WILLIAM BRANGHAM: To
help us make sense of
what these transcripts
mean for the impeachment
inquiry, I'm joined by
our own Nick Schifrin
and Lisa Desjardins,
who have been closely
following this investigation.
Welcome back to you both.
Thank you again for poring
through all of these pages
of transcripts that have come
out.
Lisa, let's talk first
about these changes that
Sondland made his testimony.
How significant are they?
What are they?
LISA DESJARDINS: Let me
use a prop to explain.
This is the full -- Sondland's
testimony, double-sided.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:
That's your day today.
LISA DESJARDINS: This is
our day today, part of it.
But, of this, it's really
these few five pages we're
talking about, his revisions.
And here's why it's important.
It speaks to this
idea of whether there
was a quid pro quo.
Let's look at exactly
what he changed here.
First of all, he said that,
before today, he didn't recall
any conversations where he
was tying aid to these
investigations of
the Bidens in 2016.
His revision, however, now he
says he does remember talking
with a leading Ukrainian,
really the contact point
for President Zelensky.
And he also said now he
does remember specifically
telling the Zelensky aide
that aid was unlikely
unless they made a
statement saying that
Ukraine would investigate
2016 and also the Bidens.
So this really speaks to the
idea of whether the U.S. was
demanding something from Ukraine
in exchange for aid money.
Gordon Sondland's testimony
is that he personally
did tell them that.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:
That is a pretty big
revision today to see.
Nick, can you zoom
out a little bit more?
Tell us a little bit
more about Sondland.
I mean, he was a supporter
of the president, as Lisa
reported, a big GOP donor.
And he's been a defender of the
president all along as well.
NICK SCHIFRIN: A supporter of
the president, a defender of
the president, and someone who
had access to the president,
really the only one we have
been talking about who regularly
talked to the president.
He testified that he talked
to the president three times
specifically about this and, in
each of those times, the
president didn't mention
Vice President Biden.
And Sondland was asked at one
point in this story by another
diplomat, hey, this seems
crazy.
Is the president really
withholding aid before
Ukraine investigates Biden?
And so he called the president.
And we saw what he said on that
phone call with the president.
He said: "I asked the president
an open-ended question.
'What do you want from Ukraine?'
He said: 'I want nothing.
I want no quid pro quo.
I want Zelensky to
do the right thing.'
And I said, 'What
does that mean?'
And he said, 'I want him
to do what he ran on.'"
And that was the end
of the conversation.
That is what the president
was saying today.
There was no quid pro
quo at all, because the
president told Sondland this.
And not only that, that the
Ukrainians didn't know that the
president had actually withheld
any of this military aid.
And that's where the
timeline that Lisa comes
in is so important.
One month after that phone call,
we see Sondland now admitting
that he did tell the Ukrainians,
and that's why that revision
and the timeline of that
revision is so important.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So, Lisa,
about this timeline that Nick is
talking about, that's something
else that our team noticed
in these transcripts,
some interesting
timing-related issues there.
LISA DESJARDINS: Sondland
says very specifically
that, for a long time,
what he knew was, there
was a general corruption
investigation, we wanted Ukraine
to be less corrupt, that that
was the push.
But he says in his testimony
-- let's look - - that, in
fact, something changed, as he
knew it, around August, and
that that thing that changed
was that the general corruption
concerned -- he calls
it vanilla corruption
- - became concerned
about 2016 and Burisma.
So this idea of changing how
Ukraine operates, making it less
corrupt shifted into a specific
concern about these
two investigations.
Now, as to the timeline that
Nick is talking about, what's
amazing about all this is that
that same day that he himself,
Sondland, says he told the
Ukrainians, hey, we have to now
get these investigations that
he says are now front and
center, proof from you that
you're doing them, that's the
same day that Vice President
Pence was meeting with President
Zelensky in Poland.
Now, who knows whether
Mike Pence knew anything
or not, but this is the
reason that conversation
happened.
And we see here a key
aide becoming more and
more aware that someone
wants these investigations
front and center.
And he says this to the
Ukrainians on that day.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:
So interesting.
Nick, let's step back
again to Ambassador Volker.
He was working closely
with Ukrainian officials
throughout this process.
What did he say about what
they were doing with regards to
these corruption investigations?
NICK SCHIFRIN: He makes the
same distinction that Lisa was
just making that Sondland makes,
between vanilla corruption
and let's just call it
not-so-vanilla corruption.
So the vanilla corruption,
if you will, is what the U.S.
has been going after for the
last five years, right?
The Obama administration,
the Trump administration,
all wanted Ukraine to
tackle endemic corruption.
Under the Obama
administration, that effort
was led by Vice President
Biden, but it continued
and had the same targets under
the Trump administration.
What changed was Rudy Giuliani.
This wasn't vanilla.
He wanted an investigation into
whether Ukraine hacked into
the DNC in 2016, which the U.S.
intelligence community
says is not what happened.
And he wanted an investigation
into Burisma, this Ukrainian
company where Hunter Biden
was on the board.
