WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:03.280 JUDY WOODRUFF: To reflect a little on what Senator Warren had to say and more 00:03.280 --> 00:07.200 on the events of this week, it's time for Brooks and Capehart. 00:07.200 --> 00:10.080 That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and 00:10.080 --> 00:13.120 Jonathan Capehart, columnist for The Washington Post. 00:13.120 --> 00:18.000 It is so good to see both of you, smiling faces on this Friday evening. 00:18.000 --> 00:20.640 And I do want to get to Senator Warren, David, 00:20.640 --> 00:25.280 but first let me ask you about today's jobs numbers. They were disappointing. 00:26.000 --> 00:29.040 It was expected there would be many hundreds of thousands more than there were. 00:29.040 --> 00:34.040 Do these numbers say something about, frankly, the wisdom of President Biden's economic plans? 00:35.840 --> 00:38.160 DAVID BROOKS: Maybe. I don't think we know yet. 00:38.160 --> 00:42.560 But we're doing two gigantic experiments that are really unprecedented in American history. 00:42.560 --> 00:46.720 We have never spent $6 trillion in such a short period of time, 00:46.720 --> 00:51.120 and gone into debt while doing it. If the two other Biden plan passes, it'll be $10 trillion. 00:51.920 --> 00:56.400 At the same time, we have never seen Fed expansionary policy this momentous. And 00:56.400 --> 01:00.800 so this is an experiment. And maybe it'll pay off, but maybe there will be inflation. Warren 01:00.800 --> 01:04.320 Buffett's a little worried about inflation. Other people are worried about inflation. 01:04.320 --> 01:09.280 Maybe, as Michael Strain said earlier in the program, the fact that people are paid to stay 01:09.280 --> 01:13.520 home means I don't want to get a job. I can hang out at home, what seems a lot better. 01:13.520 --> 01:17.200 And so we -- I don't think we know the answer to what happened. But it was a shocking 01:17.200 --> 01:21.280 number. And we just have to pay attention to the fact that this could go sideways in 01:21.280 --> 01:23.680 a million ways, because we're doing something really risky. 01:23.680 --> 01:27.040 JUDY WOODRUFF: Jonathan, do you see that this makes some sort 01:27.040 --> 01:29.440 of statement about what President Biden's doing? 01:30.240 --> 01:32.480 JONATHAN CAPEHART: I don't think so, not yet. 01:32.480 --> 01:37.480 We cannot grade the entirety of President Biden's 01:37.760 --> 01:42.760 fiscal plans based on one unemployment number. We have got to look at the long haul here. And so 01:45.760 --> 01:50.760 the jury's out on that. However, we have to think about all the things that David 01:51.120 --> 01:56.120 was just talking about, in terms of the inflationary concerns and all of that. 01:58.080 --> 02:01.520 We have to also talk about the fact that we're also dealing with -- still with a 02:01.520 --> 02:06.520 global pandemic, people being reticent. As much as folks want to get out and 02:07.680 --> 02:12.400 restart their lives, there are a lot of people who, like, can't find jobs, 02:12.400 --> 02:17.040 are too afraid to get out there, for fear of what's going to happen with the pandemic. 02:17.040 --> 02:21.920 And, also, on top of all of it, even though lots of states are starting to reopen, 02:21.920 --> 02:26.000 some more fully, like New York, New Jersey and Connecticut have announced, 02:26.000 --> 02:30.880 but they're still slowly reopening. So I think it's a little too early, 02:30.880 --> 02:35.880 Judy and David, to start being gloom and doom over the state of the economy, not just yet. 02:38.400 --> 02:40.880 JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, in connection with all this, 02:40.880 --> 02:44.640 you heard Senator Warren. I asked her about her plans to tax the wealthy. 02:44.640 --> 02:47.600 She has a much more, shall we say, ambitious 02:48.640 --> 02:52.640 set of proposals even than what President Biden has put out there. 02:52.640 --> 02:57.640 David, what do you -- where do you see any of this going with regard to taxing the wealthiest 02:58.800 --> 03:00.800 in order to pay for what he wants to do? 03:00.800 --> 03:02.720 DAVID BROOKS: Well, it's pretty popular. 