1
00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:09,333
Can parents be held responsible 
when# 
their child commits a mass 
shooting?##

2
00:00:09,333 --> 00:00:12,866
In this particular case, the 
teenage# 
shooter has already been 
convicted.

3
00:00:12,866 --> 00:00:14,933
But, as William Brangham 
reports, officials are##

4
00:00:14,933 --> 00:00:22,100
also seeking to prosecute his 
parents in#

5
00:00:22,100 --> 00:00:26,766
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: On November 
30,# 
2021, tragedy came to snowy 
Oxford##

6
00:00:26,766 --> 00:00:33,866
High School in Michigan. A 
student opened fire,# 
killing four students, injuring 
seven others.

7
00:00:33,866 --> 00:00:37,300
The gunman, then 15-year-old 
Ethan Crumbley,##

8
00:00:37,300 --> 00:00:45,000
received a life sentence last 
year. But now# 
his parents, James and Jennifer

9
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:50,266
fa 
ce their own charges of 
involuntary# 
manslaughter. It is a 
first-of-its-kind##

10
00:00:50,266 --> 00:00:55,833
effort to hold parents 
criminally responsible# 
for a school shooting done by 
their child.

11
00:00:55,833 --> 00:00:59,866
WOMAN: This case is 
unprecedented in# 
Oakland County and perhaps the 
state.

12
00:00:59,866 --> 00:01:03,600
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Prosecutors 
say# 
the Crumbleys new Ethan was 
troubled,##

13
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,366
but acted negligently. James 
Crumbley# 
bought for his son the gun he 
used##

14
00:01:08,366 --> 00:01:13,366
to kill his classmates. 
Concerns# 
flagged by the school went 
unheeded.

15
00:01:13,366 --> 00:01:16,333
The day before the shooting, on 
November 29,##

16
00:01:16,333 --> 00:01:21,366
Oxford High informed Jennifer 
Crumbley# 
that her son was looking

17
00:01:21,366 --> 00:01:28,333
on his phone. She texted him: 
"LOL. I'm not# 
mad. You have to learn not to 
get caught."

18
00:01:28,333 --> 00:01:33,600
Hours before the shooting 
began, teachers# 
discovered this worksheet on 
Ethan's desk##

19
00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,600
covered with violent warning 
signs.# 
Below a drawing of a gun, he 
wrote:##

20
00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:45,066
"The thoughts won't stop. Help 
me" and# 
"Blood everywhere" and a 
drawing of a bullet.

21
00:01:45,066 --> 00:01:48,333
When a teacher saw the sheet,# 
he scratched much of it out,##

22
00:01:48,333 --> 00:01:53,666
including what appears to be a 
shooting victim# 
dripping with blood. Ethan's

23
00:01:53,666 --> 00:01:57,933
into school that morning, but 
officials# 
say they resisted taking him 
home and##

24
00:01:57,933 --> 00:02:03,866
made no mention of any gun. 
Shortly after# 
they left, their son began his 
rampage.

25
00:02:03,866 --> 00:02:06,300
When news of the shooting# 
got out in the community,##

26
00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:12,566
Jennifer Crumbley texted her 
son, writing:# 
"Ethan

27
00:02:12,566 --> 00:02:15,266
Karen McDonald is the Oakland 
county prosecutor.

28
00:02:15,266 --> 00:02:16,933
KAREN MCDONALD, Oakland 
County,# 
Michigan, Prosecutor: Th

29
00:02:16,933 --> 00:02:22,566
that a parent could read those

30
00:02:22,566 --> 00:02:28,900
to 
a deadly weapon that they 
gave him is# 
unconscionable, and I think 
it's criminal.

31
00:02:28,900 --> 00:02:32,400
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The defense 
claims# 
the Crumbley had no way of 
knowing how##

32
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:37,700
troubled their son really was.# 
Both have pleaded not guilty.

33
00:02:37,700 --> 00:02:42,066
For more on this case and its 
broader# 
implications, I'm joined by 
Ekow Yankah.##

34
00:02:42,066 --> 00:02:47,133
He's the Thomas M. Cooley 
professor# 
of law at the University of 
Michigan.