What Volker testified today
was that the Ukrainians
who were telling Giuliani
this, who were kind
of whispering into his ear
and egging him on, that they
were self-serving, that they
actually were hoping to appear
important and telling Giuliani
what he thought they wanted
- - what he -- what they thought
he wanted to hear, in order
to somehow save their jobs
or be seen as useful by
the Trump administration.
Volker testified, Vice President
Biden wasn't corrupt, that
the Ukrainians who worked with
him and Hunter Biden were.
The Ukrainian corruption,
that's what everyone
wanted investigated,
until Giuliani stepped
in.
And it ended up that we had this
temporary hold on military aid.
And we're investigating this and
talking about this right now.
LISA DESJARDINS: It's a
picture of many outside
forces manipulating U.S.
policy, not necessarily
- - not the diplomats,
in this testimony.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Lisa
Desjardins, Nick Schifrin,
thank you again for
getting us up to speed
on all of this.
NICK SCHIFRIN: Thank you.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: We
want to turn now to how
the Trump administration
is reacting to this
latest set of transcripts.
And so I am joined by our
White House correspondent,
Yamiche Alcindor.
Yamiche, so this is the
second day of transcripts
that have come out.
I know you have been
tracking how the president
has been reacting to this.
And I also understand you
have been in touch with Gordon
Sondland's -- this gentleman we
have been hearing about
from Lisa and Nick - -
his attorney as well.
What can you tell us about these
-- their reactions to all this?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: So, the
White House is essentially
saying that these two
transcripts really prove
that President Trump
shouldn't be a target of
an impeachment inquiry.
Let me read to you what
White House Press Secretary
Stephanie Grisham put out just a
couple minutes ago.
It says -- she says in a
statement: ""Both transcripts
released today show that there
is even less evidence for
this illegitimate impeachment
sham than previously thought.
The president has
done nothing wrong."
She goes on to say, essentially,
that Gordon Sondland didn't
know -- Gordon Sondland being
the E.U. ambassador -- he
didn't know the actual details
of this -- this military aid
being held up from
-- by Ukraine.
Of course, his revisions
today say something different.
They say he was actually an
official who was talking to
Ukrainian officials about that
military aid being tied to the
investigation of the Bidens --
or that wanted investigation
of the Bidens.
Then you have the White House
pointing to Kurt Volker, who
was the U.S. envoy to Ukraine.
And they say that , essentially,
he said, Ukraine -- Ukrainians
didn't know that this
money was being held
up, so there couldn't
be a quid pro quo.
Now we know that Ukraine knew
as early as August that this
was something that was holding
up this money, this
investigation of the Bidens
that President Trump wanted.
It's important to also point
to kind of some conflicting
facts in these transcripts.
It's -- these transcripts
really are about both parties
being able to pick and choose
what they want that makes
their party look good.
So here's -- if you look at
kind of what Gordon Sondland
said to the investigators -- I'm
going to read you
another exchange.
It says: "I testified that it
would be improper to do that."
That's military aid
being connected to the
investigation of the Bidens.
The question: "And
illegal, right?"
"I'm not a lawyer, but
I would assume so."
Then Kurt Volker, again,
the U.S. envoy to Ukraine,
he says: "I was surprised."
That was when he's talking
about the call between President
Trump and the president
of Ukraine.
The question: "Were you troubled
at all by what you read?"
"Yes."
So as the White House
is essentially pointing
to these testimonies,
saying, they prove our
case, Democrats are pointing
and saying, actually, it proves
that the president was involved
in a quid pro quo.
And Gordon Sondland's attorney
essentially told me he didn't
want to go too far past
what the president -- what
Gordon Sondland put out.
But he said, essentially,
that it's -- it would be wrong
for people to read into that
Gordon Sondland was really
trying to correct himself and
was really trying to say that
he had some sort
of ulterior motive.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Yamiche, I
know you have been tracking
the president since he became
the president.
These accumulated transcripts
do give us a window into how
he runs his foreign policy.
And I wonder what sense you're
getting of the view that this
reflects of the president's
policy and the impact it has on
the people enacting that policy.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: This
really shows that President
Trump really takes
foreign policy personally.
In both transcripts, he's heard
saying that Ukraine was filled
with bad people that tried
to take him down and were
really trying to hurt his
2016 presidential campaign.
Democrats say that
that's a debunked claim.
But what we have essentially
is the president saying, this
country was trying to go after
me, and, as a result, I
don't like these people.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And, lastly,
we know the president has
been railing from the get-go
against this
impeachment inquiry.
Has he said anything recently,
yesterday or today, about
these most recent developments?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: The president
has been making his case to
the American public in rallies.
Just yesterday, he was in
Kentucky trying to get people
to support the governor there
who's up for reelection tonight.
Here's what he had to say:
DONALD TRUMP, President of the
United States: The Bidens got
rich while America was robbed.
And let me tell you, the
fake news will not put it in.
What is unsubstantiated?
He is on tape doing
a real quid pro quo.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Yamiche,
thank you very much.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: There is
no evidence of Joe Biden
doing any wrongdoing.
But that's -- but that's pretty
much all we can say about
that, that there's no evidence
of what the president
was just saying.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All
right, Yamiche Alcindor,
as always, thank you.