JUDY WOODRUFF: All over the
world today, men and women
compete in high-level athletics.

But to keep competition
fair, they almost always
compete separately.

The world's sporting
organizations argue there's
a clear, distinguishable
line between the

sexes.

But as, William Brangham
reports, the case of one female
South African runner, Olympic

gold medalist Caster Semenya,
has blurred that line.

For more on Semenya's case, and
what it means for the sporting
world, I'm joined now by

Madeleine Pape.

She's a former track
and field Olympian.

She represented her home
country of Australia in the 2008
Beijing Olympics and in other

international competitions.

She's now working on a sociology
Ph.D. focusing on gender at
the University of Wisconsin,

Madison.

And Christine Brennan,
she's a sports columnist
for USA Today and a regular
guest on the "NewsHour."

Thank you both very
much for being here.

Madeleine, to you first.

You have raced against Ms.
Semenya, and you have a sense of
how fast and what a remarkable

athlete she is.

What did you make of this
ruling saying, if she wants to
keep racing, she has to start

taking drugs to
suppress testosterone?

MADELEINE PAPE, Former
Track and Field Olympian:
I was disappointed with
the decision by the

Court of Arbitration for Sport.

I think Caster Semenya has
really been on a journey over
the past 10 years, since we

first saw her compete on
the international level.

And the sport as well
has been on a journey.

And I think, contrary to how
this is being represented
sometimes, there actually is a

great diversity of
opinion about this topic.

And a lot of people have
changed their views about
sex and testosterone.

So I was really hoping that
Semenya would be the athlete
that put an end to these kinds

of practices in sport and
that the Court of Arbitration
for Sport would make a ruling

that reflected the journey
that we have been on
as a sport since 2009.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: What is
that you think that the
court specifically got wrong?

MADELEINE PAPE: Look, it's
difficult to say because we
don't have a full account of how

the court made its decision.

I think some -- there are
some questions, though,
that remain unanswered.

For example, why is it that
these rules apply to the 1,500
meters and the mile, even though

the court acknowledged
that the IAAF doesn't
actually have scientific
evidence to illustrate

a relationship between
testosterone and athletic
ability in those events.

So I think that has
gone unanswered.

And I also think there has --
there has to be more discussion
of the scientific debates

that continue to surround
this idea that testosterone
has a clear relationship
to athletic ability.

That scientific discussion
is ongoing, as we have
seen in the last few days.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Christine,
the court clearly ruled
that the science is clear.

I mean, contrary to what
Madeleine is saying, they argue
that the science does show that

higher levels of testosterone
confers an advantage.

But the court basically
acknowledged that, yes,
we are discriminating
against this woman,

but we're doing it to protect
the integrity of women's
athletics more broadly.

What do you make of that?

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, USA
Today: Right, William.

Well, first of all, we cannot
say it enough how terribly
Caster Semenya has been treated,

especially by the IAAF.

This is a woman who
is so important in her
country, obviously a
woman of color in South

Africa.

We know our history there.

And for her to be dragged
through 10 years, basically, of
uncertainty, when she was born

this way, is astounding.

And the lack of leadership
there is remarkable.

Having said that, this is a
conversation that I think we're
going to be having for the next

30, 40, 50 years, a conversation
about exactly, well, one, the
level of testosterone that

we would like to see
allowed in women's and
girls sports, whether --
of course, with Caster

Semenya, she was born this way.

But it easily morphs into...

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right.

It's crucial to
keep saying this.

CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Absolutely.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That
she did nothing to change.

This is how she is.

CHRISTINE BRENNAN: And
I have written columns
defending her, absolutely.

But the important point is,
there is a larger conversation.

And this may well be -- as a
journalist covering the Olympics
now for 30-some years, this may

well be, William, a story
that then jumps into the world
of transgender participation

in sport.

This is a topic and a
conversation that's going to
be discussed at dinner tables.

It's going to be discussed
in supermarkets, what we want
in terms of girls and women's

sports.

We have made the classification
that girls and women's sports
are different than boys

and men's sports.

We have made that
classification.

So, now, how do we then pursue
these issues, especially at a
time where we're looking at

the science?

And I think that's why
this ruling was important.

And discrimination,
again, against Caster
Semenya is so unfortunate.

