WEBVTT 00:01.933 --> 00:05.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: All over the world today, men and women compete in high-level athletics. 00:05.100 --> 00:09.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But to keep competition fair, they almost always compete separately. 00:09.466 --> 00:14.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% The world's sporting organizations argue there's a clear, distinguishable line between the 00:14.933 --> 00:16.900 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% sexes. 00:16.900 --> 00:20.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But as, William Brangham reports, the case of one female South African runner, Olympic 00:21.966 --> 00:25.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% gold medalist Caster Semenya, has blurred that line. 00:25.000 --> 00:29.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% For more on Semenya's case, and what it means for the sporting world, I'm joined now by 00:29.200 --> 00:30.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Madeleine Pape. 00:30.466 --> 00:32.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% She's a former track and field Olympian. 00:32.666 --> 00:37.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% She represented her home country of Australia in the 2008 Beijing Olympics and in other 00:38.566 --> 00:40.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% international competitions. 00:40.600 --> 00:44.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% She's now working on a sociology Ph.D. focusing on gender at the University of Wisconsin, 00:45.666 --> 00:48.200 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Madison. 00:48.200 --> 00:51.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And Christine Brennan, she's a sports columnist for USA Today and a regular guest on the "NewsHour." 00:52.866 --> 00:54.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Thank you both very much for being here. 00:54.900 --> 00:57.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Madeleine, to you first. 00:57.266 --> 01:02.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You have raced against Ms. Semenya, and you have a sense of how fast and what a remarkable 01:02.966 --> 01:05.033 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% athlete she is. 01:05.033 --> 01:09.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What did you make of this ruling saying, if she wants to keep racing, she has to start 01:10.866 --> 01:13.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% taking drugs to suppress testosterone? 01:13.400 --> 01:15.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% MADELEINE PAPE, Former Track and Field Olympian: I was disappointed with the decision by the 01:15.300 --> 01:17.333 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Court of Arbitration for Sport. 01:17.333 --> 01:21.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think Caster Semenya has really been on a journey over the past 10 years, since we 01:21.733 --> 01:25.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% first saw her compete on the international level. 01:25.400 --> 01:29.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the sport as well has been on a journey. 01:29.100 --> 01:33.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think, contrary to how this is being represented sometimes, there actually is a 01:33.800 --> 01:36.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% great diversity of opinion about this topic. 01:36.100 --> 01:41.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And a lot of people have changed their views about sex and testosterone. 01:43.133 --> 01:47.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So I was really hoping that Semenya would be the athlete that put an end to these kinds 01:47.700 --> 01:51.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of practices in sport and that the Court of Arbitration for Sport would make a ruling 01:51.166 --> 01:54.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that reflected the journey that we have been on as a sport since 2009. 01:54.766 --> 01:58.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: What is that you think that the court specifically got wrong? 01:58.700 --> 02:03.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MADELEINE PAPE: Look, it's difficult to say because we don't have a full account of how 02:04.533 --> 02:06.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the court made its decision. 02:06.600 --> 02:09.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think some -- there are some questions, though, that remain unanswered. 02:09.500 --> 02:14.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% For example, why is it that these rules apply to the 1,500 meters and the mile, even though 02:16.533 --> 02:20.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the court acknowledged that the IAAF doesn't actually have scientific evidence to illustrate 02:20.033 --> 02:24.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a relationship between testosterone and athletic ability in those events. 02:24.533 --> 02:28.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So I think that has gone unanswered. 02:28.166 --> 02:33.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I also think there has -- there has to be more discussion of the scientific debates 02:35.600 --> 02:38.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that continue to surround this idea that testosterone has a clear relationship to athletic ability. 02:40.633 --> 02:43.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That scientific discussion is ongoing, as we have seen in the last few days. 02:43.533 --> 02:48.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Christine, the court clearly ruled that the science is clear. 02:48.133 --> 02:52.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I mean, contrary to what Madeleine is saying, they argue that the science does show that 02:52.433 --> 02:55.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% higher levels of testosterone confers an advantage. 02:55.566 --> 03:00.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But the court basically acknowledged that, yes, we are discriminating against this woman, 03:02.433 --> 03:05.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but we're doing it to protect the integrity of women's athletics more broadly. 03:05.700 --> 03:06.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% What do you make of that? 03:06.966 --> 03:08.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% CHRISTINE BRENNAN, USA Today: Right, William. 03:08.966 --> 03:11.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Well, first of all, we cannot say it enough how terribly Caster Semenya has been treated, 03:11.933 --> 03:14.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% especially by the IAAF. 03:14.200 --> 03:18.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% This is a woman who is so important in her country, obviously a woman of color in South 03:18.266 --> 03:19.266 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Africa. 