WEBVTT 00:02.066 --> 00:04.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: Since the Supreme Court struck down affirmative action in college admissions, 00:04.000 --> 00:07.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% questions remain over how this will affect students 00:07.433 --> 00:10.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% moving forward and who will be most impacted. 00:10.200 --> 00:12.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The court sided with plaintiffs, 00:12.266 --> 00:16.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% who argued race-conscious admissions discriminate against Asian Americans. 00:16.533 --> 00:21.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But how do Asian American students feel about the loss of race-based college admissions? 00:23.533 --> 00:26.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Let's hear first from some who support the decision and then those that oppose it. 00:26.433 --> 00:29.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFF HOU, High School Student: I was overjoyed with the decision. I believe 00:29.566 --> 00:33.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that the Supreme Court got this right and that affirmative action needed to go. 00:33.200 --> 00:38.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Obviously, this doesn't guarantee us entry into any college we want. But what this does guarantee 00:40.733 --> 00:44.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% me is that I know that everything that happens is not because of something I can't control. And if 00:46.200 --> 00:49.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I don't get in, it's because I could have just worked harder. It's because I should 00:49.033 --> 00:52.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have studied more, not because of something that I can't change, which is in my race. 00:52.300 --> 00:56.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JAYSON, High School Student: They take away opportunities from certain 00:56.166 --> 01:00.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ethnic groups in order to benefit others, which is completely racist. 01:00.200 --> 01:05.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And Asian Americans such as me and my peers, we have worked extremely hard. And we fear that our 01:08.633 --> 01:13.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% college admissions will be denied because of our race. I was considering, like, opting if -- opting 01:16.066 --> 01:20.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% out of my race in the college admissions process. But I think now that affirmative action is gone, 01:24.033 --> 01:29.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it's just more fair. And if I don't get into the college I want to get into it's 01:30.933 --> 01:34.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% not something that I can't control. And it's more of, like, I could have worked harder. 01:34.200 --> 01:37.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUSTIN WANG, College Student: I come from a pretty privileged family, right, 01:39.800 --> 01:43.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% relatively affluent. And I understand that I perhaps do have some advantages over many others. 01:46.166 --> 01:51.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% However, I think that disadvantage is not from the color of my skin, right? 01:53.233 --> 01:55.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I don't want to -- I don't want to be judged on that. 01:55.800 --> 01:58.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% AMY LUM, College Student: I definitely believe that affirmative action is beneficial to Asian 01:58.533 --> 02:03.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Americans. The Asian American community is a very diverse community. We have, 02:05.366 --> 02:09.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% like, Hmong people, Vietnamese people, Cambodian people, Chinese people. 02:09.466 --> 02:13.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We have all sorts of different cultures. And so affirmative action is one of those 02:13.833 --> 02:18.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% things that ensures that our culture is represented and that we all have a voice. 02:20.300 --> 02:22.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ZOE CHOE, College Student: Race is something that, historically, 02:22.866 --> 02:27.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% has been very important in shaping the lives of current -- of people currently, and that's not 02:30.266 --> 02:33.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% something that I think can be ignored, especially on a level when people are applying to colleges. 02:35.433 --> 02:38.966 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% WENA TENG, College Student: I actually wrote a paper in high school against affirmative action, 02:41.366 --> 02:45.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% because a lot of the conversation in my household and growing up was always on the idea of, like, 02:47.733 --> 02:51.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% meritocracy, which a lot of people against affirmative action are talking about now, 02:51.633 --> 02:54.233 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and this idea of survival. 02:54.233 --> 02:58.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Again, if you work so hard, you should be able to deserve it. But, as I'm now going through the 03:02.333 --> 03:06.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% reality of this country and navigating all these systems and spaces, I'm starting to realize that 03:06.933 --> 03:11.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% meritocracy is only an illusion, and that there are just so many, again, factors that 03:13.300 --> 03:15.433 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% make meritocracy incredibly hard. 03:15.433 --> 03:19.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LUCAS LIN, College Student: Until we progress to -- in a society where, 03:19.366 --> 03:23.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think, I don't know, maybe Americans can truly be race-blind, or we can truly 03:25.700 --> 03:29.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% acknowledge each others as equals, or be more holistic in our interpretations and 03:29.100 --> 03:34.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% our understanding of others and our identities, I think that affirmative action still has a place. 03:34.000 --> 03:39.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: To dig more deeply into those views, I'm joined by Janelle Wong. She's 03:41.533 --> 03:44.