1 00:00:02,066 --> 00:00:04,000 AMNA NAWAZ: Since the Supreme Court struck down affirmative action in college admissions, 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,433 questions remain over how this will affect students 3 00:00:07,433 --> 00:00:10,200 moving forward and who will be most impacted. 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,266 The court sided with plaintiffs, 5 00:00:12,266 --> 00:00:16,533 who argued race-conscious admissions discriminate against Asian Americans. 6 00:00:16,533 --> 00:00:21,533 But how do Asian American students feel about the loss of race-based college admissions? 7 00:00:23,533 --> 00:00:26,433 Let's hear first from some who support the decision and then those that oppose it. 8 00:00:26,433 --> 00:00:29,566 JEFF HOU, High School Student: I was overjoyed with the decision. I believe 9 00:00:29,566 --> 00:00:33,200 that the Supreme Court got this right and that affirmative action needed to go. 10 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:38,166 Obviously, this doesn't guarantee us entry into any college we want. But what this does guarantee 11 00:00:40,733 --> 00:00:44,233 me is that I know that everything that happens is not because of something I can't control. And if 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,033 I don't get in, it's because I could have just worked harder. It's because I should 13 00:00:49,033 --> 00:00:52,300 have studied more, not because of something that I can't change, which is in my race. 14 00:00:52,300 --> 00:00:56,166 JAYSON, High School Student: They take away opportunities from certain 15 00:00:56,166 --> 00:01:00,200 ethnic groups in order to benefit others, which is completely racist. 16 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:05,100 And Asian Americans such as me and my peers, we have worked extremely hard. And we fear that our 17 00:01:08,633 --> 00:01:13,633 college admissions will be denied because of our race. I was considering, like, opting if -- opting 18 00:01:16,066 --> 00:01:20,333 out of my race in the college admissions process. But I think now that affirmative action is gone, 19 00:01:24,033 --> 00:01:29,033 it's just more fair. And if I don't get into the college I want to get into it's 20 00:01:30,933 --> 00:01:34,200 not something that I can't control. And it's more of, like, I could have worked harder. 21 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,433 JUSTIN WANG, College Student: I come from a pretty privileged family, right, 22 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,333 relatively affluent. And I understand that I perhaps do have some advantages over many others. 23 00:01:46,166 --> 00:01:51,133 However, I think that disadvantage is not from the color of my skin, right? 24 00:01:53,233 --> 00:01:55,800 I don't want to -- I don't want to be judged on that. 25 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,533 AMY LUM, College Student: I definitely believe that affirmative action is beneficial to Asian 26 00:01:58,533 --> 00:02:03,500 Americans. The Asian American community is a very diverse community. We have, 27 00:02:05,366 --> 00:02:09,466 like, Hmong people, Vietnamese people, Cambodian people, Chinese people. 28 00:02:09,466 --> 00:02:13,833 We have all sorts of different cultures. And so affirmative action is one of those 29 00:02:13,833 --> 00:02:18,833 things that ensures that our culture is represented and that we all have a voice. 30 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:22,866 ZOE CHOE, College Student: Race is something that, historically, 31 00:02:22,866 --> 00:02:27,733 has been very important in shaping the lives of current -- of people currently, and that's not 32 00:02:30,266 --> 00:02:33,066 something that I think can be ignored, especially on a level when people are applying to colleges. 33 00:02:35,433 --> 00:02:38,966 WENA TENG, College Student: I actually wrote a paper in high school against affirmative action, 34 00:02:41,366 --> 00:02:45,533 because a lot of the conversation in my household and growing up was always on the idea of, like, 35 00:02:47,733 --> 00:02:51,633 meritocracy, which a lot of people against affirmative action are talking about now, 36 00:02:51,633 --> 00:02:54,233 and this idea of survival. 37 00:02:54,233 --> 00:02:58,266 Again, if you work so hard, you should be able to deserve it. But, as I'm now going through the 38 00:03:02,333 --> 00:03:06,933 reality of this country and navigating all these systems and spaces, I'm starting to realize that 39 00:03:06,933 --> 00:03:11,933 meritocracy is only an illusion, and that there are just so many, again, factors that 40 00:03:13,300 --> 00:03:15,433 make meritocracy incredibly hard. 41 00:03:15,433 --> 00:03:19,366 LUCAS LIN, College Student: Until we progress to -- in a society where, 42 00:03:19,366 --> 00:03:23,700 I think, I don't know, maybe Americans can truly be race-blind, or we can truly 43 00:03:25,700 --> 00:03:29,100 acknowledge each others as equals, or be more holistic in our interpretations and 44 00:03:29,100 --> 00:03:34,000 our understanding of others and our identities, I think that affirmative action still has a place. 45 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:39,000 AMNA NAWAZ: To dig more deeply into those views, I'm joined by Janelle Wong. She's 46 00:03:41,533 --> 00:03:44,100 a political scientist and the director of Asian American studies at the University of Maryland. 