WEBVTT 00:02.033 --> 00:04.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: To help us make sense of what these transcripts mean for the impeachment 00:04.200 --> 00:08.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% inquiry, I'm joined by our own Nick Schifrin and Lisa Desjardins, who have been closely 00:08.233 --> 00:10.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% following this investigation. 00:10.066 --> 00:12.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Welcome back to you both. 00:12.066 --> 00:15.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Thank you again for poring through all of these pages of transcripts that have come 00:15.033 --> 00:17.000 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% out. 00:17.000 --> 00:19.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Lisa, let's talk first about these changes that Sondland made his testimony. 00:19.900 --> 00:21.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% How significant are they? 00:21.500 --> 00:22.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% What are they? 00:22.733 --> 00:24.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% LISA DESJARDINS: Let me use a prop to explain. 00:24.633 --> 00:26.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% This is the full -- Sondland's testimony, double-sided. 00:26.433 --> 00:27.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That's your day today. 00:27.933 --> 00:29.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: This is our day today, part of it. 00:29.933 --> 00:34.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But, of this, it's really these few five pages we're talking about, his revisions. 00:34.433 --> 00:36.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And here's why it's important. 00:36.100 --> 00:38.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% It speaks to this idea of whether there was a quid pro quo. 00:38.933 --> 00:41.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Let's look at exactly what he changed here. 00:41.000 --> 00:45.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% First of all, he said that, before today, he didn't recall any conversations where he 00:47.300 --> 00:50.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% was tying aid to these investigations of the Bidens in 2016. 00:50.800 --> 00:55.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% His revision, however, now he says he does remember talking with a leading Ukrainian, 00:57.000 --> 00:59.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% really the contact point for President Zelensky. 00:59.666 --> 01:03.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And he also said now he does remember specifically telling the Zelensky aide that aid was unlikely 01:07.233 --> 01:12.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% unless they made a statement saying that Ukraine would investigate 2016 and also the Bidens. 01:14.166 --> 01:18.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So this really speaks to the idea of whether the U.S. was demanding something from Ukraine 01:19.833 --> 01:21.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in exchange for aid money. 01:21.733 --> 01:24.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Gordon Sondland's testimony is that he personally did tell them that. 01:24.400 --> 01:26.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That is a pretty big revision today to see. 01:26.500 --> 01:28.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Nick, can you zoom out a little bit more? 01:28.766 --> 01:31.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Tell us a little bit more about Sondland. 01:31.000 --> 01:36.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I mean, he was a supporter of the president, as Lisa reported, a big GOP donor. 01:36.000 --> 01:39.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And he's been a defender of the president all along as well. 01:39.333 --> 01:42.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: A supporter of the president, a defender of the president, and someone who 01:42.466 --> 01:46.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% had access to the president, really the only one we have been talking about who regularly 01:46.900 --> 01:48.933 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% talked to the president. 01:48.933 --> 01:52.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He testified that he talked to the president three times specifically about this and, in 01:52.633 --> 01:57.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% each of those times, the president didn't mention Vice President Biden. 01:57.000 --> 02:00.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And Sondland was asked at one point in this story by another diplomat, hey, this seems 02:00.866 --> 02:02.833 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% crazy. 02:02.833 --> 02:06.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Is the president really withholding aid before Ukraine investigates Biden? 02:06.566 --> 02:08.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so he called the president. 02:08.066 --> 02:12.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we saw what he said on that phone call with the president. 02:12.266 --> 02:15.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He said: "I asked the president an open-ended question. 02:15.066 --> 02:17.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% 'What do you want from Ukraine?' 02:17.000 --> 02:18.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He said: 'I want nothing. 02:18.266 --> 02:20.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I want no quid pro quo. 02:20.066 --> 02:22.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I want Zelensky to do the right thing.' 02:22.533 --> 02:23.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I said, 'What does that mean?' 02:23.800 --> 02:25.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he said, 'I want him to do what he ran on.'" 02:25.966 --> 02:27.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that was the end of the conversation. 02:27.733 --> 02:29.