and what the former president did is not 97 00:09:34,766 --> 00:09:38,300 politics. And it certainly is not partisan politics. This is far above and beyond politics. 98 00:09:43,966 --> 00:09:48,966 And, as we now know, it's literally crimes against the United States of America. 99 00:09:51,100 --> 00:09:56,100 But all of our politicians, and especially the Republicans, have regarded it as nothing more than 100 00:10:00,933 --> 00:10:05,933 politics. In that respect, they have failed Americans. It's critical to American democracy 101 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,800 that you have two very strong political parties who are competing against each other on the 102 00:10:20,700 --> 00:10:25,533 issues, the public policy issues before the nation. 103 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,033 We can't have one party who is supporting and defending what occurred on January 6, 104 00:10:35,533 --> 00:10:40,500 together with the president of the United States who caused January 6. 105 00:10:42,866 --> 00:10:47,833 We can't have that. We cannot function until the Republican Party comes to its senses. 106 00:10:49,700 --> 00:10:54,000 And, in my view, I don't consider the Republican Party a 107 00:10:56,466 --> 00:10:58,933 political party in the United States at the moment. 108 00:10:58,933 --> 00:11:02,700 JUDY WOODRUFF: Luttig added that he believes the country can't be 109 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:07,700 set on course again unless a number of those elected officials lose their jobs. 110 00:11:08,900 --> 00:11:10,733 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: What we need to do is remove 111 00:11:13,166 --> 00:11:17,600 our power from our elected officials who have betrayed us as Americans and send to Washington 112 00:11:26,433 --> 00:11:31,433 others who better understand than today's officials that their power is our power. 113 00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:41,133 JUDY WOODRUFF: When you think about what the country does to heal 114 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,800 this moment of extreme polarization, what comes to mind as solutions? What needs to be done? 115 00:11:48,700 --> 00:11:53,633 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: Someone who has the moral wherewithal to speak and be heard 116 00:12:01,233 --> 00:12:05,300 by the nation has to speak. 117 00:12:05,300 --> 00:12:07,600 JUDY WOODRUFF: Is there anyone on the scene right now that can fill that? 118 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:12,600 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: There is not, not one single leader in America today, Judy. 119 00:12:14,066 --> 00:12:15,666 JUDY WOODRUFF: So what does that portend? 120 00:12:15,666 --> 00:12:20,666 J. MICHAEL LUTTIG: That alone portends hopelessness, right? 121 00:12:21,866 --> 00:12:26,433 But we have to be eternally hopeful. 122 00:12:26,433 --> 00:12:31,433 JUDY WOODRUFF: For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Judy Woodruff in Vail, Colorado.