1 00:00:01,933 --> 00:00:05,100 JUDY WOODRUFF: All over the world today, men and women compete in high-level athletics. 2 00:00:05,100 --> 00:00:09,466 But to keep competition fair, they almost always compete separately. 3 00:00:09,466 --> 00:00:14,466 The world's sporting organizations argue there's a clear, distinguishable line between the 4 00:00:14,933 --> 00:00:16,900 sexes. 5 00:00:16,900 --> 00:00:20,633 But as, William Brangham reports, the case of one female South African runner, Olympic 6 00:00:21,966 --> 00:00:25,000 gold medalist Caster Semenya, has blurred that line. 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,200 For more on Semenya's case, and what it means for the sporting world, I'm joined now by 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:30,466 Madeleine Pape. 9 00:00:30,466 --> 00:00:32,666 She's a former track and field Olympian. 10 00:00:32,666 --> 00:00:37,666 She represented her home country of Australia in the 2008 Beijing Olympics and in other 11 00:00:38,566 --> 00:00:40,600 international competitions. 12 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,700 She's now working on a sociology Ph.D. focusing on gender at the University of Wisconsin, 13 00:00:45,666 --> 00:00:48,200 Madison. 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,633 And Christine Brennan, she's a sports columnist for USA Today and a regular guest on the "NewsHour." 15 00:00:52,866 --> 00:00:54,900 Thank you both very much for being here. 16 00:00:54,900 --> 00:00:57,266 Madeleine, to you first. 17 00:00:57,266 --> 00:01:02,233 You have raced against Ms. Semenya, and you have a sense of how fast and what a remarkable 18 00:01:02,966 --> 00:01:05,033 athlete she is. 19 00:01:05,033 --> 00:01:09,766 What did you make of this ruling saying, if she wants to keep racing, she has to start 20 00:01:10,866 --> 00:01:13,400 taking drugs to suppress testosterone? 21 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,300 MADELEINE PAPE, Former Track and Field Olympian: I was disappointed with the decision by the 22 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:17,333 Court of Arbitration for Sport. 23 00:01:17,333 --> 00:01:21,733 I think Caster Semenya has really been on a journey over the past 10 years, since we 24 00:01:21,733 --> 00:01:25,400 first saw her compete on the international level. 25 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,100 And the sport as well has been on a journey. 26 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:33,800 And I think, contrary to how this is being represented sometimes, there actually is a 27 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,100 great diversity of opinion about this topic. 28 00:01:36,100 --> 00:01:41,100 And a lot of people have changed their views about sex and testosterone. 29 00:01:43,133 --> 00:01:47,700 So I was really hoping that Semenya would be the athlete that put an end to these kinds 30 00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:51,166 of practices in sport and that the Court of Arbitration for Sport would make a ruling 31 00:01:51,166 --> 00:01:54,766 that reflected the journey that we have been on as a sport since 2009. 32 00:01:54,766 --> 00:01:58,700 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: What is that you think that the court specifically got wrong? 33 00:01:58,700 --> 00:02:03,666 MADELEINE PAPE: Look, it's difficult to say because we don't have a full account of how 34 00:02:04,533 --> 00:02:06,600 the court made its decision. 35 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,500 I think some -- there are some questions, though, that remain unanswered. 36 00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:14,500 For example, why is it that these rules apply to the 1,500 meters and the mile, even though 37 00:02:16,533 --> 00:02:20,033 the court acknowledged that the IAAF doesn't actually have scientific evidence to illustrate 38 00:02:20,033 --> 00:02:24,533 a relationship between testosterone and athletic ability in those events. 39 00:02:24,533 --> 00:02:28,166 So I think that has gone unanswered. 40 00:02:28,166 --> 00:02:33,166 And I also think there has -- there has to be more discussion of the scientific debates 41 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,633 that continue to surround this idea that testosterone has a clear relationship to athletic ability. 42 00:02:40,633 --> 00:02:43,533 That scientific discussion is ongoing, as we have seen in the last few days. 43 00:02:43,533 --> 00:02:48,133 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Christine, the court clearly ruled that the science is clear. 44 00:02:48,133 --> 00:02:52,433 I mean, contrary to what Madeleine is saying, they argue that the science does show that 45 00:02:52,433 --> 00:02:55,566 higher levels of testosterone confers an advantage. 46 00:02:55,566 --> 00:03:00,566 But the court basically acknowledged that, yes, we are discriminating against this woman, 47 00:03:02,433 --> 00:03:05,700 but we're doing it to protect the integrity of women's athletics more broadly. 48 00:03:05,700 --> 00:03:06,966 What do you make of that? 49 00:03:06,966 --> 00:03:08,966 CHRISTINE BRENNAN, USA Today: Right, William. 50 00:03:08,966 --> 00:03:11,933 Well, first of all, we cannot say it enough how terribly Caster Semenya has been treated, 51 00:03:11,933 --> 00:03:14,200 especially by the IAAF. 52 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,266 This is a woman who is so important in her country, obviously a woman of color in South 53 00:03:18,266 --> 00:03:19,266 Africa. 54 00:03:19,266 --> 00:03:21,266 We know our history there. 