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That is what the president was saying today. 02:29.633 --> 02:33.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% There was no quid pro quo at all, because the president told Sondland this. 02:33.600 --> 02:38.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And not only that, that the Ukrainians didn't know that the president had actually withheld 02:39.700 --> 02:41.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% any of this military aid. 02:41.300 --> 02:45.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And that's where the timeline that Lisa comes in is so important. 02:45.800 --> 02:50.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% One month after that phone call, we see Sondland now admitting that he did tell the Ukrainians, 02:52.800 --> 02:54.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and that's why that revision and the timeline of that revision is so important. 02:54.900 --> 02:57.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So, Lisa, about this timeline that Nick is talking about, that's something 02:57.533 --> 03:02.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% else that our team noticed in these transcripts, some interesting timing-related issues there. 03:05.000 --> 03:07.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: Sondland says very specifically that, for a long time, what he knew was, there 03:07.500 --> 03:12.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was a general corruption investigation, we wanted Ukraine to be less corrupt, that that 03:12.233 --> 03:14.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% was the push. 03:14.266 --> 03:17.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But he says in his testimony -- let's look - - that, in fact, something changed, as he 03:17.800 --> 03:22.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% knew it, around August, and that that thing that changed was that the general corruption 03:22.366 --> 03:27.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% concerned -- he calls it vanilla corruption - - became concerned about 2016 and Burisma. 03:29.366 --> 03:32.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So this idea of changing how Ukraine operates, making it less corrupt shifted into a specific 03:33.700 --> 03:35.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% concern about these two investigations. 03:35.800 --> 03:40.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now, as to the timeline that Nick is talking about, what's amazing about all this is that 03:42.533 --> 03:45.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that same day that he himself, Sondland, says he told the Ukrainians, hey, we have to now 03:47.900 --> 03:52.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% get these investigations that he says are now front and center, proof from you that 03:52.300 --> 03:56.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you're doing them, that's the same day that Vice President Pence was meeting with President 03:56.666 --> 03:58.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Zelensky in Poland. 03:58.866 --> 04:03.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Now, who knows whether Mike Pence knew anything or not, but this is the reason that conversation 04:04.133 --> 04:06.700 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% happened. 04:06.700 --> 04:10.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And we see here a key aide becoming more and more aware that someone wants these investigations 04:10.866 --> 04:12.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% front and center. 04:12.133 --> 04:14.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he says this to the Ukrainians on that day. 04:14.200 --> 04:15.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So interesting. 04:15.666 --> 04:19.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Nick, let's step back again to Ambassador Volker. 04:19.333 --> 04:23.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% He was working closely with Ukrainian officials throughout this process. 04:23.633 --> 04:27.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What did he say about what they were doing with regards to these corruption investigations? 04:27.633 --> 04:30.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: He makes the same distinction that Lisa was just making that Sondland makes, 04:30.666 --> 04:33.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% between vanilla corruption and let's just call it not-so-vanilla corruption. 04:33.966 --> 04:37.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So the vanilla corruption, if you will, is what the U.S. has been going after for the 04:37.466 --> 04:40.133 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% last five years, right? 04:40.133 --> 04:43.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% The Obama administration, the Trump administration, all wanted Ukraine to tackle endemic corruption. 04:46.300 --> 04:49.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Under the Obama administration, that effort was led by Vice President Biden, but it continued 04:49.633 --> 04:52.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and had the same targets under the Trump administration. 04:52.933 --> 04:54.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% What changed was Rudy Giuliani. 04:54.800 --> 04:56.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This wasn't vanilla. 04:56.866 --> 05:01.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He wanted an investigation into whether Ukraine hacked into the DNC in 2016, which the U.S. 05:02.700 --> 05:04.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% intelligence community says is not what happened. 05:04.733 --> 05:09.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And he wanted an investigation into Burisma, this Ukrainian company where Hunter Biden 05:10.133 --> 05:12.633 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% was on the board. 05:12.633 --> 05:16.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% What Volker testified today was that the Ukrainians who were telling Giuliani this, who were kind 05:18.500 --> 05:21.