1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,280 JUDY WOODRUFF: To reflect a little on what Senator Warren had to say and more 2 00:00:03,280 --> 00:00:07,200 on the events of this week, it's time for Brooks and Capehart. 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,080 That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,120 Jonathan Capehart, columnist for The Washington Post. 5 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:18,000 It is so good to see both of you, smiling faces on this Friday evening. 6 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,640 And I do want to get to Senator Warren, David, 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,280 but first let me ask you about today's jobs numbers. They were disappointing. 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,040 It was expected there would be many hundreds of thousands more than there were. 9 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:34,040 Do these numbers say something about, frankly, the wisdom of President Biden's economic plans? 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,160 DAVID BROOKS: Maybe. I don't think we know yet. 11 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:42,560 But we're doing two gigantic experiments that are really unprecedented in American history. 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,720 We have never spent $6 trillion in such a short period of time, 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:51,120 and gone into debt while doing it. If the two other Biden plan passes, it'll be $10 trillion. 14 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,400 At the same time, we have never seen Fed expansionary policy this momentous. And 15 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,800 so this is an experiment. And maybe it'll pay off, but maybe there will be inflation. Warren 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,320 Buffett's a little worried about inflation. Other people are worried about inflation. 17 00:01:04,320 --> 00:01:09,280 Maybe, as Michael Strain said earlier in the program, the fact that people are paid to stay 18 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,520 home means I don't want to get a job. I can hang out at home, what seems a lot better. 19 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,200 And so we -- I don't think we know the answer to what happened. But it was a shocking 20 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,280 number. And we just have to pay attention to the fact that this could go sideways in 21 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,680 a million ways, because we're doing something really risky. 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,040 JUDY WOODRUFF: Jonathan, do you see that this makes some sort 23 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,440 of statement about what President Biden's doing? 24 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,480 JONATHAN CAPEHART: I don't think so, not yet. 25 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:37,480 We cannot grade the entirety of President Biden's 26 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,760 fiscal plans based on one unemployment number. We have got to look at the long haul here. And so 27 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:50,760 the jury's out on that. However, we have to think about all the things that David 28 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:56,120 was just talking about, in terms of the inflationary concerns and all of that. 29 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,520 We have to also talk about the fact that we're also dealing with -- still with a 30 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,520 global pandemic, people being reticent. As much as folks want to get out and 31 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,400 restart their lives, there are a lot of people who, like, can't find jobs, 32 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,040 are too afraid to get out there, for fear of what's going to happen with the pandemic. 33 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,920 And, also, on top of all of it, even though lots of states are starting to reopen, 34 00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:26,000 some more fully, like New York, New Jersey and Connecticut have announced, 35 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,880 but they're still slowly reopening. So I think it's a little too early, 36 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,880 Judy and David, to start being gloom and doom over the state of the economy, not just yet. 37 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,880 JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, in connection with all this, 38 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,640 you heard Senator Warren. I asked her about her plans to tax the wealthy. 39 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:47,600 She has a much more, shall we say, ambitious 40 00:02:48,640 --> 00:02:52,640 set of proposals even than what President Biden has put out there. 41 00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:57,640 David, what do you -- where do you see any of this going with regard to taxing the wealthiest 42 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,800 in order to pay for what he wants to do? 43 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:02,720 DAVID BROOKS: Well, it's pretty popular. 44 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,640 And it's also just a fact that wealth is concentrated 45 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,160 over the last 30 or 40 years. It's also just a fact that corporations have done extremely well, 46 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,000 and corporate profits have done pretty well. 47 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,880 So, if you want to tax things to pay for things, these are probably the least bad things to tax. 48 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,920 There is going to be a cost. When you raise the corporate tax rate, and, 49 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:25,600 on the margins, companies will flock to a place with a lower corporate tax 50 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,840 rate than a higher corporate tax rate. That's probably true on the margins. But it seems to 51 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,920 me the Biden administration has chosen the appropriate areas to raise taxes. 52 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:38,720 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Jonathan, what do you see when you look at 53 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,080 taxes and President Biden and what Senator Warren's saying? 54 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:47,080 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, one, I agree with David in the last point that he made. 55 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:52,320 But let's also remember they're still in the middle of negotiations. And even though 56 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,480 I think the initial number the president has put out there, wanting to raise the corporate 57 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,480 tax rate to 28 percent from 21 percent, and, before that, under Trump, it was 35 percent, 58 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,720 and he lowered it that much, that the president and the administration has been -- have been 59 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,720 sending signals all along that they're willing to negotiate, willing to negotiate on that piece. 