55 00:03:21,266 --> 00:03:25,800 And for her to be dragged through 10 years, basically, of uncertainty, when she was born 56 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,400 this way, is astounding. 57 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,866 And the lack of leadership there is remarkable. 58 00:03:30,866 --> 00:03:34,233 Having said that, this is a conversation that I think we're going to be having for the next 59 00:03:34,233 --> 00:03:39,233 30, 40, 50 years, a conversation about exactly, well, one, the level of testosterone that 60 00:03:41,233 --> 00:03:45,666 we would like to see allowed in women's and girls sports, whether -- of course, with Caster 61 00:03:46,533 --> 00:03:48,133 Semenya, she was born this way. 62 00:03:48,133 --> 00:03:49,466 But it easily morphs into... 63 00:03:49,466 --> 00:03:50,700 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right. 64 00:03:50,700 --> 00:03:51,633 It's crucial to keep saying this. 65 00:03:51,633 --> 00:03:53,133 CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Absolutely. 66 00:03:53,133 --> 00:03:53,966 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That she did nothing to change. 67 00:03:53,966 --> 00:03:56,000 This is how she is. 68 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:57,500 CHRISTINE BRENNAN: And I have written columns defending her, absolutely. 69 00:03:57,500 --> 00:03:59,933 But the important point is, there is a larger conversation. 70 00:03:59,933 --> 00:04:04,900 And this may well be -- as a journalist covering the Olympics now for 30-some years, this may 71 00:04:06,866 --> 00:04:10,233 well be, William, a story that then jumps into the world of transgender participation 72 00:04:11,066 --> 00:04:13,033 in sport. 73 00:04:13,033 --> 00:04:15,100 This is a topic and a conversation that's going to be discussed at dinner tables. 74 00:04:15,100 --> 00:04:19,100 It's going to be discussed in supermarkets, what we want in terms of girls and women's 75 00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:21,066 sports. 76 00:04:21,066 --> 00:04:23,533 We have made the classification that girls and women's sports are different than boys 77 00:04:23,533 --> 00:04:24,766 and men's sports. 78 00:04:24,766 --> 00:04:26,866 We have made that classification. 79 00:04:26,866 --> 00:04:30,866 So, now, how do we then pursue these issues, especially at a time where we're looking at 80 00:04:32,333 --> 00:04:33,800 the science? 81 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:35,766 And I think that's why this ruling was important. 82 00:04:35,766 --> 00:04:39,966 And discrimination, again, against Caster Semenya is so unfortunate. 83 00:04:39,966 --> 00:04:44,966 There is a larger pool here to also look at and to wonder about discrimination against 84 00:04:45,566 --> 00:04:47,666 those athletes. 85 00:04:47,666 --> 00:04:51,366 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Madeleine, as Christine is saying, we did once upon a time decide 86 00:04:53,300 --> 00:04:57,000 that boys athletics and women's athletics, boys and girls athletics, should be separate, 87 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:02,000 because there is a desire to have a more level playing field. 88 00:05:03,566 --> 00:05:06,066 Caster Semenya's case seems to force us to really reconsider that. 89 00:05:06,066 --> 00:05:07,966 MADELEINE PAPE: Yes, that's right. 90 00:05:07,966 --> 00:05:10,500 And I think -- I appreciated Christine saying that. 91 00:05:10,500 --> 00:05:15,500 I mean, I think one of Semenya's legacies is going to be that she has led us towards 92 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:20,566 this -- this conversation and this reflection on how we feel about sex and testosterone 93 00:05:21,700 --> 00:05:24,233 in elite sport. 94 00:05:24,233 --> 00:05:28,433 I think, in response to Christine's -- Christine's answer earlier, it's important to be clear 95 00:05:31,033 --> 00:05:36,033 that transgender women and women with high testosterone are subject to distinct sets 96 00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:41,900 of regulations, and changes in one set of regulations doesn't necessarily have implications 97 00:05:42,500 --> 00:05:44,633 for the other. 98 00:05:44,633 --> 00:05:49,333 There's no doubt that we have to have a larger conversation as a sport about the place and 99 00:05:51,300 --> 00:05:54,033 the rights of transgender women, who haven't been given a fair hearing in terms of it being 100 00:05:54,033 --> 00:05:56,666 a compassionate and informed conversation. 101 00:05:56,666 --> 00:06:01,600 But I do think that women with high testosterone need to be judged on their own terms, and 102 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,600 that people shouldn't be bringing their feelings about transgender women into this conversation. 103 00:06:08,633 --> 00:06:11,833 And I think we can all agree that we have women's sport as our top priority, and we 104 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,000 want what's best for women's sport. 105 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,466 We may disagree on how to get there, but we all want what's best for women's sport. 106 00:06:18,466 --> 00:06:23,466 I take my lead on this issue from the Women's Sports Foundation here in the United States 107 00:06:25,466 --> 00:06:28,566 and advocates like Billie Jean King, who have come out in support of Caster Semenya, and 108 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,800 who are encouraging us to see her contributions to women's sport as a positive and something 109 00:06:34,666 --> 00:06:36,733 that we should celebrate. 