HARI SREENIVASAN: New research
finds class matters a lot
less in America when it comes
to economic mobility
for black males.
Income inequality is often
cited as an important
factor in holding people
back, but a new analysis
suggests black boys and black
men face economic disadvantages
even if they start off from
a similar point of income
and wealth as their
white counterparts.
Yamiche Alcindor is back
with our conversation.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: A new
study released this week
underscores just how big
a gap African-American
males face when it comes to
moving up the economic ladder.
Some of the findings
are dramatic.
White boys who grew up
in rich households are
likely to remain that way.
Black boys who are also raised
at the top are more likely
to become poor, instead of
staying wealthy in their
own adult households.
Black boys fare worse than
white boys in 99 percent of
America, even when children grow
up next to each other,
with parents who
earn similar incomes.
Raj Chetty of Stanford
University is one of the
co-authors of this study.
He joins me now.
Thank you so much,
Raj, for being here.
This report seems to indicate
that black men will fare worse
than white men even if they
are raised in households
with similar incomes.
Can you explain what's
happening there?
RAJ CHETTY, Professor of
Economics, Stanford University:
Yes, so one of the most striking
findings of the study to us
was that, even if you take
black and white boys raised in
families at exactly the
same income level, even
at high income levels,
you see that black
boys end up with very
different outcomes on average
relative to white men.
They're less likely to
complete high school.
They're less likely to go to
college, to have significantly
lower earnings in adulthood.
And that phenomenon,
interestingly, applies
really only to black men.
When we look at black vs.
white women, but see much more
similarity in their outcomes
if they grew up in families
of similar incomes.
So it's something unique to
what's happening to black men in
America that I think is really
a concern for generations
going forward in terms of
perpetuating inequality by race.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: And
that inequality is
really striking to me.
One of the things the study
reports is that African-American
men who grow up in households
with two parents that are
earning $140,000, they fare
about the same as a white young
man who is raised by a single
mother making just $60,000.
How can that be true, because
it feels so counterintuitive?
And what does that mean
for African-American
families and their futures?
RAJ CHETTY: Yes, what you're
getting at really is the finding
that there's a great deal of
downward mobility
in black families.
So, you would have
thought intuitively --
that is what we expected
going in -- is, when you
get to a certain income level,
maybe racial disparities
disappear, that at some point
kind of escape the poverty trap.
But that really doesn't
seem to be the case.
Even once your parents reach a
high income level, it continues
to be the case that black
men have higher odds
of essentially ending
up in the bottom of
the income distribution
than staying at the top of
the income distribution.
And that's why you get
this pattern that black
men's outcomes look
comparable to white men
growing up in relatively low-
or middle-income families.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: You mentioned
in the study that there are
unique obstacles that black
men face.
Are we -- just to be
clear, are we talking about
racism and racial bias?
And what are those unique
obstacles that black
men in particular face?
RAJ CHETTY: Yes.
So, to try to get at that,
we look at how this varies
across different parts of the
country, so look neighborhood by
neighborhood, and ask, are there
some neighborhoods in America
where you see small black-white
gaps, or perhaps black men
doing better than white men?
And, surprisingly, you find
essentially no such areas.
In 99 percent of neighborhoods
in America, you see better
outcomes for white men than
black men.
Now, digging in deeper, you can
ask, where do we see relatively
good outcomes for black
men?
And there are a couple
of factors that pop
out from that analysis.
One, you see that areas with
larger rates of father presence
in homes among black men,
you have better outcomes
for black boys there.
So, if there are more two-parent
families, particularly among
African-American households,
you see better outcomes
for black boys.
And, second, you see that areas
with lower levels of racial
bias among whites tend to
have outcomes for black men.
So those are a couple of factor
that I think could be associated
with these better outcomes.
But I think more remains to be
understood in terms of exactly
what's driving these really
sharp differences.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Gotcha.
And I want to talk about
the differences between
black women and black men.
There are some critiques out
there, critics of the study
out there that are arguing that
black women who don't have
long-term incomes weren't
counted in your study.
Is that accurate?
And could you talk a little
bit about your findings of
black women and the data that
you used?
RAJ CHETTY: Yes, so
we include everyone.
So, the power of the study
is that we're able to track,
using anonymized data, about 20
million Americans from birth
to adulthood, people born in
the early 1980s whose incomes
we're looking at,
in their late 30s.
And that includes everyone,
whether you're working or not.
Every single person is counted.
And so, if you're not working,
you're assigned an income of
zero and you're counted in the
study.
And what we show is that,
even taking that into account,
black women, conditional on
growing up in a family that
is at the same income level as
white women, they end up with
very similar outcomes.
They have similar levels
of earnings, similar
wage rates, similar
college attendance rates.
They work at similar rates.
So, it's really remarkable how,
for women, you don't see that
much of a black-white disparity.
Very starkly different from men.
Now, I should emphasize that
doesn't mean that women are
living in households with the
same income levels, because
black women tend to be married
to men who are black who have
lower incomes.
And they also are
married at lower rates.
And so if you look at household
income, of course, you do
see a significant disparity
between black women
and white women.
But when you look at
their own earnings,
they look very similar.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: And then I
guess I have one quick question,
which is, tell me a little
bit about the solutions here.
You mention in the study
that mentoring might
be a possibility, that
there might be some
policy changes.
What do you have to say
about how this could change?
RAJ CHETTY: Yes.
So, in thinking about
the solutions, I think
it's very important to
remember that you continue
to see these disparities
even among kids growing
up on the same street,
going to the same schools,
and so on.
And so, often, solutions
people think of are things
like, we need to create
greater opportunities
for black and white kids to grow
up in the same neighborhoods,
to attend the same schools
and so forth, to reduce
residential or physical
segregation in America.
And while I think that
can be extremely valuable,
what this study shows
is, you need to do more
than that.
Even among kids growing up
in the same area, you need to
create the same opportunities
for black men to thrive
as you see for white men.
That could involve things like
mentoring programs, for example,
like the My Brother's Keeper
Program, targeted at
low-income men to give
them pathways to success.
It could involve efforts to
try to reduce racial bias.
It could involve efforts to
try to create more racial
integration within schools and
within neighborhoods, so
black and white kids have
similar opportunities.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Thank you
so much, Raj, for joining me.
I really appreciate it.
RAJ CHETTY: My pleasure.
Thank you.