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% a political scientist and the director of Asian American studies at the University of Maryland. 03:44.100 --> 03:48.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And Susana Liu-Hedberg, the executive director of the education nonprofit The 1990 Institute. 03:50.866 --> 03:51.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Welcome to you both. 03:51.833 --> 03:53.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Janelle, I will begin with you. 03:53.333 --> 03:56.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Based on your work and the research that you have done, 03:56.533 --> 03:59.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and what you just heard from those students there, 03:59.200 --> 04:03.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% how do you believe that Asian American students will be impacted by the Supreme Court's decision? 04:05.466 --> 04:06.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JANELLE WONG, Professor of American Studies, University of Maryland-College Park: So, 04:06.566 --> 04:08.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm a senior researcher at AAPI Data. 04:08.666 --> 04:12.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And we have been asking Asian American registered voters this question about 04:12.033 --> 04:17.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% whether they favor or oppose affirmative action programs designed to help Black people, 04:19.066 --> 04:22.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% women and other minorities get better access to education. And, for more than 10 years, we have 04:24.266 --> 04:27.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% found consistent support for affirmative action among Asian Americans interviewed in language. 04:27.933 --> 04:32.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And young people, just like those you heard from, on the whole are even more supportive. 04:34.966 --> 04:38.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So I recognize the value of hearing from diverse voices. But, on the whole, I think 04:41.200 --> 04:43.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Asian American students are going to really miss the diversity that happens when you have a program 04:47.866 --> 04:52.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% in place that systematically accounts for lack of access for some groups to the college campus. 04:54.300 --> 04:57.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: Susana, one of the students mentioned 04:57.166 --> 05:02.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Asian American comprises a very broad range of racial and ethnic backgrounds. 05:03.766 --> 05:06.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And, to Janelle's point, they do broadly support affirmative action. 05:06.833 --> 05:10.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But does that support change based on which group you're talking about? 05:10.833 --> 05:12.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% SUSANA LIU-HEDBERG, The 1990 Institute: It does change. 05:12.833 --> 05:17.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And as we delve deeper and disaggregate data, the myth of the Asian American monolith and 05:19.833 --> 05:24.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the model minority myth correlate in this way. And we see this playing out with, for example, 05:26.900 --> 05:30.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the June Pew Research survey which showed that the Asian -- that Asian Americans have 05:32.633 --> 05:35.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% mixed views on affirmative action and of what -- the interviews that you saw. 05:37.766 --> 05:42.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, first of all, just uplifting the Pew Research survey that was done a few years ago that 05:44.933 --> 05:49.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% showcased 30-plus different ethnicities that are under one Asian American monolith, that we all, 05:52.500 --> 05:57.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% 30-plus ethnicities, are the same, we experience the same things, desire the same things. And when 05:59.766 --> 06:03.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% we disaggregate this data, we find that not every Asian American has the same lived experience. 06:03.166 --> 06:08.166 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And the study even delves deeper into each ethnicity and where they 06:10.033 --> 06:13.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% fall within poverty and education, including access to higher education. 06:13.300 --> 06:16.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: There's a couple of really good ideas in there I want to pull apart. 06:16.433 --> 06:20.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But, Janelle, I want to put to you some of those numbers that Susana just referenced. 06:20.133 --> 06:25.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% When you take a look at those Pew numbers on Asian American views of affirmative action, 06:27.133 --> 06:30.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% overall, 53 percent of those surveyed say it's a good thing. They support affirmative action. 06:32.200 --> 06:35.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But then 76 percent said race should not be a factor in admissions, and in 53 percent 06:37.333 --> 06:42.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% said that considering race and ethnicity in admissions would make the process less fair. 06:44.033 --> 06:47.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Janelle, those seem to be contradictory ideas. So what should we understand about that? 06:49.566 --> 06:52.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JANELLE WONG: So with the Pew question race and ethnicity as a factor, it provides very 06:54.533 --> 06:58.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% little context to respondents. It asks if race should be a major, minor or no factor. 07:00.533 --> 07:03.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And that is not how admissions works in the real world. Race has been considered holistically. So, 07:05.633 --> 07:09.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in race-conscious admissions, race is never the only factor considered, nor is that the 07:09.933 --> 07:14.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% primary factor. But many think it is. And this may affect how they respond to that question. 07:14.700 --> 07:19.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Some with this question may not even know that they're being asked about affirmative 07:19.666 --> 07:24.