1 00:00:02,066 --> 00:00:04,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: We return to the shakeup at the top of the Trump administration with the 2 00:00:04,066 --> 00:00:08,933 firing of Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and the appointment of the current director 3 00:00:08,933 --> 00:00:13,933 of the CIA, Mike Pompeo, to replace him as America's top diplomat. 4 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:16,733 We get three views now.. 5 00:00:16,733 --> 00:00:21,433 Nicholas Burns served 27 years in government, much of it at the Department of State. 6 00:00:22,633 --> 00:00:25,500 He was U.S. ambassador to NATO and to Greece. 7 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:27,800 He's now at Harvard University. 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,266 David Ignatius is a foreign policy columnist at The Washington Post. 9 00:00:32,266 --> 00:00:37,266 And David Shedd served as acting director of the Defense Intelligence Agency during 10 00:00:38,166 --> 00:00:40,133 a 33-year government career. 11 00:00:40,133 --> 00:00:44,400 He is now a distinguished fellow at the Heritage Foundation, a Washington think tank. 12 00:00:45,866 --> 00:00:47,800 And, gentlemen, we welcome all three of you here today. 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,833 David Ignatius, I'm going to start with you. 14 00:00:49,833 --> 00:00:53,233 Your reporting, what does it tell you about why the president made this decision? 15 00:00:53,233 --> 00:00:58,000 DAVID IGNATIUS, Columnist, The Washington Post: I think president Trump has been uncomfortable 16 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:03,000 with Secretary Tillerson for a year, really since soon after he took the job. 17 00:01:04,933 --> 00:01:09,433 Last November, Trump wanted to make a change, asked Mike Pompeo if he was ready to go to 18 00:01:10,433 --> 00:01:11,433 State. 19 00:01:11,433 --> 00:01:13,433 Pompeo said yes. 20 00:01:13,433 --> 00:01:17,433 The president held off, I think was counseled by Chief of Staff Kelly and others to wait 21 00:01:19,633 --> 00:01:20,933 on that move. 22 00:01:20,933 --> 00:01:21,933 He did. 23 00:01:21,933 --> 00:01:24,400 But his discomfort continued. 24 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,166 Watching the public humiliation of Rex Tillerson has been painful, I think, for the whole country. 25 00:01:31,100 --> 00:01:34,833 It was visible today in the pain of the resignation statement that Tillerson made. 26 00:01:36,833 --> 00:01:41,233 I think Trump finally decided that the time had come to make a change as he headed into 27 00:01:41,233 --> 00:01:46,233 the most important diplomatic encounter of his presidency probably, the face-to-face 28 00:01:47,366 --> 00:01:49,466 diplomacy with Kim Jong-un and North Korea. 29 00:01:49,466 --> 00:01:54,400 He felt he wanted to have his own person at State, his own team behind him. 30 00:01:55,966 --> 00:01:58,566 So I think the moment had come. 31 00:01:58,566 --> 00:02:00,833 But the discomfort has been there for many, many months. 32 00:02:00,833 --> 00:02:05,800 JUDY WOODRUFF: Nicholas Burns, how would you describe the State Department under Rex Tillerson? 33 00:02:07,733 --> 00:02:09,800 NICHOLAS BURNS, Former U.S. Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs: Demoralized, 34 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,900 I think the greatest crisis we have had in 40 or 50 years, with 30 percent budget cuts 35 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:17,433 by the Trump administration and Secretary Tillerson, the firing of some of our best 36 00:02:17,433 --> 00:02:22,433 senior officers early in the administration, an exodus of very good officers at all levels 37 00:02:24,900 --> 00:02:28,533 really, because no senior diplomats were appointed to senior positions around President Trump 38 00:02:28,533 --> 00:02:32,466 in the White House, the majority of our ambassadorships unfilled. 39 00:02:32,466 --> 00:02:36,900 No ambassador to Seoul in the middle of this crisis, no assistant secretary of state for 40 00:02:36,900 --> 00:02:39,433 East Asia. 41 00:02:39,433 --> 00:02:43,000 So, diplomatic malpractice by Secretary Tillerson, I think that's part of his legacy, that he 42 00:02:44,933 --> 00:02:47,333 mismanaged the State Department, our civil and career foreign service. 