35
00:02:47,133 --> 00:02:50,800
Professor Yankah, thank you so 
much# 
for being back on the 
"NewsHour."

36
00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,966
I mean, as a scholar of the 
law, what# 
do you make of this case? I 
mean,##

37
00:02:53,966 --> 00:03:01,133
it is not that common that we 
hold other# 
people responsible for the

38
00:03:01,133 --> 00:03:02,466
EK 
OW YANKAH, University of 
Michigan# 
Law School: No, that's exactly 
right.

39
00:03:02,466 --> 00:03:09,333
In fact, one of the fi

40
00:03:09,333 --> 00:03:15,666
is that, even under some really 
awful facts,# 
when other people take action, 
that, as we say,##

41
00:03:15,666 --> 00:03:22,200
severs the causal chain. It 
makes it not your# 
action. It's a classic example 
in first-year##

42
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:27,766
law school to say that, if you 
give somebody a# 
gun and they threaten to kill 
themselves, and##

43
00:03:27,766 --> 00:03:33,100
you give them the gun, you 
encourage them to kill# 
themselves, and they do, you're 
not responsible.

44
00:03:33,100 --> 00:03:38,300
So, even under odious 
circumstances, you're# 
typically not responsible. That 
being said,##

45
00:03:38,300 --> 00:03:43,266
one of the things we do to our 
law students# 
is push them on how far these 
examples can##

46
00:03:43,266 --> 00:03:47,533
go. How terrible do I have to 
make# 
the facts? How odious do I have 
to##

47
00:03:47,533 --> 00:03:52,700
make it? How close to the edge 
before# 
you finally say the law has to 
give?

48
00:03:52,700 --> 00:03:57,566
And the truth is, if I was 
coming up with an exam# 
question, I couldn't come up 
with facts that were##

49
00:03:57,566 --> 00:04:04,800
more upsetting, more cutting, 
and seemingly more# 
disturbing than the ones we 
have in this case.

50
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,466
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Given all of# 
that about the law, what do 
you##

51
00:04:07,466 --> 00:04:12,200
think are the biggest 
challenges facing the# 
prosecutio

52
00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,000
EKOW YANKAH: So, I think there# 
are two challenges. The one 
we##

53
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,600
already spoke about is just 
the#

54
00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:22,900
An 
d that's something that is 
deep in our legal# 
culture. That is, human beings 
ar

55
00:04:22,900 --> 00:04:30,166
for their own actions. And so 
the prosecution here# 
is going to be going up against 
what every judge,##

56
00:04:30,166 --> 00:04:33,200
what every other lawyer has 
learned,# 
what every defense lawyer has 
learned,##

57
00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,933
and what they're going to be 
conveying# 
to the jury as our bedrock

58
00:04:37,933 --> 00:04:43,600
Bu 
t setting aside the legal 
machinations,# 
there's also just what the law 
reflects,##

59
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,500
the kind of moral intuition 
that we# 
aren't responsible when other 
people##

60
00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:52,766
do bad things. And that's going 
to be true# 
even when these facts are 
heartbreaking,##

61
00:04:52,766 --> 00:04:57,466
because you're going to have 
people thinking# 
about, of course, I'm doing my 
best to be a##

62
00:04:57,466 --> 00:05:01,566
great parent. Of course, I'm 
trying to bring# 
my child up to be successful 
and flourishing.

63
00:05:01,566 --> 00:05:07,166
But what if you have a child 
who's difficult,# 
problematic, has shoplifted, 
gets in fights##

64
00:05:07,166 --> 00:05:11,666
at school? I think, quite 
outside of the dry,# 
technical legal language, 
there's going to be##

65
00:05:11,666 --> 00:05:21,733
a lot of people out there who 
just think, when,# 
13, 16, 17, 18, when will it be 
the case that I##

66
00:05:21,733 --> 00:05:27,166
can't be held responsible, no 
matter the best I# 
do for my child, for their 
abhorrent behavior?

