1 00:00:02,033 --> 00:00:04,200 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: To help us make sense of what these transcripts mean for the impeachment 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:08,233 inquiry, I'm joined by our own Nick Schifrin and Lisa Desjardins, who have been closely 3 00:00:08,233 --> 00:00:10,066 following this investigation. 4 00:00:10,066 --> 00:00:12,066 Welcome back to you both. 5 00:00:12,066 --> 00:00:15,033 Thank you again for poring through all of these pages of transcripts that have come 6 00:00:15,033 --> 00:00:17,000 out. 7 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,900 Lisa, let's talk first about these changes that Sondland made his testimony. 8 00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:21,500 How significant are they? 9 00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:22,733 What are they? 10 00:00:22,733 --> 00:00:24,633 LISA DESJARDINS: Let me use a prop to explain. 11 00:00:24,633 --> 00:00:26,433 This is the full -- Sondland's testimony, double-sided. 12 00:00:26,433 --> 00:00:27,933 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That's your day today. 13 00:00:27,933 --> 00:00:29,933 LISA DESJARDINS: This is our day today, part of it. 14 00:00:29,933 --> 00:00:34,433 But, of this, it's really these few five pages we're talking about, his revisions. 15 00:00:34,433 --> 00:00:36,100 And here's why it's important. 16 00:00:36,100 --> 00:00:38,933 It speaks to this idea of whether there was a quid pro quo. 17 00:00:38,933 --> 00:00:41,000 Let's look at exactly what he changed here. 18 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,700 First of all, he said that, before today, he didn't recall any conversations where he 19 00:00:47,300 --> 00:00:50,800 was tying aid to these investigations of the Bidens in 2016. 20 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,766 His revision, however, now he says he does remember talking with a leading Ukrainian, 21 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,666 really the contact point for President Zelensky. 22 00:00:59,666 --> 00:01:03,833 And he also said now he does remember specifically telling the Zelensky aide that aid was unlikely 23 00:01:07,233 --> 00:01:12,233 unless they made a statement saying that Ukraine would investigate 2016 and also the Bidens. 24 00:01:14,166 --> 00:01:18,966 So this really speaks to the idea of whether the U.S. was demanding something from Ukraine 25 00:01:19,833 --> 00:01:21,733 in exchange for aid money. 26 00:01:21,733 --> 00:01:24,400 Gordon Sondland's testimony is that he personally did tell them that. 27 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,500 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That is a pretty big revision today to see. 28 00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:28,766 Nick, can you zoom out a little bit more? 29 00:01:28,766 --> 00:01:31,000 Tell us a little bit more about Sondland. 30 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,000 I mean, he was a supporter of the president, as Lisa reported, a big GOP donor. 31 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,333 And he's been a defender of the president all along as well. 32 00:01:39,333 --> 00:01:42,466 NICK SCHIFRIN: A supporter of the president, a defender of the president, and someone who 33 00:01:42,466 --> 00:01:46,900 had access to the president, really the only one we have been talking about who regularly 34 00:01:46,900 --> 00:01:48,933 talked to the president. 35 00:01:48,933 --> 00:01:52,633 He testified that he talked to the president three times specifically about this and, in 36 00:01:52,633 --> 00:01:57,000 each of those times, the president didn't mention Vice President Biden. 37 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,866 And Sondland was asked at one point in this story by another diplomat, hey, this seems 38 00:02:00,866 --> 00:02:02,833 crazy. 39 00:02:02,833 --> 00:02:06,566 Is the president really withholding aid before Ukraine investigates Biden? 40 00:02:06,566 --> 00:02:08,066 And so he called the president. 41 00:02:08,066 --> 00:02:12,266 And we saw what he said on that phone call with the president. 42 00:02:12,266 --> 00:02:15,066 He said: "I asked the president an open-ended question. 43 00:02:15,066 --> 00:02:17,000 'What do you want from Ukraine?' 44 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:18,266 He said: 'I want nothing. 45 00:02:18,266 --> 00:02:20,066 I want no quid pro quo. 46 00:02:20,066 --> 00:02:22,533 I want Zelensky to do the right thing.' 47 00:02:22,533 --> 00:02:23,800 And I said, 'What does that mean?' 48 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:25,966 And he said, 'I want him to do what he ran on.'" 49 00:02:25,966 --> 00:02:27,733 And that was the end of the conversation. 50 00:02:27,733 --> 00:02:29,633 That is what the president was saying today. 