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of whispering into his ear and egging him on, that they were self-serving, that they 05:21.533 --> 05:26.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% actually were hoping to appear important and telling Giuliani what he thought they wanted 05:28.433 --> 05:31.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% - - what he -- what they thought he wanted to hear, in order to somehow save their jobs 05:31.433 --> 05:34.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or be seen as useful by the Trump administration. 05:34.633 --> 05:39.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Volker testified, Vice President Biden wasn't corrupt, that the Ukrainians who worked with 05:40.500 --> 05:42.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% him and Hunter Biden were. 05:42.966 --> 05:47.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% The Ukrainian corruption, that's what everyone wanted investigated, until Giuliani stepped 05:48.000 --> 05:49.533 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% in. 05:49.533 --> 05:52.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And it ended up that we had this temporary hold on military aid. 05:52.200 --> 05:54.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we're investigating this and talking about this right now. 05:54.400 --> 05:58.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% LISA DESJARDINS: It's a picture of many outside forces manipulating U.S. policy, not necessarily 05:58.000 --> 06:00.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - - not the diplomats, in this testimony. 06:00.566 --> 06:03.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Lisa Desjardins, Nick Schifrin, thank you again for getting us up to speed 06:03.666 --> 06:04.666 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% on all of this. 06:04.666 --> 06:06.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: Thank you. 06:06.733 --> 06:09.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: We want to turn now to how the Trump administration is reacting to this 06:09.633 --> 06:11.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% latest set of transcripts. 06:11.633 --> 06:14.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so I am joined by our White House correspondent, Yamiche Alcindor. 06:14.966 --> 06:18.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Yamiche, so this is the second day of transcripts that have come out. 06:18.000 --> 06:21.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I know you have been tracking how the president has been reacting to this. 06:21.266 --> 06:25.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I also understand you have been in touch with Gordon Sondland's -- this gentleman we 06:25.700 --> 06:28.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% have been hearing about from Lisa and Nick - - his attorney as well. 06:28.833 --> 06:32.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% What can you tell us about these -- their reactions to all this? 06:32.566 --> 06:37.566 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% YAMICHE ALCINDOR: So, the White House is essentially saying that these two transcripts really prove 06:39.166 --> 06:41.566 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that President Trump shouldn't be a target of an impeachment inquiry. 06:41.566 --> 06:45.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Let me read to you what White House Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham put out just a 06:45.400 --> 06:47.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% couple minutes ago. 06:47.433 --> 06:50.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It says -- she says in a statement: ""Both transcripts released today show that there 06:50.600 --> 06:55.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is even less evidence for this illegitimate impeachment sham than previously thought. 06:55.533 --> 06:57.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The president has done nothing wrong." 06:57.566 --> 07:01.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% She goes on to say, essentially, that Gordon Sondland didn't know -- Gordon Sondland being 07:01.300 --> 07:06.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the E.U. ambassador -- he didn't know the actual details of this -- this military aid 07:07.433 --> 07:09.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% being held up from -- by Ukraine. 07:09.000 --> 07:11.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Of course, his revisions today say something different. 07:11.100 --> 07:14.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% They say he was actually an official who was talking to Ukrainian officials about that 07:14.933 --> 07:19.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% military aid being tied to the investigation of the Bidens -- or that wanted investigation 07:19.566 --> 07:21.666 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% of the Bidens. 07:21.666 --> 07:25.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Then you have the White House pointing to Kurt Volker, who was the U.S. envoy to Ukraine. 07:25.500 --> 07:29.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And they say that , essentially, he said, Ukraine -- Ukrainians didn't know that this 07:29.933 --> 07:32.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% money was being held up, so there couldn't be a quid pro quo. 07:32.966 --> 07:37.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now we know that Ukraine knew as early as August that this was something that was holding 07:37.933 --> 07:41.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% up this money, this investigation of the Bidens that President Trump wanted. 07:41.533 --> 07:45.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It's important to also point to kind of some conflicting facts in these transcripts. 07:45.800 --> 07:50.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It's -- these transcripts really are about both parties being able to pick and choose 07:50.266 --> 07:52.