03:03.280 --> 03:06.640 And it's also just a fact that wealth is concentrated 03:07.280 --> 03:12.160 over the last 30 or 40 years. It's also just a fact that corporations have done extremely well, 03:12.160 --> 03:14.000 and corporate profits have done pretty well. 03:14.000 --> 03:18.880 So, if you want to tax things to pay for things, these are probably the least bad things to tax. 03:18.880 --> 03:21.920 There is going to be a cost. When you raise the corporate tax rate, and, 03:21.920 --> 03:25.600 on the margins, companies will flock to a place with a lower corporate tax 03:25.600 --> 03:29.840 rate than a higher corporate tax rate. That's probably true on the margins. But it seems to 03:29.840 --> 03:33.920 me the Biden administration has chosen the appropriate areas to raise taxes. 03:33.920 --> 03:38.720 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Jonathan, what do you see when you look at 03:38.720 --> 03:42.080 taxes and President Biden and what Senator Warren's saying? 03:42.080 --> 03:47.080 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, one, I agree with David in the last point that he made. 03:48.000 --> 03:52.320 But let's also remember they're still in the middle of negotiations. And even though 03:52.320 --> 03:56.480 I think the initial number the president has put out there, wanting to raise the corporate 03:56.480 --> 04:01.480 tax rate to 28 percent from 21 percent, and, before that, under Trump, it was 35 percent, 04:01.920 --> 04:06.720 and he lowered it that much, that the president and the administration has been -- have been 04:06.720 --> 04:11.720 sending signals all along that they're willing to negotiate, willing to negotiate on that piece. 04:12.000 --> 04:17.000 As for Senator Warren, of course, she is going to shoot for the moon and the stars 04:17.760 --> 04:20.400 as a means of, one, because she believes that fully, 04:20.960 --> 04:25.960 firmly believes it, but also as a way of trying to push the president further, push him to do 04:28.320 --> 04:32.880 more than maybe he is constitutional -- he thinks he's constitutionally capable of. 04:33.440 --> 04:37.680 But if the American -- if the American Rescue Plan 04:37.680 --> 04:41.280 is any indicator, I don't think she's going to have to push too hard to get 04:41.280 --> 04:46.280 the president to think imaginatively about how to go about his policy -- his plans. 04:46.960 --> 04:51.960 JUDY WOODRUFF: Let's talk about the Republicans, David, a lot going on in 04:52.400 --> 04:57.400 that party this -- the last few days, and, next week, a vote upcoming among House Republicans. 04:58.240 --> 05:03.240 It looks like they are going to kick out Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming as the 05:03.360 --> 05:08.360 conference chair in the House, because she's not only insufficiently loyal to President 05:09.840 --> 05:13.600 Trump. She's saying he actively should not be the person the party's following. 05:13.600 --> 05:16.960 What does all this say about the Republican Party? 05:16.960 --> 05:19.600 DAVID BROOKS: Well, it's still Donald Trump's party. 05:19.600 --> 05:23.200 It shows that you have to -- more or less, as everyone is pointing out, 05:23.200 --> 05:28.200 you shouldn't have to be a lie to qualify -- you have to lie to qualify to be a Republican. And 05:28.400 --> 05:33.400 that's the standard that is now being laid down. And Elizabeth Cheney just didn't want to lie. 05:33.680 --> 05:36.880 There's also a lot of internal politics here, that 05:37.920 --> 05:42.080 what they want from the person in a leadership role is the ability to get them reelected. 05:42.080 --> 05:46.240 And so the House members are worried that, because she keeps picking on this issue, 05:46.240 --> 05:49.760 she's going to be less effective at raising money and getting them reelected. 05:49.760 --> 05:52.400 Elise Stefanik, the person who's probably going to replace her, 05:53.040 --> 05:58.040 has read the party. She was a Harvard educated person who worked in the Bush administration, 05:58.160 --> 06:01.760 endorsed John Kasich, and sat out the 2016 convention because Donald Trump was going 06:01.760 --> 06:05.760 to be the nominee. Ruth Marcus, our friend, has a good column on this. 06:05.760 --> 06:10.760 And she's now a roaring Trumper. And so she's read the winds. And that's what this is all about. 