51 00:02:29,633 --> 00:02:33,600 There was no quid pro quo at all, because the president told Sondland this. 52 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,600 And not only that, that the Ukrainians didn't know that the president had actually withheld 53 00:02:39,700 --> 00:02:41,300 any of this military aid. 54 00:02:41,300 --> 00:02:45,800 And that's where the timeline that Lisa comes in is so important. 55 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,800 One month after that phone call, we see Sondland now admitting that he did tell the Ukrainians, 56 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,900 and that's why that revision and the timeline of that revision is so important. 57 00:02:54,900 --> 00:02:57,533 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So, Lisa, about this timeline that Nick is talking about, that's something 58 00:02:57,533 --> 00:03:02,500 else that our team noticed in these transcripts, some interesting timing-related issues there. 59 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,500 LISA DESJARDINS: Sondland says very specifically that, for a long time, what he knew was, there 60 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:12,233 was a general corruption investigation, we wanted Ukraine to be less corrupt, that that 61 00:03:12,233 --> 00:03:14,266 was the push. 62 00:03:14,266 --> 00:03:17,800 But he says in his testimony -- let's look - - that, in fact, something changed, as he 63 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,366 knew it, around August, and that that thing that changed was that the general corruption 64 00:03:22,366 --> 00:03:27,366 concerned -- he calls it vanilla corruption - - became concerned about 2016 and Burisma. 65 00:03:29,366 --> 00:03:32,500 So this idea of changing how Ukraine operates, making it less corrupt shifted into a specific 66 00:03:33,700 --> 00:03:35,800 concern about these two investigations. 67 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,600 Now, as to the timeline that Nick is talking about, what's amazing about all this is that 68 00:03:42,533 --> 00:03:45,933 that same day that he himself, Sondland, says he told the Ukrainians, hey, we have to now 69 00:03:47,900 --> 00:03:52,300 get these investigations that he says are now front and center, proof from you that 70 00:03:52,300 --> 00:03:56,666 you're doing them, that's the same day that Vice President Pence was meeting with President 71 00:03:56,666 --> 00:03:58,866 Zelensky in Poland. 72 00:03:58,866 --> 00:04:03,300 Now, who knows whether Mike Pence knew anything or not, but this is the reason that conversation 73 00:04:04,133 --> 00:04:06,700 happened. 74 00:04:06,700 --> 00:04:10,133 And we see here a key aide becoming more and more aware that someone wants these investigations 75 00:04:10,866 --> 00:04:12,133 front and center. 76 00:04:12,133 --> 00:04:14,200 And he says this to the Ukrainians on that day. 77 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:15,666 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So interesting. 78 00:04:15,666 --> 00:04:19,333 Nick, let's step back again to Ambassador Volker. 79 00:04:19,333 --> 00:04:23,633 He was working closely with Ukrainian officials throughout this process. 80 00:04:23,633 --> 00:04:27,633 What did he say about what they were doing with regards to these corruption investigations? 81 00:04:27,633 --> 00:04:30,666 NICK SCHIFRIN: He makes the same distinction that Lisa was just making that Sondland makes, 82 00:04:30,666 --> 00:04:33,966 between vanilla corruption and let's just call it not-so-vanilla corruption. 83 00:04:33,966 --> 00:04:37,466 So the vanilla corruption, if you will, is what the U.S. has been going after for the 84 00:04:37,466 --> 00:04:40,133 last five years, right? 85 00:04:40,133 --> 00:04:43,933 The Obama administration, the Trump administration, all wanted Ukraine to tackle endemic corruption. 86 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:49,633 Under the Obama administration, that effort was led by Vice President Biden, but it continued 87 00:04:49,633 --> 00:04:52,933 and had the same targets under the Trump administration. 88 00:04:52,933 --> 00:04:54,800 What changed was Rudy Giuliani. 89 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,866 This wasn't vanilla. 90 00:04:56,866 --> 00:05:01,300 He wanted an investigation into whether Ukraine hacked into the DNC in 2016, which the U.S. 91 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:04,733 intelligence community says is not what happened. 92 00:05:04,733 --> 00:05:09,400 And he wanted an investigation into Burisma, this Ukrainian company where Hunter Biden 93 00:05:10,133 --> 00:05:12,633 was on the board. 