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what they want that makes their party look good. 07:52.266 --> 07:56.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So here's -- if you look at kind of what Gordon Sondland said to the investigators -- I'm 07:56.166 --> 07:58.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% going to read you another exchange. 07:58.166 --> 08:00.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It says: "I testified that it would be improper to do that." 08:00.700 --> 08:03.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That's military aid being connected to the investigation of the Bidens. 08:03.766 --> 08:05.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The question: "And illegal, right?" 08:05.466 --> 08:07.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% "I'm not a lawyer, but I would assume so." 08:07.733 --> 08:12.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Then Kurt Volker, again, the U.S. envoy to Ukraine, he says: "I was surprised." 08:12.233 --> 08:15.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That was when he's talking about the call between President Trump and the president 08:15.933 --> 08:17.366 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% of Ukraine. 08:17.366 --> 08:19.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The question: "Were you troubled at all by what you read?" 08:19.066 --> 08:21.166 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% "Yes." 08:21.166 --> 08:23.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So as the White House is essentially pointing to these testimonies, saying, they prove our 08:23.266 --> 08:26.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% case, Democrats are pointing and saying, actually, it proves that the president was involved 08:26.833 --> 08:28.866 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in a quid pro quo. 08:28.866 --> 08:32.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And Gordon Sondland's attorney essentially told me he didn't want to go too far past 08:32.533 --> 08:35.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what the president -- what Gordon Sondland put out. 08:35.133 --> 08:39.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But he said, essentially, that it's -- it would be wrong for people to read into that 08:39.533 --> 08:43.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Gordon Sondland was really trying to correct himself and was really trying to say that 08:43.400 --> 08:45.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he had some sort of ulterior motive. 08:45.466 --> 08:48.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Yamiche, I know you have been tracking the president since he became 08:48.700 --> 08:50.766 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% the president. 08:50.766 --> 08:54.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% These accumulated transcripts do give us a window into how he runs his foreign policy. 08:54.266 --> 08:59.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I wonder what sense you're getting of the view that this reflects of the president's 08:59.200 --> 09:03.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% policy and the impact it has on the people enacting that policy. 09:03.533 --> 09:08.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% YAMICHE ALCINDOR: This really shows that President Trump really takes foreign policy personally. 09:10.466 --> 09:14.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% In both transcripts, he's heard saying that Ukraine was filled with bad people that tried 09:14.433 --> 09:18.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to take him down and were really trying to hurt his 2016 presidential campaign. 09:18.200 --> 09:20.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Democrats say that that's a debunked claim. 09:20.300 --> 09:23.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But what we have essentially is the president saying, this country was trying to go after 09:23.700 --> 09:25.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% me, and, as a result, I don't like these people. 09:25.733 --> 09:29.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And, lastly, we know the president has been railing from the get-go 09:29.033 --> 09:31.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% against this impeachment inquiry. 09:31.033 --> 09:35.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Has he said anything recently, yesterday or today, about these most recent developments? 09:35.733 --> 09:40.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% YAMICHE ALCINDOR: The president has been making his case to the American public in rallies. 09:42.733 --> 09:46.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Just yesterday, he was in Kentucky trying to get people to support the governor there 09:46.233 --> 09:48.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who's up for reelection tonight. 09:48.266 --> 09:50.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Here's what he had to say: 09:50.400 --> 09:54.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: The Bidens got rich while America was robbed. 09:55.900 --> 09:57.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And let me tell you, the fake news will not put it in. 09:57.833 --> 09:59.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% What is unsubstantiated? 09:59.300 --> 10:04.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He is on tape doing a real quid pro quo. 10:05.666 --> 10:08.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Yamiche, thank you very much. 10:08.400 --> 10:10.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% YAMICHE ALCINDOR: There is no evidence of Joe Biden doing any wrongdoing. 10:10.833 --> 10:13.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But that's -- but that's pretty much all we can say about that, that there's no evidence 10:13.766 --> 10:16.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of what the president was just saying. 10:16.400 --> 10:17.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, Yamiche Alcindor, as always, thank you.