JUDY WOODRUFF: We return to
the shakeup at the top of the
Trump administration with the

firing of Secretary of State Rex
Tillerson and the appointment
of the current director

of the CIA, Mike Pompeo,
to replace him as
America's top diplomat.

We get three views now..

Nicholas Burns served 27 years
in government, much of it
at the Department of State.

He was U.S. ambassador
to NATO and to Greece.

He's now at Harvard University.

David Ignatius is a
foreign policy columnist
at The Washington Post.

And David Shedd served as
acting director of the Defense
Intelligence Agency during

a 33-year government career.

He is now a distinguished fellow
at the Heritage Foundation,
a Washington think tank.

And, gentlemen, we welcome
all three of you here today.

David Ignatius, I'm
going to start with you.

Your reporting, what does
it tell you about why the
president made this decision?

DAVID IGNATIUS, Columnist,
The Washington Post: I
think president Trump
has been uncomfortable

with Secretary Tillerson
for a year, really since
soon after he took the job.

Last November, Trump wanted
to make a change, asked Mike
Pompeo if he was ready to go to

State.

Pompeo said yes.

The president held off, I
think was counseled by Chief of
Staff Kelly and others to wait

on that move.

He did.

But his discomfort continued.

Watching the public
humiliation of Rex Tillerson
has been painful, I think,
for the whole country.

It was visible today in
the pain of the resignation
statement that Tillerson made.

I think Trump finally decided
that the time had come to make
a change as he headed into

the most important diplomatic
encounter of his presidency
probably, the face-to-face

diplomacy with Kim
Jong-un and North Korea.

He felt he wanted to have
his own person at State,
his own team behind him.

So I think the moment had come.

But the discomfort has been
there for many, many months.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Nicholas Burns,
how would you describe the State
Department under Rex Tillerson?

NICHOLAS BURNS, Former U.S.
Undersecretary of State for
Political Affairs: Demoralized,

I think the greatest crisis
we have had in 40 or 50 years,
with 30 percent budget cuts

by the Trump administration
and Secretary Tillerson, the
firing of some of our best

senior officers early in the
administration, an exodus of
very good officers at all levels

really, because no senior
diplomats were appointed
to senior positions
around President Trump

in the White House, the majority
of our ambassadorships unfilled.

No ambassador to Seoul in
the middle of this crisis, no
assistant secretary of state for

East Asia.

So, diplomatic malpractice
by Secretary Tillerson,
I think that's part
of his legacy, that he

mismanaged the State
Department, our civil and
career foreign service.

And this is the great, important
arm of our diplomacy, and
yet these people feel that

they have been excluded.

I would say I think that with
-- secretary designate-Pompeo
has an opportunity to rebuild

the department, if he can
convince President Trump and the
OMB director to put the money

forward.

He has an opportunity to
win back people, but that's
a tall order at this stage.

JUDY WOODRUFF: David Shedd,
as somebody who has watched
American foreign policy for a

long time, how do you
see the record of Rex
Tillerson as secretary?

DAVID SHEDD, Former
Acting Director, Defense
Intelligence Agency: I
think that it's spotty,

because of all the reasons that
have already been described
in terms of his inability to

really influence the president.

And I have seen in that
-- in Director Pompeo a
disproportionate amount
of influence, then,

coming from the CIA at a
very time where diplomacy
should actually be what
we would be focusing

on.

JUDY WOODRUFF: What do you mean?

DAVID SHEDD: I mean, the
director and the president, I
think, have hit it off from the

first day, and that relationship
has actually grown deeper.

He gives the
president daily brief.

And I think the issues that
are in alignment with the
president's thinking about Iran,

about North Korea, about
counterterrorism are really
shaped by the CIA far more than

Secretary Tillerson.

JUDY WOODRUFF: David Ignatius,
there were Democrats out
today saying damage has been

done to America's role in the
world, to how America is seen
by other countries under the

Trump-Tillerson 14 months.