110 00:06:36,733 --> 00:06:40,733 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Christine, in elite sports elsewhere -- I'm thinking of Usain Bolt, LeBron 111 00:06:42,666 --> 00:06:46,700 James, Simone Biles, Michael Phelps, those people are, of course, extraordinary athletes, 112 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:51,266 but they are also near physically perfect for their particular sports. 113 00:06:51,266 --> 00:06:54,633 We don't look at their abilities and think of it as an unfair advantage. 114 00:06:54,633 --> 00:06:57,733 We just think of it as part and parcel of their greatness. 115 00:06:57,733 --> 00:07:01,566 Why do you think we think of Caster's case differently? 116 00:07:01,566 --> 00:07:03,500 CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Yes. 117 00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:06,566 We haven't made a classification for many of those categories that you just described. 118 00:07:06,566 --> 00:07:11,566 For example, Michael Phelps' feet, like flippers, certainly helped him win all those gold medals. 119 00:07:12,766 --> 00:07:13,933 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And his enormous wingspan. 120 00:07:13,933 --> 00:07:16,000 CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Exactly, and his torso. 121 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,333 So, if we had a classification for foot size - - and I'm not -- you -- I think you know 122 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,200 me well. 123 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:22,133 As a journalist, I take this very seriously. 124 00:07:22,133 --> 00:07:24,166 So I'm not making light of this. 125 00:07:24,166 --> 00:07:27,633 But, if we did, then Michael Phelps would be in a different category than some of the 126 00:07:27,633 --> 00:07:28,966 other swimmers. 127 00:07:28,966 --> 00:07:31,100 But we don't do that. 128 00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:35,033 We have decided -- society has decided, our culture, William, has decided to make categories 129 00:07:35,033 --> 00:07:37,500 for men's and women's sports and separate them. 130 00:07:37,500 --> 00:07:39,800 We basically have segregation. 131 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,500 Now, by the way, transgender rights are hugely important to me. 132 00:07:43,500 --> 00:07:47,133 And I think it must be said, because any time you delve into what, as I said, is a complex 133 00:07:47,133 --> 00:07:50,033 conversation -- this has been going on for a long, long time -- you want to make this 134 00:07:50,033 --> 00:07:51,266 crystal clear. 135 00:07:51,266 --> 00:07:53,466 I, of course, support transgender rights. 136 00:07:53,466 --> 00:07:55,633 I absolutely do. 137 00:07:55,633 --> 00:08:00,100 The question is, what are we going to -- what do we want to see out of women and girls sports? 138 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:05,466 And is there a limit on testosterone involving participating in women's and girls sports? 139 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,400 And we have seen, for example, with the NCAA and the International Olympic Committee and 140 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:15,400 others, they say, if you are going as a transgender person -- and, again, Caster Semenya is not 141 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,933 transgender -- but to take the conversation further, if you are transgender, and you are 142 00:08:23,933 --> 00:08:27,333 a woman, then you need to take some hormones, so that your testosterone level is lower. 143 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:30,833 We have seen leagues say this. 144 00:08:30,833 --> 00:08:32,933 Maybe there -- this will go to the Supreme Court at some point. 145 00:08:32,933 --> 00:08:36,266 And, as a journalist, I plan to cover every second of this. 146 00:08:36,266 --> 00:08:41,266 But I would also say this, that if you think of Caitlyn Jenner -- of course, Bruce Jenner 147 00:08:43,300 --> 00:08:46,900 won the Olympic gold medal in 1976, before I started covering the Olympics, in the decathlon, 148 00:08:46,900 --> 00:08:50,833 and was one of the great heroes in sport around the world, cover of "Sports Illustrated," 149 00:08:50,833 --> 00:08:52,866 et cetera. 150 00:08:52,866 --> 00:08:56,533 If, instead of a few years ago, Caitlyn Jenner deciding to transition, if she had done this 151 00:08:56,533 --> 00:09:01,533 back in -- from '76 to '84, and then become a woman and come back to the Olympics in '84 152 00:09:03,533 --> 00:09:06,600 in Los Angeles and competed in the heptathlon, and I dare say probably won that event. 153 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:07,600 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: As a woman. 154 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,700 CHRISTINE BRENNAN: As a woman. 155 00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:13,600 We would have had a fantastic and interesting and riveting conversation about this then. 156 00:09:14,466 --> 00:09:16,133 That's what we're talking about. 157 00:09:16,133 --> 00:09:18,133 And that is what, as a journalist, I see moving forward. 158 00:09:18,133 --> 00:09:22,500 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: It is such a complicated question, with obviously no easy answers here. 159 00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:25,166 Christine Brennan, Madeleine Pape, thank you both very much for being here. 160 00:09:25,166 --> 00:09:25,300 CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Thank you.