03:19.266 --> 03:21.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We know our history there. 03:21.266 --> 03:25.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And for her to be dragged through 10 years, basically, of uncertainty, when she was born 03:25.800 --> 03:28.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% this way, is astounding. 03:28.400 --> 03:30.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the lack of leadership there is remarkable. 03:30.866 --> 03:34.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Having said that, this is a conversation that I think we're going to be having for the next 03:34.233 --> 03:39.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% 30, 40, 50 years, a conversation about exactly, well, one, the level of testosterone that 03:41.233 --> 03:45.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% we would like to see allowed in women's and girls sports, whether -- of course, with Caster 03:46.533 --> 03:48.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Semenya, she was born this way. 03:48.133 --> 03:49.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But it easily morphs into... 03:49.466 --> 03:50.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right. 03:50.700 --> 03:51.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's crucial to keep saying this. 03:51.633 --> 03:53.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Absolutely. 03:53.133 --> 03:53.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That she did nothing to change. 03:53.966 --> 03:56.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is how she is. 03:56.000 --> 03:57.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% CHRISTINE BRENNAN: And I have written columns defending her, absolutely. 03:57.500 --> 03:59.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But the important point is, there is a larger conversation. 03:59.933 --> 04:04.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And this may well be -- as a journalist covering the Olympics now for 30-some years, this may 04:06.866 --> 04:10.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% well be, William, a story that then jumps into the world of transgender participation 04:11.066 --> 04:13.033 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in sport. 04:13.033 --> 04:15.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% This is a topic and a conversation that's going to be discussed at dinner tables. 04:15.100 --> 04:19.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It's going to be discussed in supermarkets, what we want in terms of girls and women's 04:19.100 --> 04:21.066 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% sports. 04:21.066 --> 04:23.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We have made the classification that girls and women's sports are different than boys 04:23.533 --> 04:24.766 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and men's sports. 04:24.766 --> 04:26.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We have made that classification. 04:26.866 --> 04:30.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, now, how do we then pursue these issues, especially at a time where we're looking at 04:32.333 --> 04:33.800 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% the science? 04:33.800 --> 04:35.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I think that's why this ruling was important. 04:35.766 --> 04:39.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And discrimination, again, against Caster Semenya is so unfortunate. 04:39.966 --> 04:44.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% There is a larger pool here to also look at and to wonder about discrimination against 04:45.566 --> 04:47.666 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% those athletes. 04:47.666 --> 04:51.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Madeleine, as Christine is saying, we did once upon a time decide 04:53.300 --> 04:57.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that boys athletics and women's athletics, boys and girls athletics, should be separate, 04:57.000 --> 05:02.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because there is a desire to have a more level playing field. 05:03.566 --> 05:06.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Caster Semenya's case seems to force us to really reconsider that. 05:06.066 --> 05:07.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% MADELEINE PAPE: Yes, that's right. 05:07.966 --> 05:10.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I think -- I appreciated Christine saying that. 05:10.500 --> 05:15.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I mean, I think one of Semenya's legacies is going to be that she has led us towards 05:17.500 --> 05:20.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this -- this conversation and this reflection on how we feel about sex and testosterone 05:21.700 --> 05:24.233 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in elite sport. 05:24.233 --> 05:28.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I think, in response to Christine's -- Christine's answer earlier, it's important to be clear 05:31.033 --> 05:36.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that transgender women and women with high testosterone are subject to distinct sets 05:38.100 --> 05:41.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of regulations, and changes in one set of regulations doesn't necessarily have implications 05:42.500 --> 05:44.633 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% for the other. 05:44.633 --> 05:49.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% There's no doubt that we have to have a larger conversation as a sport about the place and 05:51.300 --> 05:54.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the rights of transgender women, who haven't been given a fair hearing in terms of it being 05:54.033 --> 05:56.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a compassionate and informed conversation. 05:56.666 --> 06:01.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But I do think that women with high testosterone need to be judged on their own terms, and 06:01.600 --> 06:06.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that people shouldn't be bringing their feelings about transgender women into this conversation. 06:08.633 --> 06:11.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think we can all agree that we have women's sport as our top priority, and we 06:13.000 --> 06:15.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% want what's best for women's sport. 06:15.000 --> 06:18.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We may disagree on how to get there, but we all want what's best for women's sport. 06:18.466 --> 06:23.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I take my lead on this issue from the Women's Sports Foundation here in the United States 06:25.466 --> 06:28.