06:12.160 --> 06:16.000 JUDY WOODRUFF: In fact, Elise Stefanik just said in an interview, Jonathan, 06:16.000 --> 06:20.000 yesterday that President Trump is the strongest president ever when it comes 06:20.000 --> 06:23.040 to standing up for the U.S. Constitution. 06:23.600 --> 06:26.800 But what do you -- what does all this say, from your perspective, about 06:26.800 --> 06:28.880 what Republicans are -- where they're headed? 06:28.880 --> 06:32.720 JONATHAN CAPEHART: That quote you just read from Congresswoman Stefanik just 06:32.720 --> 06:34.960 sort of proves what David was just talking about. 06:34.960 --> 06:39.600 In order to be in the leadership, but also to be considered a Republican, 06:39.600 --> 06:44.400 you have to lie. All of this tells me that the Republican Party has officially lost 06:44.400 --> 06:49.400 its way. It is not about values and substantive issues and being a policy 06:50.720 --> 06:55.720 counterweight to the Democratic Party. It is all about being loyal to Donald Trump, one. 06:56.960 --> 07:01.960 But, also, when it comes to the House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, it's do anything, 07:02.000 --> 07:07.000 say anything to ensure, you hope, that you are in good position to retake the House in 2022. 07:10.320 --> 07:15.320 Elizabeth -- Congresswoman Cheney is a conservative. She is a conservative. 07:16.400 --> 07:21.400 Elise Stefanik, by comparison, from Upstate New York is a moderate. And when you look at -- the 07:22.880 --> 07:27.880 Club For Growth gives Elise Stefanik a 35 percent rating. The Heritage Foundation 07:29.280 --> 07:34.280 gives Elizabeth Cheney an 80 percent rating and Elise Stefanik a 48 percent rating. 07:35.600 --> 07:40.600 And if you want to talk about fealty and loyalty to Donald Trump, Congresswoman Cheney 07:41.920 --> 07:46.920 voted with Donald Trump 92.9 percent of the time, as compared to Elise Stefanik, who voted 07:48.800 --> 07:53.800 with him 77 percent of the -- 77 percent of the time. And this is data from FiveThirtyEight. 07:55.760 --> 08:00.760 So, it's like the Soul Train Scramble Board here. It's going to take a while to figure out what 08:01.360 --> 08:06.360 they're -- what the Republican Party is all about, really. But, right now, the Republican Party 08:07.520 --> 08:12.520 is about Donald Trump, only about Donald Trump, and how Donald Trump feels about everything. 08:13.760 --> 08:18.760 And one last point, Judy. I know I'm going on. The number one reason why Congresswoman 08:18.800 --> 08:23.120 Cheney is in trouble is because Donald Trump hates her for telling the truth. 08:23.120 --> 08:28.120 JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, David, as both of you are saying, it is not only what 08:28.880 --> 08:33.760 Congresswoman Cheney -- or Congresswoman Stefanik is saying about former President 08:33.760 --> 08:38.760 Trump, but it's also her -- her continuing to insist, along with so many other Republicans, 08:39.120 --> 08:44.120 that the election -- in her words, she said election fraud was widespread last year. 08:45.520 --> 08:50.520 She has spoken out for this recount going on in Maricopa County, Arizona, that's 08:52.000 --> 08:55.360 paid for only by Republicans -- or being sponsored only by Republicans. 08:55.360 --> 08:58.800 So, I mean, this says something about future elections as well. 08:58.800 --> 09:03.800 DAVID BROOKS: Yes, in a country with a lot of problems, the Republicans have picked the one 09:04.400 --> 09:08.560 area that's not broken to address all their energy on. And that's elections. 09:09.360 --> 09:14.160 And so they -- all these laws, I doubt they will have a huge effect. I think studies 09:14.720 --> 09:19.720 show that they don't have a big effect on damping down turnout. But it's just a -- given 09:20.480 --> 09:23.840 American history -- Jonathan and I have talked about it before -- it's just a horrific look. 09:23.840 --> 09:28.800 And the amount of energy going into it, and the fact that Florida Governor DeSantis did it, 09:29.600 --> 09:34.600 announced is the signing of Florida's new election law on FOX, who does a news event on one network? 