67
00:05:27,166 --> 00:05:32,166
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Does the fact 
that Michigan# 
passed a law that in essence 
makes it a crime##

68
00:05:32,166 --> 00:05:37,900
for you not to secure a gun and 
a minor# 
gets access to that, doesn't 
that imply##

69
00:05:37,900 --> 00:05:44,666
sort of de facto that what 
these parents# 
did at the time wasn't against 
the law?

70
00:05:44,666 --> 00:05:50,933
EKOW YANKAH: Well, you're 
certainly right that,# 
in the wake of the of highly 
visible events,##

71
00:05:50,933 --> 00:05:56,800
we often pass laws. And that is 
by some# 
people going to be taken as a 
defense.

72
00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,466
But, of course, sometimes we 
pass laws to# 
make our legal responsibilities 
more clear##

73
00:06:01,466 --> 00:06:05,966
or to help fill a lacuna. And 
to be perfectly# 
honest, criminal law scholars 
know that we##

74
00:06:05,966 --> 00:06:10,333
often pass laws just to add 
penalties# 
to things that are already 
illegal.

75
00:06:10,333 --> 00:06:16,366
So, for example, I remember 
when Philadelphia# 
passed an anti-carjacking 
statute. It was,##

76
00:06:16,366 --> 00:06:19,900
frankly, an opportunity for 
public officials# 
to say we're doing something 
about it. But##

77
00:06:19,900 --> 00:06:25,333
nobody really thinks that, 
before that# 
law was passed, carjacking was 
legal.

78
00:06:25,333 --> 00:06:28,300
So, of course, they will make 
the argument# 
that this wasn't illegal when 
it happened,##

79
00:06:28,300 --> 00:06:31,766
but the prosecutor's going to 
argue# 
that this was criminally

80
00:06:31,766 --> 00:06:36,566
ev 
en under the slew of statues 
they had# 
before this specific law was 
passed.

81
00:06:36,566 --> 00:06:40,766
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, this 
prosecutor# 
has made it very clear that she 
hopes that##

82
00:06:40,766 --> 00:06:47,466
this will spur other gun owners 
basically to# 
do a better job of securing 
their firearms.

83
00:06:47,466 --> 00:06:53,366
And I'm just curious if you 
think that, if# 
this prosecution is successful, 
that this##

84
00:06:53,366 --> 00:07:00,600
will spur other prosecutors in 
other states maybe# 
elsewhere in the country to 
take on similar cases.

85
00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:05,066
EKOW YANKAH: Look, the law 
lives on precedent.# 
And I certainly think it's the 
case, as you said,##

86
00:07:05,066 --> 00:07:09,366
that given that we have this 
kind of deep# 
legal intuition that you're 
never going to##

87
00:07:09,366 --> 00:07:14,733
be responsible for somebody 
else's acts, a# 
successful prosecution in a 
highly visible##

88
00:07:14,733 --> 00:07:19,766
and painful case of a school 
shooting# 
is going to rocket across the 
country.

89
00:07:19,766 --> 00:07:25,166
It's not an accident that it'll 
be on PBS,# 
on all the major news channels. 
And that##

90
00:07:25,166 --> 00:07:32,133
will give prosecutors one more 
tool in their# 
arsenal. Because of the nature 
of precedent,##

91
00:07:32,133 --> 00:07:36,933
and because any time you do 
something# 
unprecedented, legal actors are 
going to##

92
00:07:36,933 --> 00:07:42,100
take notice, I think there's no 
question that# 
prosecutors are going to use 
this as a tool.

93
00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:46,800
Sadly, we should also admit 
these cases are# 
incredibly painful and 
incredibly visible##

94
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:52,933
and all too repetitive. And so 
the fact that# 
there's a successful 
prosecution in this case##

95
00:07:52,933 --> 00:07:57,633
will -- if there's a successful 
prosecution in# 
this case, there will almost 
certainly be another.

96
00:07:57,633 --> 00:07:58,700
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, 
Ekow Yankah,##

97
00:07:58,700 --> 00:08:02,333
professor of l

98
00:08:02,333 --> 00:08:15,933
EKOW YANKAH: Thank you for 
having me.