60 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:17,000 As for Senator Warren, of course, she is going to shoot for the moon and the stars 61 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,400 as a means of, one, because she believes that fully, 62 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,960 firmly believes it, but also as a way of trying to push the president further, push him to do 63 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,880 more than maybe he is constitutional -- he thinks he's constitutionally capable of. 64 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,680 But if the American -- if the American Rescue Plan 65 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,280 is any indicator, I don't think she's going to have to push too hard to get 66 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:46,280 the president to think imaginatively about how to go about his policy -- his plans. 67 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,960 JUDY WOODRUFF: Let's talk about the Republicans, David, a lot going on in 68 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:57,400 that party this -- the last few days, and, next week, a vote upcoming among House Republicans. 69 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:03,240 It looks like they are going to kick out Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming as the 70 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:08,360 conference chair in the House, because she's not only insufficiently loyal to President 71 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:13,600 Trump. She's saying he actively should not be the person the party's following. 72 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,960 What does all this say about the Republican Party? 73 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,600 DAVID BROOKS: Well, it's still Donald Trump's party. 74 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,200 It shows that you have to -- more or less, as everyone is pointing out, 75 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:28,200 you shouldn't have to be a lie to qualify -- you have to lie to qualify to be a Republican. And 76 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:33,400 that's the standard that is now being laid down. And Elizabeth Cheney just didn't want to lie. 77 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,880 There's also a lot of internal politics here, that 78 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,080 what they want from the person in a leadership role is the ability to get them reelected. 79 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,240 And so the House members are worried that, because she keeps picking on this issue, 80 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,760 she's going to be less effective at raising money and getting them reelected. 81 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,400 Elise Stefanik, the person who's probably going to replace her, 82 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:58,040 has read the party. She was a Harvard educated person who worked in the Bush administration, 83 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,760 endorsed John Kasich, and sat out the 2016 convention because Donald Trump was going 84 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,760 to be the nominee. Ruth Marcus, our friend, has a good column on this. 85 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,760 And she's now a roaring Trumper. And so she's read the winds. And that's what this is all about. 86 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,000 JUDY WOODRUFF: In fact, Elise Stefanik just said in an interview, Jonathan, 87 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,000 yesterday that President Trump is the strongest president ever when it comes 88 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,040 to standing up for the U.S. Constitution. 89 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,800 But what do you -- what does all this say, from your perspective, about 90 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,880 what Republicans are -- where they're headed? 91 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,720 JONATHAN CAPEHART: That quote you just read from Congresswoman Stefanik just 92 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,960 sort of proves what David was just talking about. 93 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,600 In order to be in the leadership, but also to be considered a Republican, 94 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,400 you have to lie. All of this tells me that the Republican Party has officially lost 95 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:49,400 its way. It is not about values and substantive issues and being a policy 96 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,720 counterweight to the Democratic Party. It is all about being loyal to Donald Trump, one. 97 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,960 But, also, when it comes to the House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, it's do anything, 98 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,000 say anything to ensure, you hope, that you are in good position to retake the House in 2022. 99 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:15,320 Elizabeth -- Congresswoman Cheney is a conservative. She is a conservative. 100 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:21,400 Elise Stefanik, by comparison, from Upstate New York is a moderate. And when you look at -- the 101 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,880 Club For Growth gives Elise Stefanik a 35 percent rating. The Heritage Foundation 102 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:34,280 gives Elizabeth Cheney an 80 percent rating and Elise Stefanik a 48 percent rating. 103 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,600 And if you want to talk about fealty and loyalty to Donald Trump, Congresswoman Cheney 104 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,920 voted with Donald Trump 92.9 percent of the time, as compared to Elise Stefanik, who voted 105 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,800 with him 77 percent of the -- 77 percent of the time. And this is data from FiveThirtyEight. 106 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,760 So, it's like the Soul Train Scramble Board here. It's going to take a while to figure out what 107 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:06,360 they're -- what the Republican Party is all about, really. But, right now, the Republican Party 108 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:12,520 is about Donald Trump, only about Donald Trump, and how Donald Trump feels about everything. 109 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,760 And one last point, Judy. I know I'm going on. The number one reason why Congresswoman 110 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:23,120 Cheney is in trouble is because Donald Trump hates her for telling the truth. 