09:35.840 --> 09:35.973 (LAUGHTER) 09:35.973 --> 09:40.973 DAVID BROOKS: I mean, this -- it just shows we are in a land of theater. It's not about anything 09:41.600 --> 09:46.240 but the symbols of showing Donald Trump is right about the election and there was a lot of fraud. 09:46.240 --> 09:51.240 And it's a theatrical gesture, a Potemkin set of laws to just reinforce the Trump narrative. 09:52.240 --> 09:54.560 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Jonathan, as both of you have said, 09:55.680 --> 10:00.680 these election laws have a very real effect on what happens going forward 10:02.240 --> 10:06.080 in the congressional elections next year, the midterm elections, and, of course, beyond. 10:06.080 --> 10:08.240 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right. 10:08.240 --> 10:13.240 I think, a few shows ago, I said that these election laws were a solution 10:14.160 --> 10:18.560 in search of a problem. And I cannot remember the person who sent me an e-mail, 10:18.560 --> 10:23.280 but they wrote me and said, listen, stop saying that because it's not true, 10:23.280 --> 10:28.280 because, from the Republican perspective, it is a solution in -- to solve a problem. 10:29.200 --> 10:34.200 And the problem from the Republican perspective is too many Democrats voting. And, in the end, 10:35.840 --> 10:40.840 that's what this is all about. The mail-in voting, the absentee balloting that Democrats pushed hard 10:41.920 --> 10:46.920 because of the problems with the Postal Service, because of fears of going out in public because 10:46.960 --> 10:51.960 of the pandemic, Democrats, who used to not vote by mail and not absentee vote, did it in droves 10:55.200 --> 11:00.200 in the safest election in American history, as we learned from the federal government. 11:01.200 --> 11:06.200 And so all of these laws are about stopping as many Democrats as possible from voting, 11:06.480 --> 11:11.480 as a means of increasing Republican power and increasing their chances of retaking the House. 11:11.840 --> 11:14.000 JUDY WOODRUFF: Only a little more than a minute left. 11:14.000 --> 11:19.000 But I do want to finally quickly ask both of you, David, about this idea of how the 11:19.760 --> 11:24.640 insurrection at the Capitol is investigated. I interviewed Speaker Pelosi this week. She said 11:24.640 --> 11:29.120 it's not something that should be chosen by the president, it needs to come from Congress. 11:29.120 --> 11:32.080 And, right now, Republicans and Democrats are at loggerheads. 11:32.080 --> 11:36.960 DAVID BROOKS: I'm dubious. I support the idea, I guess, but I'm dubious they can come up with a 11:37.680 --> 11:40.720 commission filled with people who have credibility on both sides. 11:40.720 --> 11:43.840 When the 9/11 Commission happened, we had people like Lee Hamilton and Governor 11:44.640 --> 11:47.680 Kean of New Jersey leading it, people who really were 11:47.680 --> 11:51.440 part of the establishment center. We don't have as many people like that. 11:51.440 --> 11:55.120 And even those who are in the establishment center have less credibility with the polarized wings. 11:55.760 --> 11:58.080 And so it looks -- I'm much more pessimistic than 11:58.080 --> 12:01.440 I would have been after 9/11 that we can put together a commission that we trust. 12:01.440 --> 12:03.120 JUDY WOODRUFF: And Jonathan? 12:03.120 --> 12:07.600 JONATHAN CAPEHART: But we have to put together a commission. It must be done. 12:07.600 --> 12:12.600 The horror of January 6, the tipping point that those events put American democracy on, we cannot 12:13.920 --> 12:18.920 forget it. We must investigate it. We must find out what really happened, what truly happened, 12:18.960 --> 12:23.280 all the things that we don't know about right now. It must be put before the American people, 12:23.280 --> 12:27.040 so that, at a minimum, we can try to not have that happen again. 12:27.040 --> 12:30.800 JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, I know we are going to continue to ask those questions. 12:31.360 --> 12:36.360 In the meantime, we thank you both, Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks. Have a good weekend. 12:36.400 --> 12:38.320 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Judy. You too. 12:38.320 --> 12:43.320 See you, David.