47 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:48,300 And Susana Liu-Hedberg, the executive director of the education nonprofit The 1990 Institute. 48 00:03:50,866 --> 00:03:51,833 Welcome to you both. 49 00:03:51,833 --> 00:03:53,333 Janelle, I will begin with you. 50 00:03:53,333 --> 00:03:56,533 Based on your work and the research that you have done, 51 00:03:56,533 --> 00:03:59,200 and what you just heard from those students there, 52 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,500 how do you believe that Asian American students will be impacted by the Supreme Court's decision? 53 00:04:05,466 --> 00:04:06,566 JANELLE WONG, Professor of American Studies, University of Maryland-College Park: So, 54 00:04:06,566 --> 00:04:08,666 I'm a senior researcher at AAPI Data. 55 00:04:08,666 --> 00:04:12,033 And we have been asking Asian American registered voters this question about 56 00:04:12,033 --> 00:04:17,033 whether they favor or oppose affirmative action programs designed to help Black people, 57 00:04:19,066 --> 00:04:22,200 women and other minorities get better access to education. And, for more than 10 years, we have 58 00:04:24,266 --> 00:04:27,933 found consistent support for affirmative action among Asian Americans interviewed in language. 59 00:04:27,933 --> 00:04:32,933 And young people, just like those you heard from, on the whole are even more supportive. 60 00:04:34,966 --> 00:04:38,633 So I recognize the value of hearing from diverse voices. But, on the whole, I think 61 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,800 Asian American students are going to really miss the diversity that happens when you have a program 62 00:04:47,866 --> 00:04:52,866 in place that systematically accounts for lack of access for some groups to the college campus. 63 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:57,166 AMNA NAWAZ: Susana, one of the students mentioned 64 00:04:57,166 --> 00:05:02,166 Asian American comprises a very broad range of racial and ethnic backgrounds. 65 00:05:03,766 --> 00:05:06,833 And, to Janelle's point, they do broadly support affirmative action. 66 00:05:06,833 --> 00:05:10,833 But does that support change based on which group you're talking about? 67 00:05:10,833 --> 00:05:12,833 SUSANA LIU-HEDBERG, The 1990 Institute: It does change. 68 00:05:12,833 --> 00:05:17,700 And as we delve deeper and disaggregate data, the myth of the Asian American monolith and 69 00:05:19,833 --> 00:05:24,833 the model minority myth correlate in this way. And we see this playing out with, for example, 70 00:05:26,900 --> 00:05:30,600 the June Pew Research survey which showed that the Asian -- that Asian Americans have 71 00:05:32,633 --> 00:05:35,800 mixed views on affirmative action and of what -- the interviews that you saw. 72 00:05:37,766 --> 00:05:42,133 So, first of all, just uplifting the Pew Research survey that was done a few years ago that 73 00:05:44,933 --> 00:05:49,933 showcased 30-plus different ethnicities that are under one Asian American monolith, that we all, 74 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:57,300 30-plus ethnicities, are the same, we experience the same things, desire the same things. And when 75 00:05:59,766 --> 00:06:03,166 we disaggregate this data, we find that not every Asian American has the same lived experience. 76 00:06:03,166 --> 00:06:08,166 And the study even delves deeper into each ethnicity and where they 77 00:06:10,033 --> 00:06:13,300 fall within poverty and education, including access to higher education. 78 00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:16,433 AMNA NAWAZ: There's a couple of really good ideas in there I want to pull apart. 79 00:06:16,433 --> 00:06:20,133 But, Janelle, I want to put to you some of those numbers that Susana just referenced. 80 00:06:20,133 --> 00:06:25,133 When you take a look at those Pew numbers on Asian American views of affirmative action, 81 00:06:27,133 --> 00:06:30,200 overall, 53 percent of those surveyed say it's a good thing. They support affirmative action. 82 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,300 But then 76 percent said race should not be a factor in admissions, and in 53 percent 83 00:06:37,333 --> 00:06:42,133 said that considering race and ethnicity in admissions would make the process less fair. 84 00:06:44,033 --> 00:06:47,533 Janelle, those seem to be contradictory ideas. So what should we understand about that? 85 00:06:49,566 --> 00:06:52,566 JANELLE WONG: So with the Pew question race and ethnicity as a factor, it provides very 86 00:06:54,533 --> 00:06:58,033 little context to respondents. It asks if race should be a major, minor or no factor. 87 00:07:00,533 --> 00:07:03,600 And that is not how admissions works in the real world. Race has been considered holistically. So, 88 00:07:05,633 --> 00:07:09,933 in race-conscious admissions, race is never the only factor considered, nor is that the 89 00:07:09,933 --> 00:07:14,700 primary factor. But many think it is. And this may affect how they respond to that question. 90 00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:19,666 Some with this question may not even know that they're being asked about affirmative 91 00:07:19,666 --> 00:07:24,666 action. And I think what's really critical here is that other studies have shown that 92 00:07:26,133 --> 00:07:28,733 a majority of Asian Americans do support affirmative action. 