43 00:02:47,333 --> 00:02:52,333 And this is the great, important arm of our diplomacy, and yet these people feel that 44 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:55,266 they have been excluded. 45 00:02:55,266 --> 00:02:59,100 I would say I think that with -- secretary designate-Pompeo has an opportunity to rebuild 46 00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:04,033 the department, if he can convince President Trump and the OMB director to put the money 47 00:03:04,033 --> 00:03:06,100 forward. 48 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:08,700 He has an opportunity to win back people, but that's a tall order at this stage. 49 00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:11,766 JUDY WOODRUFF: David Shedd, as somebody who has watched American foreign policy for a 50 00:03:11,766 --> 00:03:16,766 long time, how do you see the record of Rex Tillerson as secretary? 51 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,966 DAVID SHEDD, Former Acting Director, Defense Intelligence Agency: I think that it's spotty, 52 00:03:20,966 --> 00:03:25,966 because of all the reasons that have already been described in terms of his inability to 53 00:03:26,833 --> 00:03:29,433 really influence the president. 54 00:03:29,433 --> 00:03:34,433 And I have seen in that -- in Director Pompeo a disproportionate amount of influence, then, 55 00:03:37,733 --> 00:03:42,733 coming from the CIA at a very time where diplomacy should actually be what we would be focusing 56 00:03:43,566 --> 00:03:44,566 on. 57 00:03:44,566 --> 00:03:46,533 JUDY WOODRUFF: What do you mean? 58 00:03:46,533 --> 00:03:49,166 DAVID SHEDD: I mean, the director and the president, I think, have hit it off from the 59 00:03:49,166 --> 00:03:53,566 first day, and that relationship has actually grown deeper. 60 00:03:53,566 --> 00:03:55,566 He gives the president daily brief. 61 00:03:55,566 --> 00:04:00,500 And I think the issues that are in alignment with the president's thinking about Iran, 62 00:04:02,366 --> 00:04:05,800 about North Korea, about counterterrorism are really shaped by the CIA far more than 63 00:04:06,733 --> 00:04:08,733 Secretary Tillerson. 64 00:04:08,733 --> 00:04:11,733 JUDY WOODRUFF: David Ignatius, there were Democrats out today saying damage has been 65 00:04:11,733 --> 00:04:16,733 done to America's role in the world, to how America is seen by other countries under the 66 00:04:19,233 --> 00:04:22,366 Trump-Tillerson 14 months. 67 00:04:22,366 --> 00:04:24,966 Do you agree? 68 00:04:24,966 --> 00:04:28,366 DAVID IGNATIUS: I think there's no question that Trump has succeeded in his often self-proclaimed 69 00:04:30,733 --> 00:04:35,700 goal of disrupting, destabilizing the world and traditional relationships, assumptions 70 00:04:38,333 --> 00:04:40,033 about American policy. 71 00:04:40,033 --> 00:04:42,133 He's wanted to shake things up, and he has. 72 00:04:42,133 --> 00:04:47,133 I just was in Europe last weekend listening to foreign policy discussion, and it's fair 73 00:04:49,466 --> 00:04:52,566 to say that our allies are concerned. 74 00:04:52,566 --> 00:04:56,633 They see America heading in different directions. 75 00:04:56,633 --> 00:05:01,633 They want the United States to be a strong leader of the system that the U.S. created 76 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,966 after World War II, and they're concerned that Trump is walking away from that. 77 00:05:06,966 --> 00:05:09,000 So, yes, I think there has been damage. 78 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,966 I think it is important that any president, President Trump included, have a secretary 79 00:05:15,900 --> 00:05:20,000 of state who can speak confidently for the president, who everybody around the world 80 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:25,000 knows he speaks on behalf of the president with his voice, in effect. 81 00:05:25,866 --> 00:05:26,833 Rex Tillerson couldn't do that. 82 00:05:26,833 --> 00:05:29,200 That was part of his problem. 