Do you agree?

DAVID IGNATIUS: I think
there's no question that
Trump has succeeded in
his often self-proclaimed

goal of disrupting,
destabilizing the
world and traditional
relationships, assumptions

about American policy.

He's wanted to shake
things up, and he has.

I just was in Europe last
weekend listening to foreign
policy discussion, and it's fair

to say that our
allies are concerned.

They see America heading
in different directions.

They want the United States
to be a strong leader of the
system that the U.S. created

after World War II, and
they're concerned that Trump
is walking away from that.

So, yes, I think
there has been damage.

I think it is important that
any president, President Trump
included, have a secretary

of state who can speak
confidently for the president,
who everybody around the world

knows he speaks on behalf
of the president with
his voice, in effect.

Rex Tillerson couldn't do that.

That was part of his problem.

In that sense, it's better to
have a secretary who can have
a consistent, straightforward

expression of policy, especially
as we head into these very
delicate negotiations with

North Korea.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Nick
Burns, you were saying
a moment ago there's an
opportunity for change

with Mike Pompeo coming in.

How so?

What kind of change
should we look for?

NICHOLAS BURNS: Well,
first, what David Ignatius
just said, I think all
of our recent secretaries

of state would say that they
were successful when they had
the support of the president.

They have to have the support
of the president, or else you
don't have credibility overseas.

So, if Mike Pompeo is seen
as someone in whom President
Trump has great confidence, and

if President Trump can be
consistent in exhibiting
that confidence, and
not undercutting Pompeo,

the way he clearly undercut
Secretary Tillerson, then
I think Secretary Pompeo,
secretary-designate

Pompeo, has a chance to be an
influential secretary of state.

And he will be more effective
around the world if people think
he's speaking for President

Trump.

Two issues, Judy,
to watch out for.

North Korea is by far the most
important issue right now.

Secretary-designate Pompeo,
I hope there will be speedy
confirmation hearings.

We need him out there, I
hope, to go to Pyongyang
before the summit meeting
to see if the North

Koreans are really serious.

I support what President
Trump is trying to
do through diplomacy,
turning toward it, but

you have to have
it well-prepared.

And Pompeo has been a noted
critic of the Iran nuclear deal.

That could spell bad news for
those of us who believe that
we should continue with the

Iran nuclear deal.

That will exacerbate our
problems with Europe and
the rest of the world.

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, David Shedd,
where do you - - how do you
expect to see policy change

or be reconfigured in
some way, whether it's
North Korea, Russia, Iran?

DAVID SHEDD: I think that the
ability of Mike Pompeo both
now in his director of CIA role

and now as secretary of state,
should he be confirmed, will
give the president truth to

power.

And I think he will do
that as a result of the
relationship that he has.

And so on those key
countries that you mentioned
and the topics that are
associated with that,

I think secretary Pompeo
will tell the president
when he's off the mark.

And I think it will be taken
in the kind of relationship
that they have built over the

last 14 months.

JUDY WOODRUFF: What does that
mean, say, for North Korea?

DAVID SHEDD: I think he will
tell the president that,
ultimately, the eye on the
ball is denuclearization

of the Korean Peninsula, and
that nothing short of that
and with all that goes along

with that in terms of having
the capability to attest to
the fact that Kim Jong-un is

denuclearizing the peninsula
will be something that he can
drive President Trump to accept

as an outcome,
and nothing short.

JUDY WOODRUFF: David Ignatius,
what would you add to that
with regard to North Korea?

And what about U.S. relations
with Russia, where the president
seems to resist wanting

to give a full-throated
criticism of Russia's
role and more?

People are calling for him to
condemn Russia's activities,
not just in the election, but

Syria and on and
on down the list.

DAVID IGNATIUS: If Mike Pompeo
is a trusted representative, a
trusted emissary for President

Trump, as was suggested a
moment ago, the idea of going
to Pyongyang to begin to set

the table for the
conversations is crucial.