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% action. And I think what's really critical here is that other studies have shown that 07:26.133 --> 07:28.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a majority of Asian Americans do support affirmative action. 07:28.733 --> 07:33.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But Susana is right. There's one group that doesn't support affirmative action 07:33.466 --> 07:36.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% consistently. And that is my own group, Chinese Americans. 07:36.466 --> 07:38.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: And what should we understand about 07:38.333 --> 07:41.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% why that view is held among Chinese Americans, Janelle? 07:43.066 --> 07:46.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JANELLE WONG: Well, Susana mentioned the model minority myth. This is the idea that 07:46.366 --> 07:50.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Asian Americans have a special value for education and are uber-competent. 07:50.733 --> 07:54.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Jacqueline Lee and her colleagues show that the internalization and 07:54.900 --> 07:59.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% endorsement of this model minority myth is associated with anti-Black attitudes among 08:01.933 --> 08:05.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Asian Americans and associated with skepticism about affirmative action. 08:07.000 --> 08:10.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Let me be really clear. Asian Americans face racial discrimination, and they are victims 08:12.766 --> 08:15.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of white supremacy. But that is really what gave this Supreme Court case power. 08:15.400 --> 08:19.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Edward Blum recruited Asian American plaintiffs because they are victims 08:19.733 --> 08:24.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of white supremacy, and they shielded his organization from charges of racism. So, 08:26.633 --> 08:30.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the fact is that Black, Latino and Native American students are showing up -- the 08:32.666 --> 08:34.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% fact that they're showing up on these campuses in much smaller proportions 08:34.633 --> 08:38.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% compared to white and Asian students tells us that something is wrong with the system, 08:38.633 --> 08:43.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and that some groups face much higher barriers to accessing education than others. 08:43.600 --> 08:47.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that's not fair, and it does not lead to opportunity for all. 08:47.900 --> 08:52.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: So, Susana, clearly, the views held among the very diverse population that falls 08:55.433 --> 08:58.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% under the category of Asian Americans, it's very complicated and worth unpacking, disaggregating. 08:59.900 --> 09:03.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But when it comes to impact, what do you believe that the Supreme Court's 09:03.166 --> 09:07.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% decisions -- what the impact of that will be on Asian American students? 09:07.300 --> 09:09.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% SUSANA LIU-HEDBERG: First of all, diversity remains 09:09.400 --> 09:12.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% incredibly important in any learning environment. 09:12.233 --> 09:17.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And as we can see from the interviews and also the surveys that we have read, 09:18.900 --> 09:23.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% this issue was and it remains a complex one. The two cases and the 09:23.200 --> 09:28.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ruling tied two mutually exclusive things together. On the one hand, we acknowledge 09:30.133 --> 09:32.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that there needs to be some mechanism in place to support students that have been 09:32.700 --> 09:37.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% historically marginalized and underrepresented to ensure equity in access to higher education. 09:37.366 --> 09:42.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But, on the other hand, if processes are or -- and admissions are based on one certain criteria, 09:44.433 --> 09:48.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% like race, then that does become discriminatory. Now, affirmative action didn't need to be struck 09:50.933 --> 09:54.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% down. But it did need to be fixed. The law, like many other of our laws, is -- it's not perfect. 09:57.000 --> 10:01.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But it was and could have been reworked or implemented differently to reflect 10:01.533 --> 10:06.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% today's needs and address the inequities and the frustration that some of the AAPI community felt, 10:08.133 --> 10:11.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and also in the case of the students that you interviewed here. 10:13.933 --> 10:17.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% The nation really did a disservice to so many minority students by taking a sledgehammer, 10:19.066 --> 10:22.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% basically, to decades of progress. We should have worked together to 10:22.066 --> 10:27.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% find a solution that allowed all historically underrepresented minority students to thrive, 10:28.233 --> 10:30.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which includes Asian American students. 10:30.533 --> 10:35.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, also, now is the time where we're looking to do and see what's next. Now's 10:37.533 --> 10:41.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the time to seize on the opportunity to move forward and really work together, 10:41.000 --> 10:45.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% not just within the AAPI community, but also all affected communities. 10:45.533 --> 10:48.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: That is Susana Liu-Hedberg and Janelle Wong. 10:48.566 --> 10:50.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Thank you both for joining us and bringing 10:50.433 --> 10:53.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% your experience to this very complicated issue. Thank you.