83 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:34,200 In that sense, it's better to have a secretary who can have a consistent, straightforward 84 00:05:36,333 --> 00:05:41,066 expression of policy, especially as we head into these very delicate negotiations with 85 00:05:41,066 --> 00:05:43,200 North Korea. 86 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,633 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Nick Burns, you were saying a moment ago there's an opportunity for change 87 00:05:45,633 --> 00:05:47,366 with Mike Pompeo coming in. 88 00:05:47,366 --> 00:05:48,633 How so? 89 00:05:48,633 --> 00:05:51,233 What kind of change should we look for? 90 00:05:51,233 --> 00:05:55,200 NICHOLAS BURNS: Well, first, what David Ignatius just said, I think all of our recent secretaries 91 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,266 of state would say that they were successful when they had the support of the president. 92 00:05:59,266 --> 00:06:02,733 They have to have the support of the president, or else you don't have credibility overseas. 93 00:06:02,733 --> 00:06:07,733 So, if Mike Pompeo is seen as someone in whom President Trump has great confidence, and 94 00:06:10,233 --> 00:06:13,266 if President Trump can be consistent in exhibiting that confidence, and not undercutting Pompeo, 95 00:06:15,733 --> 00:06:19,833 the way he clearly undercut Secretary Tillerson, then I think Secretary Pompeo, secretary-designate 96 00:06:21,266 --> 00:06:24,133 Pompeo, has a chance to be an influential secretary of state. 97 00:06:24,133 --> 00:06:28,233 And he will be more effective around the world if people think he's speaking for President 98 00:06:28,233 --> 00:06:29,500 Trump. 99 00:06:29,500 --> 00:06:31,300 Two issues, Judy, to watch out for. 100 00:06:31,300 --> 00:06:35,000 North Korea is by far the most important issue right now. 101 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,033 Secretary-designate Pompeo, I hope there will be speedy confirmation hearings. 102 00:06:39,033 --> 00:06:44,033 We need him out there, I hope, to go to Pyongyang before the summit meeting to see if the North 103 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:46,933 Koreans are really serious. 104 00:06:46,933 --> 00:06:50,233 I support what President Trump is trying to do through diplomacy, turning toward it, but 105 00:06:50,233 --> 00:06:52,100 you have to have it well-prepared. 106 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:55,333 And Pompeo has been a noted critic of the Iran nuclear deal. 107 00:06:55,333 --> 00:06:59,300 That could spell bad news for those of us who believe that we should continue with the 108 00:06:59,300 --> 00:07:01,066 Iran nuclear deal. 109 00:07:01,066 --> 00:07:03,466 That will exacerbate our problems with Europe and the rest of the world. 110 00:07:03,466 --> 00:07:08,466 JUDY WOODRUFF: So, David Shedd, where do you - - how do you expect to see policy change 111 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,600 or be reconfigured in some way, whether it's North Korea, Russia, Iran? 112 00:07:15,566 --> 00:07:19,600 DAVID SHEDD: I think that the ability of Mike Pompeo both now in his director of CIA role 113 00:07:23,433 --> 00:07:28,433 and now as secretary of state, should he be confirmed, will give the president truth to 114 00:07:29,433 --> 00:07:31,466 power. 115 00:07:31,466 --> 00:07:33,900 And I think he will do that as a result of the relationship that he has. 116 00:07:33,900 --> 00:07:38,733 And so on those key countries that you mentioned and the topics that are associated with that, 117 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,866 I think secretary Pompeo will tell the president when he's off the mark. 118 00:07:45,866 --> 00:07:48,600 And I think it will be taken in the kind of relationship that they have built over the 119 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,100 last 14 months. 120 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:52,666 JUDY WOODRUFF: What does that mean, say, for North Korea? 