111 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:28,120 JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, David, as both of you are saying, it is not only what 112 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,760 Congresswoman Cheney -- or Congresswoman Stefanik is saying about former President 113 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,760 Trump, but it's also her -- her continuing to insist, along with so many other Republicans, 114 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:44,120 that the election -- in her words, she said election fraud was widespread last year. 115 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:50,520 She has spoken out for this recount going on in Maricopa County, Arizona, that's 116 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,360 paid for only by Republicans -- or being sponsored only by Republicans. 117 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,800 So, I mean, this says something about future elections as well. 118 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,800 DAVID BROOKS: Yes, in a country with a lot of problems, the Republicans have picked the one 119 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,560 area that's not broken to address all their energy on. And that's elections. 120 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:14,160 And so they -- all these laws, I doubt they will have a huge effect. I think studies 121 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:19,720 show that they don't have a big effect on damping down turnout. But it's just a -- given 122 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,840 American history -- Jonathan and I have talked about it before -- it's just a horrific look. 123 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:28,800 And the amount of energy going into it, and the fact that Florida Governor DeSantis did it, 124 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:34,600 announced is the signing of Florida's new election law on FOX, who does a news event on one network? 125 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:35,973 (LAUGHTER) 126 00:09:35,973 --> 00:09:40,973 DAVID BROOKS: I mean, this -- it just shows we are in a land of theater. It's not about anything 127 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:46,240 but the symbols of showing Donald Trump is right about the election and there was a lot of fraud. 128 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,240 And it's a theatrical gesture, a Potemkin set of laws to just reinforce the Trump narrative. 129 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,560 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Jonathan, as both of you have said, 130 00:09:55,680 --> 00:10:00,680 these election laws have a very real effect on what happens going forward 131 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:06,080 in the congressional elections next year, the midterm elections, and, of course, beyond. 132 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,240 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right. 133 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:13,240 I think, a few shows ago, I said that these election laws were a solution 134 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,560 in search of a problem. And I cannot remember the person who sent me an e-mail, 135 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:23,280 but they wrote me and said, listen, stop saying that because it's not true, 136 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:28,280 because, from the Republican perspective, it is a solution in -- to solve a problem. 137 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:34,200 And the problem from the Republican perspective is too many Democrats voting. And, in the end, 138 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,840 that's what this is all about. The mail-in voting, the absentee balloting that Democrats pushed hard 139 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:46,920 because of the problems with the Postal Service, because of fears of going out in public because 140 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,960 of the pandemic, Democrats, who used to not vote by mail and not absentee vote, did it in droves 141 00:10:55,200 --> 00:11:00,200 in the safest election in American history, as we learned from the federal government. 142 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:06,200 And so all of these laws are about stopping as many Democrats as possible from voting, 143 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:11,480 as a means of increasing Republican power and increasing their chances of retaking the House. 144 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,000 JUDY WOODRUFF: Only a little more than a minute left. 145 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:19,000 But I do want to finally quickly ask both of you, David, about this idea of how the 146 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,640 insurrection at the Capitol is investigated. I interviewed Speaker Pelosi this week. She said 147 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:29,120 it's not something that should be chosen by the president, it needs to come from Congress. 148 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,080 And, right now, Republicans and Democrats are at loggerheads. 149 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,960 DAVID BROOKS: I'm dubious. I support the idea, I guess, but I'm dubious they can come up with a 150 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:40,720 commission filled with people who have credibility on both sides. 151 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,840 When the 9/11 Commission happened, we had people like Lee Hamilton and Governor 152 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,680 Kean of New Jersey leading it, people who really were 153 00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:51,440 part of the establishment center. We don't have as many people like that. 154 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,120 And even those who are in the establishment center have less credibility with the polarized wings. 155 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,080 And so it looks -- I'm much more pessimistic than 156 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,440 I would have been after 9/11 that we can put together a commission that we trust. 157 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,120 JUDY WOODRUFF: And Jonathan? 158 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,600 JONATHAN CAPEHART: But we have to put together a commission. It must be done. 159 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:12,600 The horror of January 6, the tipping point that those events put American democracy on, we cannot 160 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,920 forget it. We must investigate it. We must find out what really happened, what truly happened, 161 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,280 all the things that we don't know about right now. It must be put before the American people, 162 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,040 so that, at a minimum, we can try to not have that happen again. 163 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,800 JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, I know we are going to continue to ask those questions. 164 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:36,360 In the meantime, we thank you both, Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks. Have a good weekend. 165 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,320 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Judy. You too. 166 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:43,320 See you, David.