There is a larger pool here
to also look at and to wonder
about discrimination against

those athletes.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Madeleine,
as Christine is saying, we
did once upon a time decide

that boys athletics and women's
athletics, boys and girls
athletics, should be separate,

because there is a desire to
have a more level playing field.

Caster Semenya's case
seems to force us to
really reconsider that.

MADELEINE PAPE:
Yes, that's right.

And I think -- I appreciated
Christine saying that.

I mean, I think one of Semenya's
legacies is going to be
that she has led us towards

this -- this conversation and
this reflection on how we feel
about sex and testosterone

in elite sport.

I think, in response to
Christine's -- Christine's
answer earlier, it's
important to be clear

that transgender women and
women with high testosterone
are subject to distinct sets

of regulations, and changes in
one set of regulations doesn't
necessarily have implications

for the other.

There's no doubt that we have
to have a larger conversation
as a sport about the place and

the rights of transgender women,
who haven't been given a fair
hearing in terms of it being

a compassionate and
informed conversation.

But I do think that women with
high testosterone need to be
judged on their own terms, and

that people shouldn't be
bringing their feelings
about transgender women
into this conversation.

And I think we can all agree
that we have women's sport
as our top priority, and we

want what's best
for women's sport.

We may disagree on how to
get there, but we all want
what's best for women's sport.

I take my lead on this
issue from the Women's
Sports Foundation here
in the United States

and advocates like Billie Jean
King, who have come out in
support of Caster Semenya, and

who are encouraging us
to see her contributions
to women's sport as a
positive and something

that we should celebrate.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Christine, in
elite sports elsewhere -- I'm
thinking of Usain Bolt, LeBron

James, Simone Biles, Michael
Phelps, those people are, of
course, extraordinary athletes,

but they are also near
physically perfect for
their particular sports.

We don't look at their
abilities and think of it
as an unfair advantage.

We just think of it as part
and parcel of their greatness.

Why do you think we think of
Caster's case differently?

CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Yes.

We haven't made a classification
for many of those categories
that you just described.

For example, Michael
Phelps' feet, like flippers,
certainly helped him win
all those gold medals.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And
his enormous wingspan.

CHRISTINE BRENNAN:
Exactly, and his torso.

So, if we had a classification
for foot size - - and I'm not
-- you -- I think you know

me well.

As a journalist, I take
this very seriously.

So I'm not making light of this.

But, if we did, then Michael
Phelps would be in a different
category than some of the

other swimmers.

But we don't do that.

We have decided -- society has
decided, our culture, William,
has decided to make categories

for men's and women's
sports and separate them.

We basically have segregation.

Now, by the way,
transgender rights are
hugely important to me.

And I think it must be said,
because any time you delve into
what, as I said, is a complex

conversation -- this has been
going on for a long, long
time -- you want to make this

crystal clear.

I, of course, support
transgender rights.

I absolutely do.

The question is, what
are we going to -- what
do we want to see out of
women and girls sports?

And is there a limit on
testosterone involving
participating in women's
and girls sports?

And we have seen, for
example, with the NCAA
and the International
Olympic Committee and

others, they say, if you
are going as a transgender
person -- and, again,
Caster Semenya is not

transgender -- but to take the
conversation further, if you
are transgender, and you are

a woman, then you need to take
some hormones, so that your
testosterone level is lower.

We have seen leagues say this.

Maybe there -- this will go to
the Supreme Court at some point.

And, as a journalist, I plan
to cover every second of this.

But I would also say this, that
if you think of Caitlyn Jenner
-- of course, Bruce Jenner

won the Olympic gold medal in
1976, before I started covering
the Olympics, in the decathlon,

and was one of the great heroes
in sport around the world,
cover of "Sports Illustrated,"

et cetera.

If, instead of a few years
ago, Caitlyn Jenner deciding to
transition, if she had done this

back in -- from '76 to '84, and
then become a woman and come
back to the Olympics in '84

in Los Angeles and competed
in the heptathlon, and I dare
say probably won that event.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: As a woman.

CHRISTINE BRENNAN: As a woman.

We would have had a fantastic
and interesting and riveting
conversation about this then.

That's what we're talking about.

And that is what,
as a journalist, I
see moving forward.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: It is such
a complicated question, with
obviously no easy answers here.

Christine Brennan, Madeleine
Pape, thank you both
very much for being here.

CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Thank you.