121 00:07:52,666 --> 00:07:56,500 DAVID SHEDD: I think he will tell the president that, ultimately, the eye on the ball is denuclearization 122 00:07:58,533 --> 00:08:02,633 of the Korean Peninsula, and that nothing short of that and with all that goes along 123 00:08:02,633 --> 00:08:07,633 with that in terms of having the capability to attest to the fact that Kim Jong-un is 124 00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:15,300 denuclearizing the peninsula will be something that he can drive President Trump to accept 125 00:08:16,466 --> 00:08:18,533 as an outcome, and nothing short. 126 00:08:18,533 --> 00:08:21,933 JUDY WOODRUFF: David Ignatius, what would you add to that with regard to North Korea? 127 00:08:21,933 --> 00:08:26,933 And what about U.S. relations with Russia, where the president seems to resist wanting 128 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,133 to give a full-throated criticism of Russia's role and more? 129 00:08:34,166 --> 00:08:38,466 People are calling for him to condemn Russia's activities, not just in the election, but 130 00:08:39,633 --> 00:08:41,766 Syria and on and on down the list. 131 00:08:41,766 --> 00:08:46,300 DAVID IGNATIUS: If Mike Pompeo is a trusted representative, a trusted emissary for President 132 00:08:48,266 --> 00:08:52,333 Trump, as was suggested a moment ago, the idea of going to Pyongyang to begin to set 133 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,966 the table for the conversations is crucial. 134 00:08:57,966 --> 00:09:02,966 Pompeo is thoroughly read into the intelligence about the Korea situation, obviously. 135 00:09:04,966 --> 00:09:08,233 I just note, with Tillerson on the way out, the intellectual architect of this idea of 136 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,333 engagement with North Korea, establishing the conditions for negotiations, was Rex Tillerson's 137 00:09:17,500 --> 00:09:18,500 work. 138 00:09:18,500 --> 00:09:19,966 He took it very seriously. 139 00:09:19,966 --> 00:09:24,433 The president is now benefiting from the work that was done. 140 00:09:24,433 --> 00:09:29,433 Russia is the biggest unasked question for the administration. 141 00:09:31,433 --> 00:09:33,533 They haven't really gotten to the point of thinking clearly about strategy. 142 00:09:33,533 --> 00:09:38,500 Again, that's something that Pompeo ought to be able to drive, because the president 143 00:09:39,233 --> 00:09:41,200 will listen to him. 144 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,933 The president has to look Russian aggression and mischief in the eye and begin to deal 145 00:09:46,300 --> 00:09:48,333 with it. 146 00:09:48,333 --> 00:09:50,266 Otherwise, we will just -- you know, as a country, we are going to have an increasing 147 00:09:50,266 --> 00:09:52,766 problem. 148 00:09:52,766 --> 00:09:54,800 JUDY WOODRUFF: As you said, irony with regard to the approach, diplomatic approach to North 149 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,333 Korea. 150 00:09:57,333 --> 00:10:00,800 But, Nick Burns, how would you measure a change in the U.S. approach to Russia at this point? 151 00:10:02,766 --> 00:10:05,466 NICHOLAS BURNS: Well, there's an immediate question, Judy, probably, in the next 24 hours. 152 00:10:05,466 --> 00:10:08,633 The British prime minister will very likely tell the House of Commons tomorrow that it 153 00:10:08,633 --> 00:10:13,600 was Russia that engineered this nerve agent attack in Salisbury, England. 154 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,033 The United States has to stand squarely behind Britain. 155 00:10:17,033 --> 00:10:21,500 Britain may go to the NATO alliance, not to go to war with Russia, but to exact further 156 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:23,566 sanctions against Russia. 157 00:10:23,566 --> 00:10:26,833 And the Trump administration, including the president this morning, very Delphic about 158 00:10:26,833 --> 00:10:29,766 what they were going to do in supporting Britain. 159 00:10:29,766 --> 00:10:31,833 I think there is only one answer. 160 00:10:31,833 --> 00:10:35,733 We have to be behind Britain and lead the NATO alliance to deter Putin from any further 161 00:10:35,733 --> 00:10:38,300 such attacks. 162 00:10:38,300 --> 00:10:41,733 There is also, of course, the invasion of our election in 2016, the conspiracy to undermine 163 00:10:42,933 --> 00:10:44,900 our election. 