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and advocates like Billie Jean King, who have come out in support of Caster Semenya, and 06:30.600 --> 06:33.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% who are encouraging us to see her contributions to women's sport as a positive and something 06:34.666 --> 06:36.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that we should celebrate. 06:36.733 --> 06:40.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Christine, in elite sports elsewhere -- I'm thinking of Usain Bolt, LeBron 06:42.666 --> 06:46.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% James, Simone Biles, Michael Phelps, those people are, of course, extraordinary athletes, 06:48.300 --> 06:51.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% but they are also near physically perfect for their particular sports. 06:51.266 --> 06:54.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We don't look at their abilities and think of it as an unfair advantage. 06:54.633 --> 06:57.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We just think of it as part and parcel of their greatness. 06:57.733 --> 07:01.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Why do you think we think of Caster's case differently? 07:01.566 --> 07:03.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Yes. 07:03.500 --> 07:06.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We haven't made a classification for many of those categories that you just described. 07:06.566 --> 07:11.566 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% For example, Michael Phelps' feet, like flippers, certainly helped him win all those gold medals. 07:12.766 --> 07:13.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And his enormous wingspan. 07:13.933 --> 07:16.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Exactly, and his torso. 07:16.000 --> 07:19.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, if we had a classification for foot size - - and I'm not -- you -- I think you know 07:20.000 --> 07:21.200 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% me well. 07:21.200 --> 07:22.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% As a journalist, I take this very seriously. 07:22.133 --> 07:24.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So I'm not making light of this. 07:24.166 --> 07:27.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But, if we did, then Michael Phelps would be in a different category than some of the 07:27.633 --> 07:28.966 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% other swimmers. 07:28.966 --> 07:31.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% But we don't do that. 07:31.100 --> 07:35.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We have decided -- society has decided, our culture, William, has decided to make categories 07:35.033 --> 07:37.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for men's and women's sports and separate them. 07:37.500 --> 07:39.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We basically have segregation. 07:39.800 --> 07:43.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Now, by the way, transgender rights are hugely important to me. 07:43.500 --> 07:47.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think it must be said, because any time you delve into what, as I said, is a complex 07:47.133 --> 07:50.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% conversation -- this has been going on for a long, long time -- you want to make this 07:50.033 --> 07:51.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% crystal clear. 07:51.266 --> 07:53.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I, of course, support transgender rights. 07:53.466 --> 07:55.633 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I absolutely do. 07:55.633 --> 08:00.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% The question is, what are we going to -- what do we want to see out of women and girls sports? 08:02.100 --> 08:05.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And is there a limit on testosterone involving participating in women's and girls sports? 08:07.600 --> 08:10.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And we have seen, for example, with the NCAA and the International Olympic Committee and 08:10.400 --> 08:15.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% others, they say, if you are going as a transgender person -- and, again, Caster Semenya is not 08:17.400 --> 08:21.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% transgender -- but to take the conversation further, if you are transgender, and you are 08:23.933 --> 08:27.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a woman, then you need to take some hormones, so that your testosterone level is lower. 08:29.100 --> 08:30.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We have seen leagues say this. 08:30.833 --> 08:32.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Maybe there -- this will go to the Supreme Court at some point. 08:32.933 --> 08:36.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And, as a journalist, I plan to cover every second of this. 08:36.266 --> 08:41.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But I would also say this, that if you think of Caitlyn Jenner -- of course, Bruce Jenner 08:43.300 --> 08:46.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% won the Olympic gold medal in 1976, before I started covering the Olympics, in the decathlon, 08:46.900 --> 08:50.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and was one of the great heroes in sport around the world, cover of "Sports Illustrated," 08:50.833 --> 08:52.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% et cetera. 08:52.866 --> 08:56.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% If, instead of a few years ago, Caitlyn Jenner deciding to transition, if she had done this 08:56.533 --> 09:01.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% back in -- from '76 to '84, and then become a woman and come back to the Olympics in '84 09:03.533 --> 09:06.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in Los Angeles and competed in the heptathlon, and I dare say probably won that event. 09:06.600 --> 09:07.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: As a woman. 09:07.600 --> 09:09.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% CHRISTINE BRENNAN: As a woman. 09:09.700 --> 09:13.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We would have had a fantastic and interesting and riveting conversation about this then. 09:14.466 --> 09:16.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That's what we're talking about. 09:16.133 --> 09:18.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And that is what, as a journalist, I see moving forward. 09:18.133 --> 09:22.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: It is such a complicated question, with obviously no easy answers here. 09:22.500 --> 09:25.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Christine Brennan, Madeleine Pape, thank you both very much for being here. 09:25.166 --> 09:25.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Thank you.