93 00:07:28,733 --> 00:07:33,466 But Susana is right. There's one group that doesn't support affirmative action 94 00:07:33,466 --> 00:07:36,466 consistently. And that is my own group, Chinese Americans. 95 00:07:36,466 --> 00:07:38,333 AMNA NAWAZ: And what should we understand about 96 00:07:38,333 --> 00:07:41,033 why that view is held among Chinese Americans, Janelle? 97 00:07:43,066 --> 00:07:46,366 JANELLE WONG: Well, Susana mentioned the model minority myth. This is the idea that 98 00:07:46,366 --> 00:07:50,733 Asian Americans have a special value for education and are uber-competent. 99 00:07:50,733 --> 00:07:54,900 Jacqueline Lee and her colleagues show that the internalization and 100 00:07:54,900 --> 00:07:59,900 endorsement of this model minority myth is associated with anti-Black attitudes among 101 00:08:01,933 --> 00:08:05,033 Asian Americans and associated with skepticism about affirmative action. 102 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,800 Let me be really clear. Asian Americans face racial discrimination, and they are victims 103 00:08:12,766 --> 00:08:15,400 of white supremacy. But that is really what gave this Supreme Court case power. 104 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,733 Edward Blum recruited Asian American plaintiffs because they are victims 105 00:08:19,733 --> 00:08:24,733 of white supremacy, and they shielded his organization from charges of racism. So, 106 00:08:26,633 --> 00:08:30,666 the fact is that Black, Latino and Native American students are showing up -- the 107 00:08:32,666 --> 00:08:34,633 fact that they're showing up on these campuses in much smaller proportions 108 00:08:34,633 --> 00:08:38,633 compared to white and Asian students tells us that something is wrong with the system, 109 00:08:38,633 --> 00:08:43,600 and that some groups face much higher barriers to accessing education than others. 110 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,900 And that's not fair, and it does not lead to opportunity for all. 111 00:08:47,900 --> 00:08:52,900 AMNA NAWAZ: So, Susana, clearly, the views held among the very diverse population that falls 112 00:08:55,433 --> 00:08:58,033 under the category of Asian Americans, it's very complicated and worth unpacking, disaggregating. 113 00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:03,166 But when it comes to impact, what do you believe that the Supreme Court's 114 00:09:03,166 --> 00:09:07,300 decisions -- what the impact of that will be on Asian American students? 115 00:09:07,300 --> 00:09:09,400 SUSANA LIU-HEDBERG: First of all, diversity remains 116 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,233 incredibly important in any learning environment. 117 00:09:12,233 --> 00:09:17,233 And as we can see from the interviews and also the surveys that we have read, 118 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:23,200 this issue was and it remains a complex one. The two cases and the 119 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:28,200 ruling tied two mutually exclusive things together. On the one hand, we acknowledge 120 00:09:30,133 --> 00:09:32,700 that there needs to be some mechanism in place to support students that have been 121 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:37,366 historically marginalized and underrepresented to ensure equity in access to higher education. 122 00:09:37,366 --> 00:09:42,366 But, on the other hand, if processes are or -- and admissions are based on one certain criteria, 123 00:09:44,433 --> 00:09:48,800 like race, then that does become discriminatory. Now, affirmative action didn't need to be struck 124 00:09:50,933 --> 00:09:54,500 down. But it did need to be fixed. The law, like many other of our laws, is -- it's not perfect. 125 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,533 But it was and could have been reworked or implemented differently to reflect 126 00:10:01,533 --> 00:10:06,533 today's needs and address the inequities and the frustration that some of the AAPI community felt, 127 00:10:08,133 --> 00:10:11,933 and also in the case of the students that you interviewed here. 128 00:10:13,933 --> 00:10:17,466 The nation really did a disservice to so many minority students by taking a sledgehammer, 129 00:10:19,066 --> 00:10:22,066 basically, to decades of progress. We should have worked together to 130 00:10:22,066 --> 00:10:27,066 find a solution that allowed all historically underrepresented minority students to thrive, 131 00:10:28,233 --> 00:10:30,533 which includes Asian American students. 132 00:10:30,533 --> 00:10:35,533 And, also, now is the time where we're looking to do and see what's next. Now's 133 00:10:37,533 --> 00:10:41,000 the time to seize on the opportunity to move forward and really work together, 134 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,533 not just within the AAPI community, but also all affected communities. 135 00:10:45,533 --> 00:10:48,566 AMNA NAWAZ: That is Susana Liu-Hedberg and Janelle Wong. 136 00:10:48,566 --> 00:10:50,433 Thank you both for joining us and bringing 137 00:10:50,433 --> 00:10:53,433 your experience to this very complicated issue. Thank you.