164 00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:48,133 And one would hope that Mike Pompeo could convince President Trump, finally, that we 165 00:10:48,133 --> 00:10:53,133 have to be critical of President Putin and raise our defenses for the 2018 and 2020 elections. 166 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,266 JUDY WOODRUFF: David Shedd, do you have a clear expectation on what we will see on Russia, 167 00:10:57,266 --> 00:10:59,266 with regard to Russia? 168 00:10:59,266 --> 00:11:02,333 DAVID SHEDD: I think that Mike Pompeo, coming with the knowledge that he has working at 169 00:11:02,333 --> 00:11:07,333 the CIA about the active measures that the Russians have been involved in for decades, 170 00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:14,133 and most recently using the means of technology, that, in fact, he will, as Nick suggests, 171 00:11:16,133 --> 00:11:20,633 be able to reach the president with the high impact of what those active measures are by 172 00:11:22,566 --> 00:11:27,033 way of intermission into our political system and undercutting democracy full-scale. 173 00:11:28,433 --> 00:11:30,966 JUDY WOODRUFF: Does that mean taking a tougher line? 174 00:11:30,966 --> 00:11:33,433 DAVID SHEDD: It absolutely means taking a tougher line. 175 00:11:33,433 --> 00:11:37,900 It's recognizing that, perhaps in Italy, in their elections, for example, calling that 176 00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:42,900 out, calling it out in terms of the constant Russian efforts to divide and conquer NATO 177 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,433 by way of their activities, the support for the Baltic countries. 178 00:11:47,433 --> 00:11:49,433 And you can go on and on. 179 00:11:49,433 --> 00:11:53,700 JUDY WOODRUFF: And just finally and quickly, David Ignatius, a word about the incoming 180 00:11:54,866 --> 00:11:59,066 CIA director, or the designate, Gina Haspel. 181 00:11:59,066 --> 00:12:00,166 What do we know about her? 182 00:12:00,166 --> 00:12:01,666 What should we expect? 183 00:12:01,666 --> 00:12:05,966 DAVID IGNATIUS: Gina Haspel is a career CIA operations officer. 184 00:12:05,966 --> 00:12:10,033 She's been in some important and sensitive positions. 185 00:12:10,033 --> 00:12:15,033 One that's going to draw a lot of controversy is her role of running a black site for detention 186 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:18,366 interrogation in Thailand. 187 00:12:18,366 --> 00:12:22,933 It's really important and worth noting that she will be, if confirmed, the first woman 188 00:12:22,933 --> 00:12:24,266 director of the CIA. 189 00:12:24,266 --> 00:12:25,833 That's a big position. 190 00:12:25,833 --> 00:12:28,866 It's a significant glass ceiling that's been broken. 191 00:12:28,866 --> 00:12:33,866 She will have, I think, strong support of the work force, and probably support from 192 00:12:35,466 --> 00:12:38,166 people in the Obama administration who know her and worked with her. 193 00:12:38,166 --> 00:12:40,100 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Nick Burns, 20 seconds. 194 00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:42,233 NICHOLAS BURNS: A very significant appointment. 195 00:12:42,233 --> 00:12:45,266 What the president needs is a tight national security team. 196 00:12:45,266 --> 00:12:47,766 He has a star in Jim Mattis. 197 00:12:47,766 --> 00:12:51,833 If Mattis, Pompeo, Haspel can work together, then the president ought to listen to them, 198 00:12:51,833 --> 00:12:55,900 because the president has not been an effective president so far in his presidency with the 199 00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:58,000 rest of the world. 200 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,900 JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, this was a day when eyes were riveted on this president and the changes 201 00:13:03,933 --> 00:13:05,866 he is capable of making. 202 00:13:05,866 --> 00:13:09,200 Nick Burns, David Ignatius, David Shedd, gentlemen, thank you all. 203 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:10,200 NICHOLAS BURNS: Thank you, Judy. 204 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:11,200 DAVID IGNATIUS: Thank you. 205 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:11,333 DAVID SHEDD: Thank you.