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>> Sreenivasan: CAROLINE CHEN,

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WHO COVERS PUBLIC HEALTH FOR

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"PROPUBLICA," JOINED ME FOR

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MORE ABOUT THE CONTINUING

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COVID-19 RISK AND VACCINE RATES

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AROUND THE WORLD.

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CAROLINE, ONE OF THE REASONS WE

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ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IS

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NEW DATA THAT'S COME OUT THAT

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SHOWS HOW SIGNIFICANT COVID IS

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AS A CAUSE OF DEATH, ESPECIALLY

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IN PEOPLE THAT ARE 35-54.

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>> NEW DATA THAT HAS COME OUT

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ANALYZING THAT, SORT OF, BURDEN

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OF MORTALITY HAS SHOWN THAT FOR

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35-54, AT SOME POINT, SOME

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MONTHS IN THIS PAST PANDEMIC,

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COVID HAS BEEN THE NUMBER ONE

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CAUSE OF DEATH.

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>> Sreenivasan: YOU KNOW,

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BECAUSE MOST OF THE TIME, OR AT

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LEAST EARLY ON, WE WERE WORRIED

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ABOUT THE ELDERLY, WE WERE

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WORRIED ABOUT THE AUTO IMMUNE

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SUPPRESSED.

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IS THIS POPULATION, SAY FOR

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EXAMPLE, IN SEPTEMBER, THE 35-54

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YEAR OLDS, ARE THE BULK OF THESE

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PEOPLE DYING BECAUSE THEY ARE

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UNVACCINATED?

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>> I WOULD SAY THE BULK OF THESE

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PEOPLE WHO ARE DYING ARE

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DEFINITELY UNVACCINATED.

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AND I THINK WE HAVE THIS ADDED

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FACTOR OF THE DELTA VARIANT, AND

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WE'RE, SORT OF, SEEING THE

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IMPACT HERE BECAUSE IT IS SO

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MUCH MORE INFECTIOUS.

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>> Sreenivasan: THE POPULATION

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OF CONCERN FOR MILLIONS OF

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AMERICANS RIGHT NOW ARE THEIR

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SCHOOLCHILDREN THAT ARE IN SOME

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WAY SHAPE OR FORM BACK IN FULL

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TIME SCHOOL, PART TIME SCHOOL,

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MAYBE SOME ARE IN ZOOM SCHOOL

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CLASSES WHEN THOSE RECOMMENDED

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DOSES OF VACCINES WILL BE

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AVAILABLE TO CHILDREN.

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>> YEAH, AND HARI, AS WE'VE

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TALKED ABOUT A COUPLE OF TIMES

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NOW, THE REASON WHY IT'S TAKEN

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SO LONG IS BECAUSE CHILDREN MAY

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BE GETTING A DIFFERENT DOSE,

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PARTICULARLY THE REALLY YOUNG

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CHILDREN.

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AND SO, YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH A

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RIGOROUS PROCESS TO ASSESS WHAT

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IS, WHAT THEY CALL THE

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"GOLDILOCKS DOSE."

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YOU KNOW, SMALL, SMALLER, SO

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IT'LL BE SAFER AND HAVE FEWER

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REACTIONS, BUT A BIG ENOUGH DOSE

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THAT IT WILL BE EFFECTIVE.

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SO, WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW IS

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THAT PFIZER HAS SUBMITTED DATA

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TO THE F.D.A. FOR 5-11 YEAR

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OLDS, AND I AM HOPEFUL TO SEE

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THE 5-11s HAVE AN OPTION FOR

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VACCINE BY THE END OF THIS YEAR.

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>> Sreenivasan: WHILE AMERICANS,

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SOME AMERICANS, STILL HESITATE

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ON TAKING A VACCINE THAT HAS

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BEEN AVAILABLE FOR MONTHS AND

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MONTHS, WE STILL SEE A LARGE

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SCALE DISPARITY ON OTHER PARTS

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OF THE PLANET, OTHER COUNTRIES

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THAT DON'T HAVE EITHER ACCESS OR

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THE ABILITY TO DEPLOY THESE

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VACCINES VERY QUICKLY.

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AND SO, THERE'S THIS SORT OF

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ETHICAL DILEMMA THAT'S ALSO

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PRESENTING ITSELF TO AMERICANS.

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SHOULD WE BE GETTING A THIRD

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SHOT OR A BOOSTER SHOT BEFORE

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MILLIONS OF PEOPLE EVEN GET

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THEIR FIRST?

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>> YEAH, I SO APPRECIATE YOU

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BRINGING THIS UP, BECAUSE I

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THINK SO MANY PEOPLE DON'T EVEN

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REALIZE THAT THERE ARE COUNTRIES

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THAT ARE WAITING FOR THEIR FIRST

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SHOTS STILL.

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AND I THINK IT'S REALLY

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IMPORTANT FOR US TO BE THINKING

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ABOUT THE IMPACT OF BOOSTERS,

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ESPECIALLY OVER THE LONG TERM,

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BUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE

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HOSPITAL TODAY, WHO ARE BEING

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HOSPITALIZED, PEOPLE WHO ARE

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DYING, ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T

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EVEN GOTTEN THEIR FIRST SHOT,

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WHETHER THIS IS IN THE U.S. OR

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OUTSIDE OF THE U.S.

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AND SO, I THINK THIS IS A REALLY

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IMPORTANT QUESTION FOR EVERY

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GOVERNMENT TO BE GRAPPLING WITH.

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AND, YOU KNOW, THE CONSORTIUM

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CALLED COVAX, WHICH IS THE

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W.H.O., CEPI, GAVI, A NUMBER OF

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DIFFERENT ALLIANCES TOGETHER,

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ARE ASKING COUNTRIES TO

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BASICALLY GIVE UP THEIR SPOT IN

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THE MANUFACTURING PRODUCTION AND

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SWAP.

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SO, SAY YOU'RE A WEALTHY NATION,

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YOU HAVE A SHIPMENT OF MODERNA

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VACCINE COMING YOUR WAY, BUT YOU

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HAVE ABUNDANCE ALREADY.

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CAN YOU SWAP YOUR SCHEDULE SLOT

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WITH A COUNTRY THAT'S BEEN

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WAITING FOR THEIR FIRST DOSES?

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SO, I DO THINK THIS IS A VERY

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HIGH LEVEL DISCUSSION, AND I

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DON'T KNOW AT THIS POINT THAT IF

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YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN,

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SORT OF, REFUSE YOUR BOOSTER, AT

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THAT POINT, THE SHIPMENT MIGHT

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HAVE ALREADY BEEN MADE TO YOUR

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LOCAL PHARMACY, RIGHT.

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SO, THAT'S VERY HARD TO UNWIND.

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BUT AT THIS MACRO LEVEL, I DO

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THINK GLOBAL LEADERS NEED TO BE

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REALLY THINKING SERIOUSLY ABOUT

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THIS PICTURE AND THINKING ABOUT

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OTHER COUNTRIES.

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>> Sreenivasan: "PROPUBLICA'S"

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CAROLINE CHEN, THANKS SO MUCH.

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>> THANK YOU.