Pompeo is thoroughly read into
the intelligence about the
Korea situation, obviously.

I just note, with Tillerson on
the way out, the intellectual
architect of this idea of

engagement with North
Korea, establishing the
conditions for negotiations,
was Rex Tillerson's

work.

He took it very seriously.

The president is now benefiting
from the work that was done.

Russia is the biggest unasked
question for the administration.

They haven't really gotten
to the point of thinking
clearly about strategy.

Again, that's something that
Pompeo ought to be able to
drive, because the president

will listen to him.

The president has to look
Russian aggression and mischief
in the eye and begin to deal

with it.

Otherwise, we will just --
you know, as a country, we are
going to have an increasing

problem.

JUDY WOODRUFF: As you
said, irony with regard to
the approach, diplomatic
approach to North

Korea.

But, Nick Burns, how
would you measure a change
in the U.S. approach to
Russia at this point?

NICHOLAS BURNS: Well, there's
an immediate question, Judy,
probably, in the next 24 hours.

The British prime minister
will very likely tell the House
of Commons tomorrow that it

was Russia that engineered
this nerve agent attack
in Salisbury, England.

The United States has to
stand squarely behind Britain.

Britain may go to the NATO
alliance, not to go to war with
Russia, but to exact further

sanctions against Russia.

And the Trump administration,
including the president this
morning, very Delphic about

what they were going to
do in supporting Britain.

I think there is
only one answer.

We have to be behind Britain
and lead the NATO alliance to
deter Putin from any further

such attacks.

There is also, of course,
the invasion of our
election in 2016, the
conspiracy to undermine

our election.

And one would hope that Mike
Pompeo could convince President
Trump, finally, that we

have to be critical of President
Putin and raise our defenses
for the 2018 and 2020 elections.

JUDY WOODRUFF: David Shedd, do
you have a clear expectation
on what we will see on Russia,

with regard to Russia?

DAVID SHEDD: I think that
Mike Pompeo, coming with the
knowledge that he has working at

the CIA about the active
measures that the Russians have
been involved in for decades,

and most recently using the
means of technology, that, in
fact, he will, as Nick suggests,

be able to reach the president
with the high impact of what
those active measures are by

way of intermission
into our political
system and undercutting
democracy full-scale.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Does that
mean taking a tougher line?

DAVID SHEDD: It absolutely
means taking a tougher line.

It's recognizing that, perhaps
in Italy, in their elections,
for example, calling that

out, calling it out in terms
of the constant Russian efforts
to divide and conquer NATO

by way of their
activities, the support
for the Baltic countries.

And you can go on and on.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And just finally
and quickly, David Ignatius,
a word about the incoming

CIA director, or the
designate, Gina Haspel.

What do we know about her?

What should we expect?

DAVID IGNATIUS: Gina Haspel is
a career CIA operations officer.

She's been in some important
and sensitive positions.

One that's going to draw
a lot of controversy is
her role of running a
black site for detention

interrogation in Thailand.

It's really important and
worth noting that she will be,
if confirmed, the first woman

director of the CIA.

That's a big position.

It's a significant glass
ceiling that's been broken.

She will have, I think, strong
support of the work force,
and probably support from

people in the Obama
administration who know
her and worked with her.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And,
Nick Burns, 20 seconds.

NICHOLAS BURNS: A very
significant appointment.

What the president needs is a
tight national security team.

He has a star in Jim Mattis.

If Mattis, Pompeo, Haspel
can work together, then
the president ought
to listen to them,

because the president has not
been an effective president so
far in his presidency with the

rest of the world.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, this was
a day when eyes were riveted on
this president and the changes

he is capable of making.

Nick Burns, David
Ignatius, David Shedd,
gentlemen, thank you all.

NICHOLAS BURNS: Thank you, Judy.

DAVID IGNATIUS: Thank you.

DAVID SHEDD: Thank you.