94 00:05:12,633 --> 00:05:16,466 What Volker testified today was that the Ukrainians who were telling Giuliani this, who were kind 95 00:05:18,500 --> 00:05:21,533 of whispering into his ear and egging him on, that they were self-serving, that they 96 00:05:21,533 --> 00:05:26,533 actually were hoping to appear important and telling Giuliani what he thought they wanted 97 00:05:28,433 --> 00:05:31,433 - - what he -- what they thought he wanted to hear, in order to somehow save their jobs 98 00:05:31,433 --> 00:05:34,633 or be seen as useful by the Trump administration. 99 00:05:34,633 --> 00:05:39,633 Volker testified, Vice President Biden wasn't corrupt, that the Ukrainians who worked with 100 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:42,966 him and Hunter Biden were. 101 00:05:42,966 --> 00:05:47,200 The Ukrainian corruption, that's what everyone wanted investigated, until Giuliani stepped 102 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,533 in. 103 00:05:49,533 --> 00:05:52,200 And it ended up that we had this temporary hold on military aid. 104 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,400 And we're investigating this and talking about this right now. 105 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,000 LISA DESJARDINS: It's a picture of many outside forces manipulating U.S. policy, not necessarily 106 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,566 - - not the diplomats, in this testimony. 107 00:06:00,566 --> 00:06:03,666 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Lisa Desjardins, Nick Schifrin, thank you again for getting us up to speed 108 00:06:03,666 --> 00:06:04,666 on all of this. 109 00:06:04,666 --> 00:06:06,733 NICK SCHIFRIN: Thank you. 110 00:06:06,733 --> 00:06:09,633 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: We want to turn now to how the Trump administration is reacting to this 111 00:06:09,633 --> 00:06:11,633 latest set of transcripts. 112 00:06:11,633 --> 00:06:14,966 And so I am joined by our White House correspondent, Yamiche Alcindor. 113 00:06:14,966 --> 00:06:18,000 Yamiche, so this is the second day of transcripts that have come out. 114 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,266 I know you have been tracking how the president has been reacting to this. 115 00:06:21,266 --> 00:06:25,700 And I also understand you have been in touch with Gordon Sondland's -- this gentleman we 116 00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:28,833 have been hearing about from Lisa and Nick - - his attorney as well. 117 00:06:28,833 --> 00:06:32,566 What can you tell us about these -- their reactions to all this? 118 00:06:32,566 --> 00:06:37,566 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: So, the White House is essentially saying that these two transcripts really prove 119 00:06:39,166 --> 00:06:41,566 that President Trump shouldn't be a target of an impeachment inquiry. 120 00:06:41,566 --> 00:06:45,400 Let me read to you what White House Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham put out just a 121 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,433 couple minutes ago. 122 00:06:47,433 --> 00:06:50,600 It says -- she says in a statement: ""Both transcripts released today show that there 123 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:55,533 is even less evidence for this illegitimate impeachment sham than previously thought. 124 00:06:55,533 --> 00:06:57,566 The president has done nothing wrong." 125 00:06:57,566 --> 00:07:01,300 She goes on to say, essentially, that Gordon Sondland didn't know -- Gordon Sondland being 126 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:06,300 the E.U. ambassador -- he didn't know the actual details of this -- this military aid 127 00:07:07,433 --> 00:07:09,000 being held up from -- by Ukraine. 128 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,100 Of course, his revisions today say something different. 129 00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:14,933 They say he was actually an official who was talking to Ukrainian officials about that 130 00:07:14,933 --> 00:07:19,566 military aid being tied to the investigation of the Bidens -- or that wanted investigation 131 00:07:19,566 --> 00:07:21,666 of the Bidens. 132 00:07:21,666 --> 00:07:25,500 Then you have the White House pointing to Kurt Volker, who was the U.S. envoy to Ukraine. 133 00:07:25,500 --> 00:07:29,933 And they say that , essentially, he said, Ukraine -- Ukrainians didn't know that this 134 00:07:29,933 --> 00:07:32,966 money was being held up, so there couldn't be a quid pro quo. 135 00:07:32,966 --> 00:07:37,933 Now we know that Ukraine knew as early as August that this was something that was holding 136 00:07:37,933 --> 00:07:41,533 up this money, this investigation of the Bidens that President Trump wanted. 137 00:07:41,533 --> 00:07:45,800 It's important to also point to kind of some conflicting facts in these transcripts. 138 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:50,266 It's -- these transcripts really are about both parties being able to pick and choose 139 00:07:50,266 --> 00:07:52,266 what they want that makes their party look good. 140 00:07:52,266 --> 00:07:56,166 So here's -- if you look at kind of what Gordon Sondland said to the investigators -- I'm 141 00:07:56,166 --> 00:07:58,166 going to read you another exchange. 142 00:07:58,166 --> 00:08:00,700 It says: "I testified that it would be improper to do that." 143 00:08:00,700 --> 00:08:03,766 That's military aid being connected to the investigation of the Bidens. 144 00:08:03,766 --> 00:08:05,466 The question: "And illegal, right?" 145 00:08:05,466 --> 00:08:07,733 "I'm not a lawyer, but I would assume so." 146 00:08:07,733 --> 00:08:12,233 Then Kurt Volker, again, the U.S. envoy to Ukraine, he says: "I was surprised." 147 00:08:12,233 --> 00:08:15,933 That was when he's talking about the call between President Trump and the president 148 00:08:15,933 --> 00:08:17,366 of Ukraine. 149 00:08:17,366 --> 00:08:19,066 The question: "Were you troubled at all by what you read?" 150 00:08:19,066 --> 00:08:21,166 "Yes." 151 00:08:21,166 --> 00:08:23,266 So as the White House is essentially pointing to these testimonies, saying, they prove our 152 00:08:23,266 --> 00:08:26,833 case, Democrats are pointing and saying, actually, it proves that the president was involved 153 00:08:26,833 --> 00:08:28,866 in a quid pro quo. 154 00:08:28,866 --> 00:08:32,533 And Gordon Sondland's attorney essentially told me he didn't want to go too far past 155 00:08:32,533 --> 00:08:35,133 what the president -- what Gordon Sondland put out. 156 00:08:35,133 --> 00:08:39,533 But he said, essentially, that it's -- it would be wrong for people to read into that 157 00:08:39,533 --> 00:08:43,400 Gordon Sondland was really trying to correct himself and was really trying to say that 158 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,466 he had some sort of ulterior motive. 159 00:08:45,466 --> 00:08:48,700 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Yamiche, I know you have been tracking the president since he became 160 00:08:48,700 --> 00:08:50,766 the president. 161 00:08:50,766 --> 00:08:54,266 These accumulated transcripts do give us a window into how he runs his foreign policy. 162 00:08:54,266 --> 00:08:59,200 And I wonder what sense you're getting of the view that this reflects of the president's 163 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,533 policy and the impact it has on the people enacting that policy. 164 00:09:03,533 --> 00:09:08,533 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: This really shows that President Trump really takes foreign policy personally. 165 00:09:10,466 --> 00:09:14,433 In both transcripts, he's heard saying that Ukraine was filled with bad people that tried 166 00:09:14,433 --> 00:09:18,200 to take him down and were really trying to hurt his 2016 presidential campaign. 167 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,300 Democrats say that that's a debunked claim. 168 00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:23,700 But what we have essentially is the president saying, this country was trying to go after 169 00:09:23,700 --> 00:09:25,733 me, and, as a result, I don't like these people. 170 00:09:25,733 --> 00:09:29,033 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And, lastly, we know the president has been railing from the get-go 171 00:09:29,033 --> 00:09:31,033 against this impeachment inquiry. 172 00:09:31,033 --> 00:09:35,733 Has he said anything recently, yesterday or today, about these most recent developments? 173 00:09:35,733 --> 00:09:40,733 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: The president has been making his case to the American public in rallies. 174 00:09:42,733 --> 00:09:46,233 Just yesterday, he was in Kentucky trying to get people to support the governor there 175 00:09:46,233 --> 00:09:48,266 who's up for reelection tonight. 176 00:09:48,266 --> 00:09:50,400 Here's what he had to say: 177 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,533 DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: The Bidens got rich while America was robbed. 178 00:09:55,900 --> 00:09:57,833 And let me tell you, the fake news will not put it in. 179 00:09:57,833 --> 00:09:59,300 What is unsubstantiated? 180 00:09:59,300 --> 00:10:04,300 He is on tape doing a real quid pro quo. 181 00:10:05,666 --> 00:10:08,400 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Yamiche, thank you very much. 182 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,833 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: There is no evidence of Joe Biden doing any wrongdoing. 183 00:10:10,833 --> 00:10:13,766 But that's -- but that's pretty much all we can say about that, that there's no evidence 184 00:10:13,766 --> 00:10:16,400 of what the president was just saying. 185 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:17,433 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, Yamiche Alcindor, as always, thank you.